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Hey, guys. There seems to be confusion about Liza Dalby, with this myth that she was once a geisha. Certainly she spent time with geisha, as indeed Lesley Downer did when she wrote her own book on the geisha world. However there is no evidence to suggest she was a geisha in any sense of the word.
To say she was a "novice" is to indicate that she was a trainee. To say that she was a trainee is to imply she was taking the lessons young Japanese women do in becoming maiko and then geisha. But she did not do that, as she admits - so we cannot refer to her as a "novice geisha". Being a geisha is a lot more than wearing white makeup and having a cute name. If someone wishes to re-write this article more fully, then by all means talk about how she was engaged in the geisha world - and that she accompanied some geisha during their engagements for a year.
But a geisha has to go through years of training as a maiko first - and you cannot become a maiko overnight.
Regards, John Smith's 01:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
A woman can debut as a full-geisha without going through the maiko period, as stated in Dalby's Geisha and Leslie Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters (The geiko Kikuryuu had attended college and in her 20's was too old to be a maiko).
True, Dalby was never an official geisha, but it doesn't discredit her research or experience. Claw789 04:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
To save duplication, more discussion on the content of this article can be found at Talk:Fiona Graham, since the two topics are closely related and one editor is tendentiously editing both articles. Cheers Your Lord and Master ( talk) 01:05, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
As Graham and her IP socks are so obsessed with what this talk page says, I thought I'd point out three quotes from a reliable source which is already cited which show that Dalby was the first foreign geisha (empahsis mine):
1) American anthropologist Liza Dalby is famous for being the first Western woman to have ever trained as a geisha.
2) Because of her age, Dalby couldn’t make the conventional debut as a maiko - “Most geisha in Kyoto start out as maiko at 17. I was 24” - but it was agreed that she could instead debut as a full geisha.
3) Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.
I hope that clears things up! Regards Your Lord and Master ( talk) 04:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to join a geisha community in Kyoto. Since she was past the regular apprentice age of 17, and due to her skill on the shamisen, she was allowed to debut as a full geisha under the name Ichigiku.
During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to attend geisha parties in Kyoto and play the shamisen.
Dalby never planned to become a geisha herself, but during the course of her research was eventually invited to join a small geisha community in Kyoto, where the geisha tradition is sometimes said to have originated.
Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.
Guys, could I please get your input on the above questions? It would be helpful to know why you believe Hyslop is a reliable source on this matter (it's her article after all), in conjunction with my earlier point that the phrase "debut as a full geisha" is packed between quotations from Dalby's book and/or an interview with her. And Bbb23, why don't you feel that the Bardsley article explains why Dalby was not a geisha? John Smith's ( talk) 10:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Although I appreciate the recent work that has gone into the article, we still have a problem with sources being used to support things they do not refer to. E.g. the article "Lady-in-Waiting" does not refer to a debut. It says "taking the name Ichigiku, she became the first and only non-Japanese to train as a geisha".
I also thought that we agreed that Bardsley does not express her own view that Dalby was a geisha, so should not be used as a source to support this. From now on, I suggest that the Bardsley citations included page references and that any links are to that page. I'm not sure what on page 4 is useful for the point it's currently cited against.
I don't mind discussing this a little later, but I wanted to flag it up now before I forgot it. John Smith's ( talk) 17:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
A lot of it (the statements about kimono, biographical/oversimplified descriptions of Murasaki Shikibu as "a poet", etc.) is just trivial material that might itself be attributed to this author, but doesn't belong in a biographical article about her in an encyclopedia. If the statement about 11th-century court ladies writing descriptions about kimono is accurate, it should be added to one of those articles, not this one. But fo the love of god, please don't mention Salon.com inline in the Murasaki Shikibu article! :P Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 17:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph of Liza Dalby be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Hey, guys. There seems to be confusion about Liza Dalby, with this myth that she was once a geisha. Certainly she spent time with geisha, as indeed Lesley Downer did when she wrote her own book on the geisha world. However there is no evidence to suggest she was a geisha in any sense of the word.
To say she was a "novice" is to indicate that she was a trainee. To say that she was a trainee is to imply she was taking the lessons young Japanese women do in becoming maiko and then geisha. But she did not do that, as she admits - so we cannot refer to her as a "novice geisha". Being a geisha is a lot more than wearing white makeup and having a cute name. If someone wishes to re-write this article more fully, then by all means talk about how she was engaged in the geisha world - and that she accompanied some geisha during their engagements for a year.
But a geisha has to go through years of training as a maiko first - and you cannot become a maiko overnight.
Regards, John Smith's 01:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
A woman can debut as a full-geisha without going through the maiko period, as stated in Dalby's Geisha and Leslie Downer's Women of the Pleasure Quarters (The geiko Kikuryuu had attended college and in her 20's was too old to be a maiko).
True, Dalby was never an official geisha, but it doesn't discredit her research or experience. Claw789 04:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
To save duplication, more discussion on the content of this article can be found at Talk:Fiona Graham, since the two topics are closely related and one editor is tendentiously editing both articles. Cheers Your Lord and Master ( talk) 01:05, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
As Graham and her IP socks are so obsessed with what this talk page says, I thought I'd point out three quotes from a reliable source which is already cited which show that Dalby was the first foreign geisha (empahsis mine):
1) American anthropologist Liza Dalby is famous for being the first Western woman to have ever trained as a geisha.
2) Because of her age, Dalby couldn’t make the conventional debut as a maiko - “Most geisha in Kyoto start out as maiko at 17. I was 24” - but it was agreed that she could instead debut as a full geisha.
3) Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.
I hope that clears things up! Regards Your Lord and Master ( talk) 04:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to join a geisha community in Kyoto. Since she was past the regular apprentice age of 17, and due to her skill on the shamisen, she was allowed to debut as a full geisha under the name Ichigiku.
During her Ph.D studies on geisha, she was invited to attend geisha parties in Kyoto and play the shamisen.
Dalby never planned to become a geisha herself, but during the course of her research was eventually invited to join a small geisha community in Kyoto, where the geisha tradition is sometimes said to have originated.
Dalby finally made her debut in 1976, taking the geisha name Ichigiku, and soon earned a reputation as "the blue-eyed geisha” in the Japanese media.
Guys, could I please get your input on the above questions? It would be helpful to know why you believe Hyslop is a reliable source on this matter (it's her article after all), in conjunction with my earlier point that the phrase "debut as a full geisha" is packed between quotations from Dalby's book and/or an interview with her. And Bbb23, why don't you feel that the Bardsley article explains why Dalby was not a geisha? John Smith's ( talk) 10:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Although I appreciate the recent work that has gone into the article, we still have a problem with sources being used to support things they do not refer to. E.g. the article "Lady-in-Waiting" does not refer to a debut. It says "taking the name Ichigiku, she became the first and only non-Japanese to train as a geisha".
I also thought that we agreed that Bardsley does not express her own view that Dalby was a geisha, so should not be used as a source to support this. From now on, I suggest that the Bardsley citations included page references and that any links are to that page. I'm not sure what on page 4 is useful for the point it's currently cited against.
I don't mind discussing this a little later, but I wanted to flag it up now before I forgot it. John Smith's ( talk) 17:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
A lot of it (the statements about kimono, biographical/oversimplified descriptions of Murasaki Shikibu as "a poet", etc.) is just trivial material that might itself be attributed to this author, but doesn't belong in a biographical article about her in an encyclopedia. If the statement about 11th-century court ladies writing descriptions about kimono is accurate, it should be added to one of those articles, not this one. But fo the love of god, please don't mention Salon.com inline in the Murasaki Shikibu article! :P Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 17:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Liza Dalby. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)