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I can see one anonymous user disputing the accuracy of the page a month ago, saying that the page is 'inaccurate because it is incomplete', and then coming close to a personal attack on another user. I do not see anyone claiming that there are included theories that should not be there. I do not think this means there is an ongoing debate about the validity of the article. I am therefore removing the NPOV tag. If you wish to replace it, please feel free to do so, stating your reasons here on this talk page signed by writing ~~~~ after your comment.
Typo: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bognanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority. Should read: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bogdanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority.
Kosebamse claims that "Gene Ray refutes the scientific method itself". Kosebamse, please explain exactly how Dr Ray does that.
The aquatic ape hypothesis is not anywhere near as fringe as many of the other theories listed here. It is not generally accepted, sure, but it is no longer considered bunk. It has serious science behind it, and a growing number of biologists consider it seriously plausible. RK 00:58 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You waste my time, Reddi, forcing me to research things like that. That LANL link is just Anthony Lee Peratt's personal web space. As far as I could see, there's no mention of plasma cosmology on the official plasma physics group home page. I haven't looked up all those other institutions, but judging by the names they're all just plasma physics groups, not plasma cosmology. Now excuse me while I go and do something useful. -- Tim Starling 00:41 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
How does plasma cosomology deny one of the listed theories? If you read a little closer, you would have noticed that I anticipated this attack. I said that theories which deny one of the mainstream theories will be listed, I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway.
"That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream?" It's not subjective, because if worst comes to worst, we can take a poll. But luckily, we have a decent number of mainstream physicists and other scientists on Wikipedia, and those people have a fairly good idea of the attitude of their peers towards these theories. I'm relying on the input of experts.
Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy.
"there isn't 'some sort of mythology' attached to it, I believe that may be your POV". It's my intuition, nothing more. I've said I don't understand the "rotating magnetic field model", so I can't be sure what's going on. I'm hoping you'll just tell me, but otherwise I'll probably work it out eventually. But if you must know, my suspicions were twigged by statements like:
The last one is particularly interesting. The main thing I'm missing is: what is the model? Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model. You don't prove a phenomenon, so what is there to this "model" besides the simple existence of rotating magnetic fields? -- Tim Starling 08:57 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
--
Just want to say that I agree that Plasma cosmology should not be included among this list. It has been around since the late 1800's and has much experimental backing. It is only fringe because it is not the mainstream paradigm. But you two have already gone through all this so I don't need to add any more here. -- Ionized
My word... -- Tim Starling 08:03, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)
Thank you to all those responsible for re-wording the article. It is now much more acceptable, especially the comment that some currently accepted practices would have in the past been on this type of list. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 6:06 pm
I think Gene's ideas are theories in the looser sense, even if not in a strictly scientific sense. Don't know if this is relevant... Martin 23:39, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Moved from article:
Other
This is far too vague to be in that list. Details please, or leave out. Kosebamse 11:41, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What about Marxism, Lysenkoism, Lamarckism, Phlogiston, Calorific, Humors? -- -- Error 01:34, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This page has evolved considerably from its beginnings when it related to a short list of modern eccentric ideas. With the move of the list from the pseudoscience article it has come to include a lot of practices with a long and honorable tradition which the mainstream of modern sciences does not find acceptable. I have therefor moved it to a more NPOV title which excludes the pejorative term, "fringe". ☮ Eclecticology 10:30, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)
It hasn't evolved, it's just a whole stack of content moved in from Pseudoscience. This was intended as a list complementary to the one at pseudoscience -- in particular as a list of theories purporting to be scientific. I see two problems with the current name (List of alternative, speculative and disputed sciences):
My initial test for inclusion was the level of acceptance enjoyed from the mainstream community. By importing a large number of entries with a wide following, Reddi indeed made the article into something other than that given in the original title (List of speculative or fringe theories).
I suggest doing the following:
-- Tim Starling 12:49, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
---
I can accept the change in the title from "sciences" to "theories". I pondered that possibility myself and decided that "science" in some usages was a much broader term. It was "fringe" in the old title that I found unacceptable. I was, in fact, glad to see the list moved from pseudoscience because that term is a characterization which was never subjected to any kind of strict criteria. I argued for the splitting off more than a year ago. The proponents of some of these practices had never even made a claim that they were sciences in the first place. The inclusion of some seemed to have been on a whim that could be disputed by those who are more familiar with the field. These whims varied considerably from one persan to another. I have always maintained that "not proven to be scientific" is a very different concept from "proven to be not scientific", and that "pseudosciece" should refer only to the latter.
The present title allows for things to be included without any implication of ultimate judgement about their validity. I don't think that dividing this list into categories would help our cause. That would open up a whole new series of disputes about where somthing belongs. Alphabetical order is about as neutral as we can hope for. Some tightening up could happen, such as including all practices ending in "-mancy" under fortune telling. ☮ Eclecticology 18:21, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)
I've removed
The problem with this is that it has no believers. The term is a pejorative that was invented by opponents as a catch-all for what could be a wide range of practices. A minimum condition for incllusion on the list should be that there is somebody who does or has believed in it. Individual practices contemplated by this term should have their own entries. ☮ Eclecticology 00:15, 2004 Feb 15 (UTC)
The characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a Pseudoscience is based on the self-characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a science: for example, "The open abandonment by the Soviet revisionists of the scientific Marxist-Leninist concept of socialism comes out clearly, also, when they proclaim the development of the productive forces as the only decisive factor of its construction." and "The frontal attack of Soviet revisionism on the fundamental questions of Marxism-Leninism could not leave the theory and practice of scientific socialism untouched." [2] Fred Bauder 05:57, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
Marxism itself should not be listed here for a number of reasons. Marxism incorporates a wide range of theories in economics, politics, history, and philosophy. Marx's theory of dialectical materialism is simply the imperative to look at historical events in the context of social class and availability of resources; this can hardly be said to be discredited. Despite a number of competing theories, Marx's understanding of the cause of inflation has not, to my knowledge, been falsified. Finally, there has not yet been a society operating on purely Marxian principles, since Marx envisaged a system free of government. All existing so-called "communist" governments have been Marxist-Leninist (or some variant thereof), which are actually (by Lenin's own admission numerous times in his writings) simply a form of state capitalism. Their recent collapse is evidence that Lenin's state capitalism is not the correct road to a Marxian society, not that a Marxian society itself is impossible. — Psychonaut 10:11, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Accupuncture is not pseudoscience. If you look at the article on accupuncture, it is quite clear. The traditional theory behind accupuncture would probably fit the definition of pseudoscience, but I'm sure there is a scientific theory that would at least put it in the realm of protoscience. You probably have to divide a lot of the the topics here in half. Ezra Wax 17:05, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Please see the moved VfD discussion at Talk:List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories/Delete which includes suggestions to retitle this page.
Maybe it would help this page if theories were not listed alphabetically but were grouped by areas of knowledge to which they (purport to) belong. Also, the (necessarily brief) description of each theory should attempt to indicate what the theory is alternative to, why it is considered to be speculative, and why is it disputed.
Anyway, this page is a can or worms. Psychoanalysis is not listed despite the fact that a substantial number of critics say it is pseudoscientific and nonfalsifiable. String theory is speculative since it has made no contact with experiment. Evolution is disputed.
Miguel 17:19, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)
I have carried out a (necessarily imperfect) preliminary classification. This has forced me to read the entries carefully, and a substantial number of the descriptions is highly non-NPOV and utterly uninformative. The introduction to the page is also atrocious, by the way. Miguel 20:22, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
Some of the things listed here are not properly theories either. It can be argued that evolution is more a paradigm than a theory, for instance, and Darwinism is not the only evolutionary theory of biology and is more properly described by natural selection. I have beefs with the description of Hidden Variable "theories", too. This is just the beginning, of course.
It would be great if we could write a new introduction from scratch. Miguel 20:55, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation.
How can be a capitalism a "pseudoscience?" It does not puport to be a science at all, but only a philosophy of economics. It is not even a system per se, as capitalism can evolve in many different vectors, and still be capitalistic, as the make-up of the businesses will vary from culture to culture and year to year in its specificities. As it is not a science, it also does not make the utopian claim of perfectibility, as in Marxism. Few people do indeed feel that capitalism is somehow not acceptable, but history has shown us it is the best economic philosophy currently available to us. Capitalism is not a fringe philosophy. The small numbers of people who are anti-capitalist, on the other hand, are.
MSTCrow 02:38, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
Aren't all theories, by definition, speculative?
MSTCrow 03:20, May 31, 2004 (UTC)
I have restored "Bell Curve" as it fits the definition. Profoundly questionable science, supported by some, disputed by many more. Cold fusion had data too. (BTW, your removal edit certainly wasn't discussed on the talk page ...) - David Gerard 23:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is certainly not the "core theory" of the "Bell Curve," that "the differences in IQ between black and white Americans is genetically determined." This subject is covered in 46 out of 846 pages in chapter 13, and is irrelevant to the real "core theory."
Which is that, in the 20th century, the United States became much more socially and economically stratified by cognitive ability. That the smartest people have increasingly risen to the top. less hindered by class, race and gender distinctions. That there are some undesirable consequences to this societal change, to this creation of a cognitive elite. That people not cognitively favored have an increasingly difficult time dealing with life in the land of the smart rulers.
I considered this to be an important and most novel insight.
Bob Unferth
I would like to suggest that the "dangers" of DDT be included in the list. The entry for DDT itself makes mention of this, and Rachel Caron has never been recognized as a legitimate voice in the scientific community. This article, [3], by Roger Bate, makes note of this, and also of the millions of lives lost who would have otherwise been saved had DDT been available to protect against malaria spreading mosquitoes. He is by no means the first person to point this out either, and many health and evironmental organizations believe that the risk from DDT to animal life is minimal. As the premise for banning DTT is in itself questionable, and the millions of lives lost on a yearly basis in underdeveloped regions such as Africa due to the ban, I believe that this is a topic which warrants inclusion in the list.
MSTCrow 23:21, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)
I have removed Ayn Rand's objectivism because that is is a school of philosophy and all schools of philosophies are disputed. I mean, then we could as well include all other schools of philosophy and all religious movements. Kind regards. Andries 21:18, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I do not believe that evolution shoud be on the list. It is absolutely not an alternative, speculative or disputed theory. The groups who dispute evolutionary theory are on the same level as people who dispute relativity theory or quantum mechanics. I will start to figure out how to remove the Evolution entry from the list
I just checked, and I found that a few days ago somebody replaced creationism with evolution. The same IP put in objectivism (later removed). I put creationism back in, but is there a way to stop this person from doing it again? -- Frank.visser 23:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Since when is it not speculative nor disputed? Why do you think there is constant friction about evolution being indoctrinated in public schools?
When I went to college, the biology text used in class was written by George Gaylord Simpson in which he clearly, with several examples, indicated that the difference between a scientific theory and one that is not scientific is that the scientific theory was based on observation, where the observation is repeatable. Did Dr. Simpson know the definition of science? Has the definition for science changed since then?
Then look at Dr. Simpson's description of evolution: it is based on inobservable presuppositions. All the "evidences" for evolution, such as the interpretations of fossiles, radiomedric dating and so forth, are equally based on inobservable presuppositions. If observation is the test for science verses non-science, as above, how is evolution scientific? Or do you claim that Dr. Simpson didn't understand what science is?
Or to use Popper's concept of falsifyability: what would it take to falsify evolution? Historical artifacts? Records? What sort of observations would falsify evolution when it is not based on observation?
This is not a defense of creationism, as it is equally based on inobservable presuppositions.
Therefore, both theories are equally not scinece, according to Dr. Simpson's definition above.
Therefore, it is POV to include one theory as disputed and the other not.
Melamed 04:52, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid you cannot attack the sacred cows. Fallibilism is disliked because it categorises many well loved-theories as questionable science; it imposes an extremely strict criterion. Hence we revert back to the days before the dawn of empirical science, and rely entirely on the word of academic authorities. However, if two theories fail because neither is in principle falsifiable, it is reasonable to select the one that has the greater amount of corroborative evidence, if we must make a choice between them. Gordon Vigurs 12:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
CBS News carried an article at: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml showing that the claim that evolution is not controversial is a very parochial view. In fact as this article shows, it is only a small minority who are true believers in evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of whom are in government employ and the majority of those in government schools. Therefore, not to include it as a disputed theory is POV as it is a viewpoint taught by a small minority.
According to the poll numbers, it is the naturalistic evolutionists who are the smallest minority, followed by the theistic evolutionists, with an absolute majority who are creationists. Censorship and discrimination as practiced now may prevent creationists from getting degrees, or if perchance they succeed in obtaining an advanced degree in science, not getting an education position nor publication of their articles, but such efforts are perceived by the majority that evolution does not have a scientific or intellectual basis that can survive an open debate. Hence it is percieved as a speculative and disputed theory.
Melamed 23 Nov 2004
US-centered bias anyone? — Miguel 07:59, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 12:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)) My understanding was that the phrase "alternative, speculative or disputed" referred to the status of theories with respect to science and/or their appropriate professional community. Not wrt the general public.
I think George Gaylord Simpson says it all.
Bobby1011
19:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I hope there is some speculative element left in evolution, otherwise we should sack all the biologists as redundant! It is absurd to claim that observations not yet made cannot in any way refine it. Gordon Vigurs 14:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"Brainwashing theory says that a person can have his belief system and basic values changed involuntarily by the use of social pressure e.g. in cults"
Was the author of this implying that cults do not change people's belief systems or basic values? It contradicts with observations, even superficial ones.
It's not a theory but a set of methods that can be used to change human being's belief system and basic values. The mechanisms used in the process are not unique to brainwashing, but normal, and can be researched under a number of psychological models. Basically, it's abuse of the same mechanisms that govern the learning and adjustment of a child, in an adult person. Cults are not unique in using them.
Melamed, please stop unilaterally adding evolution to the list. Clearly there's been some controversy over its inclusion, so it would be better to try to make your case here and gain the support of other editors of this page before making your changes. For the record, I do not believe that evolution is not a science. It may seem difficult to falsify, though there are a variety of methods which have gained wide acceptance in the biological community. I suggest you read through the talk.origins FAQs if you have not already done so; if you have a novel argument which has not yet been addressed there or here, then perhaps you can defend it here and we will be swayed. Psychonaut 21:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Melamed hi. Please read carefully the beginning of the page. It states that inclusion in this page has to do first and foremost with being accepted academically. Evolution is universally accepted inside the academia. Ask any biologist. Opposition to evolution comes from outside the academy. This is not about how to define science. Just a poll.
Gady 20:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First of all, the beginning of the page doesn't even have the word "accademically" in it, nor any referrence thereto. However, it does state Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation. which is an almost perfect description of evolution except that evolution never conformed to the scientific method.
Melamed 05:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By the way, if you add acedemically to the top of the article, that is almost a shouted admission that the following article is full of NPOV violations. It is widely recognized that acedemia as a whole is anything but NPOV.
Actually, it may be better for you to start out with the claim that this article makes no pretence of NPOV. 1) it is intellectually more honest, than to pretend NPOV while writing POV 2) People like myself will be less inclined to edit the page, as it will be an honest POV entry
Melamed 05:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Gady: True, I just skimmed the definition of NPOV vs. POV, but in skimming it I noticed nothing with which I would disagree. But nowhere did I notice that Wikipedia articles should be limited to academia's standards. It is not without reason that academia is often called the "ivory tower", not only because academics are often out of touch with the rest of the world, but also because they are usually surrounded by people of like mind, that they often do not recognize their own biases, illogic and limitations. If I had noticed that Wikipedia limits its definition of NPOV to how academia defines it, I would have treated Wikipedia articles the same as I treat other academic sources: sometimes useful, but use with caution because of POV.
I'll remind you of the academic a few years ago, who deliberately wrote a piece that was nonsense to illustrate the absurdity of the peer review process. Because he is such a big name in his field (sorry, I don't remember his name right now) the article got published. He finally had to come out publicly announce what he had done.
Incidently, I noticed that none of you responded to my mention above why evolution is a disputed and speculative theory. While I mentioned Dr. Simpson, others have published the same ideas so this concept is not original with me. I see three options from the above, either 1) Dr. Simpson was a fool who didn't know what he was talking about when he described what is science (hard to back up, as I checked several textbooks and none gave a contradictory description), 2) the definition of science has changed since I checked, making any claim that a particular theory is or is not scientific a time based, subjective assertion and not an objective standard; if this view is adopted, then there can be no pathological science as there is no objective standard as to what is good science, or 3) evolution is not, never has been and never can be, a scientific theory. Sadly, to me at least, under the politically correct pressure to declare evolution a scientific theory, it looks as if option #2 is being pursued.
Finally, upon sleeping on the question, there is a way legitimately to write a POV article in a NPOV manner, and that is to include a disclaimer at the very beginning that the article is a report on how a particular group perceives the issues. Then the inclusion or exclusion of any particular statement will not be considered POV on the part of Wikipedia, rather POV on the part of portrayed group. I have added such a disclaimer.
Melamed 17:05, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that William M. Connolley made a change, with the claim "in academia" was there already. but a check of previous versions shows that that is a lie. What does he take us for, . . . fools?
Melamed 17:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
===[[Welbesology]]=== Is the study of rumored or mythological teachers that are presumed by many to exist, but for which proof does not yet exist. In mythology, they would teach Anthropology, Social Sciences or Theories of Knowledge. Illustrates the fact that truth is never certain, since misinformation is common.
This was contributed by a certain mr. 4 numbers and this is his only contribution. Partly copied from the cryptozoology description. Google gives nothing.
Also, I have some additional suggestions for removal:
There was no reply so I'm doing it. Gadykozma 13:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Better late than never. Can you give some references to this? I kind of know this theory is currently not at its highest in popularity, but that's a far cry from actually being fringe. Gadykozma 19:33, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC) Andries, sorry for removing brainwashing without discussion, it got carried away by the inertia of the removal of the other psychology stuff. If you want, lets discuss it now. Gadykozma 18:29, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've added the Biophotons to the list. It seems to a mostly German contribution to this corpus, but I've just checked the articles made it to the english Wikipedia and some little edit struggles are seen. The finer points of classifying as proto- or pseudoscience I've left open so far. One point of possible confusion: Biophotonics exist and is rather legitimate but boring and sometimes hyped to get the funding. It has no connections per se with Biophotons, but the Biophotonists are sometimes trying to take over the term and the article. Pjacobi 08:38, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Dear User:66.81.121.107, the theory of evolution is a mainstream scientific theory, which has been the subject of widespread testing, including the observation of predicted, but not previously observed, species in the fossil record, DNA evidence, and the direct observation of evolution in the environment and the laboratory. Calling other people "Ignoramii and illogics" is unlikely to advance the acceptance of your arguments here: we have a policy that contributors are expected to be polite to one another, and refrain from personal attacks. You might also want to note the Wikipedia:three revert rule. -- The Anome 03:03, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Have re-inserted this, which was briefly in the article.
I agree that aether was never experimentally proven, but I understand that many scientists agreed it was a strong if untested hypothesis before experimental proof became available. If anyone can demonstrate otherwise I'll stop objecting and use something else (e.g. creationism) as the example of a previously mainstream thought now regarded as nonsense. The Land 19:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 21:15, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)) With the new wording, I guess its OK, ish. Mainstream is more accurate than sound.
Does Catastrophism really deserve to be listed as a Pseudo-science since it is potentially verifiable/falsifiable.
I have removed most of the additions made by 172.130.213.107 as shown in this diff. There were a few problems. The user changed the introduction to note that theories without experimental evidence were listed. S/he then listed philosophical topics such as interpretation of quantum mechanics, that are perfectly valid fields of inquiry depsite having no experimental grounding. S/he then went on to express a common misconception by adding force carrier. I know, some people like to deny the existence of quarks or electrons or the far side of the moon because we can't "see" them. But force carriers are part of quantum electrodynamics, what some popular science authors call the best-tested physical theory in existence. There is ample evidence.
A few other theories were added on the basis that the experimental evidence supporting them is insufficient. I don't think it's a particularly helpful redefinition of this list to add random elements of mainstream scientific theories just because some arbitrarily high standard of evidence set by the author hasn't been reached. We can certainly distinguish between popular theories and fringe theories in an NPOV way, and I think such a categorisation is useful to our readers. -- Tim Starling 06:32, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
How can "many in the "mainstream" scientific community consider to be "fringe" or pseudoscientific" be allowed in a NPOV article? -Anon
The article is disputed on it's accuracy because these are not included:
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 22 June 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with Anon and agree with Fastfission. The theories mentioned are all based on observations. Most of them are attempts to draw together observations on the microscopic and macroscopic levels. They are all rapidly evolving as further experimental evidence comes to light. They do not qualify as 'alternative or speculative'. In a hundred year's time observations may have conclusively discounted the superstring model; in which case, if it stil lhas adherents, it should be listed here. The Land 15:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Fastfission and disagree with Anon. At the current time none of the above fit within the scope of the page. While there are disputes about the hypothesises lists, none are thoroughly discredited by empirical evidence or nonsensical in light of established empirically proven scientific theories. Ohwilleke 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to tell why the poster believes that this should be added from the post. Also, this page applies to matters that purport to be scientific theories. Events within the scope of written history generally wouldn't be a scientific theory. Linquistics might be, but without knowing what claims made in Macedonian linguistics are involved (certainly not the existence of subjects, objects and verbs, and probably something to do with the origins of the language, one would presume), it is hard to determine if it fits. Ohwilleke 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the name of this page attracts a lot of confusion over what should be included in it. I think if we drop "speculative" it would be a lot more to the point. I'd almost consider replacing "alternative" with "non-mainstream". The point is, these are theories which are not accepted by the mainstream scientific community or considered by said community to be outside the bounds of scientific inquiry or scientific practice; the name should reflect this a bit more clearly, as at the moment it lends itself to a lot of ambiguity such as that from our anon friend here who doesn't seem to get the point. -- Fastfission 19:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How about calling it: List of fringe theories? -- brian0918 ™ 15:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed Mirror Matter for the following reason. One could argue that it is a fringe theory because only a limited number of physicists work on it (about 20). So, it fits the definition given in the introduction in this respect. It is not, however a crackpot theory, because you can publish articles on it in, say, Phys. Rev. D. See the reference list of the article mirror matter
My objection against inclusing mirror matter in the list of alternative theories is that it is the only non-crackpot theory in the list. So, it has been singled out for some reason. It is not the only non-crackpot theory that fits the criteria, though. I could write down a big list of non-crackpot theories that can also be included.
I.m.o., until such a comprehensive list of non-crackpot theories on which a limited number of physicists work on is compiled, it is not correct to include just one non-crackpot theory in the list.
Count Iblis 12:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed point 5 (adhered to by a limited group), and removed the three remaining non-crackpot physics theories that fall in this category. As in case of mirror matter, it is not fair to single out a few theories. Also it is extremely insulting for professional physicists working on these theories to find out (e.g. after a google search) that their theory appears on a list consisting almost exclusively of crackpot theories like intelligent design.
Count Iblis 22:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure why acupuncure is present in this list of "disputed" theories. Acupuncture has been proven to heal with some scientific theories formulated to explain the recorded effects, definately placing this technique into the realm of the plausible. From the American Medical Association's website: "Most often, acupuncture is used for acute or chronic pain relief, but some proponents also use it for smoking cessation and substance abuse treatment, asthma, arthritis, and other conditions. Endorphin release, stimulation of the peripheral nervous system, and pain mediation through the effects of other neuropeptides are currently thought to be the most likely conventional explanations for the effects of acupuncture." Thoughts?
We want a list of pseudoscientific theories. But alternative, speculative and/or disputed theories are not necessarily pseudoscientific. In fact, if a theory is indeed pseudoscientific it will usually be ignored by the scientific community. So, the term disputed certainly doesn't apply to pseudoscientific theories. In case of a pseudoscientific theory it's more of a case closed, period situation.
Legitimate science is full of lively debate. There are a lot of mainstream respectable alternative, speculative and disputed theories that respectable scientists are working on. These theories have nothing to do with pseudoscience.
Scientists will regard a theory as pseudoscientific if the theory cannot be true given what is known, not if they believe it isn't true. That's a very important distinction. Pseudoscientists will have you believe otherwise and will claim that their theory is rejected just because it isn't the scientist's favorite theory. We must therefore not play into the pseudoscientist's hands by listing theories here that are part of legitimate science.
Count Iblis
00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Count Iblis 13:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
"Should we change the title?" Yes, because the title means something different than what the 4 listed criteria mean. Others have made the same point that what is disputed is much vaster than this list. This list is pretty much NOT disputed by most, except the particular believers. (That's rephasing what you say in the first paragraph.) What to change it to, I don't know.
Count Iblis says: "I could write down a big list of non-crackpot theories that can also be included. I.m.o., until such a comprehensive list of non-crackpot theories on which a limited number of physicists work on is compiled, ..." Such a list would be very interesting. Most likely place from which new facts/theories to arise. I encourage you to do it if you're up for it. GangofOne 05:56, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
GangofOne, perhaps this should be a 'list of pseudoscientific theories'? About the list of non-crackpot theories, I have thought about that a bit more but that wouldn't be practical. I would guess that at least a few percent, perhaps more, of all published theories/ideas would qualify to be on that list. To give you just a few examples taken from the things I've included on wikipedia:
Theories that support the idea that the
DAMA/NaI has detected dark matter.
Theories that claim that dark matter consists of [simp|strongly interacting massive particles]. I've given only a few references here, but there are at least a few hundred pubications in this field. But still most physicists working on dark matter don't think that dark matter is strongly (self) interacting. So, technically this is somewhat of a fringe idea. But science isn't about conflicts between believers and non believers of certain theories. If you write an article about strongly interacting dark matter then the referee won't reject your paper just because he doesn't think that dark matter is strongly interacting. You may not even believe it yourself! You write the paper, not because you believe that the theory is true, but because you have found that the known observational evidence allows for the theory to be true. Your paper can then prompt other scientists to try to close the window allowing for your theory to be true. This then leads to a better understanding of the properties of dark matter.
What about
mirror matter? Just like in case of
simps, there are a large number of publications
see here. Then there is the idea of broken mirror symmetry (I never had the time to write about that here).
What about
Q-balls,
B-balls,
strange quark matter,
exotic baryons?
Needless to say, there are many many more of such theories out there that most scientists (who work in the field) don't believe in. In many cases the people who work on these theories don't really believe in them themselves! But as I wrote above, science (unlike religion) is not about belief :)
Count Iblis
13:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
From what I can gather, this list was originally intended to be one of pseudoscience but the NPOV renaming was too charitable toward "crackpot" theories. I think there is an important distinction to be made here between ironic science and pseudoscience. Ironic science often is well within the mainstream, and is called such because it's theories are not empirically testable. For example, research into the origins of life is an ironic science. Even if such a theory were to lead to creation of life in a laboratory, one would still not know that it occured the same way the first time. String theory also falls into this category because it does not make any predictions that can be observed. (The big bang theory on the other hand predicted cosmic background radiation) Most ironic sciences are based on sound reasoning and the practitioners cannot be faulted because the nature of their subject defies clasical empiricism. In contrast, those who adhere to pseudoscience are guilty of discarding reason and ignoring evidence. Lack of verification does not make the theories of ironic science pseudoscientific in the sense that that term is commonly used, but they are speculative and often disputed. If the title remains unchanged, then all ironic sciences should added. However, I do not believe that this is in the spirit of the list, and a better solution would be to use the same title used in the pseudoscience article: "Feilds often associated with pseudoscience" (The list within the article should probably be removed or added to this page) This is almost a "weasel word" violation of NPOV because "often associated" doesn't attribute the claim to any particular person or group, but I think it's preferable to directly calling these theories pseudoscience (that might offend some non-rational people). -- AAMiller 16:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that this page ought to be rethought a bit. First of all, the list of reasons for inclusion is inappropriate. As-is, it reads
Yet look again: Creationism claims to have experimental/observational validation, and string theory is not yet testable. So back off a second and ask "what is the real issue here"?
The real focus of this page is theories which are not accepted as factual or reasonably possible by the scientific community and yet are also in some way significant. This They seems to fall into several catergories:
So then what is left out and why? The reasons for leaving something out are three-fold:
I would also suggest tagging the theories on this list with a word or two in bold and parenthseis stating why it is on this list. For example:
So overall the entries in this list are theories that are notable for one reason or another and yet are not considered to be tenable by the scientific community. I think that this is a much sounder basis for inclusion in this list than worrying about the reasons for its being like that. After all, Wegener's view of continental drift would have qulified for this list 50 years ago. Today, it is the view of the continents being immobile that is discredited. -- EMS | Talk 16:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Ohwilleke 04:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC) The fringe theories category is the problematic one. Where regularly peer reviewed journal articles are present and the evidence is inconclusive, it doesn't belong here, even if it is amde of minority views. Discredited or pseudoscientific is a completely different thing.
Two comments: First, we need to decide if we are using "theory" in the scientific sense of the word or if we are using it in the colloquial sense of the word. Second, some of these theories may be classified by more than one of the above descriptor. If we do format it on a way based on this or based on a similar breakdown, we should keep that in mind. JoshuaZ 04:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to have you re-evalaute these using the criteria that I can up with above. For fringe theories, I think that the stanards for that designation should be
Your remarks point out the extent to which the list is based of very subjective criteria which involve scientific acceptability instead of the lack of scientific acceptance. For example, in accupunture it amy be qi that is discredited instead of accupunture itself. -- EMS | Talk 05:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I added the vaccine theory of autism. Though widely held, the Institute of Medicine report finds no evidence for the the theory and statements by the IOM and the American Academy of Pediatrics firmly establish the theory as outside the realm of the accepted practice of medicine. -- 149.142.201.98 03:38, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I added alchemy under "Physics" for lack of elsewhere to put it. This certainly qualifies as a pseudoscience and felt it should be included, even though it is essentially "dead". If anyone has any objections to including it, then it may be removed. Rt66lt, August 3, 2005
Someone has some explainin' to do. How can applying the scientific approach be speculative ? Franc28 22:33, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
And this newest update is another bungling. Mutations are not random even in standard Neo-Darwinism. That's an old urban legend that comes from simplistic vulgarisation of the topic. Franc28 07:22, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
If you include memetics here you could just as well include all of the controversial but legitimate scientific theories/ideas. Count Iblis 13:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought that theories contained the requirement that they be verifiable via experiment. Intelligent design, for example, is not verifiable via experiment. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 09:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I already started to improve this article but it looks to be an impossible task, according to me it doesn't belong in Wikipedia at all -- it's the kind of junk yard article that Wikipedia can do without. The above comment sketches the problem: "xyz is indeed a disputed theory and not popular among physicists, but it's indecent to have it listed on a page that includes the Flat earth theory. Oh well. If that's what the mob decides."
To make de facto a blacklist of everything non-mainstream seems incompatible with Wikipedia's purposes, and possibly constitutes Original Research as well. The best solution I see is to copy-paste useful parts to other places, and then feed the article to the sharks. But maybe someone else has another solution? Harald88 21:24, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, except for the POV word "crank list". And I see input for at least four existing articles (which could be linked):
- pseudo science (not testable according to generally accepted scientific standards)
- obsolete scientific theories
- fringe science (little corroborated or impopular scientific theories)
However, I don't know if enough peer reviewed literature exists on these subjects. Anyway, this "collect all" article can be spun off to give examples to those articles on precise, existing subjects, and next each article can be discussed separately.
Harald88 23:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
We should only keep a list containing crackpot theories. In the previous VFD I voted like this:
keep. I would suggest that point 5: Adhered to by a limited group be dropped as a criteria for incusion in the list. This is too vague and will lead to disputes. Only crackpot theories should be included. To decide whether or not you are dealing with a crackpot theory is simple. just check out peer reviewed scientific journals (with the exception of the Journal of Creation Science, of course). Count Iblis 15:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) Count Iblis 01:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I now do have another suggestion though: make this a list of theories and hypothesis -- that's again a neutral and straightforward subject, without inherent (improper) discrimination. I now think that it would be useful to have such a list, and independent of the popularity (it should only be sufficiently notable) Harald88 07:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's a thought: Call the list "List of Non-prevailing Theories and Hypotheses" and separate into groupings: 1) Current theories not prevailing; 2) Formerly prevailing theories but overturned, 3) Testable hypotheses, 4) Non-testable hypotheses with current notable adherents, and 5) Non-testable hypotheses with no current notable adherents. Something like that, as I'm uncertain my language is precise enough. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 08:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I now found by chance the article proposal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Title_Neutrality Obviously the subject matter is similar, as well as the issues about "crackpot" and so on. It enforces my recommandation for a neutral theorie list (and no ranking in crackpot etc.!) just here above. Harald88 23:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
In addition to the above, there was today (not on this page but on the main page) a question why an article that is titled "Talk:List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories", and that describes itself as a list of theories that are "considered to be fringe or pseudoscientific by the mainstream scientific community" should have as possible criterion for a theory that it's "not mainstream". Is there any need to explain that "alternative" +"disputed" + "considered [...] by mainstream" + "respectable theories that are simply the minority view" imply such? This independent of the question if examples of that are currently included.
Listed theories that are currently included but about which there may be no complete concensus that, as listed, they belong to any of the other 4 categories (except perhaps in "mainstream", but that is an invalid, for circular argument!):
- Irreducible complexity - Dowsing - Flood geology - Acupuncture - AIDS reappraisal - Bates Method - Homeopathy - Vitamin C - Autodynamics - Luminiferous aether - Steady state theory - Scalar waves - Parapsychology - Graphology - Recovered memory
Harald
My reply was to Hob Gadling's comment; With the 5 categories I mean the criteria in the intro of the list. Harald88 14:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Should TRIZ really be listed under Divination? It doesn't even seem to belong on this page. Bobby1011 20:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
A disctinction has been made between Kinesiology and Applied Kinesiology. But both are not science. It's the same bullshit, but thanks to this "difference", kinesiologues can say "no, I don't do AK, I'm a serious kinesiologue". Serious kinesiology doesn't exist, and if some governments reconize kineziology (it's written on the French page, maybe Quebec ???) it's a serious error. In France, a baby died because his parents was kinesiologue and wanted to attend him only with kinesiology. You can read what is written in the both articles, if this theories are disputed, it's because it's not science at all, and it's presented like a medicine, so it's very dangerous. I think we must make one only artice, because this 2 articles have been created to make an advertising for this dangerous activity. If some doctors would read this articles, they would see that it could be dangerous when people think it's an efficient method.
A french article linked with kinesiology (Méditation Kinémantra), is about a meditation method used in kinesiology. They tell that its efficient is proved by science. But they also say that you can have your own religion too... It's the first time I read that in an article about science, health or medicine... In France, this movement is suspected to be a dangerous sect.
So, I hope serious people will take care of it. If you have a scientific debate with kinesiologues, I'm sure it will be short, you will see that it's not a science at all. I'm french so I can't edit articles in english, it would be horrible. I'm trying to work on the french version. I hope you will do something about it.
Korr 11:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
An appropriate name for this wiki should probably be "alternative theories generally not accepted by the majority of the science community", but the current title is long enough. I find it seriously hard to believe that the bickerers in this talk page that have bloated it to a nearly unreadable size, can't comprehend the purpose of an article like this. I wanted to read this list to find alternative theories not generally taught as main stream, not read a bloated talk page to find out why the article is disputed. I don't even know if an equivalent statement like this has already been brought forth, I don't have time to read such a novel.
So, if a theory is generally more accepted by science than it is not, just leave it be and off of this list.
Thank you,
--
Filthy swine
00:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I trimmed considerably the line about zero point origin of inertia, which included detail that properly should be in the linked article. (In this case, the linked article is nonexistent and I don't have time to actually write it, sorry). I am a little surprised to see the ZPOI immediately under the Time Cube entry -- I knew Haisch and studied some of his earlier ZP papers when I was a graduate student at Stanford (and knew a lot more QED than I know now) -- and he was considerably more coherent and the ideas considerably more plausible than a lot of the other stuff on this page. In particular, it seemed to me that ZPOI might be wrong but it certainly didn't fit into the "not even wrong" category. I'm leaving it here since it's definitely an alternative theory to the usual Higgs mechanism, but I'd love to see someone write a bit more about what they are doing these days. zowie 05:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The article says " Some currently respected theories, such as e.g. plate tectonics or the idea that stones could fall from the sky (meteorites) were rejected just because they contradicted popular belief amongst scientists, not because they were in conflict with known experimentally established results of that time. "
In the case of the predecessor of plate techtonics (i.e. Continental drift) it was not accepted not because it conflicted known results but because there was not sufficient evidence in its favor to accept it. I think that is pretty much the case for meteorites too - the idea that rocks fell from the sky did not conflict with any experimental results, but there was insufficient evidence to support it. Bubba73 (talk), 17:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Anything which by admission the idea of a single individual (and returns only about 800 google hits) simply is not important enough for wikipedia. The argument "let the reader decide its notability" simply doesn't hold under wiki rules. Wikipedia is not an advertisement for people's pet theories. I am therefore removing the entry again. JoshuaZ 21:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
"Many of the items on this list conform with scientific method but conflict with the well established views held by a scientific elite who have reputations and status to loose by accepting change. See work of Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend". I hold this to be a valid point of view worthy of inclusion.
I see that some things I added have been discussed and excluded already , however the focus of this article is confused. Is it just crackpot ideas, is it minority science , is it bad science. What is it? Needs to be split into several clearly defined articles. Lumos3 06:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest there are 3 categories:-
This is a respectable theory, albeit controversial. To put this theory in a list containing theories like Flat Earth Theory and Ley Lines is just stupid. Count Iblis 00:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Vitamin C because it does not fit the criteria for this page. See the Vitamin C article. The debate on vitamin C and health is a respectable theory conducted between scientists.
Lumos3 08:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I think its a bad idea, but maybe the proposer can explain at greater length? --- CH 17:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I am against the merger. One article is about a type of person and the other is about theories. The list is referenced in at least one article where it wouldn't make sense to link to "crank". Also, not all such theories are by cranks. Bubba73 (talk), 17:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The list in Crank (person) is redundant, and at least it should be merged. Bob A 18:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the list in Crank (person) makes sense separately as a list of topics about which cranky theories are often proposed, rather than a list of individual theories. Henning Makholm 19:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Nothing has happened since May and I just rewrote Crank (person) to remove entirely the previous overlap, so I removed the merger flag since it seems this is now moot. --- CH 08:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
If the Internet had existed in times past...
all of these were, at the time of their discovery, disputed hotly. but they are now "commonly accepted." And some of them had no proof whatsoever against them.
We don't add hotly debated controversial theories here; only crackpot theories are added to te list. Crackpot theories are not hotly debated at all in the scientific community. Neither of the three examples you gave would have qualified for inclusion in the list. Count Iblis 19:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that "Cold Fusion" should go somewhere in this article...unless it's considered a hoax...although there are those who believe that it is still possible. NCartmell 22:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
This is necessary, because the title doesn't cover the content of the list. Count Iblis 13:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Was this article previously named (by previously, I mean an hour ago!) 'List of controversial, disputed, speculative theories'? Why does every theory in wikipedia have to be referenced in terms of science and non-science? I'm detecting this bias more often than not in Wikipedia articles. I suppose it would reflect my interests. Anyway... It the article should remain with the original title. If not, should alternative histories be added to this pseudoscience page? Well I suppose Atlantis and Lemuria are already here.
Also, the entire introduction has been changed. The commentary about theories moving between boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable by mainstream and minority groups, I think, is very important, because it highlights that their are at least two points of view about the articles contents. It is simply labelled pseudoscience now, which in my readings of Wikipedia are sometimes likened to cast off ideas ready for the waste disposal bin and should not even be included in an encyclopedia. More bias. I would suggest reverting to the way the article was originally entitled and introduced. It was comprehensible with the short outline... now it is just introduced as a boring pseudo-list. Sections entitled 'pseudoscience' are everywhere on Wikipedia. Maybe this article could be retitled again as the List of Research into Pseudoscientific Theories.. If not, maybe we need to warn the reader with an NPOV tag? Drakonicon 14:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I have never before heard the theory of technological singularity described as pseudoscience. It seems to me to be based on sound extrapolation and not pathological science. Can somebody explain the reasoning behind putting it here? If there's a good reason of which I'm unaware, that's fine, but it seems at odds with many other theories here. Greyscale 09:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Should this be removed? It seems to me that the basic idea of eugenics is simply selective breeding, which is fully supported by evolution. The specific theory described in this article is a bit beyond what classic eugenics covers, but I don't see it as necessarily being unscientific. --- DrLeebot 14:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The first and fourth criteria presented constitute what Karl Popper called the 'Baconian Myth'. There is no way of proving that sufficient experiments have been done to 'prove' a theory. However, only one is required to disprove it. Ergo, the scientific endeavour seeks to construct experiments to refute established theories. Long established theories have withstood this merciless bombardment, initial speculations have not, but that in itself does not constitute grounds for their dismissal out of hand.
A pseudo-scientific theory is one that cannot be disproved, even in principle. These are 'theories' for which the adherents will always find supporting evidence, and turn a blind eye to the many counter-examples. It is not the supporting evidence that is important - a single counter example is sufficient to refute a theory. Gordon Vigurs 10:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
No we don't. A single counter-example is all that is needed. Unfortunately, many of science's 'sacred cows' do not stand up to this criterion. However, much of pseudo-science relies on intrinsic untestability. Theories are irrefutable because it is impossible to construct experiments to refute them, as such they cannot possibly be considered science. Gordon Vigurs 19:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
That you need a theory to start with is precisely Popper's position. If you cannot predict the bounds of error before conducting the experiment, the entire endeavour is pointless. Again, it is merely because the criterion is too difficult to meet that it is rejected. The alternative of requiring 'sufficient' corroborative results is nonsense - how many, and who decides? Gordon Vigurs 07:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the cross-reference to the Demarcation problem I knew the discussion had to be here somewhere . Gordon Vigurs 18:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is supposed to use a NPOV, right? But claiming that mainstream scientists call creationism a pseudo-science is fair just in case that the "less-tream" scientists also make a point against evolution.
According to a recent poll, 44% of the americans believe in creationism, 38% in theistic evolution and 18% in atheistic evolution. 44% is almost the half of America! Calling it "mainstream" is just refer to people to work based on consensus, not scientifical data.
Evolutionary theories like the Big Bang, Continental drift and evolution itself have been largely debated and proved wrong but "mainstream" scientists still deny it. Evolution, Big Bang and Continental drifts ARE pseudo-sciences and they'll never stop being that way, cause there's no way to bring God back (according to 82% of americans) and make him "scientifically" create the whole universe again, no matter when (4001 a.C. or many many billion years ago) or how (evolution or creation)
What I'm trying to say is that Wikipedia's NPOV policy should be respected and, as it goes, do not support neither "mainstream science" nor "less-tream science" cause both of them my have right arguments for what they believe and that is just the right thing to do: debate. Wikipedia shouldn't call creation sciences pseudo-scientifical without calling evolution pseudo-scientifical, just depends on which side would you take: "mainstream" or "less-tream".
And it's not even mainstream at all! 44% of americans believe in creation, 56% in evolution, and there is a AWESOME rise of creationism in Darwin's homeland, UK.
And I'll point something else. Cryptozoology is as much as pseudo-science as most physical theories and geological theories are. Cryptozoology is a "science of theories" cause it tries to prove the existence of a certain animal or plant by scientifical methods, and there are millions and millions of proofs supporting most cryptids to be true. It doesn't even fail Occam's Razor, cause we all know that MANY animales were once thought to be extinct or mythical (like gorillas, okapis, coelacanths, saolas) and they turned out to be real animals, so calling cryptozoology a pseudo-science is just arrogant "mainstream" consensus.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Arturo 7 ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 2 August 2006
The same thing for creation. Me being a creationist, I accept creation as just a theory as it cannot be proven right, but at least it's falsifiable and it cannot be proven wrong.
You can prove that the world's crust was created in 3 minutes according to polonium haloes in continental granite, but you cannot prove that the universe was created in 6 days. Trying to prove THAT is senseless, as it's a falsifiable belief. You can prove that the world was created about 6,000 years ago according to astronomical, chemical, physical and geological laws; but you cannot positively prove that there was Adam and Eve nor the literal 6 days, just that the earth is young. They're falsifiable beliefs; they cannot be proven wrong but they cannot be proven right.
I believe in 6-day creation as a matter of faith, not science as it cannot be scientifically proved. Perhaps evolution, continental drift and big bang can be proved wrong, and they've already been proved wrong. What I'm trying to say is that according to the science concept, the pseudoscience term should not be used just for theories that are dismissed by mainstream consensus, perhaps every single theory that cannot be proven neither positively nor negatively. Science is a fact, faith is a belief.-- Arturo 7 19:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently editing a book on it using the Laws of Epistemology (coined by me). Using the Epistemic Law of Dicotomy, we got 2 kinds of knowledge: Faith and Science. Faith is to believe something that you cannot prove positively true, but you cannot prove it wrong, just like the 6 Day Creation account in the Bible. Science is to know something that is proved truth, such as the weight of things, size, mathematics and all that stuff.
Then I got that everything must be doubted to prove it true. That's the Epistemic Law of Doubt. Nothing can be proved true without doubting it. So according to the concepts of faith and science, they both cannot be proved wrong. But what about "faith dogmas" and "scientific theories"? Part of the Third Law of Epistemology (Doubt) is that. You should be able to doubt something and prove it true, but you can't.
Scientific theories and catholic dogmas share the same background: both are suppositions and can be proved right or wrong according to empirical studies. The difference is that catholic dogmas can be proved false and they'll still believe in it.
You cannot prove wrong the creation, as evolution is based on assumptions, something that does not agree with Occam's razor.
And what I tried to say is that you CAN prove the world to be 4,000 years old and the earth crust being created in 3 minutes, but still you can't prove that the world was created in 6 days. If you believe in God, scientifically you'll KNOW as a factual truth that God created the universe about 6,000 years ago but you won't prove that it all happened in 6 days. It could have been 6 months or 6 years! Empirically it's impossible to prove that they were 6 literal days but it's also impossible to prove that they were wrong. That's what differs creation as a theory and faith, theories can be proven wrong like evolution and continental drift and faith dogmas cannot be proved wrong. But that all doesn't make them truth.
I BELIEVE in a 6-Day Creation 6,000 years ago and I has been proved the earth to be 6000 years old, but you cannot prove the 6-Day proccess or Jesus walking on water to be truth nor wrong. That epistemic concept for unknown is something really amazing. Soon I'll write about it on my user page. Happy editing! -- Arturo #7 21:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Creationism is pseudoscience because it is a body of scientific-sounding arguments designed to dress up a faith-based belief. There is no test that creationists agree would falsify the theory (as Arturo 7 just pointed out), so it is not falsifiable and hence not part of the scientific process. However, creationists and creationist literature point to many phenomena that they claim support their hypothesis that the world is young, and describe those phenomena in scientific-sounding words. Hence creationism (as currently practiced/presented) appears to be science but is not. Hence it is pseudoscience. zowie 22:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
•Jim62sch• 23:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
According to epistemic principles, the argument of authority does not mean anything. A few millenia ago the people thought that electricity was fake, the earth was flat and that there were unicorns and phoenixes going around as a FACT. Nowadays we know that the earth is spheric, that electricity does exist and that unicorns and phoenixes may exist.
Pseudo-science does NOT refer to mainstream consensus, it refers to theories that are NOT proved right. You can prove continental drift, big bang and evolution wrong. They're just THEORIES, and theories are NOT science cause science MEANS factual truth.
Evolution, big bang, continental drift, creation, Jesus walking on water and stuff are THEORIES so they are NOT scientifical.
A "scientifical theory" is a theory that tries to look like science but it's not as it's not a fact. Faith dogmas like Mary's virginity and Jesus' chastity are THEORIES that try to look like faith-based but they're NOT.
Pseudo-science EQUALS something that cannot be proven right, perhaps astrology may be proved easier than evolution.
ALL theories are pseudoscientifical as they're NOT scientifical, and calling a theory scientifical is as dumb as saying that there were winged cows these days.
WIKIPEDIA REQUIRES A NPOV.-- Arturo #7 22:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Faith: Belief in something that cannot be proven wrong Sciencie: Knowledge of the universe as a factual truth
Catholic dogmas are theories, as they have not yet be proven right and there's a lot of stuff proving them wrong. Catholic dogmas do not believe in something that is not non falsifiable, they consist in the invention of supernatural altered processes against common scientifical laws. For example, there are no historic results for Mary's virginity in the Bible.
Theories are also a belief, not science. They have not been proven right, and their acceptance and belief depend on how much faith do you use for it.-- Arturo #7 02:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
: Epistemic definitions... Faith: Belief in something that cannot be proven wrong Sciencie: Knowledge of the universe as a factual truth
This has a certain specious appeal, but reflects a certain common naivety. Supposing we somehow came across 'factual truth', known technically as 'episteme', how do we prove it is, and not more human created knowledge 'doxa'? What experiment can we conduct to 'prove' that we have the ultimate theory?
To quote Einstein: 'There could be no fairer destiny for any...theory than it should point the way to a more comprehensive theory in which it lives on, as a limiting case.'
Dogma has absolutely no place in science, everything is up for grabs. It is right and proper that revered theories should be continuously bombarded with experiments to try to refute them. The best we can say is that a well tested theory is definitely superior to one which has been tested and found wanting.
Pseudo scientific theories are either intrinsically untestable, or have been tested and found wanting. Creationism fails the first test, hence the second cannot be applied.
However, the Wikipedia policy as to what consititutes a valid encyclopedia entry, is in direct conflict with this fundamental philosophy of science, in trying to present 'doxa' as irrefutable 'episteme'. Perhaps all science articles should be deleted, and only lists of historical or biographical facts retained. Gordon Vigurs 10:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Creationism fails because the faithful will interpret any available evidence as supporting it. For this reason it is irrefutable, and hence it is not science. My point is that science may have theories that are 'factual truth', but there is no way of proving that they are. The best we can do is identify what is false, ergo only falsifiable theories are admissible. Now an encyclopedia is based on the premise that the knowledge contained within it is indisputable, but if it is indisputable, it is bad science. Gordon Vigurs 20:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
There doesn't have to be a complex classification system, but something has to distinguish between potentially accurate theories and the completely bogus ones. Time Cube should not be anywhere near Heim's Theory, for example.
Whats with mv'ing the article? I've locked the mv permissions for the moment until this gets talked about properly. I'm happy with the current title. Other opinions? William M. Connolley 20:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, actually looking at the article (:-) I see a couple of problem inclusions:
LSToG is wrong, but was a not unreasonable theory at the time. Not psuedoscience though. The LE pages sez its an obsolete sci theory - and that seems fair enough to me... Oh, and I see that the intro mentions LE. There should be some system for ranking sensible-at-the-time-but-not-now theories against currently-proposed-but-junk William M. Connolley 20:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I found Superseded scientific theory (via the AFD...) William M. Connolley 07:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to clarify what people think, I've removed Le Sage and Aether from the list (while the page is protected, which is naughty, but still). I'm arguing that these are obsolete, not psuedoscience. Is that fair? OTOH people looking for these on the list won't now find them... William M. Connolley 14:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The luminiferous aether was not so much disproved, as rendered superfluous. It was discarded using Occam's razor as unnecessary. Gordon Vigurs 08:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the POV tag. Let's discuss it here first. Let's first focus on entries that are now on the list that shouldn't be on the list or vice versa. If there are any problems about how pseudoscience is defined then that's a less urgent problem if that hasn't led to any disputes about actual entries on the list. Count Iblis 22:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please come and vote :) Count Iblis 01:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Orthomolecular medicine does not belong here. Orthomolecular medicine is molecular medicine on the natural side with (usually) unpatentable substances for individualized physiological uses, often not yet accepted for conventional medical practice in the US. Orthomed is based on the work of a number of *outstanding* scientists (pls note the plural carefully). Orthomolecular medicine areas may sometimes classify as protoscience, some claims may require modification as data and experience are added, and some claimants whose statements may be classed as pseudoscience may "borrow" the title - this happens in many fields too. Any and all are invited to read the OM talk page first. Please also read the vitamin C discussion above.-- 69.178.41.55 05:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Even the JAMA has come round on this:
Vitamins for chronic disease prevention in adults: clinical applications. Fletcher RH, Fairfield KM in JAMA 2002 Jun 19;287(23):3127-9 PMID: 12069676 “Most people do not consume an optimal amount of all vitamins by diet alone. Pending strong evidence of effectiveness from randomized trials, it appears prudent for all adults to take vitamin supplements..... We recommend that all adults take one multivitamin daily..... It is reasonable to consider a dose of 2 ordinary [i.e. RDA levels] multivitamins daily in the elderly”
Vitamins for chronic disease prevention in adults: scientific review. Fairfield KM, Fletcher RH in JAMA 2002 Jun 19;287(23):3116-26 PMID: 12069675 “Although the clinical syndromes of vitamin deficiencies are unusual in Western societies, suboptimal vitamin status is not [unusual].”
-- Michael C. Price talk 19:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Here're three studies on folic acid and colon cancer:
Multivitamin use, folate, and colon cancer in women in the Nurses' Health Study. Giovannucci E, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Hunter DJ, Fuchs C, Rosner BA, Speizer FE, Willett WC in Ann Intern Med 1998 Oct 1;129(7):517-24 PMID: 9758570 Long-term use (>15 years) of folate-containing multivitamin supplements produced an almost 5-fold reduction in the incidence of colon cancer. Other cancers not analysed. The protective effect (relative to age-matched controls) increased with the duration of supplementation. The relative risk of colon cancer over the period 1980-1994 (against folate intake in 1980, without adjusting for other vitamins) was: 1.0 (<= 200 ug/d), 0.92 (201-300 ug/d), 0.79 (301-400 ug/d) & 0.69 (>400 ug/d). This risk declined with time: comparing the >400 with the <=200 folate ug/d group the risk declined from 0.85 (1980-mid1988) to 0.56 (mid1988-1994). Amongst multivitamin users (pooling all folate categories) the risk declined with duration of use: 1.02 (4 years use), 0.83 (5-9yrs), 0.80 (10-14 yrs) & 0.25 (15+ yrs). Women who had 15+ years of multivitamin use and >300 ug/d energy-adjusted folate (in 1980) had a RR of only 0.22[CI: 0.05-0.88] compared with users with <15 years multivitamin use and 201-300 ug/d (>RDA) of energy-adjusted folate. FDA regulations forbad the use of 400ug of folate in multivitamin supplements prior to 1973, which limited the ability for a longer -term follow-up. The study abstract concludes: “Long-term use of multivitamins may substantially reduce risk for colon cancer. This effect may be related to the folic acid contained in multivitamins.”
Are dietary factors involved in DNA methylation associated with colon cancer? Slattery ML, Schaffer D, Edwards SL, Ma KN, Potter JD in Nutr Cancer 1997;28(1):52-62 PMID: 9200151 “We did not observe strong independent associations between folate, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, methionine, or alcohol and risk of colon cancer after adjusting for body size, physical activity, cigarette smoking patterns, energy intake, and dietary intake of fiber and calcium. However, when assessing the associations between colon cancer and a composite dietary profile based on alcohol intake, methionine, folate, vitamin B12, and vitamin B6, we observed a trend of increasing risk as one moved from a low- to a high-risk group”
Dietary intake of folic acid and colorectal cancer risk in a cohort of women. Terry P, Jain M, Miller AB, Howe GR, Rohan TE in Int J Cancer 2002 Feb 20;97(6):864-7 PMID: 11857369 “Folate is crucial for normal DNA methylation, synthesis and repair, and deficiency of this nutrient is hypothesized to lead to cancer through disruption of these processes. There is some evidence to suggest that relatively high dietary folate intake might be associated with reduced colorectal cancer risk, especially among individuals with low methionine intake. […] Folate intake was inversely associated with colorectal cancer risk (IRR = 0.6, 95% CI = 0.4-1.1, p for trend = 0.25). The inverse association was essentially similar among individuals with low and high methionine intake, and was similar for colon and rectal cancers when those endpoints were analyzed separately. Among individuals with low methionine intake, folate intake did not appear to lower the risk of rectal cancer, a finding that may be due, in part, to the low number of cases in the subgroup analysis. Overall, our data lend some support to the hypothesis that high folate intake is associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.” -- Michael C. Price talk 19:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This conversation belongs on
Talk:Orthomolecular medicine. From what I can tell, this is not a pseudiscience, and so I removed it.
linas
22:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This list is an excellent alternative to category:pseudoscience whose existence is imo an NPOV violation (see WP:CG and WP:Categorization of people; the category namespace presents unique NPOV problems because it appears without annotation). I think topics on this list do need to be sourced. I strongly disagree with the idea that if something lacks scientific evidence in some respect and has been called PS in some respect by a critic, then it must be considered PS by the scientific community. Scientists generally comment on evidence or lack thereof. "Pseudoscience" is more a political and pejorative term. As such, no problem presenting views about PS on WP, but we do need to source them. cheers, Jim Butler( talk) 05:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
category:pseudoscience is hardly a violation of NPOV. I'm not sure, Jim Butler, what your exact dislike of this topic is (aside from its treatment of chiropractics) but you clearly appear to be trying to eliminate the topic from wiki. Perhaps you might be willing to explain why. •Jim62sch• 23:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
MichaelCPrice vandalized the article by deleting cited and referenced text, and falsely called it "restore vandalized text." -- Cri du canard 23:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that simply labeling these theories as pseudoscience is an NPOV violation. This is because the proponents of any of these theories will obviously contest that, and by simply stating that they are pseudoscience we're ignoring their viewpoint. Even though they're the minority, we still have to give them a modicum of respect, but make it clear they're in the minority.
This is why I'm proposing we move this page to List of theories commonly considered pseudoscientific. The summary of the list within the article should make it clear that by this we mean that a notable number of scientists would agree that this theory is pseudoscientific (and they are, of course, not outnumbered by those who believe it's valid). --- DrLeebot 13:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Please tell us exactly how the title List of pseudoscientific theories is "an WP:NPOV violation." WP:NPOV specifically singles out how to present pseudoscience at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience. Whether particular topics are pseudoscience (and hence included here) is dealt with at each topic's article. That they are part of this list is well within "represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories" as called for at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience. Furthermore, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Giving_"equal_validity" states specifically about pseudoscience "Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory..." Lastly, this supposed "NPOV issue" evaporates when one properly applies Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions which says "What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page? No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc."
What's missing here is not a lack of neutrality, but an understanding of our neutrality policy. FeloniousMonk 20:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the opening paragraph states the criterion for inclusion quite clearly, whether we agree with them or not. Wiser minds can simply take the remainder with a pinch of salt. After all, we all enjoy a good pillory.
However, there is something incongruous about deciding what constitutes pseudo-science, using a criterion which pre-dates modern science, and was positively obstructive at the time. Also, an examination of practically any undergraduate science course at any Western university will show that philosophy is conspicuous by its absence. The majority of scientists conduct their careers on the basis of the same naive empiricism which is extant throughout society as a whole. Consequently the criterion adopted is rarely better than basic Baconian empiricism at its most naive. Gordon Vigurs 08:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
As I've proposed earlier, this page is clearly a wikipedia's NPOV policy violation as it treats many mainstreamly rejected theories, but is valid amongst a large group of people reagrding it as a valid scientifical theory, like creationism and some medical sciences. The original NPOV violation stated that pseudoscience refers to what mainstream science refers, in that case is an obvious mainstream POV. It'd be much better to choose a title that doesn't violate wiki's NPOV, and discuss why it shouldn't be labeled "non-mainstream list", as the page states that pseudosciences are sciences not positively recognized by the mainstream community. That is not the definition of a pseudoscience, it's most likely a "non-mainstream" one. Happy editing!-- Arturo #7 00:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the entire page violates NPOV. There is no useful definition of pseudoscience, and no consensus on what is or is not pseudoscience. I see just a big list of things that someone is opinionated about. A lot of the inclusions and omissions are very hard to justify. Sometimes a fringe or speculative idea gets proved correct, and all of sudden it is a work of genius. Roger 19:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I can see one anonymous user disputing the accuracy of the page a month ago, saying that the page is 'inaccurate because it is incomplete', and then coming close to a personal attack on another user. I do not see anyone claiming that there are included theories that should not be there. I do not think this means there is an ongoing debate about the validity of the article. I am therefore removing the NPOV tag. If you wish to replace it, please feel free to do so, stating your reasons here on this talk page signed by writing ~~~~ after your comment.
Typo: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bognanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority. Should read: Riemannian Cosmology, proposed by Igor Bogdanoff, regarded as illucid or cranky by most mainstream physicists, but defended by a vocal minority.
Kosebamse claims that "Gene Ray refutes the scientific method itself". Kosebamse, please explain exactly how Dr Ray does that.
The aquatic ape hypothesis is not anywhere near as fringe as many of the other theories listed here. It is not generally accepted, sure, but it is no longer considered bunk. It has serious science behind it, and a growing number of biologists consider it seriously plausible. RK 00:58 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You waste my time, Reddi, forcing me to research things like that. That LANL link is just Anthony Lee Peratt's personal web space. As far as I could see, there's no mention of plasma cosmology on the official plasma physics group home page. I haven't looked up all those other institutions, but judging by the names they're all just plasma physics groups, not plasma cosmology. Now excuse me while I go and do something useful. -- Tim Starling 00:41 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
How does plasma cosomology deny one of the listed theories? If you read a little closer, you would have noticed that I anticipated this attack. I said that theories which deny one of the mainstream theories will be listed, I didn't say anything about theories which don't deny the mainstream theories. Not in that sentence, anyway.
"That is highly subjective ... who's the spokesman for the mainstream?" It's not subjective, because if worst comes to worst, we can take a poll. But luckily, we have a decent number of mainstream physicists and other scientists on Wikipedia, and those people have a fairly good idea of the attitude of their peers towards these theories. I'm relying on the input of experts.
Assessing the opinion of the mainstream community is an important part of NPOV policy.
"there isn't 'some sort of mythology' attached to it, I believe that may be your POV". It's my intuition, nothing more. I've said I don't understand the "rotating magnetic field model", so I can't be sure what's going on. I'm hoping you'll just tell me, but otherwise I'll probably work it out eventually. But if you must know, my suspicions were twigged by statements like:
The last one is particularly interesting. The main thing I'm missing is: what is the model? Rotating magnetic fields are a phenomenon, not a model. You don't prove a phenomenon, so what is there to this "model" besides the simple existence of rotating magnetic fields? -- Tim Starling 08:57 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
--
Just want to say that I agree that Plasma cosmology should not be included among this list. It has been around since the late 1800's and has much experimental backing. It is only fringe because it is not the mainstream paradigm. But you two have already gone through all this so I don't need to add any more here. -- Ionized
My word... -- Tim Starling 08:03, Aug 12, 2003 (UTC)
Thank you to all those responsible for re-wording the article. It is now much more acceptable, especially the comment that some currently accepted practices would have in the past been on this type of list. -- Ionized Tue, August 12th 6:06 pm
I think Gene's ideas are theories in the looser sense, even if not in a strictly scientific sense. Don't know if this is relevant... Martin 23:39, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Moved from article:
Other
This is far too vague to be in that list. Details please, or leave out. Kosebamse 11:41, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
What about Marxism, Lysenkoism, Lamarckism, Phlogiston, Calorific, Humors? -- -- Error 01:34, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This page has evolved considerably from its beginnings when it related to a short list of modern eccentric ideas. With the move of the list from the pseudoscience article it has come to include a lot of practices with a long and honorable tradition which the mainstream of modern sciences does not find acceptable. I have therefor moved it to a more NPOV title which excludes the pejorative term, "fringe". ☮ Eclecticology 10:30, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)
It hasn't evolved, it's just a whole stack of content moved in from Pseudoscience. This was intended as a list complementary to the one at pseudoscience -- in particular as a list of theories purporting to be scientific. I see two problems with the current name (List of alternative, speculative and disputed sciences):
My initial test for inclusion was the level of acceptance enjoyed from the mainstream community. By importing a large number of entries with a wide following, Reddi indeed made the article into something other than that given in the original title (List of speculative or fringe theories).
I suggest doing the following:
-- Tim Starling 12:49, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)
---
I can accept the change in the title from "sciences" to "theories". I pondered that possibility myself and decided that "science" in some usages was a much broader term. It was "fringe" in the old title that I found unacceptable. I was, in fact, glad to see the list moved from pseudoscience because that term is a characterization which was never subjected to any kind of strict criteria. I argued for the splitting off more than a year ago. The proponents of some of these practices had never even made a claim that they were sciences in the first place. The inclusion of some seemed to have been on a whim that could be disputed by those who are more familiar with the field. These whims varied considerably from one persan to another. I have always maintained that "not proven to be scientific" is a very different concept from "proven to be not scientific", and that "pseudosciece" should refer only to the latter.
The present title allows for things to be included without any implication of ultimate judgement about their validity. I don't think that dividing this list into categories would help our cause. That would open up a whole new series of disputes about where somthing belongs. Alphabetical order is about as neutral as we can hope for. Some tightening up could happen, such as including all practices ending in "-mancy" under fortune telling. ☮ Eclecticology 18:21, 2004 Feb 3 (UTC)
I've removed
The problem with this is that it has no believers. The term is a pejorative that was invented by opponents as a catch-all for what could be a wide range of practices. A minimum condition for incllusion on the list should be that there is somebody who does or has believed in it. Individual practices contemplated by this term should have their own entries. ☮ Eclecticology 00:15, 2004 Feb 15 (UTC)
The characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a Pseudoscience is based on the self-characterization of Marxism-Leninism as a science: for example, "The open abandonment by the Soviet revisionists of the scientific Marxist-Leninist concept of socialism comes out clearly, also, when they proclaim the development of the productive forces as the only decisive factor of its construction." and "The frontal attack of Soviet revisionism on the fundamental questions of Marxism-Leninism could not leave the theory and practice of scientific socialism untouched." [2] Fred Bauder 05:57, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
Marxism itself should not be listed here for a number of reasons. Marxism incorporates a wide range of theories in economics, politics, history, and philosophy. Marx's theory of dialectical materialism is simply the imperative to look at historical events in the context of social class and availability of resources; this can hardly be said to be discredited. Despite a number of competing theories, Marx's understanding of the cause of inflation has not, to my knowledge, been falsified. Finally, there has not yet been a society operating on purely Marxian principles, since Marx envisaged a system free of government. All existing so-called "communist" governments have been Marxist-Leninist (or some variant thereof), which are actually (by Lenin's own admission numerous times in his writings) simply a form of state capitalism. Their recent collapse is evidence that Lenin's state capitalism is not the correct road to a Marxian society, not that a Marxian society itself is impossible. — Psychonaut 10:11, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Accupuncture is not pseudoscience. If you look at the article on accupuncture, it is quite clear. The traditional theory behind accupuncture would probably fit the definition of pseudoscience, but I'm sure there is a scientific theory that would at least put it in the realm of protoscience. You probably have to divide a lot of the the topics here in half. Ezra Wax 17:05, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Please see the moved VfD discussion at Talk:List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories/Delete which includes suggestions to retitle this page.
Maybe it would help this page if theories were not listed alphabetically but were grouped by areas of knowledge to which they (purport to) belong. Also, the (necessarily brief) description of each theory should attempt to indicate what the theory is alternative to, why it is considered to be speculative, and why is it disputed.
Anyway, this page is a can or worms. Psychoanalysis is not listed despite the fact that a substantial number of critics say it is pseudoscientific and nonfalsifiable. String theory is speculative since it has made no contact with experiment. Evolution is disputed.
Miguel 17:19, 2004 Mar 20 (UTC)
I have carried out a (necessarily imperfect) preliminary classification. This has forced me to read the entries carefully, and a substantial number of the descriptions is highly non-NPOV and utterly uninformative. The introduction to the page is also atrocious, by the way. Miguel 20:22, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
Some of the things listed here are not properly theories either. It can be argued that evolution is more a paradigm than a theory, for instance, and Darwinism is not the only evolutionary theory of biology and is more properly described by natural selection. I have beefs with the description of Hidden Variable "theories", too. This is just the beginning, of course.
It would be great if we could write a new introduction from scratch. Miguel 20:55, 2004 Mar 21 (UTC)
Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation.
How can be a capitalism a "pseudoscience?" It does not puport to be a science at all, but only a philosophy of economics. It is not even a system per se, as capitalism can evolve in many different vectors, and still be capitalistic, as the make-up of the businesses will vary from culture to culture and year to year in its specificities. As it is not a science, it also does not make the utopian claim of perfectibility, as in Marxism. Few people do indeed feel that capitalism is somehow not acceptable, but history has shown us it is the best economic philosophy currently available to us. Capitalism is not a fringe philosophy. The small numbers of people who are anti-capitalist, on the other hand, are.
MSTCrow 02:38, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
Aren't all theories, by definition, speculative?
MSTCrow 03:20, May 31, 2004 (UTC)
I have restored "Bell Curve" as it fits the definition. Profoundly questionable science, supported by some, disputed by many more. Cold fusion had data too. (BTW, your removal edit certainly wasn't discussed on the talk page ...) - David Gerard 23:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is certainly not the "core theory" of the "Bell Curve," that "the differences in IQ between black and white Americans is genetically determined." This subject is covered in 46 out of 846 pages in chapter 13, and is irrelevant to the real "core theory."
Which is that, in the 20th century, the United States became much more socially and economically stratified by cognitive ability. That the smartest people have increasingly risen to the top. less hindered by class, race and gender distinctions. That there are some undesirable consequences to this societal change, to this creation of a cognitive elite. That people not cognitively favored have an increasingly difficult time dealing with life in the land of the smart rulers.
I considered this to be an important and most novel insight.
Bob Unferth
I would like to suggest that the "dangers" of DDT be included in the list. The entry for DDT itself makes mention of this, and Rachel Caron has never been recognized as a legitimate voice in the scientific community. This article, [3], by Roger Bate, makes note of this, and also of the millions of lives lost who would have otherwise been saved had DDT been available to protect against malaria spreading mosquitoes. He is by no means the first person to point this out either, and many health and evironmental organizations believe that the risk from DDT to animal life is minimal. As the premise for banning DTT is in itself questionable, and the millions of lives lost on a yearly basis in underdeveloped regions such as Africa due to the ban, I believe that this is a topic which warrants inclusion in the list.
MSTCrow 23:21, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)
I have removed Ayn Rand's objectivism because that is is a school of philosophy and all schools of philosophies are disputed. I mean, then we could as well include all other schools of philosophy and all religious movements. Kind regards. Andries 21:18, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I do not believe that evolution shoud be on the list. It is absolutely not an alternative, speculative or disputed theory. The groups who dispute evolutionary theory are on the same level as people who dispute relativity theory or quantum mechanics. I will start to figure out how to remove the Evolution entry from the list
I just checked, and I found that a few days ago somebody replaced creationism with evolution. The same IP put in objectivism (later removed). I put creationism back in, but is there a way to stop this person from doing it again? -- Frank.visser 23:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Since when is it not speculative nor disputed? Why do you think there is constant friction about evolution being indoctrinated in public schools?
When I went to college, the biology text used in class was written by George Gaylord Simpson in which he clearly, with several examples, indicated that the difference between a scientific theory and one that is not scientific is that the scientific theory was based on observation, where the observation is repeatable. Did Dr. Simpson know the definition of science? Has the definition for science changed since then?
Then look at Dr. Simpson's description of evolution: it is based on inobservable presuppositions. All the "evidences" for evolution, such as the interpretations of fossiles, radiomedric dating and so forth, are equally based on inobservable presuppositions. If observation is the test for science verses non-science, as above, how is evolution scientific? Or do you claim that Dr. Simpson didn't understand what science is?
Or to use Popper's concept of falsifyability: what would it take to falsify evolution? Historical artifacts? Records? What sort of observations would falsify evolution when it is not based on observation?
This is not a defense of creationism, as it is equally based on inobservable presuppositions.
Therefore, both theories are equally not scinece, according to Dr. Simpson's definition above.
Therefore, it is POV to include one theory as disputed and the other not.
Melamed 04:52, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm afraid you cannot attack the sacred cows. Fallibilism is disliked because it categorises many well loved-theories as questionable science; it imposes an extremely strict criterion. Hence we revert back to the days before the dawn of empirical science, and rely entirely on the word of academic authorities. However, if two theories fail because neither is in principle falsifiable, it is reasonable to select the one that has the greater amount of corroborative evidence, if we must make a choice between them. Gordon Vigurs 12:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
CBS News carried an article at: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml showing that the claim that evolution is not controversial is a very parochial view. In fact as this article shows, it is only a small minority who are true believers in evolution. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of whom are in government employ and the majority of those in government schools. Therefore, not to include it as a disputed theory is POV as it is a viewpoint taught by a small minority.
According to the poll numbers, it is the naturalistic evolutionists who are the smallest minority, followed by the theistic evolutionists, with an absolute majority who are creationists. Censorship and discrimination as practiced now may prevent creationists from getting degrees, or if perchance they succeed in obtaining an advanced degree in science, not getting an education position nor publication of their articles, but such efforts are perceived by the majority that evolution does not have a scientific or intellectual basis that can survive an open debate. Hence it is percieved as a speculative and disputed theory.
Melamed 23 Nov 2004
US-centered bias anyone? — Miguel 07:59, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 12:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)) My understanding was that the phrase "alternative, speculative or disputed" referred to the status of theories with respect to science and/or their appropriate professional community. Not wrt the general public.
I think George Gaylord Simpson says it all.
Bobby1011
19:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I hope there is some speculative element left in evolution, otherwise we should sack all the biologists as redundant! It is absurd to claim that observations not yet made cannot in any way refine it. Gordon Vigurs 14:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
"Brainwashing theory says that a person can have his belief system and basic values changed involuntarily by the use of social pressure e.g. in cults"
Was the author of this implying that cults do not change people's belief systems or basic values? It contradicts with observations, even superficial ones.
It's not a theory but a set of methods that can be used to change human being's belief system and basic values. The mechanisms used in the process are not unique to brainwashing, but normal, and can be researched under a number of psychological models. Basically, it's abuse of the same mechanisms that govern the learning and adjustment of a child, in an adult person. Cults are not unique in using them.
Melamed, please stop unilaterally adding evolution to the list. Clearly there's been some controversy over its inclusion, so it would be better to try to make your case here and gain the support of other editors of this page before making your changes. For the record, I do not believe that evolution is not a science. It may seem difficult to falsify, though there are a variety of methods which have gained wide acceptance in the biological community. I suggest you read through the talk.origins FAQs if you have not already done so; if you have a novel argument which has not yet been addressed there or here, then perhaps you can defend it here and we will be swayed. Psychonaut 21:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Melamed hi. Please read carefully the beginning of the page. It states that inclusion in this page has to do first and foremost with being accepted academically. Evolution is universally accepted inside the academia. Ask any biologist. Opposition to evolution comes from outside the academy. This is not about how to define science. Just a poll.
Gady 20:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
First of all, the beginning of the page doesn't even have the word "accademically" in it, nor any referrence thereto. However, it does state Many of these theories are considered pathological science: a psychological process in which believers in a theory, who may have originally conformed to the scientific method, unconsciously veer from that method and begin a pathological process of wishful data interpretation. which is an almost perfect description of evolution except that evolution never conformed to the scientific method.
Melamed 05:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By the way, if you add acedemically to the top of the article, that is almost a shouted admission that the following article is full of NPOV violations. It is widely recognized that acedemia as a whole is anything but NPOV.
Actually, it may be better for you to start out with the claim that this article makes no pretence of NPOV. 1) it is intellectually more honest, than to pretend NPOV while writing POV 2) People like myself will be less inclined to edit the page, as it will be an honest POV entry
Melamed 05:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Gady: True, I just skimmed the definition of NPOV vs. POV, but in skimming it I noticed nothing with which I would disagree. But nowhere did I notice that Wikipedia articles should be limited to academia's standards. It is not without reason that academia is often called the "ivory tower", not only because academics are often out of touch with the rest of the world, but also because they are usually surrounded by people of like mind, that they often do not recognize their own biases, illogic and limitations. If I had noticed that Wikipedia limits its definition of NPOV to how academia defines it, I would have treated Wikipedia articles the same as I treat other academic sources: sometimes useful, but use with caution because of POV.
I'll remind you of the academic a few years ago, who deliberately wrote a piece that was nonsense to illustrate the absurdity of the peer review process. Because he is such a big name in his field (sorry, I don't remember his name right now) the article got published. He finally had to come out publicly announce what he had done.
Incidently, I noticed that none of you responded to my mention above why evolution is a disputed and speculative theory. While I mentioned Dr. Simpson, others have published the same ideas so this concept is not original with me. I see three options from the above, either 1) Dr. Simpson was a fool who didn't know what he was talking about when he described what is science (hard to back up, as I checked several textbooks and none gave a contradictory description), 2) the definition of science has changed since I checked, making any claim that a particular theory is or is not scientific a time based, subjective assertion and not an objective standard; if this view is adopted, then there can be no pathological science as there is no objective standard as to what is good science, or 3) evolution is not, never has been and never can be, a scientific theory. Sadly, to me at least, under the politically correct pressure to declare evolution a scientific theory, it looks as if option #2 is being pursued.
Finally, upon sleeping on the question, there is a way legitimately to write a POV article in a NPOV manner, and that is to include a disclaimer at the very beginning that the article is a report on how a particular group perceives the issues. Then the inclusion or exclusion of any particular statement will not be considered POV on the part of Wikipedia, rather POV on the part of portrayed group. I have added such a disclaimer.
Melamed 17:05, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that William M. Connolley made a change, with the claim "in academia" was there already. but a check of previous versions shows that that is a lie. What does he take us for, . . . fools?
Melamed 17:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
===[[Welbesology]]=== Is the study of rumored or mythological teachers that are presumed by many to exist, but for which proof does not yet exist. In mythology, they would teach Anthropology, Social Sciences or Theories of Knowledge. Illustrates the fact that truth is never certain, since misinformation is common.
This was contributed by a certain mr. 4 numbers and this is his only contribution. Partly copied from the cryptozoology description. Google gives nothing.
Also, I have some additional suggestions for removal:
There was no reply so I'm doing it. Gadykozma 13:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Better late than never. Can you give some references to this? I kind of know this theory is currently not at its highest in popularity, but that's a far cry from actually being fringe. Gadykozma 19:33, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC) Andries, sorry for removing brainwashing without discussion, it got carried away by the inertia of the removal of the other psychology stuff. If you want, lets discuss it now. Gadykozma 18:29, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've added the Biophotons to the list. It seems to a mostly German contribution to this corpus, but I've just checked the articles made it to the english Wikipedia and some little edit struggles are seen. The finer points of classifying as proto- or pseudoscience I've left open so far. One point of possible confusion: Biophotonics exist and is rather legitimate but boring and sometimes hyped to get the funding. It has no connections per se with Biophotons, but the Biophotonists are sometimes trying to take over the term and the article. Pjacobi 08:38, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Dear User:66.81.121.107, the theory of evolution is a mainstream scientific theory, which has been the subject of widespread testing, including the observation of predicted, but not previously observed, species in the fossil record, DNA evidence, and the direct observation of evolution in the environment and the laboratory. Calling other people "Ignoramii and illogics" is unlikely to advance the acceptance of your arguments here: we have a policy that contributors are expected to be polite to one another, and refrain from personal attacks. You might also want to note the Wikipedia:three revert rule. -- The Anome 03:03, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Have re-inserted this, which was briefly in the article.
I agree that aether was never experimentally proven, but I understand that many scientists agreed it was a strong if untested hypothesis before experimental proof became available. If anyone can demonstrate otherwise I'll stop objecting and use something else (e.g. creationism) as the example of a previously mainstream thought now regarded as nonsense. The Land 19:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 21:15, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)) With the new wording, I guess its OK, ish. Mainstream is more accurate than sound.
Does Catastrophism really deserve to be listed as a Pseudo-science since it is potentially verifiable/falsifiable.
I have removed most of the additions made by 172.130.213.107 as shown in this diff. There were a few problems. The user changed the introduction to note that theories without experimental evidence were listed. S/he then listed philosophical topics such as interpretation of quantum mechanics, that are perfectly valid fields of inquiry depsite having no experimental grounding. S/he then went on to express a common misconception by adding force carrier. I know, some people like to deny the existence of quarks or electrons or the far side of the moon because we can't "see" them. But force carriers are part of quantum electrodynamics, what some popular science authors call the best-tested physical theory in existence. There is ample evidence.
A few other theories were added on the basis that the experimental evidence supporting them is insufficient. I don't think it's a particularly helpful redefinition of this list to add random elements of mainstream scientific theories just because some arbitrarily high standard of evidence set by the author hasn't been reached. We can certainly distinguish between popular theories and fringe theories in an NPOV way, and I think such a categorisation is useful to our readers. -- Tim Starling 06:32, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
How can "many in the "mainstream" scientific community consider to be "fringe" or pseudoscientific" be allowed in a NPOV article? -Anon
The article is disputed on it's accuracy because these are not included:
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.56.7.1 ( talk • contribs) 18:29, 22 June 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with Anon and agree with Fastfission. The theories mentioned are all based on observations. Most of them are attempts to draw together observations on the microscopic and macroscopic levels. They are all rapidly evolving as further experimental evidence comes to light. They do not qualify as 'alternative or speculative'. In a hundred year's time observations may have conclusively discounted the superstring model; in which case, if it stil lhas adherents, it should be listed here. The Land 15:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Fastfission and disagree with Anon. At the current time none of the above fit within the scope of the page. While there are disputes about the hypothesises lists, none are thoroughly discredited by empirical evidence or nonsensical in light of established empirically proven scientific theories. Ohwilleke 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to tell why the poster believes that this should be added from the post. Also, this page applies to matters that purport to be scientific theories. Events within the scope of written history generally wouldn't be a scientific theory. Linquistics might be, but without knowing what claims made in Macedonian linguistics are involved (certainly not the existence of subjects, objects and verbs, and probably something to do with the origins of the language, one would presume), it is hard to determine if it fits. Ohwilleke 23:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the name of this page attracts a lot of confusion over what should be included in it. I think if we drop "speculative" it would be a lot more to the point. I'd almost consider replacing "alternative" with "non-mainstream". The point is, these are theories which are not accepted by the mainstream scientific community or considered by said community to be outside the bounds of scientific inquiry or scientific practice; the name should reflect this a bit more clearly, as at the moment it lends itself to a lot of ambiguity such as that from our anon friend here who doesn't seem to get the point. -- Fastfission 19:21, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How about calling it: List of fringe theories? -- brian0918 ™ 15:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed Mirror Matter for the following reason. One could argue that it is a fringe theory because only a limited number of physicists work on it (about 20). So, it fits the definition given in the introduction in this respect. It is not, however a crackpot theory, because you can publish articles on it in, say, Phys. Rev. D. See the reference list of the article mirror matter
My objection against inclusing mirror matter in the list of alternative theories is that it is the only non-crackpot theory in the list. So, it has been singled out for some reason. It is not the only non-crackpot theory that fits the criteria, though. I could write down a big list of non-crackpot theories that can also be included.
I.m.o., until such a comprehensive list of non-crackpot theories on which a limited number of physicists work on is compiled, it is not correct to include just one non-crackpot theory in the list.
Count Iblis 12:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed point 5 (adhered to by a limited group), and removed the three remaining non-crackpot physics theories that fall in this category. As in case of mirror matter, it is not fair to single out a few theories. Also it is extremely insulting for professional physicists working on these theories to find out (e.g. after a google search) that their theory appears on a list consisting almost exclusively of crackpot theories like intelligent design.
Count Iblis 22:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure why acupuncure is present in this list of "disputed" theories. Acupuncture has been proven to heal with some scientific theories formulated to explain the recorded effects, definately placing this technique into the realm of the plausible. From the American Medical Association's website: "Most often, acupuncture is used for acute or chronic pain relief, but some proponents also use it for smoking cessation and substance abuse treatment, asthma, arthritis, and other conditions. Endorphin release, stimulation of the peripheral nervous system, and pain mediation through the effects of other neuropeptides are currently thought to be the most likely conventional explanations for the effects of acupuncture." Thoughts?
We want a list of pseudoscientific theories. But alternative, speculative and/or disputed theories are not necessarily pseudoscientific. In fact, if a theory is indeed pseudoscientific it will usually be ignored by the scientific community. So, the term disputed certainly doesn't apply to pseudoscientific theories. In case of a pseudoscientific theory it's more of a case closed, period situation.
Legitimate science is full of lively debate. There are a lot of mainstream respectable alternative, speculative and disputed theories that respectable scientists are working on. These theories have nothing to do with pseudoscience.
Scientists will regard a theory as pseudoscientific if the theory cannot be true given what is known, not if they believe it isn't true. That's a very important distinction. Pseudoscientists will have you believe otherwise and will claim that their theory is rejected just because it isn't the scientist's favorite theory. We must therefore not play into the pseudoscientist's hands by listing theories here that are part of legitimate science.
Count Iblis
00:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Count Iblis 13:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
"Should we change the title?" Yes, because the title means something different than what the 4 listed criteria mean. Others have made the same point that what is disputed is much vaster than this list. This list is pretty much NOT disputed by most, except the particular believers. (That's rephasing what you say in the first paragraph.) What to change it to, I don't know.
Count Iblis says: "I could write down a big list of non-crackpot theories that can also be included. I.m.o., until such a comprehensive list of non-crackpot theories on which a limited number of physicists work on is compiled, ..." Such a list would be very interesting. Most likely place from which new facts/theories to arise. I encourage you to do it if you're up for it. GangofOne 05:56, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
GangofOne, perhaps this should be a 'list of pseudoscientific theories'? About the list of non-crackpot theories, I have thought about that a bit more but that wouldn't be practical. I would guess that at least a few percent, perhaps more, of all published theories/ideas would qualify to be on that list. To give you just a few examples taken from the things I've included on wikipedia:
Theories that support the idea that the
DAMA/NaI has detected dark matter.
Theories that claim that dark matter consists of [simp|strongly interacting massive particles]. I've given only a few references here, but there are at least a few hundred pubications in this field. But still most physicists working on dark matter don't think that dark matter is strongly (self) interacting. So, technically this is somewhat of a fringe idea. But science isn't about conflicts between believers and non believers of certain theories. If you write an article about strongly interacting dark matter then the referee won't reject your paper just because he doesn't think that dark matter is strongly interacting. You may not even believe it yourself! You write the paper, not because you believe that the theory is true, but because you have found that the known observational evidence allows for the theory to be true. Your paper can then prompt other scientists to try to close the window allowing for your theory to be true. This then leads to a better understanding of the properties of dark matter.
What about
mirror matter? Just like in case of
simps, there are a large number of publications
see here. Then there is the idea of broken mirror symmetry (I never had the time to write about that here).
What about
Q-balls,
B-balls,
strange quark matter,
exotic baryons?
Needless to say, there are many many more of such theories out there that most scientists (who work in the field) don't believe in. In many cases the people who work on these theories don't really believe in them themselves! But as I wrote above, science (unlike religion) is not about belief :)
Count Iblis
13:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
From what I can gather, this list was originally intended to be one of pseudoscience but the NPOV renaming was too charitable toward "crackpot" theories. I think there is an important distinction to be made here between ironic science and pseudoscience. Ironic science often is well within the mainstream, and is called such because it's theories are not empirically testable. For example, research into the origins of life is an ironic science. Even if such a theory were to lead to creation of life in a laboratory, one would still not know that it occured the same way the first time. String theory also falls into this category because it does not make any predictions that can be observed. (The big bang theory on the other hand predicted cosmic background radiation) Most ironic sciences are based on sound reasoning and the practitioners cannot be faulted because the nature of their subject defies clasical empiricism. In contrast, those who adhere to pseudoscience are guilty of discarding reason and ignoring evidence. Lack of verification does not make the theories of ironic science pseudoscientific in the sense that that term is commonly used, but they are speculative and often disputed. If the title remains unchanged, then all ironic sciences should added. However, I do not believe that this is in the spirit of the list, and a better solution would be to use the same title used in the pseudoscience article: "Feilds often associated with pseudoscience" (The list within the article should probably be removed or added to this page) This is almost a "weasel word" violation of NPOV because "often associated" doesn't attribute the claim to any particular person or group, but I think it's preferable to directly calling these theories pseudoscience (that might offend some non-rational people). -- AAMiller 16:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I think that this page ought to be rethought a bit. First of all, the list of reasons for inclusion is inappropriate. As-is, it reads
Yet look again: Creationism claims to have experimental/observational validation, and string theory is not yet testable. So back off a second and ask "what is the real issue here"?
The real focus of this page is theories which are not accepted as factual or reasonably possible by the scientific community and yet are also in some way significant. This They seems to fall into several catergories:
So then what is left out and why? The reasons for leaving something out are three-fold:
I would also suggest tagging the theories on this list with a word or two in bold and parenthseis stating why it is on this list. For example:
So overall the entries in this list are theories that are notable for one reason or another and yet are not considered to be tenable by the scientific community. I think that this is a much sounder basis for inclusion in this list than worrying about the reasons for its being like that. After all, Wegener's view of continental drift would have qulified for this list 50 years ago. Today, it is the view of the continents being immobile that is discredited. -- EMS | Talk 16:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Ohwilleke 04:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC) The fringe theories category is the problematic one. Where regularly peer reviewed journal articles are present and the evidence is inconclusive, it doesn't belong here, even if it is amde of minority views. Discredited or pseudoscientific is a completely different thing.
Two comments: First, we need to decide if we are using "theory" in the scientific sense of the word or if we are using it in the colloquial sense of the word. Second, some of these theories may be classified by more than one of the above descriptor. If we do format it on a way based on this or based on a similar breakdown, we should keep that in mind. JoshuaZ 04:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice to have you re-evalaute these using the criteria that I can up with above. For fringe theories, I think that the stanards for that designation should be
Your remarks point out the extent to which the list is based of very subjective criteria which involve scientific acceptability instead of the lack of scientific acceptance. For example, in accupunture it amy be qi that is discredited instead of accupunture itself. -- EMS | Talk 05:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I added the vaccine theory of autism. Though widely held, the Institute of Medicine report finds no evidence for the the theory and statements by the IOM and the American Academy of Pediatrics firmly establish the theory as outside the realm of the accepted practice of medicine. -- 149.142.201.98 03:38, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I added alchemy under "Physics" for lack of elsewhere to put it. This certainly qualifies as a pseudoscience and felt it should be included, even though it is essentially "dead". If anyone has any objections to including it, then it may be removed. Rt66lt, August 3, 2005
Someone has some explainin' to do. How can applying the scientific approach be speculative ? Franc28 22:33, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
And this newest update is another bungling. Mutations are not random even in standard Neo-Darwinism. That's an old urban legend that comes from simplistic vulgarisation of the topic. Franc28 07:22, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
If you include memetics here you could just as well include all of the controversial but legitimate scientific theories/ideas. Count Iblis 13:57, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
I thought that theories contained the requirement that they be verifiable via experiment. Intelligent design, for example, is not verifiable via experiment. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 09:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I already started to improve this article but it looks to be an impossible task, according to me it doesn't belong in Wikipedia at all -- it's the kind of junk yard article that Wikipedia can do without. The above comment sketches the problem: "xyz is indeed a disputed theory and not popular among physicists, but it's indecent to have it listed on a page that includes the Flat earth theory. Oh well. If that's what the mob decides."
To make de facto a blacklist of everything non-mainstream seems incompatible with Wikipedia's purposes, and possibly constitutes Original Research as well. The best solution I see is to copy-paste useful parts to other places, and then feed the article to the sharks. But maybe someone else has another solution? Harald88 21:24, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, except for the POV word "crank list". And I see input for at least four existing articles (which could be linked):
- pseudo science (not testable according to generally accepted scientific standards)
- obsolete scientific theories
- fringe science (little corroborated or impopular scientific theories)
However, I don't know if enough peer reviewed literature exists on these subjects. Anyway, this "collect all" article can be spun off to give examples to those articles on precise, existing subjects, and next each article can be discussed separately.
Harald88 23:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
We should only keep a list containing crackpot theories. In the previous VFD I voted like this:
keep. I would suggest that point 5: Adhered to by a limited group be dropped as a criteria for incusion in the list. This is too vague and will lead to disputes. Only crackpot theories should be included. To decide whether or not you are dealing with a crackpot theory is simple. just check out peer reviewed scientific journals (with the exception of the Journal of Creation Science, of course). Count Iblis 15:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) Count Iblis 01:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I now do have another suggestion though: make this a list of theories and hypothesis -- that's again a neutral and straightforward subject, without inherent (improper) discrimination. I now think that it would be useful to have such a list, and independent of the popularity (it should only be sufficiently notable) Harald88 07:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's a thought: Call the list "List of Non-prevailing Theories and Hypotheses" and separate into groupings: 1) Current theories not prevailing; 2) Formerly prevailing theories but overturned, 3) Testable hypotheses, 4) Non-testable hypotheses with current notable adherents, and 5) Non-testable hypotheses with no current notable adherents. Something like that, as I'm uncertain my language is precise enough. — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work 08:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I now found by chance the article proposal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Title_Neutrality Obviously the subject matter is similar, as well as the issues about "crackpot" and so on. It enforces my recommandation for a neutral theorie list (and no ranking in crackpot etc.!) just here above. Harald88 23:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
In addition to the above, there was today (not on this page but on the main page) a question why an article that is titled "Talk:List of alternative, speculative and disputed theories", and that describes itself as a list of theories that are "considered to be fringe or pseudoscientific by the mainstream scientific community" should have as possible criterion for a theory that it's "not mainstream". Is there any need to explain that "alternative" +"disputed" + "considered [...] by mainstream" + "respectable theories that are simply the minority view" imply such? This independent of the question if examples of that are currently included.
Listed theories that are currently included but about which there may be no complete concensus that, as listed, they belong to any of the other 4 categories (except perhaps in "mainstream", but that is an invalid, for circular argument!):
- Irreducible complexity - Dowsing - Flood geology - Acupuncture - AIDS reappraisal - Bates Method - Homeopathy - Vitamin C - Autodynamics - Luminiferous aether - Steady state theory - Scalar waves - Parapsychology - Graphology - Recovered memory
Harald
My reply was to Hob Gadling's comment; With the 5 categories I mean the criteria in the intro of the list. Harald88 14:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Should TRIZ really be listed under Divination? It doesn't even seem to belong on this page. Bobby1011 20:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
A disctinction has been made between Kinesiology and Applied Kinesiology. But both are not science. It's the same bullshit, but thanks to this "difference", kinesiologues can say "no, I don't do AK, I'm a serious kinesiologue". Serious kinesiology doesn't exist, and if some governments reconize kineziology (it's written on the French page, maybe Quebec ???) it's a serious error. In France, a baby died because his parents was kinesiologue and wanted to attend him only with kinesiology. You can read what is written in the both articles, if this theories are disputed, it's because it's not science at all, and it's presented like a medicine, so it's very dangerous. I think we must make one only artice, because this 2 articles have been created to make an advertising for this dangerous activity. If some doctors would read this articles, they would see that it could be dangerous when people think it's an efficient method.
A french article linked with kinesiology (Méditation Kinémantra), is about a meditation method used in kinesiology. They tell that its efficient is proved by science. But they also say that you can have your own religion too... It's the first time I read that in an article about science, health or medicine... In France, this movement is suspected to be a dangerous sect.
So, I hope serious people will take care of it. If you have a scientific debate with kinesiologues, I'm sure it will be short, you will see that it's not a science at all. I'm french so I can't edit articles in english, it would be horrible. I'm trying to work on the french version. I hope you will do something about it.
Korr 11:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
An appropriate name for this wiki should probably be "alternative theories generally not accepted by the majority of the science community", but the current title is long enough. I find it seriously hard to believe that the bickerers in this talk page that have bloated it to a nearly unreadable size, can't comprehend the purpose of an article like this. I wanted to read this list to find alternative theories not generally taught as main stream, not read a bloated talk page to find out why the article is disputed. I don't even know if an equivalent statement like this has already been brought forth, I don't have time to read such a novel.
So, if a theory is generally more accepted by science than it is not, just leave it be and off of this list.
Thank you,
--
Filthy swine
00:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I trimmed considerably the line about zero point origin of inertia, which included detail that properly should be in the linked article. (In this case, the linked article is nonexistent and I don't have time to actually write it, sorry). I am a little surprised to see the ZPOI immediately under the Time Cube entry -- I knew Haisch and studied some of his earlier ZP papers when I was a graduate student at Stanford (and knew a lot more QED than I know now) -- and he was considerably more coherent and the ideas considerably more plausible than a lot of the other stuff on this page. In particular, it seemed to me that ZPOI might be wrong but it certainly didn't fit into the "not even wrong" category. I'm leaving it here since it's definitely an alternative theory to the usual Higgs mechanism, but I'd love to see someone write a bit more about what they are doing these days. zowie 05:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The article says " Some currently respected theories, such as e.g. plate tectonics or the idea that stones could fall from the sky (meteorites) were rejected just because they contradicted popular belief amongst scientists, not because they were in conflict with known experimentally established results of that time. "
In the case of the predecessor of plate techtonics (i.e. Continental drift) it was not accepted not because it conflicted known results but because there was not sufficient evidence in its favor to accept it. I think that is pretty much the case for meteorites too - the idea that rocks fell from the sky did not conflict with any experimental results, but there was insufficient evidence to support it. Bubba73 (talk), 17:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Anything which by admission the idea of a single individual (and returns only about 800 google hits) simply is not important enough for wikipedia. The argument "let the reader decide its notability" simply doesn't hold under wiki rules. Wikipedia is not an advertisement for people's pet theories. I am therefore removing the entry again. JoshuaZ 21:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
"Many of the items on this list conform with scientific method but conflict with the well established views held by a scientific elite who have reputations and status to loose by accepting change. See work of Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend". I hold this to be a valid point of view worthy of inclusion.
I see that some things I added have been discussed and excluded already , however the focus of this article is confused. Is it just crackpot ideas, is it minority science , is it bad science. What is it? Needs to be split into several clearly defined articles. Lumos3 06:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I suggest there are 3 categories:-
This is a respectable theory, albeit controversial. To put this theory in a list containing theories like Flat Earth Theory and Ley Lines is just stupid. Count Iblis 00:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Vitamin C because it does not fit the criteria for this page. See the Vitamin C article. The debate on vitamin C and health is a respectable theory conducted between scientists.
Lumos3 08:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I think its a bad idea, but maybe the proposer can explain at greater length? --- CH 17:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I am against the merger. One article is about a type of person and the other is about theories. The list is referenced in at least one article where it wouldn't make sense to link to "crank". Also, not all such theories are by cranks. Bubba73 (talk), 17:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The list in Crank (person) is redundant, and at least it should be merged. Bob A 18:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the list in Crank (person) makes sense separately as a list of topics about which cranky theories are often proposed, rather than a list of individual theories. Henning Makholm 19:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Nothing has happened since May and I just rewrote Crank (person) to remove entirely the previous overlap, so I removed the merger flag since it seems this is now moot. --- CH 08:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
If the Internet had existed in times past...
all of these were, at the time of their discovery, disputed hotly. but they are now "commonly accepted." And some of them had no proof whatsoever against them.
We don't add hotly debated controversial theories here; only crackpot theories are added to te list. Crackpot theories are not hotly debated at all in the scientific community. Neither of the three examples you gave would have qualified for inclusion in the list. Count Iblis 19:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that "Cold Fusion" should go somewhere in this article...unless it's considered a hoax...although there are those who believe that it is still possible. NCartmell 22:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
This is necessary, because the title doesn't cover the content of the list. Count Iblis 13:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Was this article previously named (by previously, I mean an hour ago!) 'List of controversial, disputed, speculative theories'? Why does every theory in wikipedia have to be referenced in terms of science and non-science? I'm detecting this bias more often than not in Wikipedia articles. I suppose it would reflect my interests. Anyway... It the article should remain with the original title. If not, should alternative histories be added to this pseudoscience page? Well I suppose Atlantis and Lemuria are already here.
Also, the entire introduction has been changed. The commentary about theories moving between boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable by mainstream and minority groups, I think, is very important, because it highlights that their are at least two points of view about the articles contents. It is simply labelled pseudoscience now, which in my readings of Wikipedia are sometimes likened to cast off ideas ready for the waste disposal bin and should not even be included in an encyclopedia. More bias. I would suggest reverting to the way the article was originally entitled and introduced. It was comprehensible with the short outline... now it is just introduced as a boring pseudo-list. Sections entitled 'pseudoscience' are everywhere on Wikipedia. Maybe this article could be retitled again as the List of Research into Pseudoscientific Theories.. If not, maybe we need to warn the reader with an NPOV tag? Drakonicon 14:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I have never before heard the theory of technological singularity described as pseudoscience. It seems to me to be based on sound extrapolation and not pathological science. Can somebody explain the reasoning behind putting it here? If there's a good reason of which I'm unaware, that's fine, but it seems at odds with many other theories here. Greyscale 09:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Should this be removed? It seems to me that the basic idea of eugenics is simply selective breeding, which is fully supported by evolution. The specific theory described in this article is a bit beyond what classic eugenics covers, but I don't see it as necessarily being unscientific. --- DrLeebot 14:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The first and fourth criteria presented constitute what Karl Popper called the 'Baconian Myth'. There is no way of proving that sufficient experiments have been done to 'prove' a theory. However, only one is required to disprove it. Ergo, the scientific endeavour seeks to construct experiments to refute established theories. Long established theories have withstood this merciless bombardment, initial speculations have not, but that in itself does not constitute grounds for their dismissal out of hand.
A pseudo-scientific theory is one that cannot be disproved, even in principle. These are 'theories' for which the adherents will always find supporting evidence, and turn a blind eye to the many counter-examples. It is not the supporting evidence that is important - a single counter example is sufficient to refute a theory. Gordon Vigurs 10:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
No we don't. A single counter-example is all that is needed. Unfortunately, many of science's 'sacred cows' do not stand up to this criterion. However, much of pseudo-science relies on intrinsic untestability. Theories are irrefutable because it is impossible to construct experiments to refute them, as such they cannot possibly be considered science. Gordon Vigurs 19:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
That you need a theory to start with is precisely Popper's position. If you cannot predict the bounds of error before conducting the experiment, the entire endeavour is pointless. Again, it is merely because the criterion is too difficult to meet that it is rejected. The alternative of requiring 'sufficient' corroborative results is nonsense - how many, and who decides? Gordon Vigurs 07:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the cross-reference to the Demarcation problem I knew the discussion had to be here somewhere . Gordon Vigurs 18:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is supposed to use a NPOV, right? But claiming that mainstream scientists call creationism a pseudo-science is fair just in case that the "less-tream" scientists also make a point against evolution.
According to a recent poll, 44% of the americans believe in creationism, 38% in theistic evolution and 18% in atheistic evolution. 44% is almost the half of America! Calling it "mainstream" is just refer to people to work based on consensus, not scientifical data.
Evolutionary theories like the Big Bang, Continental drift and evolution itself have been largely debated and proved wrong but "mainstream" scientists still deny it. Evolution, Big Bang and Continental drifts ARE pseudo-sciences and they'll never stop being that way, cause there's no way to bring God back (according to 82% of americans) and make him "scientifically" create the whole universe again, no matter when (4001 a.C. or many many billion years ago) or how (evolution or creation)
What I'm trying to say is that Wikipedia's NPOV policy should be respected and, as it goes, do not support neither "mainstream science" nor "less-tream science" cause both of them my have right arguments for what they believe and that is just the right thing to do: debate. Wikipedia shouldn't call creation sciences pseudo-scientifical without calling evolution pseudo-scientifical, just depends on which side would you take: "mainstream" or "less-tream".
And it's not even mainstream at all! 44% of americans believe in creation, 56% in evolution, and there is a AWESOME rise of creationism in Darwin's homeland, UK.
And I'll point something else. Cryptozoology is as much as pseudo-science as most physical theories and geological theories are. Cryptozoology is a "science of theories" cause it tries to prove the existence of a certain animal or plant by scientifical methods, and there are millions and millions of proofs supporting most cryptids to be true. It doesn't even fail Occam's Razor, cause we all know that MANY animales were once thought to be extinct or mythical (like gorillas, okapis, coelacanths, saolas) and they turned out to be real animals, so calling cryptozoology a pseudo-science is just arrogant "mainstream" consensus.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Arturo 7 ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 2 August 2006
The same thing for creation. Me being a creationist, I accept creation as just a theory as it cannot be proven right, but at least it's falsifiable and it cannot be proven wrong.
You can prove that the world's crust was created in 3 minutes according to polonium haloes in continental granite, but you cannot prove that the universe was created in 6 days. Trying to prove THAT is senseless, as it's a falsifiable belief. You can prove that the world was created about 6,000 years ago according to astronomical, chemical, physical and geological laws; but you cannot positively prove that there was Adam and Eve nor the literal 6 days, just that the earth is young. They're falsifiable beliefs; they cannot be proven wrong but they cannot be proven right.
I believe in 6-day creation as a matter of faith, not science as it cannot be scientifically proved. Perhaps evolution, continental drift and big bang can be proved wrong, and they've already been proved wrong. What I'm trying to say is that according to the science concept, the pseudoscience term should not be used just for theories that are dismissed by mainstream consensus, perhaps every single theory that cannot be proven neither positively nor negatively. Science is a fact, faith is a belief.-- Arturo 7 19:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently editing a book on it using the Laws of Epistemology (coined by me). Using the Epistemic Law of Dicotomy, we got 2 kinds of knowledge: Faith and Science. Faith is to believe something that you cannot prove positively true, but you cannot prove it wrong, just like the 6 Day Creation account in the Bible. Science is to know something that is proved truth, such as the weight of things, size, mathematics and all that stuff.
Then I got that everything must be doubted to prove it true. That's the Epistemic Law of Doubt. Nothing can be proved true without doubting it. So according to the concepts of faith and science, they both cannot be proved wrong. But what about "faith dogmas" and "scientific theories"? Part of the Third Law of Epistemology (Doubt) is that. You should be able to doubt something and prove it true, but you can't.
Scientific theories and catholic dogmas share the same background: both are suppositions and can be proved right or wrong according to empirical studies. The difference is that catholic dogmas can be proved false and they'll still believe in it.
You cannot prove wrong the creation, as evolution is based on assumptions, something that does not agree with Occam's razor.
And what I tried to say is that you CAN prove the world to be 4,000 years old and the earth crust being created in 3 minutes, but still you can't prove that the world was created in 6 days. If you believe in God, scientifically you'll KNOW as a factual truth that God created the universe about 6,000 years ago but you won't prove that it all happened in 6 days. It could have been 6 months or 6 years! Empirically it's impossible to prove that they were 6 literal days but it's also impossible to prove that they were wrong. That's what differs creation as a theory and faith, theories can be proven wrong like evolution and continental drift and faith dogmas cannot be proved wrong. But that all doesn't make them truth.
I BELIEVE in a 6-Day Creation 6,000 years ago and I has been proved the earth to be 6000 years old, but you cannot prove the 6-Day proccess or Jesus walking on water to be truth nor wrong. That epistemic concept for unknown is something really amazing. Soon I'll write about it on my user page. Happy editing! -- Arturo #7 21:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Creationism is pseudoscience because it is a body of scientific-sounding arguments designed to dress up a faith-based belief. There is no test that creationists agree would falsify the theory (as Arturo 7 just pointed out), so it is not falsifiable and hence not part of the scientific process. However, creationists and creationist literature point to many phenomena that they claim support their hypothesis that the world is young, and describe those phenomena in scientific-sounding words. Hence creationism (as currently practiced/presented) appears to be science but is not. Hence it is pseudoscience. zowie 22:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
•Jim62sch• 23:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
According to epistemic principles, the argument of authority does not mean anything. A few millenia ago the people thought that electricity was fake, the earth was flat and that there were unicorns and phoenixes going around as a FACT. Nowadays we know that the earth is spheric, that electricity does exist and that unicorns and phoenixes may exist.
Pseudo-science does NOT refer to mainstream consensus, it refers to theories that are NOT proved right. You can prove continental drift, big bang and evolution wrong. They're just THEORIES, and theories are NOT science cause science MEANS factual truth.
Evolution, big bang, continental drift, creation, Jesus walking on water and stuff are THEORIES so they are NOT scientifical.
A "scientifical theory" is a theory that tries to look like science but it's not as it's not a fact. Faith dogmas like Mary's virginity and Jesus' chastity are THEORIES that try to look like faith-based but they're NOT.
Pseudo-science EQUALS something that cannot be proven right, perhaps astrology may be proved easier than evolution.
ALL theories are pseudoscientifical as they're NOT scientifical, and calling a theory scientifical is as dumb as saying that there were winged cows these days.
WIKIPEDIA REQUIRES A NPOV.-- Arturo #7 22:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Faith: Belief in something that cannot be proven wrong Sciencie: Knowledge of the universe as a factual truth
Catholic dogmas are theories, as they have not yet be proven right and there's a lot of stuff proving them wrong. Catholic dogmas do not believe in something that is not non falsifiable, they consist in the invention of supernatural altered processes against common scientifical laws. For example, there are no historic results for Mary's virginity in the Bible.
Theories are also a belief, not science. They have not been proven right, and their acceptance and belief depend on how much faith do you use for it.-- Arturo #7 02:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
: Epistemic definitions... Faith: Belief in something that cannot be proven wrong Sciencie: Knowledge of the universe as a factual truth
This has a certain specious appeal, but reflects a certain common naivety. Supposing we somehow came across 'factual truth', known technically as 'episteme', how do we prove it is, and not more human created knowledge 'doxa'? What experiment can we conduct to 'prove' that we have the ultimate theory?
To quote Einstein: 'There could be no fairer destiny for any...theory than it should point the way to a more comprehensive theory in which it lives on, as a limiting case.'
Dogma has absolutely no place in science, everything is up for grabs. It is right and proper that revered theories should be continuously bombarded with experiments to try to refute them. The best we can say is that a well tested theory is definitely superior to one which has been tested and found wanting.
Pseudo scientific theories are either intrinsically untestable, or have been tested and found wanting. Creationism fails the first test, hence the second cannot be applied.
However, the Wikipedia policy as to what consititutes a valid encyclopedia entry, is in direct conflict with this fundamental philosophy of science, in trying to present 'doxa' as irrefutable 'episteme'. Perhaps all science articles should be deleted, and only lists of historical or biographical facts retained. Gordon Vigurs 10:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Creationism fails because the faithful will interpret any available evidence as supporting it. For this reason it is irrefutable, and hence it is not science. My point is that science may have theories that are 'factual truth', but there is no way of proving that they are. The best we can do is identify what is false, ergo only falsifiable theories are admissible. Now an encyclopedia is based on the premise that the knowledge contained within it is indisputable, but if it is indisputable, it is bad science. Gordon Vigurs 20:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
There doesn't have to be a complex classification system, but something has to distinguish between potentially accurate theories and the completely bogus ones. Time Cube should not be anywhere near Heim's Theory, for example.
Whats with mv'ing the article? I've locked the mv permissions for the moment until this gets talked about properly. I'm happy with the current title. Other opinions? William M. Connolley 20:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, actually looking at the article (:-) I see a couple of problem inclusions:
LSToG is wrong, but was a not unreasonable theory at the time. Not psuedoscience though. The LE pages sez its an obsolete sci theory - and that seems fair enough to me... Oh, and I see that the intro mentions LE. There should be some system for ranking sensible-at-the-time-but-not-now theories against currently-proposed-but-junk William M. Connolley 20:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I found Superseded scientific theory (via the AFD...) William M. Connolley 07:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In an attempt to clarify what people think, I've removed Le Sage and Aether from the list (while the page is protected, which is naughty, but still). I'm arguing that these are obsolete, not psuedoscience. Is that fair? OTOH people looking for these on the list won't now find them... William M. Connolley 14:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The luminiferous aether was not so much disproved, as rendered superfluous. It was discarded using Occam's razor as unnecessary. Gordon Vigurs 08:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the POV tag. Let's discuss it here first. Let's first focus on entries that are now on the list that shouldn't be on the list or vice versa. If there are any problems about how pseudoscience is defined then that's a less urgent problem if that hasn't led to any disputes about actual entries on the list. Count Iblis 22:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Please come and vote :) Count Iblis 01:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Orthomolecular medicine does not belong here. Orthomolecular medicine is molecular medicine on the natural side with (usually) unpatentable substances for individualized physiological uses, often not yet accepted for conventional medical practice in the US. Orthomed is based on the work of a number of *outstanding* scientists (pls note the plural carefully). Orthomolecular medicine areas may sometimes classify as protoscience, some claims may require modification as data and experience are added, and some claimants whose statements may be classed as pseudoscience may "borrow" the title - this happens in many fields too. Any and all are invited to read the OM talk page first. Please also read the vitamin C discussion above.-- 69.178.41.55 05:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Even the JAMA has come round on this:
Vitamins for chronic disease prevention in adults: clinical applications. Fletcher RH, Fairfield KM in JAMA 2002 Jun 19;287(23):3127-9 PMID: 12069676 “Most people do not consume an optimal amount of all vitamins by diet alone. Pending strong evidence of effectiveness from randomized trials, it appears prudent for all adults to take vitamin supplements..... We recommend that all adults take one multivitamin daily..... It is reasonable to consider a dose of 2 ordinary [i.e. RDA levels] multivitamins daily in the elderly”
Vitamins for chronic disease prevention in adults: scientific review. Fairfield KM, Fletcher RH in JAMA 2002 Jun 19;287(23):3116-26 PMID: 12069675 “Although the clinical syndromes of vitamin deficiencies are unusual in Western societies, suboptimal vitamin status is not [unusual].”
-- Michael C. Price talk 19:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Here're three studies on folic acid and colon cancer:
Multivitamin use, folate, and colon cancer in women in the Nurses' Health Study. Giovannucci E, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Hunter DJ, Fuchs C, Rosner BA, Speizer FE, Willett WC in Ann Intern Med 1998 Oct 1;129(7):517-24 PMID: 9758570 Long-term use (>15 years) of folate-containing multivitamin supplements produced an almost 5-fold reduction in the incidence of colon cancer. Other cancers not analysed. The protective effect (relative to age-matched controls) increased with the duration of supplementation. The relative risk of colon cancer over the period 1980-1994 (against folate intake in 1980, without adjusting for other vitamins) was: 1.0 (<= 200 ug/d), 0.92 (201-300 ug/d), 0.79 (301-400 ug/d) & 0.69 (>400 ug/d). This risk declined with time: comparing the >400 with the <=200 folate ug/d group the risk declined from 0.85 (1980-mid1988) to 0.56 (mid1988-1994). Amongst multivitamin users (pooling all folate categories) the risk declined with duration of use: 1.02 (4 years use), 0.83 (5-9yrs), 0.80 (10-14 yrs) & 0.25 (15+ yrs). Women who had 15+ years of multivitamin use and >300 ug/d energy-adjusted folate (in 1980) had a RR of only 0.22[CI: 0.05-0.88] compared with users with <15 years multivitamin use and 201-300 ug/d (>RDA) of energy-adjusted folate. FDA regulations forbad the use of 400ug of folate in multivitamin supplements prior to 1973, which limited the ability for a longer -term follow-up. The study abstract concludes: “Long-term use of multivitamins may substantially reduce risk for colon cancer. This effect may be related to the folic acid contained in multivitamins.”
Are dietary factors involved in DNA methylation associated with colon cancer? Slattery ML, Schaffer D, Edwards SL, Ma KN, Potter JD in Nutr Cancer 1997;28(1):52-62 PMID: 9200151 “We did not observe strong independent associations between folate, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, methionine, or alcohol and risk of colon cancer after adjusting for body size, physical activity, cigarette smoking patterns, energy intake, and dietary intake of fiber and calcium. However, when assessing the associations between colon cancer and a composite dietary profile based on alcohol intake, methionine, folate, vitamin B12, and vitamin B6, we observed a trend of increasing risk as one moved from a low- to a high-risk group”
Dietary intake of folic acid and colorectal cancer risk in a cohort of women. Terry P, Jain M, Miller AB, Howe GR, Rohan TE in Int J Cancer 2002 Feb 20;97(6):864-7 PMID: 11857369 “Folate is crucial for normal DNA methylation, synthesis and repair, and deficiency of this nutrient is hypothesized to lead to cancer through disruption of these processes. There is some evidence to suggest that relatively high dietary folate intake might be associated with reduced colorectal cancer risk, especially among individuals with low methionine intake. […] Folate intake was inversely associated with colorectal cancer risk (IRR = 0.6, 95% CI = 0.4-1.1, p for trend = 0.25). The inverse association was essentially similar among individuals with low and high methionine intake, and was similar for colon and rectal cancers when those endpoints were analyzed separately. Among individuals with low methionine intake, folate intake did not appear to lower the risk of rectal cancer, a finding that may be due, in part, to the low number of cases in the subgroup analysis. Overall, our data lend some support to the hypothesis that high folate intake is associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.” -- Michael C. Price talk 19:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This conversation belongs on
Talk:Orthomolecular medicine. From what I can tell, this is not a pseudiscience, and so I removed it.
linas
22:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
This list is an excellent alternative to category:pseudoscience whose existence is imo an NPOV violation (see WP:CG and WP:Categorization of people; the category namespace presents unique NPOV problems because it appears without annotation). I think topics on this list do need to be sourced. I strongly disagree with the idea that if something lacks scientific evidence in some respect and has been called PS in some respect by a critic, then it must be considered PS by the scientific community. Scientists generally comment on evidence or lack thereof. "Pseudoscience" is more a political and pejorative term. As such, no problem presenting views about PS on WP, but we do need to source them. cheers, Jim Butler( talk) 05:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
category:pseudoscience is hardly a violation of NPOV. I'm not sure, Jim Butler, what your exact dislike of this topic is (aside from its treatment of chiropractics) but you clearly appear to be trying to eliminate the topic from wiki. Perhaps you might be willing to explain why. •Jim62sch• 23:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
MichaelCPrice vandalized the article by deleting cited and referenced text, and falsely called it "restore vandalized text." -- Cri du canard 23:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that simply labeling these theories as pseudoscience is an NPOV violation. This is because the proponents of any of these theories will obviously contest that, and by simply stating that they are pseudoscience we're ignoring their viewpoint. Even though they're the minority, we still have to give them a modicum of respect, but make it clear they're in the minority.
This is why I'm proposing we move this page to List of theories commonly considered pseudoscientific. The summary of the list within the article should make it clear that by this we mean that a notable number of scientists would agree that this theory is pseudoscientific (and they are, of course, not outnumbered by those who believe it's valid). --- DrLeebot 13:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Please tell us exactly how the title List of pseudoscientific theories is "an WP:NPOV violation." WP:NPOV specifically singles out how to present pseudoscience at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience. Whether particular topics are pseudoscience (and hence included here) is dealt with at each topic's article. That they are part of this list is well within "represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories" as called for at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience. Furthermore, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Giving_"equal_validity" states specifically about pseudoscience "Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory..." Lastly, this supposed "NPOV issue" evaporates when one properly applies Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions which says "What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page? No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also in philosophy, history, physics, etc."
What's missing here is not a lack of neutrality, but an understanding of our neutrality policy. FeloniousMonk 20:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the opening paragraph states the criterion for inclusion quite clearly, whether we agree with them or not. Wiser minds can simply take the remainder with a pinch of salt. After all, we all enjoy a good pillory.
However, there is something incongruous about deciding what constitutes pseudo-science, using a criterion which pre-dates modern science, and was positively obstructive at the time. Also, an examination of practically any undergraduate science course at any Western university will show that philosophy is conspicuous by its absence. The majority of scientists conduct their careers on the basis of the same naive empiricism which is extant throughout society as a whole. Consequently the criterion adopted is rarely better than basic Baconian empiricism at its most naive. Gordon Vigurs 08:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
As I've proposed earlier, this page is clearly a wikipedia's NPOV policy violation as it treats many mainstreamly rejected theories, but is valid amongst a large group of people reagrding it as a valid scientifical theory, like creationism and some medical sciences. The original NPOV violation stated that pseudoscience refers to what mainstream science refers, in that case is an obvious mainstream POV. It'd be much better to choose a title that doesn't violate wiki's NPOV, and discuss why it shouldn't be labeled "non-mainstream list", as the page states that pseudosciences are sciences not positively recognized by the mainstream community. That is not the definition of a pseudoscience, it's most likely a "non-mainstream" one. Happy editing!-- Arturo #7 00:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the entire page violates NPOV. There is no useful definition of pseudoscience, and no consensus on what is or is not pseudoscience. I see just a big list of things that someone is opinionated about. A lot of the inclusions and omissions are very hard to justify. Sometimes a fringe or speculative idea gets proved correct, and all of sudden it is a work of genius. Roger 19:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)