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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Is the Special Branch really a secret police org? Thanx 68.39.174.150 11:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I am removing the FBI from this list of secret police organizations. The FBI is a national police force and not a secret police force - there is a substantial difference between these two definitions given by Wikipedia. Specifically, the secret police entry specifies that a secret police is only held accountable to the executive branch of government while the FBI is held accountable to Congressional reporting requirements and the federal court system. Inclusion of the FBI ignores the fact that the secret police entry specifically states that "Secret police differ from the domestic security agencies in modern liberal democracies, because domestic security agencies are generally subject to government regulation, reporting requirements, and other accountability measures" including published annual reports and specific delineation of responsibility under statute. If the FBI is to be included it must be clearly cited as to under what grounds it is included as a secret police organization. Any other commentary on the organization as a secret police organization should be included in the Criticism section of the FBI article itself. 207.250.239.174 ( talk) 22:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Why has secret police been limited to including only organisations in dictatorships? The definition of secret police cannot be so limited. The FBI should be restored to the list, along with similar non-uniformed organisations elsewhere Royalcourtier ( talk) 06:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Many of these are not secret police CIA operates outside the U.S. and if the FBI is included why not SIS or intelligence agencies of other countries not just the U.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Commander v99 ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
It sounds like there was an agreement among editors above to add the FBI (I assume the counter intelligence branch of the FBI was intended), the SIS (MI5) and the FSB to the list. They operate in secret (for example the identities of operatives are protected) and they protect the state. They may have become more humane than secret police in other states, but that does not automatically exclude them from the definition. As far as I can see, neither parliamentary nor judicial oversight are relevant to the definition. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 12:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The FSB is also not a real secret policy.-- Gerhardt Rauchfeldt ( talk) 09:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:23, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Since the page is protected, I am unable to edit this list. But I would like to recommend the inclusion of Uzbekistan's National Security Service. By numerous accounts, including three listed below, this organisation makes considerable use of torture and mass domestic surveillance on political opposition. It has even been alleged that the organisation was responsible for massacre of several hundred protestors in 2005 (see Andijan Massacre for details). I think this fits the requirements for inclusion.
https://iwpr.net/global-voices/uzbek-secret-police-roam-russian-prisons
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/uzbekistan/report-uzbekistan/
http://www.rferl.org/content/Former_Uzbek_Spy_Seeks_Asylum/1195372.html
37.9.61.83 ( talk) 16:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Is this page an article in an encyclopedia or a page to attack states which the US and the UK dislike or have problems with?! :-/ MarcusAureliusAntoninusMaximus1996 ( talk) 08:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Are you sure? Both references refer to the organisation as the Iranian "secret police". L.R. Wormwood ( talk) 13:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
More than 3 years ago, I suggested that this article be renamed "List of police and intelligence organizations in countries we don't like", which was the only description I could think of that actually matched the content. Visiting again now, nothing much has improved. It is a thoroughly crap article. However, I've been around too long to imagine that an AfD attempt could succeed. Zero talk 03:25, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems that it is not well-sourced enough, with one Telegraph source. Should it remain for now? Mellk ( talk) 15:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
1. the agencys as follows (department of homeland security, national security agency, all agency's within DHS or operating on their behalf, Tigerswan paramilitary organization, JTTF.) 2. now onto the citations proving these are in fact secret police forces THERE CITATIONS WAKE UP Memetrident ( talk) 16:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)memetrident
Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems that the majority of sources here are editorial commentaries, opinion pieces and such, written by a single author. According to Wikipedia in identifying reliable sources, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." - so if we are trying to list secret police organisations as a fact, these kind of sources would not help. I've even seen a few that do not label them as a 'secret police' organisation, those of news reports it seems that are actually much more reliable than those reports by single authors, who I've not seen to be reputable or known. Mellk ( talk) 14:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
This proves that Wikipedia is a propaganda source for the American regime I listed 30+ citiations and you didn't debunk anything all you did was slander well reputable news organizations and call everything that's not bought out by the government fake news and communist news you even admitted your one sided Ness therefore I concluded this website as a whole is a propaganda tool for the regime (USA ) Memetrident ( talk) 22:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)Memetrident
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I wanted to get input from other editors on whether they think it would be appropriate to use human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human rights watch as sources when listing secret police organizations. - SantiLak ( talk) 23:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Without listing literally all intelligence services and domestic security services, this article is not ever going to be WP:NPOV.
A secret police is defined on the main page as 'intelligence services or police and law enforcement agencies which engage in covert, domestic law enforcement, intelligence, and counter-intelligence operations', which would cover most of the security services on the planet.
The citations for the FSB - justifying its inclusion - refer to the Litvenenko assassination, suggesting that a common thread across all 'secret police' services is their nature of being 'above the law'. The FBI illicit use of barbituates [1] and the consequential murder of Fred Hampton and his colleagues would fit this 'above the law' nature. This also ties into the illegal COINTELPRO, which used illegal surveillance and methods to hinder 'subversive' individuals and groups.
There appears to be three solutions:
1) Include all security services which are not subject to freedom of information legislation, in accordance with the simple definition on the secret police page - which would make it indistinguishable from ' List of intelligence agencies';
2) Refine the definition on the secret police page in order to justify including the FSB and similar organisations but not the FBI - which I don't think is possible, without explicitly referring to NATO vs former Eastern Bloc countries;
3) Delete the page.
Fouriels ( talk) 12:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I feel like it would be constructive to look at the most famous and least controversial example of a secret police - the Gestapo - which was a sub-administration of the SS paramilitary. As a result of this structure, the ideology of both the gestapo itself and the government of Nazi Germany was nigh-identical, because the gestapo was essentially party-political. These forms of secret police appear pretty rare. I do think your amendment to the article has made the situation less straightforward - thank you for that! - but i'd like to hear what your opinions on my further comments are. Perhaps there could be a further re-evaluation of the definition which would make the situation even clearer. Fouriels ( talk) 15:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is a fair reply. I didn't realise the extent to which the FSB suppressed the Russian opposition. I rescind my original suggestion. Fouriels ( talk) 18:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The Israeli Mossad is essentially a Secret Police organisation. Carrying out subversive activities against Arab groups [1] surely means they qualify as a Secret Police organisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sovietscrub ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
List of secret police organizations has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add CUBA. Secret police organization is Interior Ministry. [1] 2600:1700:A0E0:CC00:5C63:BAD2:94C6:C688 ( talk) 03:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
References
This ridiculous list should be deleted, it is political motivated and based on personal subjective opinion. There is no such a thing us secret when it is well how some unit operates or details about units are made public, when we know who is in lead of such units or organizations etc. Method that is used in police or federal securities or similar units is different and methods on which units operates should be discussed but that has nothing to do with political or personal motivated lists such is this. Any abuse by police or other government forces should be discussed but this is wrong thing to do. Many if not all police forces in world had in some time done something wrong.
Term "secret police" is more Hollywood films based terminology then it is used in reality from people in countries that are marked as having such secret police units. Most people don't even know to make a difference between regular or other more specialized police or army units and uses their official names so using such broad term can lead to bad judgment. Such bad call is that FBI is secret police by definition and not by action they take or vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.35.21 ( talk) 04:44, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The following content was removed for being a historical allegation. I have included the quote in question below for anyone to integrate to the historical counterpart.
The Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission, an agency which existed from 1960 to 1977 in the U.S. state of Mississippi with the responsibility to enforce segregation and resisting all challenges to it in the state, has been described as a secret police because of its wiretapping and infiltration of civil rights organizations, and its targeting of persons suspected of " subversion." [1]
Best, -- Marianian( talk) 15:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B159:5CC8:B856:A0B4:96E:BA37 ( talk) 05:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Remember Guatemala. 71.182.209.56 ( talk) 20:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The FBI belongs on this list. Period. Stop being so Americentric and thinking that the USA is incapable of having such an agency as a secret police. --
174.102.201.14 (
talk)
09:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
The CIA may be "forbidden" by law, but that does not mean that they do not in fact operate on US soil. They are de facto the secret police of America, as defined by the
secret police entry. See
Project MKUltra,
Operation Mockingbird to see what I mean.
71.191.189.195 (
talk)
00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Not only are they secret police but also the world's largest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.38.29.204 ( talk) 04:50, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
FBI, CIA, and other US government agencies should be restored to list of secret police. All are completely within the Executive branch full control, operate in secret, are spies, and are not accountable to the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
List of secret police organizations has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
United States of America : Federal Bureau of Prisons 24.45.236.51 ( talk) 03:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Is the Special Branch really a secret police org? Thanx 68.39.174.150 11:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I am removing the FBI from this list of secret police organizations. The FBI is a national police force and not a secret police force - there is a substantial difference between these two definitions given by Wikipedia. Specifically, the secret police entry specifies that a secret police is only held accountable to the executive branch of government while the FBI is held accountable to Congressional reporting requirements and the federal court system. Inclusion of the FBI ignores the fact that the secret police entry specifically states that "Secret police differ from the domestic security agencies in modern liberal democracies, because domestic security agencies are generally subject to government regulation, reporting requirements, and other accountability measures" including published annual reports and specific delineation of responsibility under statute. If the FBI is to be included it must be clearly cited as to under what grounds it is included as a secret police organization. Any other commentary on the organization as a secret police organization should be included in the Criticism section of the FBI article itself. 207.250.239.174 ( talk) 22:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Why has secret police been limited to including only organisations in dictatorships? The definition of secret police cannot be so limited. The FBI should be restored to the list, along with similar non-uniformed organisations elsewhere Royalcourtier ( talk) 06:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Many of these are not secret police CIA operates outside the U.S. and if the FBI is included why not SIS or intelligence agencies of other countries not just the U.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Commander v99 ( talk • contribs) 23:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
It sounds like there was an agreement among editors above to add the FBI (I assume the counter intelligence branch of the FBI was intended), the SIS (MI5) and the FSB to the list. They operate in secret (for example the identities of operatives are protected) and they protect the state. They may have become more humane than secret police in other states, but that does not automatically exclude them from the definition. As far as I can see, neither parliamentary nor judicial oversight are relevant to the definition. -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 12:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The FSB is also not a real secret policy.-- Gerhardt Rauchfeldt ( talk) 09:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
List of secret police organizations. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:23, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Since the page is protected, I am unable to edit this list. But I would like to recommend the inclusion of Uzbekistan's National Security Service. By numerous accounts, including three listed below, this organisation makes considerable use of torture and mass domestic surveillance on political opposition. It has even been alleged that the organisation was responsible for massacre of several hundred protestors in 2005 (see Andijan Massacre for details). I think this fits the requirements for inclusion.
https://iwpr.net/global-voices/uzbek-secret-police-roam-russian-prisons
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/uzbekistan/report-uzbekistan/
http://www.rferl.org/content/Former_Uzbek_Spy_Seeks_Asylum/1195372.html
37.9.61.83 ( talk) 16:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Is this page an article in an encyclopedia or a page to attack states which the US and the UK dislike or have problems with?! :-/ MarcusAureliusAntoninusMaximus1996 ( talk) 08:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Are you sure? Both references refer to the organisation as the Iranian "secret police". L.R. Wormwood ( talk) 13:19, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
More than 3 years ago, I suggested that this article be renamed "List of police and intelligence organizations in countries we don't like", which was the only description I could think of that actually matched the content. Visiting again now, nothing much has improved. It is a thoroughly crap article. However, I've been around too long to imagine that an AfD attempt could succeed. Zero talk 03:25, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
It seems that it is not well-sourced enough, with one Telegraph source. Should it remain for now? Mellk ( talk) 15:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
1. the agencys as follows (department of homeland security, national security agency, all agency's within DHS or operating on their behalf, Tigerswan paramilitary organization, JTTF.) 2. now onto the citations proving these are in fact secret police forces THERE CITATIONS WAKE UP Memetrident ( talk) 16:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)memetrident
Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems that the majority of sources here are editorial commentaries, opinion pieces and such, written by a single author. According to Wikipedia in identifying reliable sources, "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." - so if we are trying to list secret police organisations as a fact, these kind of sources would not help. I've even seen a few that do not label them as a 'secret police' organisation, those of news reports it seems that are actually much more reliable than those reports by single authors, who I've not seen to be reputable or known. Mellk ( talk) 14:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
This proves that Wikipedia is a propaganda source for the American regime I listed 30+ citiations and you didn't debunk anything all you did was slander well reputable news organizations and call everything that's not bought out by the government fake news and communist news you even admitted your one sided Ness therefore I concluded this website as a whole is a propaganda tool for the regime (USA ) Memetrident ( talk) 22:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)Memetrident
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I wanted to get input from other editors on whether they think it would be appropriate to use human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human rights watch as sources when listing secret police organizations. - SantiLak ( talk) 23:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Without listing literally all intelligence services and domestic security services, this article is not ever going to be WP:NPOV.
A secret police is defined on the main page as 'intelligence services or police and law enforcement agencies which engage in covert, domestic law enforcement, intelligence, and counter-intelligence operations', which would cover most of the security services on the planet.
The citations for the FSB - justifying its inclusion - refer to the Litvenenko assassination, suggesting that a common thread across all 'secret police' services is their nature of being 'above the law'. The FBI illicit use of barbituates [1] and the consequential murder of Fred Hampton and his colleagues would fit this 'above the law' nature. This also ties into the illegal COINTELPRO, which used illegal surveillance and methods to hinder 'subversive' individuals and groups.
There appears to be three solutions:
1) Include all security services which are not subject to freedom of information legislation, in accordance with the simple definition on the secret police page - which would make it indistinguishable from ' List of intelligence agencies';
2) Refine the definition on the secret police page in order to justify including the FSB and similar organisations but not the FBI - which I don't think is possible, without explicitly referring to NATO vs former Eastern Bloc countries;
3) Delete the page.
Fouriels ( talk) 12:38, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I feel like it would be constructive to look at the most famous and least controversial example of a secret police - the Gestapo - which was a sub-administration of the SS paramilitary. As a result of this structure, the ideology of both the gestapo itself and the government of Nazi Germany was nigh-identical, because the gestapo was essentially party-political. These forms of secret police appear pretty rare. I do think your amendment to the article has made the situation less straightforward - thank you for that! - but i'd like to hear what your opinions on my further comments are. Perhaps there could be a further re-evaluation of the definition which would make the situation even clearer. Fouriels ( talk) 15:09, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is a fair reply. I didn't realise the extent to which the FSB suppressed the Russian opposition. I rescind my original suggestion. Fouriels ( talk) 18:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The Israeli Mossad is essentially a Secret Police organisation. Carrying out subversive activities against Arab groups [1] surely means they qualify as a Secret Police organisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sovietscrub ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
List of secret police organizations has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add CUBA. Secret police organization is Interior Ministry. [1] 2600:1700:A0E0:CC00:5C63:BAD2:94C6:C688 ( talk) 03:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
References
This ridiculous list should be deleted, it is political motivated and based on personal subjective opinion. There is no such a thing us secret when it is well how some unit operates or details about units are made public, when we know who is in lead of such units or organizations etc. Method that is used in police or federal securities or similar units is different and methods on which units operates should be discussed but that has nothing to do with political or personal motivated lists such is this. Any abuse by police or other government forces should be discussed but this is wrong thing to do. Many if not all police forces in world had in some time done something wrong.
Term "secret police" is more Hollywood films based terminology then it is used in reality from people in countries that are marked as having such secret police units. Most people don't even know to make a difference between regular or other more specialized police or army units and uses their official names so using such broad term can lead to bad judgment. Such bad call is that FBI is secret police by definition and not by action they take or vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.35.21 ( talk) 04:44, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The following content was removed for being a historical allegation. I have included the quote in question below for anyone to integrate to the historical counterpart.
The Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission, an agency which existed from 1960 to 1977 in the U.S. state of Mississippi with the responsibility to enforce segregation and resisting all challenges to it in the state, has been described as a secret police because of its wiretapping and infiltration of civil rights organizations, and its targeting of persons suspected of " subversion." [1]
Best, -- Marianian( talk) 15:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B159:5CC8:B856:A0B4:96E:BA37 ( talk) 05:35, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Remember Guatemala. 71.182.209.56 ( talk) 20:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The FBI belongs on this list. Period. Stop being so Americentric and thinking that the USA is incapable of having such an agency as a secret police. --
174.102.201.14 (
talk)
09:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
The CIA may be "forbidden" by law, but that does not mean that they do not in fact operate on US soil. They are de facto the secret police of America, as defined by the
secret police entry. See
Project MKUltra,
Operation Mockingbird to see what I mean.
71.191.189.195 (
talk)
00:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Not only are they secret police but also the world's largest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.38.29.204 ( talk) 04:50, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
FBI, CIA, and other US government agencies should be restored to list of secret police. All are completely within the Executive branch full control, operate in secret, are spies, and are not accountable to the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.54.158 ( talk) 06:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
List of secret police organizations has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
United States of America : Federal Bureau of Prisons 24.45.236.51 ( talk) 03:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)