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Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
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MrX 16:55, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
This article needs some major cleaning. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 08:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I just read the article and agree it need "major cleaning". I removed "though not all SPLC listed groups engage in criminal activity" because;
I restored this section because it's extremely relevant. This article is not itself just a list of anti-gay hate groups, it's an article about the list. As such, it's useful to know how the anti-gay hate groups figure in to the total. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 20:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
resolved
| ||
---|---|---|
Most of this has been copypasted from other Wikipedia articles without attribution. That a copyright violation and needs to be fixed. - Nathan Johnson ( talk) 21:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
It is very unclear to me what the complaint justifying the copypaste template is. This appears to be an exceptionally well-sourced list. Can someone please be specific about what text is claimed to be copypaste, or I advocate removing this template. -- Ryvr ( talk) 17:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC) An experienced editor removed the copypaste template because the text in question was reasonable use of parts of summaries from other articles used in appropriate ways. Another editor reverted that to put the copypaste template back in saying that it "does not look like it has been resolved on the talk page." Shouldn't he have made his case here on the talk page then, rather than reverting an experienced editor's judgment without discussion? I think that copypaste template needs to be removed unless someone makes a convincing and specific case here. -- Ryvr ( talk) 21:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I must note your Herculean efforts to complain yet not fix the error you seem so concerned about. No one was trying to get away with anything, just do whatever you think needs to be done and maybe people will stop regretting dealing with the issue.
Insomesia (
talk) 06:06, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
|
An editor just unlinked " anti-gay" in an edit on 26 October. I think that is unfortunate, and I'm not sure what that editor's justification is since he only says in the comment that he did unlink it, and has not discussed it on the talk page prior to the edit. The link seems to have been very useful to me because the "anti-gay" article clarifies the categories and meaning of "anti-gay," which is important in this context where people who are not very familiar or relate to these issues might not understand what "anti-gay" is referring to here. I think the link should be restored. -- Ryvr ( talk) 16:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
This addition has been challenged, so it should be discussed here. Personally, I think it's a no-brainer - it's totally appropriate to include a statement like this, pretty much the same group of us had discussed it ad nauseum at Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center and reached a consensus, and the statement itself is exceptionally neutral and balanced. I don't actually see what User:Insomesia is objecting to... St Anselm ( talk) 23:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I was about to make the same edit as Insomesia just did, after reading Badmintonhist's persuasive argument. Silverstein's criticism is obviously not relevant to this article. - Mr X 00:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that the SPLC has critics, nor suggesting that they are above reproach. However, this article is not the best place to do into an exhaustive analysis of those criticisms. That is best done in the main article. Considering the push back that you experienced there, I'm not sure why you would expect editors involved with this list article to be more receptive to such digressions. - Mr X 19:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not interested in watching some scene in some movie. Please be clear what you mean and please clearly state what specific changes you seek if you want others to discuss. Insomesia ( talk) 12:06, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
While I can appreciate Badmintonhist's bold edit, I have tagged this new content
In their study of of the white separatism movement published in 2000, sociologists Betty Dobratz and Stephanie L. Sanks-Meile noted that events at white separatist rallies "were sometimes portrayed in [the SPLC's] Intelligence Reports as more militant and dangerous with higher turnouts than we observed."
as possibly undue (perhaps 'confusing', or 'off-topic' would be a better choice). I'm concerned that sentence may confuse readers. It seems a little out place in an article about anti-gay hate groups. 00:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
First, avoid ad hominem arguments. There is no "conservative" POV, and by extension its purported editors. You've no idea what my political leanings are. The text added by is not even remotely POV. It is worded neutrally. There is a question of whether it belongs here, but that isnt a reason you can scream "POV" and then revert. MrX has saw fit to tag one part of this edit, which might need some work. I agree partially with his rationale. Considering most of the criticism came in the wake of the FRC shooting, it would be appropriate to use that specific criticism, as thenFRC as you know is on the anti gay list. Some of the non "antigay" criticsm may not be helpful.
little green rosetta
(talk)
central scrutinizer 14:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
One editor doesn't think the fact that there was an attack on one of these groups, possibly provoked by the SPLC list, should be mentioned or that these groups should be quoted themselves. This is bias.
Information about the questionability of this list and the attack on one of the groups:
The Southern Poverty Law Center is listed under the Resources section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's web page on hate crimes [1] and has provided the FBI with information on hate groups. [2] Since 1981 the SPLC has published a quarterly Intelligence Report that monitors what it views as radical right hate groups and extremists in the United States, providing information on the organizational efforts and tactics of these groups. [3] [4] It has been cited by scholars as a reliable source on right-wing extremism and hate groups. [5] [6] [7] [8] The SPLC also publishes a newsletter, the HateWatch Weekly, and maintains a blog, HateWatch, which monitor the extreme right. [9] Rory McVeigh, Chair of the University of Notre Dame Sociology Department, has described the SPLC as "an excellent souce of information for social scientists who study hate groups." [5]
The SPLC's expertise on hate groups has been questioned by journalist Ken Silverstein who argues that the organization sometimes exaggerates the threats posed by certain groups [10] Laird Wilcox, claims to have provided SPLC with some of the information initially used to compile their list of "hate groups". He "concluded that a lot of [the SPLC's hate groups] were vanishingly small or didn’t exist, or could even be an invention of the SPLC." Some of the "hate groups" were creations of SPLC informants, rather than legitimate groups. And with the advent of the internet, some of them exist "nowhere except in cyberspace." Wilcox concludes, "The whole issue of “lists” is full of smoke and mirrors." [11]
In the wake of an August 2012 shooting at the headquarters of the Family Research Council, some columnists criticized the SPLC's listing of the Family Research Council as an anti-gay hate group. Dana Milbank, of the Washington Post, wrote that the SPLC was "reckless in labeling as a “hate group” a policy shop that advocates for a full range of conservative Christian positions." [12] [13] Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council,” said, after the attack, “I believe [the gunman Floyd Corkins] was given a license to do that by a group such as the Southern Poverty Law Center who labeled us a hate group because we defend the family and stand for traditional orthodox Christianity.” [14] Capital Research Center states that the SPLC "deliberately mischaracterizes conservatives and tea partiers as “extremists”." [15] Yeoberry ( talk) 16:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
References
The list at http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/anti-gay/active_hate_groups has been expanded, according to http://www.truthwinsout.org/news/2014/02/39681/ Will collate tomorrow when I have some time, unless someone wants to do it first. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:18, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-gay hate groups →
List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-LGBT hate groups – The SPLC changed the label from "anti-gay" to "anti-LGBT."
71.59.58.63 (
talk) 13:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.The way this article is currently structured, there seems to be an inherent compromise to its neutrality. It is written on a topic that I think few would doubt to be controversial. Therefore, it cannot be in the interest of neutrality to have an article list numerous organizations under an implicitly and potently deprecatory category without substantial justification of its encyclopedic value. What the proper course of resolution is I am not quite sure. Perhaps, it would be best to present supplementary opposition perspectives on salient groups' listings (rather than provide the SPLC's reasoning for classification as a hate group), although I suspect that that would either spark a politically-charged debate regarding included content or would be otherwise undesirable. There was a previous nomination for deletion; it may very well be that if no other sufficient remediation is feasible, that option should be further explored. Regardless, continuation of the article in its current state is very much disagreeable. At the very least, I am recommending the addition of a Contested neutrality template to the top of the article, though I will initially refrain from doing so in the interest of caution and due to the contested political nature of the topic. Ergo Sum 18:28, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
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Here is the diff page showing my post and a contributor's deletion.
It shows that my addition was deleted because the contributor couldn't find a "good source." Instead of taking it to the talk page before deleting, they deleted and told me to take it up to the talk page. I would be happy to add another good source, although one was already listed and Google can bring up many more about the situation.
I want to restore my post and add another unquestionably "good source:" https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/splc-apologizes-to-quilliam-foundation-over-listing
Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 19:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Thank you. Your help is appreciated. I'll add the source you found. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:37, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- :O -- I totally misunderstood your comment when you said "OK, I found a good source" and your reason for seeking the good source. Are you saying that the Atlantic article is already in the other entry? Or that I should add it there? confused... -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- We are to assume the best intentions. I have a particular interest in many nonprofit organizations. One article automatically leads to another on a similar subject. The article I posted said it was a settlement to the Quilliam Foundation. A settlement, though voluntary, that comes at the conclusion of years of litigation, is not entirely voluntary. If an article is about a list, we should be able to use a reliable source to add information about the specific list and that is what I did. The paragraph in question clearly only uses the SPLC's own words. It is a "puff piece" as it is. Regardless of whether you or I agree with all of their work, we should work to make the entry more accurate and complete. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 18:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Are you going to propose a solution or just shoot down my concerns? Wikipedia editing shouldn't be a zero-sum game. There is a give and take until a solution is found. If you have a citation to the fact it was voluntary, then by all means that can be added to clarify. [The SPLC was considered reliable (although biased) before and during the time of the litigation while the plaintiff was complaining about the designation. So, whether they admit errors or not has nothing to do with whether SPLC is on the list of reliable sources.] -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 19:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
Makes more sense for this article to be titled "List of anti-LGBT hate groups". Zenomonoz ( talk) 09:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-LGBT hate groups article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 10 September 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 31 August 2017. The result of the discussion was No action. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX 16:55, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
This article needs some major cleaning. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 08:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I just read the article and agree it need "major cleaning". I removed "though not all SPLC listed groups engage in criminal activity" because;
I restored this section because it's extremely relevant. This article is not itself just a list of anti-gay hate groups, it's an article about the list. As such, it's useful to know how the anti-gay hate groups figure in to the total. I'm StillStanding (24/7) ( talk) 20:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
resolved
| ||
---|---|---|
Most of this has been copypasted from other Wikipedia articles without attribution. That a copyright violation and needs to be fixed. - Nathan Johnson ( talk) 21:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
It is very unclear to me what the complaint justifying the copypaste template is. This appears to be an exceptionally well-sourced list. Can someone please be specific about what text is claimed to be copypaste, or I advocate removing this template. -- Ryvr ( talk) 17:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC) An experienced editor removed the copypaste template because the text in question was reasonable use of parts of summaries from other articles used in appropriate ways. Another editor reverted that to put the copypaste template back in saying that it "does not look like it has been resolved on the talk page." Shouldn't he have made his case here on the talk page then, rather than reverting an experienced editor's judgment without discussion? I think that copypaste template needs to be removed unless someone makes a convincing and specific case here. -- Ryvr ( talk) 21:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I must note your Herculean efforts to complain yet not fix the error you seem so concerned about. No one was trying to get away with anything, just do whatever you think needs to be done and maybe people will stop regretting dealing with the issue.
Insomesia (
talk) 06:06, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
|
An editor just unlinked " anti-gay" in an edit on 26 October. I think that is unfortunate, and I'm not sure what that editor's justification is since he only says in the comment that he did unlink it, and has not discussed it on the talk page prior to the edit. The link seems to have been very useful to me because the "anti-gay" article clarifies the categories and meaning of "anti-gay," which is important in this context where people who are not very familiar or relate to these issues might not understand what "anti-gay" is referring to here. I think the link should be restored. -- Ryvr ( talk) 16:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
This addition has been challenged, so it should be discussed here. Personally, I think it's a no-brainer - it's totally appropriate to include a statement like this, pretty much the same group of us had discussed it ad nauseum at Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center and reached a consensus, and the statement itself is exceptionally neutral and balanced. I don't actually see what User:Insomesia is objecting to... St Anselm ( talk) 23:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I was about to make the same edit as Insomesia just did, after reading Badmintonhist's persuasive argument. Silverstein's criticism is obviously not relevant to this article. - Mr X 00:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that the SPLC has critics, nor suggesting that they are above reproach. However, this article is not the best place to do into an exhaustive analysis of those criticisms. That is best done in the main article. Considering the push back that you experienced there, I'm not sure why you would expect editors involved with this list article to be more receptive to such digressions. - Mr X 19:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not interested in watching some scene in some movie. Please be clear what you mean and please clearly state what specific changes you seek if you want others to discuss. Insomesia ( talk) 12:06, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
While I can appreciate Badmintonhist's bold edit, I have tagged this new content
In their study of of the white separatism movement published in 2000, sociologists Betty Dobratz and Stephanie L. Sanks-Meile noted that events at white separatist rallies "were sometimes portrayed in [the SPLC's] Intelligence Reports as more militant and dangerous with higher turnouts than we observed."
as possibly undue (perhaps 'confusing', or 'off-topic' would be a better choice). I'm concerned that sentence may confuse readers. It seems a little out place in an article about anti-gay hate groups. 00:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
First, avoid ad hominem arguments. There is no "conservative" POV, and by extension its purported editors. You've no idea what my political leanings are. The text added by is not even remotely POV. It is worded neutrally. There is a question of whether it belongs here, but that isnt a reason you can scream "POV" and then revert. MrX has saw fit to tag one part of this edit, which might need some work. I agree partially with his rationale. Considering most of the criticism came in the wake of the FRC shooting, it would be appropriate to use that specific criticism, as thenFRC as you know is on the anti gay list. Some of the non "antigay" criticsm may not be helpful.
little green rosetta
(talk)
central scrutinizer 14:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
One editor doesn't think the fact that there was an attack on one of these groups, possibly provoked by the SPLC list, should be mentioned or that these groups should be quoted themselves. This is bias.
Information about the questionability of this list and the attack on one of the groups:
The Southern Poverty Law Center is listed under the Resources section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation's web page on hate crimes [1] and has provided the FBI with information on hate groups. [2] Since 1981 the SPLC has published a quarterly Intelligence Report that monitors what it views as radical right hate groups and extremists in the United States, providing information on the organizational efforts and tactics of these groups. [3] [4] It has been cited by scholars as a reliable source on right-wing extremism and hate groups. [5] [6] [7] [8] The SPLC also publishes a newsletter, the HateWatch Weekly, and maintains a blog, HateWatch, which monitor the extreme right. [9] Rory McVeigh, Chair of the University of Notre Dame Sociology Department, has described the SPLC as "an excellent souce of information for social scientists who study hate groups." [5]
The SPLC's expertise on hate groups has been questioned by journalist Ken Silverstein who argues that the organization sometimes exaggerates the threats posed by certain groups [10] Laird Wilcox, claims to have provided SPLC with some of the information initially used to compile their list of "hate groups". He "concluded that a lot of [the SPLC's hate groups] were vanishingly small or didn’t exist, or could even be an invention of the SPLC." Some of the "hate groups" were creations of SPLC informants, rather than legitimate groups. And with the advent of the internet, some of them exist "nowhere except in cyberspace." Wilcox concludes, "The whole issue of “lists” is full of smoke and mirrors." [11]
In the wake of an August 2012 shooting at the headquarters of the Family Research Council, some columnists criticized the SPLC's listing of the Family Research Council as an anti-gay hate group. Dana Milbank, of the Washington Post, wrote that the SPLC was "reckless in labeling as a “hate group” a policy shop that advocates for a full range of conservative Christian positions." [12] [13] Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council,” said, after the attack, “I believe [the gunman Floyd Corkins] was given a license to do that by a group such as the Southern Poverty Law Center who labeled us a hate group because we defend the family and stand for traditional orthodox Christianity.” [14] Capital Research Center states that the SPLC "deliberately mischaracterizes conservatives and tea partiers as “extremists”." [15] Yeoberry ( talk) 16:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
References
The list at http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/anti-gay/active_hate_groups has been expanded, according to http://www.truthwinsout.org/news/2014/02/39681/ Will collate tomorrow when I have some time, unless someone wants to do it first. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:18, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-gay hate groups →
List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-LGBT hate groups – The SPLC changed the label from "anti-gay" to "anti-LGBT."
71.59.58.63 (
talk) 13:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.The way this article is currently structured, there seems to be an inherent compromise to its neutrality. It is written on a topic that I think few would doubt to be controversial. Therefore, it cannot be in the interest of neutrality to have an article list numerous organizations under an implicitly and potently deprecatory category without substantial justification of its encyclopedic value. What the proper course of resolution is I am not quite sure. Perhaps, it would be best to present supplementary opposition perspectives on salient groups' listings (rather than provide the SPLC's reasoning for classification as a hate group), although I suspect that that would either spark a politically-charged debate regarding included content or would be otherwise undesirable. There was a previous nomination for deletion; it may very well be that if no other sufficient remediation is feasible, that option should be further explored. Regardless, continuation of the article in its current state is very much disagreeable. At the very least, I am recommending the addition of a Contested neutrality template to the top of the article, though I will initially refrain from doing so in the interest of caution and due to the contested political nature of the topic. Ergo Sum 18:28, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
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Here is the diff page showing my post and a contributor's deletion.
It shows that my addition was deleted because the contributor couldn't find a "good source." Instead of taking it to the talk page before deleting, they deleted and told me to take it up to the talk page. I would be happy to add another good source, although one was already listed and Google can bring up many more about the situation.
I want to restore my post and add another unquestionably "good source:" https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/splc-apologizes-to-quilliam-foundation-over-listing
Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 19:16, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Thank you. Your help is appreciated. I'll add the source you found. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:37, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- :O -- I totally misunderstood your comment when you said "OK, I found a good source" and your reason for seeking the good source. Are you saying that the Atlantic article is already in the other entry? Or that I should add it there? confused... -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- We are to assume the best intentions. I have a particular interest in many nonprofit organizations. One article automatically leads to another on a similar subject. The article I posted said it was a settlement to the Quilliam Foundation. A settlement, though voluntary, that comes at the conclusion of years of litigation, is not entirely voluntary. If an article is about a list, we should be able to use a reliable source to add information about the specific list and that is what I did. The paragraph in question clearly only uses the SPLC's own words. It is a "puff piece" as it is. Regardless of whether you or I agree with all of their work, we should work to make the entry more accurate and complete. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 18:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Are you going to propose a solution or just shoot down my concerns? Wikipedia editing shouldn't be a zero-sum game. There is a give and take until a solution is found. If you have a citation to the fact it was voluntary, then by all means that can be added to clarify. [The SPLC was considered reliable (although biased) before and during the time of the litigation while the plaintiff was complaining about the designation. So, whether they admit errors or not has nothing to do with whether SPLC is on the list of reliable sources.] -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 19:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
Makes more sense for this article to be titled "List of anti-LGBT hate groups". Zenomonoz ( talk) 09:10, 13 August 2023 (UTC)