This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of fictional anarchists article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 3 October 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
I suppose this had to come up eventually, so now that Green Arrow has been added, now is as good a time as any. A few months ago the Fictional Anarchist category was nominated for deletion, as it was suggested that it relied on original research, and too often was abused by editors adding characters who were non-anarchist out of personal bias or opinion. Included at one point or another were such characters Bart Simpson, Havik, Flag-Smasher, and Captain Nemo, amongst others. At this point, I argued that these additions were not likely the result of bad faith additions, but editor misunderstanding. The confusion, as far as I can safely suppose, is two fold.
On one hand most non-anarchists, whom are the majority world wide, are under the assumption that anarchists are trouble making, chaos seeking, anti-social, corrupt, ignorant (if not stupid), individuals prone to violence. (ie Havik, Bart Simpson, Barabas the Jew, etc.) On the other hand, there are anarchists who, understandably upset by their minority status, and by being misunderstood, are somewhat prepared to grasp at straws to provide proof that their beliefs are justified. They will then occasionally make the error of "claiming" individuals as being part of their "cause." (ie Captain Nemo, Flag-Smasher, Winston Smith, etc.)
Observing this, I suggested that the category, and by extension this list, could be salvaged if editors operated under a single guideline to determine whom was fit for inclusion. The source material, either in the form of the character making a self declaration within the material, or the author stating as much, must explicitly state that the character is an anarchist. Questions of whether the source material properly characterize the character as an anarchist could be examined within a subsection of the article for the character. This is important, because occasionally authors will not have the character directly state they are anarchist, either deeming it unnecessary or inappropriate (ie V,) or sometimes anarchists themselves will deny the character, seeing it as a misrepresentation of their ideals (ie Puck). At that point, the only way to avoid bias is to strictly include any character who is identified as "anarchic" and describe the conflict at the appropriate article.
I'm glad that the category was subsequently retained.
Since then, I have been faithfully editing this list and the category section according to this standard, and have made several deletions and additions. However, I can't help but be taken aback by the latest addition. The character Green Arrow, who since it's 1970's re-characterization, has been described as a liberal progressive, is now being included in this list due to a single quote by the author originally responsible for that re-characterization. It is quite possible that the author is using this label inappropriately; however, negative, or inaccurate, portrayals of anarchists, including Yorgi, of xXx, and Puck, of The Anarchist Cookbook have already been included, by myself no less, for the same reason. The creators at some point described the characters as anarchists, and while I myself may take issue with this, I am prepared to include them on this list and let the scrutiny of this characterization take place at the appropriate articles. Therefore, I will do the same now, and take no actions to remove this character. I also encourage all future editors, for the sake of neutrality, to try to follow this guideline as well.
However, if anyone else should feel this situation deserves a different approach, I encourage them to discuss it here. Perhaps a better solution simply lies outside of my vision. -- Cast 05:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been considering this character lately, and decided I ought to bring up my reasons for not including him in the list before it becomes an issue. This is a Marvel Comics superhero created during the 90s, who is presently dead. I have decided that I don't think he qualifies for listing on the basis that while his name is "anarchist," that isn't a descriptive term he uses for himself or which the creators gave him. Rather, it's simply a dynamic alias which has no greater baring on his character. Considering him an anarchist in this context would be like considering Daredevil fit for a Fictional Demon category.
My understanding is that there was another DC comics character created pre-crisis who was also called "The Anarchist," and who fought the Justice League. As an obscure, d-rate character, I don't think he has seen the light of day since the 70s. I could be wrong. I would also not nominate that character for inclusion for the same reasons as Tike Alicar.
Again, I don't expect it to come up, but I figured I'd voice this before it did. If anyone disagrees, feel free to mention it.-- Cast 00:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the webcomic Felney has enough "notibility" to be included here. I should know, i write it XD Felneymike 21:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The character Carnage (comics) has just been added to the list, but the footnote acknowledges that source material does not explicitly refer to the character as an anarchist. Implied anarchic philosophy is not a proper source citation. The character will be removed from the list until a explicit citation can be provided.-- Cast 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we simply redirecy the redlinked The Invisibles characters to List of Invisibles Characters? Skomorokh incite 20:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Now if you thought Green Arrow would be controversial...
Frank Miller says Bruce Wayne, "if anything, he's a bit of an idealistic anarchist" in The Dark Knight Strikes Back. [1] As one of the most influential authors of the character in the past twenty years, he carries some clout, but his interpretation of the character is certainly unique.
Thoughts? ~ Switch ( ✉ ✍ ☺ ☒) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't have the books any more, but there is an anarchist faction of the population in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, at least one of which is a major character. Also, pleasantly, the representation of anarchists in the novels is accurate and generally positive. Does anyone have a copy of the book so we can cite these characters? ~ Switch ( ✉ ✍ ☺ ☒) 23:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed the stringent referencing requirements for inclusion in this list until I had added the 3 Durden refs. I don't have any problems with removing Durden (and the refs weren't particularly reliable), but it seems a peculiar stance to take on Wikipedia. I can understand the urge to restrict adding any anarchic character, but our policy on reliable sources insists that "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (emphasis added), and our policy on primary, secondary and tertiary sources includes the following: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." Original analysis of the primary sources seems to describe what we are doing to source this article. This might be something we need to think about. Skomorokh 01:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I want to take a moment to interject that when I removed the Tyler Durden entry in the last edit, I commented that third party sources are not to be used for this article. At the time I wrote that, I was typing under a restriction (you can't leave a long comment in the edit summary field.) I wrote "Sorry, I was nearly a happy camper there, but then I found out none of it was SOURCE citation. Just third party. We need to find the author saying Tyler is an anarchist, like Moore did for V." I've just added emphasis to draw attention to something I consider an unfortunate edit on my part. I should not have have written "just third party" in the way I did, as it suggests a dismissive attitude towards third party citation. I do want to include third party citations on these characters – and it's not really up to me, as it is wikipolicy that they are preferred – but I only prefer them if they are not interpretive, as that was what I was objecting to in the citations provided. Each was a reference to a sentence from movie reviews tinged with value judgments, rather than objective reports on the nature of the character. We are now having a discussion on whether or not it is possible to be objective and not interpretive for fictional works. I just want to be clear that I'm not going to object to third party sources in this article. I just don't think we can trust sources that interpret information to be reliable enough to override that which is stated (or not) in the source material. -- Cast ( talk) 04:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so in The Dark Knight, there is a single line when the Joker states that he wishes to "introduce a little anarchy" into society. Sounds like the kind of thing Nolan would have the Joker say, given that he also had Heath dress up like a hobo and smear himself with makeup. But does that make him an anarchist? No. The Joker never states that he is an anarchist. He never advocates a stateless society in a positive or negative sense. And even if he did, we'd still need a citation of him saying he's an anarchist. So do we have any word from Nolan on this? All we have is a quote from Heath saying he played the Joker as "a psychotic." No mention of the Joker as an anarchist there. So I don't think the Joker belongs on this list. When a citation is found, he can be added.-- Cast ( talk) 01:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In afterword of Lolita Nabokov described him as an anarchist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.201.159.220 ( talk) 21:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of fictional anarchists. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
where my man at 2603:6011:EDF0:93E0:343F:DCEA:8614:DD99 ( talk) 13:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of fictional anarchists article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 3 October 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
I suppose this had to come up eventually, so now that Green Arrow has been added, now is as good a time as any. A few months ago the Fictional Anarchist category was nominated for deletion, as it was suggested that it relied on original research, and too often was abused by editors adding characters who were non-anarchist out of personal bias or opinion. Included at one point or another were such characters Bart Simpson, Havik, Flag-Smasher, and Captain Nemo, amongst others. At this point, I argued that these additions were not likely the result of bad faith additions, but editor misunderstanding. The confusion, as far as I can safely suppose, is two fold.
On one hand most non-anarchists, whom are the majority world wide, are under the assumption that anarchists are trouble making, chaos seeking, anti-social, corrupt, ignorant (if not stupid), individuals prone to violence. (ie Havik, Bart Simpson, Barabas the Jew, etc.) On the other hand, there are anarchists who, understandably upset by their minority status, and by being misunderstood, are somewhat prepared to grasp at straws to provide proof that their beliefs are justified. They will then occasionally make the error of "claiming" individuals as being part of their "cause." (ie Captain Nemo, Flag-Smasher, Winston Smith, etc.)
Observing this, I suggested that the category, and by extension this list, could be salvaged if editors operated under a single guideline to determine whom was fit for inclusion. The source material, either in the form of the character making a self declaration within the material, or the author stating as much, must explicitly state that the character is an anarchist. Questions of whether the source material properly characterize the character as an anarchist could be examined within a subsection of the article for the character. This is important, because occasionally authors will not have the character directly state they are anarchist, either deeming it unnecessary or inappropriate (ie V,) or sometimes anarchists themselves will deny the character, seeing it as a misrepresentation of their ideals (ie Puck). At that point, the only way to avoid bias is to strictly include any character who is identified as "anarchic" and describe the conflict at the appropriate article.
I'm glad that the category was subsequently retained.
Since then, I have been faithfully editing this list and the category section according to this standard, and have made several deletions and additions. However, I can't help but be taken aback by the latest addition. The character Green Arrow, who since it's 1970's re-characterization, has been described as a liberal progressive, is now being included in this list due to a single quote by the author originally responsible for that re-characterization. It is quite possible that the author is using this label inappropriately; however, negative, or inaccurate, portrayals of anarchists, including Yorgi, of xXx, and Puck, of The Anarchist Cookbook have already been included, by myself no less, for the same reason. The creators at some point described the characters as anarchists, and while I myself may take issue with this, I am prepared to include them on this list and let the scrutiny of this characterization take place at the appropriate articles. Therefore, I will do the same now, and take no actions to remove this character. I also encourage all future editors, for the sake of neutrality, to try to follow this guideline as well.
However, if anyone else should feel this situation deserves a different approach, I encourage them to discuss it here. Perhaps a better solution simply lies outside of my vision. -- Cast 05:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I've been considering this character lately, and decided I ought to bring up my reasons for not including him in the list before it becomes an issue. This is a Marvel Comics superhero created during the 90s, who is presently dead. I have decided that I don't think he qualifies for listing on the basis that while his name is "anarchist," that isn't a descriptive term he uses for himself or which the creators gave him. Rather, it's simply a dynamic alias which has no greater baring on his character. Considering him an anarchist in this context would be like considering Daredevil fit for a Fictional Demon category.
My understanding is that there was another DC comics character created pre-crisis who was also called "The Anarchist," and who fought the Justice League. As an obscure, d-rate character, I don't think he has seen the light of day since the 70s. I could be wrong. I would also not nominate that character for inclusion for the same reasons as Tike Alicar.
Again, I don't expect it to come up, but I figured I'd voice this before it did. If anyone disagrees, feel free to mention it.-- Cast 00:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the webcomic Felney has enough "notibility" to be included here. I should know, i write it XD Felneymike 21:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The character Carnage (comics) has just been added to the list, but the footnote acknowledges that source material does not explicitly refer to the character as an anarchist. Implied anarchic philosophy is not a proper source citation. The character will be removed from the list until a explicit citation can be provided.-- Cast 19:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we simply redirecy the redlinked The Invisibles characters to List of Invisibles Characters? Skomorokh incite 20:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Now if you thought Green Arrow would be controversial...
Frank Miller says Bruce Wayne, "if anything, he's a bit of an idealistic anarchist" in The Dark Knight Strikes Back. [1] As one of the most influential authors of the character in the past twenty years, he carries some clout, but his interpretation of the character is certainly unique.
Thoughts? ~ Switch ( ✉ ✍ ☺ ☒) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't have the books any more, but there is an anarchist faction of the population in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, at least one of which is a major character. Also, pleasantly, the representation of anarchists in the novels is accurate and generally positive. Does anyone have a copy of the book so we can cite these characters? ~ Switch ( ✉ ✍ ☺ ☒) 23:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed the stringent referencing requirements for inclusion in this list until I had added the 3 Durden refs. I don't have any problems with removing Durden (and the refs weren't particularly reliable), but it seems a peculiar stance to take on Wikipedia. I can understand the urge to restrict adding any anarchic character, but our policy on reliable sources insists that "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (emphasis added), and our policy on primary, secondary and tertiary sources includes the following: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." Original analysis of the primary sources seems to describe what we are doing to source this article. This might be something we need to think about. Skomorokh 01:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I want to take a moment to interject that when I removed the Tyler Durden entry in the last edit, I commented that third party sources are not to be used for this article. At the time I wrote that, I was typing under a restriction (you can't leave a long comment in the edit summary field.) I wrote "Sorry, I was nearly a happy camper there, but then I found out none of it was SOURCE citation. Just third party. We need to find the author saying Tyler is an anarchist, like Moore did for V." I've just added emphasis to draw attention to something I consider an unfortunate edit on my part. I should not have have written "just third party" in the way I did, as it suggests a dismissive attitude towards third party citation. I do want to include third party citations on these characters – and it's not really up to me, as it is wikipolicy that they are preferred – but I only prefer them if they are not interpretive, as that was what I was objecting to in the citations provided. Each was a reference to a sentence from movie reviews tinged with value judgments, rather than objective reports on the nature of the character. We are now having a discussion on whether or not it is possible to be objective and not interpretive for fictional works. I just want to be clear that I'm not going to object to third party sources in this article. I just don't think we can trust sources that interpret information to be reliable enough to override that which is stated (or not) in the source material. -- Cast ( talk) 04:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so in The Dark Knight, there is a single line when the Joker states that he wishes to "introduce a little anarchy" into society. Sounds like the kind of thing Nolan would have the Joker say, given that he also had Heath dress up like a hobo and smear himself with makeup. But does that make him an anarchist? No. The Joker never states that he is an anarchist. He never advocates a stateless society in a positive or negative sense. And even if he did, we'd still need a citation of him saying he's an anarchist. So do we have any word from Nolan on this? All we have is a quote from Heath saying he played the Joker as "a psychotic." No mention of the Joker as an anarchist there. So I don't think the Joker belongs on this list. When a citation is found, he can be added.-- Cast ( talk) 01:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
In afterword of Lolita Nabokov described him as an anarchist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.201.159.220 ( talk) 21:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of fictional anarchists. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:31, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
where my man at 2603:6011:EDF0:93E0:343F:DCEA:8614:DD99 ( talk) 13:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)