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Archive 1 |
Why is The republic of Ireland included and not as its own entity. Either we split according to current statehood or we split into Great Britain and Ireland on a geographic basis.
As far as I can tell, RMS Titanic still holds the "record" for the greatest verifiable British loss of life in a single incident in peacetime -- is this true? -- mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Major expansion done, esp of aircrash and mine disasters.
I have noted that: [Temporarily, 19th century mining disasters have been omitted, and 1900-1950 mining disasters have been omitted except where fatalities exceeded 100.] -- this is for sake of clarity while I do further research. There are very many mine disasters, eg:
-- mervyn 17:17, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Accidents like road accidents occur in ones and twos and would never appear on this list ... could we have a section for cause of death per year which might list the total number of various kinds of accidents per year to help put things in perspective?
Tabletop 09:45, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the note about mining disasters as we have at least one in the list, and there is no reason for them not to be here unless someone feels that there are so many there should be a separate list? Thryduulf 11:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Have completed listing of mining disasters for 20th century -- some bigger 19th c disaasters are listed, but not complete yet for this period mervyn 16:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
this page would look better in a table
86.141.159.71 18:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I've set up a page in my userspace where I've put the first section into table format. See User:Thryduulf/List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll (table). I'll not do any more until I've received comments on whether people think the table format is good, and/or if anything should be changed. Also, feel free to experiment there youselves. Thryduulf 16:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to add sweating sickness to this list, but I'm having problems with its placement. Thousands of britons died in the 1485 outbreak alone, and in 1517 some towns lost a third to a half of their inhabitants to it, etc, etc .... But with quite vague figures like this (and a lot more references simply to "many" and "multitudes" of people dying) I don't know where or how exactly to incorporate it into this list. fabiform 11:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Should the Empress of Ireland be on this list? She was owned by the Canadian Pacific, so she was not a British ship. As she was sailing for Liverpool many of her passengers would have been British, but how many? Do we have figures for the no. of British casualties in other major sinkings involving non-British ships? PatGallacher 12:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Considering this incident took place just outside the Port of Zeebruge in Dutch territorial waters, does it really belong in a list of United Kingdom disasters, the only link this disaster has with the UK is that a number of British citizens perished in the disaster and the ship belonged to a British company. I would suggest this entry be removed as it did not take place within the UK and is therefore not a UK disaster in the traditional sense. JonEastham 22:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think they should be included as they were premeditated attacks and if they are included then surely various IRA and WWI and WWII attacks should be included. -- Ebz 11:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think some of the sections are in order. Someone cleverer than me probably knowss how to get their computer to do this. If so please do so. Thanks George bennett 18:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The SS London is on the list twice under different numbers. akaDruid 15:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Due to overenthusiastic mass editing which has added too much clutter and deleted other info, am proposing a harsh revert back to version as at 15 June [1] then clean up and reinstate where needed from there. Any comments? -- mervyn ( talk) 15:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
On the Flat Holm article it includes some info on shipwrecks as the rationale for the building of the lighthouse. Specifically
"On October 23, 1817, a British sloop, the William and Mary, foundered after hitting the rock islands near Flat Holm known as The Wolves (Bristol Channel). The ship was en route from Bristol to Waterford and sank within fifteen minutes; the Mate, John Outridge, and two sailors made off in the only boat. Fifteen survivors were later rescued, having clung to the ship's rigging, [1] but fifty-four other passengers were lost. [2] [3] Fifty of the bodies were recovered from the ship and buried on Flat Holm. [4]"
however I can't find an article for this one & it doesn't seem to be included in this list - any comment or help with including it (with the right level of detail) would be appreciated.— Rod talk 14:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
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I may do some more research and lower the cut-off point to 30 deaths. -- mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think there are too many shipwrecks! Perhaps they should be excluded, or separated into their own section or article. Seperating disasters occuring on UK land from those involving UK citizens at sea or abroad could help. 86.21.227.237 ( talk) 22:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Have removed the comment 'Possible Driver suicide?' after the entry. Whilst that is one source of opinion it is not Wikipedia's role to speculate, only to report the facts. The question mark implies speculation. The matter is covered fully in the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by From the North ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I've just come across this article and am amazed to see disasters included that happened hundreds of years before the United Kingdom came into existance! I was going to remove pre-1707 material but realised that some people have put in a lot of effort building this page. Can I suggest instead that the name of the article could be changed to something like 'List of British Isles disasters by death toll'. If people want to have an article about the United Kingdom, then we will need to cut the material that pre-dates the United Kingdom. 86.147.45.207 ( talk) 19:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
As there seems to be some confusion I'll give the background, during the India Mutiny (or whatever people want to call it) the British garrison at Cawnpore (present day Kanpur) were besieged by native troops and the forces of a local noble, Nana Sahib, they were offered safe passage out of Cawnpore which they accepted but when they reached the banks of the Ganges the men were massacred. That massacre was an act of war and thus doesn't fit the remit of this article.
The women and children were taken to a building called the Bibighar, and over two weeks later they were massacred by two local butchers, two Hindu peasants and one of Nana's bodyguards.
Massacres are accepted on the list (like 'Black Monday' or Clifford's Tower), and so are non military events during wars (Porto Bello) and ones indirectly caused by military action (Bethnal Green) so I'm not sure why a massacre of non combatants by non combatants is not acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsloch ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The preface of the list is very clear in excluding 'acts of war'. Whilst the deaths (intentional or otherwise) of civilians during a military operation (like the earlier massacre on the banks of the Ganges) would be fit in that exclusion, but the murdering of civilians at a later stage would not.
Thus Porto Bello, Bethnal Green, and this massacre can be included on the list, as can the Black Monday massacre which involved soldiers murdering civilians.
As for your three points:
1) The original massacre on the Ganges was an act of war, anything that followed was not. 2) Taking hostages and murdering them is a crime against humanity, not an act of war. 3) They did refuse and weren't killed.
In summary, the issue is whether this massacre was an 'act of war' or not. I suggest that although it occurred during a military conflict, and troops were indirectly involved, the massacring of civilians separate from military action is not an act of war. I do think that the terms used are a bit vague.
I am reinstating my contribution for three reasons:
One, your deletions were on erroneous grounds. You deleted my contribution for reasons that were factually incorrect, and because the 'remit of this article [is limited to] accident[s] or natural disaster[s]' when it isn't. I've treated these as errors made in good faith.
Two, your opinion has no more weight than mine does and until a consensus is reached otherwise the massacre should stay on the list. It's better to err on the side on inclusion.
Three, the massacre is similar to a number of other events already on the list.
rsloch ( talk) 14:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Article should keep to the rationale of "excluding acts of war". The problem here seems to be in deciding upon acts which are incidental to a larger act of war. Let's have further calm debate about this question. -- mervyn ( talk) 17:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
rsloch ( talk) 13:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Some more discussion before page move would have been helpful.
Unfortunately "List of disasters in the United Kingdom and preceding states by death toll" now has the problem that "in the United Kingdom" is inaccurate. "United Kingdom disasters" was the wording chosen to explain the fact that the list should cover disasters wherever they happen - otherwise e.g. Titanic would be excluded.
I suggest use the previous title - List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll - and leave it to the article intro to explain any qualifications or exceptions (as already happens). -- mervyn ( talk) 18:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Let's keep everything together please! I am still not convinced that "and preceding states" is really necessary, but not strongly opposed. One thing could help make the article title less unwieldy: there are no other articles on UK disasters ranked in any other way, so we could drop the "by death toll" bit - this would leave List of disasters of the United Kingdom and preceding states which might work ??? -- mervyn ( talk) 11:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I notice that there is mentioned the summer 2003 2300 estimated deaths due to heat. If this is considered a disaster, then clearly the Age concern figure of 23,000 deaths from cold in 2004/5 is also a disaster of considerable more importance. So I have added this 88.109.22.106 ( talk) 00:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The cut off point (arbitrarily set at 40 fatalities) is designed to ensure that it is possible to be comprehensive above a particular point where it would be too unwieldy to list every disaster.
The current artificial cut-off point of 40 excludes a number of significant disasters, a rough list might be as follows:
Other notable disasters
-- mervyn 12:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC) // updated -- mervyn ( talk) 10:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Expanded -- mervyn ( talk) 13:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC) // updated -- mervyn ( talk) 18:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
At the time, Scotland was not part of the UK and therefore this should not be included. I will remove it. Markb ( talk) 13:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
For instance in 2007, someone decided that by their reckoning 40 was pretty much a good disaster and anything less is not! How utterly undefendable is that? It's like the old saying, one death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic.
The removal of the lesser numbers, also denigrates the losses concerned, however small. For example, the 1951 Gillingham bus disaster resulted in the death, almost in an instant, of 24 young 13-14 year old boys. If that is not a disaster, I don't know what is? Likewise 2004 Morecambe Bay cockling disaster "only" resulted in the demise of 21 adults. In both cases note the name of the articles, they both use disaster in their titles. But they are not listed here because they fall short of the "magic number" of 40. Therefore forgive me if I am wrong, but that suggests a particular callous indifference to human suffering and loss. Just for the purposes of and editor's personal aesthetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.82.32.156 ( talk) 15:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I find it quite bizarre that acts of war are excluded but acts on terrorism are included. War and acts of terrorism are both deliberate actions that can lead to death, and indeed it is difficult to distinguish what is war and what is terrorism the further back in history you go. The only logical way forward is to exclude all acts that may be viewed as terrorism along with all acts that are viwed as acts of war. Spiritofstgeorge ( talk) 18:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Major heatwave, should be included. Definetly a natrual disaster, should be included, temperatures of up to 32 degrees in London, deaths from heat 78.148.103.148 ( talk) 20:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
23,000 deaths due to cold each year according to age concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.91.97 ( talk) 14:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
According to the article, BSE has killed 166 British citizens, is there any reason this couldn't be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.232.42 ( talk) 00:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Where does the range of figure come from for this? The linked Wikipedia page has estimates of around 1 to 1.5 million. The BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml) has an estimate of 1 million, another site list as high as 1.5 million. The current lower estimate here of 1.75 million is higher than the highest estimate for the death toll I came across. Perhaps the number emigrating has been added in? This is not an attempt to diminish this event, only to have a better and referenced estimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.186.163.15 ( talk) 19:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
HMS Hampshire was sunk by a German mine, in 1916 while the UK was at war with Germany. Surely this constitutes an "act of war"? I will removed HMS Hampshire from the list, unless anyone objects. Maproom ( talk) 19:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
According to age concern there are some 23,000 deaths due to cold each winter. I see some global warming nutter has referred to the 2,300 deaths in the only year there was enough heat to even warrant estimate excess summer deaths ... afterall howmany people died in the BBQ summer due to excessive heat? So, even at a conservative estimate there are some 230,000 deaths in the last decade, over the last century, given that we didn't have the beneficial warming of late, that figure must have been larger. So perhaps there are some 2million excessive winter deaths that should be listed if you are going to be so POV as to list the "deaths" associated with the only notable hot summer on record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.91.97 ( talk) 14:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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As the populations of Great Britain and Ireland has changed from approx 5 million to 70 million from 1350 to today it would be helpful in knowing what percentage of the population at the time of each disaster died as well as the absolute numbers. I think the black death would still be first killing about 50% of the population but some other disasters would move around. It would give a better idea of the wider effect of each disaster. Michael614 ( talk) 16:13, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
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I intend to convert the last part of this list to a table to match the other two sections. Have copied to user space and will paste it back when its ready - after checking for any updates. David Crayford ☎ 02:12, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Why is "Bombing of underground shelter at Edge Hill, Liverpool" listed? Sounds like an act of war from the description. 139.80.40.239 ( talk) 05:11, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead defines the scope of this list thus:
That, as far as I understand, should exclude disasters happening in the Republic of Ireland after 1937 (or perhaps 1922), but, as far as I can tell, such disasters are in fact included (and the title of the articvle implies they should be included). So, should the definition be, e.g.
?-- Nø ( talk) 10:32, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The "100–199 fatalities" table has conflicting entries:
178 | Ferndale Colliery disaster | 1867 (8 November)
159 | Ferndale Colliery explosions | 1867 (8 November)
What reputable source gives the correct number of deaths please? ~ RLO1729 💬 02:40, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
It seems that we may need to look at the scope of this list. The addition of Turkish Airlines Flight 981 and British Airways Flight 476 by AmSam13 have been the subject of an edit war. AmSam13 states in the edit summary for his latest reversion [personal attack redacted] The intro states clearly that the list includes disasters "which relate to the United Kingdom or Ireland, or to the states that preceded them, or that involved their citizens, in a definable incident or accident such as a shipwreck". Are you saying that (using your logic) we should remove many of the listed shipwrecks, simply because they didn't occur in the UK?
He may have a point. My personal feeling is that accidents which happened on British and Irish soil should be includable. By law, British or Irish registered ships and aircraft are technically British or Irish soil. On that basis, British Airways Flight 476 would be includable as the aircraft involved was British registered, whilst Turkish Airlines Flight 981 would not be, as the aircraft was Turkish registered and the crash happened in France. Opening for discussion. Mjroots ( talk) 10:57, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
The scope of the list includes disasters involving British and Irish registered ships and aircraft, wherever they occurred worldwide.
The scope of the list includes disasters which occurred outside of Britian and Ireland but that killed 100 or more British/Irish citizens.
Just wondering, would it be worth adding the infamous murders of Dr Harold Shipman to the list? Estimated he killed approximately 215–265+ of his patients between 1975 and 1998, and he is thought to be the most prolific serial killer in modern history.
While I'm at it, is it right to have the Blockade of Porto Bello on the list? I know that most of the deaths came from yellow fever, but it was an act of war against Spain and was part of the Anglo-Spanish War. The casualties occurred during the blockade, so does this event not warrant removal as the list excludes "acts of war"? AmSam13 ( talk) 23:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Why is The republic of Ireland included and not as its own entity. Either we split according to current statehood or we split into Great Britain and Ireland on a geographic basis.
As far as I can tell, RMS Titanic still holds the "record" for the greatest verifiable British loss of life in a single incident in peacetime -- is this true? -- mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Major expansion done, esp of aircrash and mine disasters.
I have noted that: [Temporarily, 19th century mining disasters have been omitted, and 1900-1950 mining disasters have been omitted except where fatalities exceeded 100.] -- this is for sake of clarity while I do further research. There are very many mine disasters, eg:
-- mervyn 17:17, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Accidents like road accidents occur in ones and twos and would never appear on this list ... could we have a section for cause of death per year which might list the total number of various kinds of accidents per year to help put things in perspective?
Tabletop 09:45, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the note about mining disasters as we have at least one in the list, and there is no reason for them not to be here unless someone feels that there are so many there should be a separate list? Thryduulf 11:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Have completed listing of mining disasters for 20th century -- some bigger 19th c disaasters are listed, but not complete yet for this period mervyn 16:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
this page would look better in a table
86.141.159.71 18:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I've set up a page in my userspace where I've put the first section into table format. See User:Thryduulf/List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll (table). I'll not do any more until I've received comments on whether people think the table format is good, and/or if anything should be changed. Also, feel free to experiment there youselves. Thryduulf 16:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to add sweating sickness to this list, but I'm having problems with its placement. Thousands of britons died in the 1485 outbreak alone, and in 1517 some towns lost a third to a half of their inhabitants to it, etc, etc .... But with quite vague figures like this (and a lot more references simply to "many" and "multitudes" of people dying) I don't know where or how exactly to incorporate it into this list. fabiform 11:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Should the Empress of Ireland be on this list? She was owned by the Canadian Pacific, so she was not a British ship. As she was sailing for Liverpool many of her passengers would have been British, but how many? Do we have figures for the no. of British casualties in other major sinkings involving non-British ships? PatGallacher 12:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Considering this incident took place just outside the Port of Zeebruge in Dutch territorial waters, does it really belong in a list of United Kingdom disasters, the only link this disaster has with the UK is that a number of British citizens perished in the disaster and the ship belonged to a British company. I would suggest this entry be removed as it did not take place within the UK and is therefore not a UK disaster in the traditional sense. JonEastham 22:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think they should be included as they were premeditated attacks and if they are included then surely various IRA and WWI and WWII attacks should be included. -- Ebz 11:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think some of the sections are in order. Someone cleverer than me probably knowss how to get their computer to do this. If so please do so. Thanks George bennett 18:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The SS London is on the list twice under different numbers. akaDruid 15:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Due to overenthusiastic mass editing which has added too much clutter and deleted other info, am proposing a harsh revert back to version as at 15 June [1] then clean up and reinstate where needed from there. Any comments? -- mervyn ( talk) 15:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
On the Flat Holm article it includes some info on shipwrecks as the rationale for the building of the lighthouse. Specifically
"On October 23, 1817, a British sloop, the William and Mary, foundered after hitting the rock islands near Flat Holm known as The Wolves (Bristol Channel). The ship was en route from Bristol to Waterford and sank within fifteen minutes; the Mate, John Outridge, and two sailors made off in the only boat. Fifteen survivors were later rescued, having clung to the ship's rigging, [1] but fifty-four other passengers were lost. [2] [3] Fifty of the bodies were recovered from the ship and buried on Flat Holm. [4]"
however I can't find an article for this one & it doesn't seem to be included in this list - any comment or help with including it (with the right level of detail) would be appreciated.— Rod talk 14:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
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I may do some more research and lower the cut-off point to 30 deaths. -- mervyn 15:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think there are too many shipwrecks! Perhaps they should be excluded, or separated into their own section or article. Seperating disasters occuring on UK land from those involving UK citizens at sea or abroad could help. 86.21.227.237 ( talk) 22:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Have removed the comment 'Possible Driver suicide?' after the entry. Whilst that is one source of opinion it is not Wikipedia's role to speculate, only to report the facts. The question mark implies speculation. The matter is covered fully in the article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by From the North ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I've just come across this article and am amazed to see disasters included that happened hundreds of years before the United Kingdom came into existance! I was going to remove pre-1707 material but realised that some people have put in a lot of effort building this page. Can I suggest instead that the name of the article could be changed to something like 'List of British Isles disasters by death toll'. If people want to have an article about the United Kingdom, then we will need to cut the material that pre-dates the United Kingdom. 86.147.45.207 ( talk) 19:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
As there seems to be some confusion I'll give the background, during the India Mutiny (or whatever people want to call it) the British garrison at Cawnpore (present day Kanpur) were besieged by native troops and the forces of a local noble, Nana Sahib, they were offered safe passage out of Cawnpore which they accepted but when they reached the banks of the Ganges the men were massacred. That massacre was an act of war and thus doesn't fit the remit of this article.
The women and children were taken to a building called the Bibighar, and over two weeks later they were massacred by two local butchers, two Hindu peasants and one of Nana's bodyguards.
Massacres are accepted on the list (like 'Black Monday' or Clifford's Tower), and so are non military events during wars (Porto Bello) and ones indirectly caused by military action (Bethnal Green) so I'm not sure why a massacre of non combatants by non combatants is not acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rsloch ( talk • contribs) 17:45, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The preface of the list is very clear in excluding 'acts of war'. Whilst the deaths (intentional or otherwise) of civilians during a military operation (like the earlier massacre on the banks of the Ganges) would be fit in that exclusion, but the murdering of civilians at a later stage would not.
Thus Porto Bello, Bethnal Green, and this massacre can be included on the list, as can the Black Monday massacre which involved soldiers murdering civilians.
As for your three points:
1) The original massacre on the Ganges was an act of war, anything that followed was not. 2) Taking hostages and murdering them is a crime against humanity, not an act of war. 3) They did refuse and weren't killed.
In summary, the issue is whether this massacre was an 'act of war' or not. I suggest that although it occurred during a military conflict, and troops were indirectly involved, the massacring of civilians separate from military action is not an act of war. I do think that the terms used are a bit vague.
I am reinstating my contribution for three reasons:
One, your deletions were on erroneous grounds. You deleted my contribution for reasons that were factually incorrect, and because the 'remit of this article [is limited to] accident[s] or natural disaster[s]' when it isn't. I've treated these as errors made in good faith.
Two, your opinion has no more weight than mine does and until a consensus is reached otherwise the massacre should stay on the list. It's better to err on the side on inclusion.
Three, the massacre is similar to a number of other events already on the list.
rsloch ( talk) 14:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment: Article should keep to the rationale of "excluding acts of war". The problem here seems to be in deciding upon acts which are incidental to a larger act of war. Let's have further calm debate about this question. -- mervyn ( talk) 17:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
rsloch ( talk) 13:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Some more discussion before page move would have been helpful.
Unfortunately "List of disasters in the United Kingdom and preceding states by death toll" now has the problem that "in the United Kingdom" is inaccurate. "United Kingdom disasters" was the wording chosen to explain the fact that the list should cover disasters wherever they happen - otherwise e.g. Titanic would be excluded.
I suggest use the previous title - List of United Kingdom disasters by death toll - and leave it to the article intro to explain any qualifications or exceptions (as already happens). -- mervyn ( talk) 18:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Let's keep everything together please! I am still not convinced that "and preceding states" is really necessary, but not strongly opposed. One thing could help make the article title less unwieldy: there are no other articles on UK disasters ranked in any other way, so we could drop the "by death toll" bit - this would leave List of disasters of the United Kingdom and preceding states which might work ??? -- mervyn ( talk) 11:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I notice that there is mentioned the summer 2003 2300 estimated deaths due to heat. If this is considered a disaster, then clearly the Age concern figure of 23,000 deaths from cold in 2004/5 is also a disaster of considerable more importance. So I have added this 88.109.22.106 ( talk) 00:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The cut off point (arbitrarily set at 40 fatalities) is designed to ensure that it is possible to be comprehensive above a particular point where it would be too unwieldy to list every disaster.
The current artificial cut-off point of 40 excludes a number of significant disasters, a rough list might be as follows:
Other notable disasters
-- mervyn 12:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC) // updated -- mervyn ( talk) 10:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Expanded -- mervyn ( talk) 13:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC) // updated -- mervyn ( talk) 18:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
At the time, Scotland was not part of the UK and therefore this should not be included. I will remove it. Markb ( talk) 13:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
For instance in 2007, someone decided that by their reckoning 40 was pretty much a good disaster and anything less is not! How utterly undefendable is that? It's like the old saying, one death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic.
The removal of the lesser numbers, also denigrates the losses concerned, however small. For example, the 1951 Gillingham bus disaster resulted in the death, almost in an instant, of 24 young 13-14 year old boys. If that is not a disaster, I don't know what is? Likewise 2004 Morecambe Bay cockling disaster "only" resulted in the demise of 21 adults. In both cases note the name of the articles, they both use disaster in their titles. But they are not listed here because they fall short of the "magic number" of 40. Therefore forgive me if I am wrong, but that suggests a particular callous indifference to human suffering and loss. Just for the purposes of and editor's personal aesthetics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.82.32.156 ( talk) 15:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I find it quite bizarre that acts of war are excluded but acts on terrorism are included. War and acts of terrorism are both deliberate actions that can lead to death, and indeed it is difficult to distinguish what is war and what is terrorism the further back in history you go. The only logical way forward is to exclude all acts that may be viewed as terrorism along with all acts that are viwed as acts of war. Spiritofstgeorge ( talk) 18:18, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Major heatwave, should be included. Definetly a natrual disaster, should be included, temperatures of up to 32 degrees in London, deaths from heat 78.148.103.148 ( talk) 20:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
23,000 deaths due to cold each year according to age concern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.91.97 ( talk) 14:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
According to the article, BSE has killed 166 British citizens, is there any reason this couldn't be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.232.42 ( talk) 00:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Where does the range of figure come from for this? The linked Wikipedia page has estimates of around 1 to 1.5 million. The BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml) has an estimate of 1 million, another site list as high as 1.5 million. The current lower estimate here of 1.75 million is higher than the highest estimate for the death toll I came across. Perhaps the number emigrating has been added in? This is not an attempt to diminish this event, only to have a better and referenced estimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.186.163.15 ( talk) 19:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
HMS Hampshire was sunk by a German mine, in 1916 while the UK was at war with Germany. Surely this constitutes an "act of war"? I will removed HMS Hampshire from the list, unless anyone objects. Maproom ( talk) 19:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
According to age concern there are some 23,000 deaths due to cold each winter. I see some global warming nutter has referred to the 2,300 deaths in the only year there was enough heat to even warrant estimate excess summer deaths ... afterall howmany people died in the BBQ summer due to excessive heat? So, even at a conservative estimate there are some 230,000 deaths in the last decade, over the last century, given that we didn't have the beneficial warming of late, that figure must have been larger. So perhaps there are some 2million excessive winter deaths that should be listed if you are going to be so POV as to list the "deaths" associated with the only notable hot summer on record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.91.97 ( talk) 14:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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As the populations of Great Britain and Ireland has changed from approx 5 million to 70 million from 1350 to today it would be helpful in knowing what percentage of the population at the time of each disaster died as well as the absolute numbers. I think the black death would still be first killing about 50% of the population but some other disasters would move around. It would give a better idea of the wider effect of each disaster. Michael614 ( talk) 16:13, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
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I intend to convert the last part of this list to a table to match the other two sections. Have copied to user space and will paste it back when its ready - after checking for any updates. David Crayford ☎ 02:12, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Why is "Bombing of underground shelter at Edge Hill, Liverpool" listed? Sounds like an act of war from the description. 139.80.40.239 ( talk) 05:11, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead defines the scope of this list thus:
That, as far as I understand, should exclude disasters happening in the Republic of Ireland after 1937 (or perhaps 1922), but, as far as I can tell, such disasters are in fact included (and the title of the articvle implies they should be included). So, should the definition be, e.g.
?-- Nø ( talk) 10:32, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The "100–199 fatalities" table has conflicting entries:
178 | Ferndale Colliery disaster | 1867 (8 November)
159 | Ferndale Colliery explosions | 1867 (8 November)
What reputable source gives the correct number of deaths please? ~ RLO1729 💬 02:40, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
It seems that we may need to look at the scope of this list. The addition of Turkish Airlines Flight 981 and British Airways Flight 476 by AmSam13 have been the subject of an edit war. AmSam13 states in the edit summary for his latest reversion [personal attack redacted] The intro states clearly that the list includes disasters "which relate to the United Kingdom or Ireland, or to the states that preceded them, or that involved their citizens, in a definable incident or accident such as a shipwreck". Are you saying that (using your logic) we should remove many of the listed shipwrecks, simply because they didn't occur in the UK?
He may have a point. My personal feeling is that accidents which happened on British and Irish soil should be includable. By law, British or Irish registered ships and aircraft are technically British or Irish soil. On that basis, British Airways Flight 476 would be includable as the aircraft involved was British registered, whilst Turkish Airlines Flight 981 would not be, as the aircraft was Turkish registered and the crash happened in France. Opening for discussion. Mjroots ( talk) 10:57, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
The scope of the list includes disasters involving British and Irish registered ships and aircraft, wherever they occurred worldwide.
The scope of the list includes disasters which occurred outside of Britian and Ireland but that killed 100 or more British/Irish citizens.
Just wondering, would it be worth adding the infamous murders of Dr Harold Shipman to the list? Estimated he killed approximately 215–265+ of his patients between 1975 and 1998, and he is thought to be the most prolific serial killer in modern history.
While I'm at it, is it right to have the Blockade of Porto Bello on the list? I know that most of the deaths came from yellow fever, but it was an act of war against Spain and was part of the Anglo-Spanish War. The casualties occurred during the blockade, so does this event not warrant removal as the list excludes "acts of war"? AmSam13 ( talk) 23:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)