This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
If Ukraine is listed in Russia's subgroup, then why isn't Russia listed in Ukraine subgroup? They have each others largest diaspora. -G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.44.122.209 ( talk) 19:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
None of the ethnic groups between 'Arab Britons' and 'Ayrums' are being displayed. ArenTMA ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Arab Britons are described as" an endangered Amazonian tribe of hunter-gatherers"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.50.131.40 ( talk) 08:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Surely this list should be split by Continent, i.e List of Ethnic groups in Africa or Europe-- WALTHAM2 ( talk) 23:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed a few Indian castes on this list (e.g. Brahmin and Boyar caste). Are they actually seperate ethnicities? Or am I opening a huge can of worms raising this? -- Roisterer ( talk) 09:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Did some industrious editor get tired of working on this page after they got through "H"? Because getting all of this information on to one page is a helluva lot of work and is very useful (even realizing that the population numbers are quickly outdated).
If anyone wanted to return and finish I-Z, I certainly would applaud the effort! Newjerseyliz ( talk) 22:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Seriously, when you order things by population in the table, you can see how outrageous the numbers are. I mean, there's no way there are 300 million Bengalis and Bretons. How about thos 38 million Chickasaws in the United States? Or 280 million Arabs? I'm going to try to fix all this. InMooseWeTrust ( talk) 18:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
While I have no objections to the classification of the descendants of African slaves living in the U.S. as "stateless," (which is, in itself, a controversial opinion that I happen to adopt) I think the justification for this claim ought to be reconsidered. It is not due to "mental conditioning" by European/American colonizers that African-Americans cannot (or do not) identify with a state in West Africa. A more valid reason is that most West African states which exist today did not exist at the time of slavery in the U.S. More, it is extremely probable that most African-Americans are of mixed ethnic ancestry (not to mention mixed racial ancestry) due to the intermingling of various African ethnic groups once they reached the New World via slave ship. Lastly, as descendants of Black slaves have likely had lineages extant in the U.S. for centuries, it is not unexpected that they would not trace their personal ethnic identities back to a single African state. Even many White Americans who have ethnic group-specific last names may not identify with a particular European state due to intermarriage through the generations, a loss of record of where their families came from, and/or a lack of interest in identifying as European after numerous generations are born in the U.S.
71.162.197.201 ( talk) 02:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)Chuck G.
this list is ostensibly a wiki-trainwreck of the first order, and should be divided into "list of lists" format linking to the applicable sub-lists. I do not think it is at all salvageable. -- dab (𒁳) 12:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
in fact, looking through the list, I find it is worse than useless, because it contains patently false information, especially concerning populations (naturally all unreferenced).
I have compiled a list of the largest dozen or so ethnic groups and checked their approximate sizes with the linked articles on the group, their language, their diasporas, etc. I suppose if there is to be any list on this page at all, it will need to build on that and begin with the really large groups. Collections of minor groups must go to regional sub-articles. If nobody objects I will remove the broken general list. -- dab (𒁳) 14:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
look, I told you I would fix it, and I said it would take some hours, so at least give me a chance, would you?
I am done now. I settled for citing ranges where the "ancestry" question messes up estimates. I also updated the figures to CIA Factbook estimates where possible (the Indian groups add millions to their headcount on a yearly basis). I understand you mostly care about listing the Italians. I now give "60–140 million". It is not acceptable to simply say "140 million" and as "reference" give a link to some pdf file on the internets. We now have a low and a high estimate and a footnote explaining why they are so far apart. I did the same for Germans, French and English. This problem is mostly encountered with European groups. This has political reasons (Europe is in the process of abolishing ethnic groups altogether, or at least attempting to stigmatize the concept) but also historical ones (ethnic miscegenation in the US takes generations, and is now in the process of becoming basically untraceable. Two generations ago, most Americans still had an ethnic identity, now most have a long list of ancestries). In the case of Turks and Arabs, the question is also political, in this case not because attempts of abolishing the concept, but on the contrary the attempt to inflate one's own count as much as possible. -- dab (𒁳) 09:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I expected this, and it came up quicker than I feared.
Yes, we need to make explicit what method we base these estimates on. Preferably based on a single identifiable
WP:RS. If we mix references, we mix methods, and the result will be unusable.
Peoples with colonial histories are difficult. The Japanese are a good example of a well-defined ethnic group. So, to a somewhat lesser extent, are the Russians. The Germans are notoriously difficult, as are the Irish, English, Spaniards, and Portuguese.
By definition we do not want to count everybody who speaks Spanish (because Spanish is a multicultural, multi-ethnic, even multi-racial lingua franca); conversely, we probably don't want to count remote descendants of Germans who emigrated to the USA as "Germans" just because they ticked "German ancestry" in the census. -- dab (𒁳) 15:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I know. I am not done with this, you caught me in the middle of building the table.
But I don't have time to finish it today anyway.
I think we will have no choice than to fall back on a published source which has done this work already.
I suggest the criterion should be, "people who identify as $ETHNIC primarily, retaining cultural and linguistic ties". You need to sift through the "diaspora" article in every case. This will take hours. As I said, it's very easy with the Japanese, because they retain a strong ethnic identity. If you ask me, count only those parts of the " German diaspora" living in German-speaking communities. Out of "50 million German Americans" maybe count a quarter million of Pennsylvania Dutch, plus maybe another couple of thousand from smaller communities. But again, even if we agree on a methodology like that, it will still be WP:SYNTH, so we'll have to look out for published sources.
The problem is endemic to Wikipedia. People started to build "$ETHNIC diaspora" articles like it was going out of fashion. After ten years, this Wikipedia trend has actually had an effect on how the term "diaspora" is used in the real world.
A "diaspora" used to be a tight-knit ethnic community scattered among a host ethnicity. It is wrong to use French diaspora for anyone descended from 18th-century French settlers. Or at least it used to be wrong before Wikipedians imposed this usage. Now it's not "wrong", it's just misleading, and open to a wide range of interpretations. -- dab (𒁳) 15:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps require "native speakers", as there is no ethnic group in the world that isn't connected to a language.
This cuts only one way. "English speaker" does not imply "English ethnicity", but "English ethnicity" must imply "native English speaker". So the figure cited can in no case be larger than the total number of native speakers, and it must be smallers if there are identifiable groups who natively speak the same language. This is how I estimated 100 M Germans (maybe it's closer to 90M). From this also follows that there cannot be more than 60M or so Italians, or 47M or so Gujaratis. It's useful as a sanity check.
Or perhaps the proposition of building a "list of ethnic groups by size" is flawed from the beginning and we should drop it. -- dab (𒁳) 15:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
the thing is, if this is to be done properly, it needs hours of work. It's not so much about who is right but about who is willing to do the work. I started adding references now. If there is a huge margin between high and low estimates, you cannot just cite the high estimate. If you want to include "ancestry", you need to go through sources and distinguish between reported single and partial ancestry. And whatever we do, we shouldn't just copy-paste figures from other articles, as these are notoriously flawed. All ethnic articles are perpetually trolled by people who are hell-bent on somehow inflating the importance of their ethnic group. Any reference cited in these articles must be verified, never believe the reference actually states what the article says it does, and always ask yourself if the reference is neutral and "reliable" to begin with. Never use "estimates" by emigrant interest groups, these always inflate figures, often up to 10 times anything that can be considered reasonable. These people have axes to grind, and I am happy to accept they do, but this means their "estimates" cannot be used for the purposes of Wikipedia. -- dab (𒁳) 08:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
look, I told you I would fix it, and I said it would take some hours, I cannot do magic.
I am done now. I settled for citing ranges where the "ancestry" question messes up estimates. I also updated the figures to CIA Factbook estimates where possible (the Indian groups add millions to their headcount on a yearly basis). I understand you mostly care about listing the Italians. I now give "60–140 million". It is not acceptable to simply say "140 million" and as "reference" give a link to some pdf file on the internets. We now have a low and a high estimate and a footnote explaining why they are so far apart. I did the same for Germans, French and English. This problem is mostly encountered with European groups. This has political reasons (Europe is in the process of abolishing ethnic groups altogether, or at least attempting to stigmatize the concept) but also historical ones (ethnic miscegenation in the US takes generations, and is now in the process of becoming basically untraceable. Two generations ago, most Americans still had an ethnic identity, now most have a long list of ancestries). In the case of Turks and Arabs, the question is also political, in this case not because attempts of abolishing the concept, but on the contrary the attempt to inflate one's own count as much as possible. -- dab (𒁳) 09:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I would like to expand the list to "50 million or more"; but not today. Atm we have the Irish, there are about 6 million in Ireland, but "ancestry" estimates go from "50 to 80 million". Needless to say, the dozens of millions of "Irish Americans", "English Americans" and "German Americans" will turn out to be the same individuals ticking several ancestries. The Gujaratis seem to hover close to 60 million, and the Persians close to 70 million (inflated counts nonwithstanding). Of course there are more Persians that Portuguese, because there are 60-70 million Persians and "11-100 million" Portuguese (in sane reality more like 11-40 million, if not 11-15 million). -- dab (𒁳) 10:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I have several suggestions for modifications to the new List of contemporary ethnic groups revamp. However, having only worked on the trainwreck version of the page, I'm curious to see if these could be implemented without disrupting the now better-organised page.
Perhaps we could also the limit for "largest contemporary ethnic groups" to ten or twenty million from forty million. Ethnic groups vary quite wildly and a good portion of them lie in the single-digit millions range. Some of the more prominent ethnic groups with small numbers such as the Balkans or some African ethnic groups are excluded as a result of this criteria. Lowering the bar may mean more entries but it provides a more wholesome picture of the largest ethnic groups in my opinion.
The "homeland" section seems to give an incomplete view of the distribution of ethnic groups. I personally prefer "countries with highest concentration of ethnic groups" or something along those lines. It does result in some arbitrariness and ambiguity, so if it violates MOS, then I'd understand.
Could flags be included in the "homeland" section? I have ever tried implementing flags in another list with a table such as this one but it was rejected for violating MOS:Flags. I don't know if it's the same case here and I'm not willing to repeat that mistake again.
AlexTeddy888 ( talk) 13:54, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
There are more than 10 millions of them, so they should be somewhere in the table.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.98.160.141 ( talk) 07:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be an edit war over the inclusion of "European Americans" as an ethnicity. Under WikiProject it is officially an ethnic group, but personally, its status its debatable. For one, it's very broad. "European" refers to hundreds of ethnicities residing in Europe and is too diverse to be included as a separate entry on this page. Even if it were separated into 'Croatian American' or "Anglo-American", it feels superfluous to contain a subcategory of an ethnic group simply because they reside in another country.
Your thoughts? AlexTeddy888 ( talk) 10:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
It stated that there are 50 millions berbers, which is much higher than 30 millions refered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.69.1 ( talk) 16:29, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Then under your logic African-American is far too large to be an ethnic group. Some countries in Africa have more ethnic groups and languages spoken within it than All of Europe combined.
2602:306:375D:C2F0:C01D:87B9:C507:10B (
talk)
17:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[Whoisgreater?]
This page contains a link to ethnic groups in Africa. Many of those listed on the linked page are larger than the smallest groups listed on this page. Since this page is supposed to list the largest ethnic groups, is there a good reason why African groups - such as the Kongo, of 100 million, equal to the English - are not listed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OldDundonian ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I've been noticing some anonymous reverts on this article; since it would be pretty embarassing to start an heated edit war, which would lead to nowhere but trouble, I'll be starting a dialogue (or, at least, try to do it). The anonymous, always deleting the voice, states Sardinians are not an ethnic group (too bad the reason why they wouldn't is left to the imagination), therefore they absolutely shouldn't be here; a source has been provided saying the opposite, so I've done nothing but restore part of the reverted edit adding the above-mentioned reference; however, the anonymous once again deleted what's been written asserting I posted a source stating exactly what he/she's being saying. The encyclopedia says as follows: ...It is not easy to define the charateristics of Sardinians as an ethnic group, but certainly the common linguistic tradition and insularity are two crucial elements... and ...It is difficult to conceive of Sardinian culture as a homogeneous whole, despite the region's insularity and its unique history; it is, however, possible to highlite some distinctive themes in its popular culture.; therefore, in my opinion the source considers Sardinians to be an ethnic group indeed for historical and linguistical reasons, in spite of the fact it couldn't be that easy to portrait their culture as a monolith (the same thing, however, could be said to any people). That said, I just want to raise the issue on this talk page in order to invite the anonymous to give me some reasons about her/his recent edits, so that we could discuss about the problem (otherwise, I'll be bringing back the page as it was before), as well as to ask for a third opinion. [I'd be pleased if you correct my grammar mistakes]. -- Dk1919 ( talk) 13:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Why Catalans, Valencians, Castilians, Andalusians, Asturians, Aragonese and Leonese people are considered separated ethnic groups? They speak overall Spanish language and they have a commune history and culture. Why greek, greek Cypriots and pontik Greeks aren’t the same ethnic group in different area but they are considered indipendent ethnos? Maybe is a group of person an ethnic group just if it has an official recognition from a state? Are Flemish, west Fleming and Dutch people different just because they live in different (adjoining) areas? Here, each group of jewish persons is considered like an independent ethnos. Nowadays Judaism is just a religion! Spanish jews are spanish, german Jews are german! They speak spanish and german (or german dialect) respectively, and they live the culture and the history of those countries. Jehovah's Witnesses marry other Jehovah's Witnesses but nobody considers them as an ethnic group! Moreover lots of Ashkenazi Jews (everybody of them perhaps) have European ancestry!
Then, according to this list Manx, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English people are independent groups but Italians are a unique ethno-group, except sanmarinese people. What? It’s senseless! This list is completely arbitrary. Italy has been a “league” of different mediterranean groups since 153 years about. 153 years are not many! The union among Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England or the union among the different parts of Spain are older than italic union one. The influences among Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, or among Catalonia, Castile, Andalusia, etc, are the same historical influences among Sardinia, Sicily, Veneto, Piedmont, etc. Italy is the state (desired by Savoy and, yes, by English monarchy) but in Italy there are several characteristic groups.
If for Spain it needs to distinguish Catalans, Valencians (they’re Catalans too!), Castilians and Leoneses, and in UK/Ireland there are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh people, therefore in Italy there are Sardinians in Sardinia, Sicilians in Sicily, Neapolitans in south Italy, ladins and Venetians in Veneto, Occitans and Piedmonteses in Piedmont, Slovenians and Friulians in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Arpitans in Aosta Valley, Austrians (or German?) in AltoAdige, Tuscans in Tuscan (Sardinia and even Corsica), Emilian-Romagnols in north Italy (Sanmarineses are precisely emilian-romagnol, not an independent ethnic group), Ligurians in Liguria (and in France too), Lombards in Lombardy and Switzerland.
Here I’ve read “The most important people from Sardinia show a deep Italian culture. Grazia Deledda won the Nobel Prize for her work written in Italian”. Therefore the most important people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland write in english and they show a deep English culture! Swift, Wilde, Stoker, Joyce, Hume, Even irish people speak English especially! The Cranberries sing in English. Sicilians (or Sardinians or the others) is to Italy as Scotland (or Wales or the others) is to UK. Here I’ve also read “two Presidents of the Italian Republic were from Sardinia”, so Sardinians aren’t an ethnic group for this reason? What? Therefore the Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, James Ramsay MacDonald, Henry Campbell-Bannerman, Arthur James Balfour were Scottish! David Lloyd George was welsh even if born in Manchester. Even queen Elisabeth has Scottish ancestry!
Too arbitrary points of view in this list. Genetics says there aren’t specific traits among peoples in Europe, genetically we are an unique European ethnic group, with different histories and languages. Genetically malteses are like Sicilians, but they speak a language derived from an old Arabic dialect spoken in Sicily during the Arabic domination. So this list is just based on cultural arbitrariness. How many persons in Wales, in Scotland or in Ireland know their autochthon languages? In Scotland just 1% speaks scottish Gaelic; in Wales just 12% are fluent in welsh. Even 26% of irish people can understand irish language (and Ireland is another state!). Manx language is extinct! Instead 37% Lombard area (included Switzerland), 50% Piedmonteses, 51% of Neapolitan-calabrian-apulian area, 77% of Venetians, 78% of Sardinians, 94% of Sicilians, etc, speak their local language.
Does the list contain neither nationalities nor religion? I don’t think so! It’s based just on religion and politics. Parameters should be the same for each group.--01:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
188.153.229.67 (
talk)
You study sociology but I think you’ve never been in Italy. Italy is not just pasta and pizza. Its history, or rather its histories and its cultures are fascinating and very complex. I absolutely don’t want to offend but you probably read bad history books. I advise you to talk with your sociology teacher. Yes, nowadays the Italian culture exists, nobody denies it, but this commune culture doesn’t exclude the differences among italic peoples. Exactly like in UK with welsh, scottish, english and irish people, or in Spain with catalan, castilian, and the other groups. Moreover Italian culture exists because the government imposed Italian as unique official language. It imposed italian because the inhabitants had to communicate, not because the government wanted to be evil. In fact Italian was the language more used among the north (not many but important) writers, sometimes Italian was a lingua franca among the states with different languages or with several dialects, for example in Lombardy-Venetia. Between the partenopean dialect and apulian dialect there are too differences phonetically. They look like two separated languages. However the population doesn’t know Dante Alighieri and Petrarca! Before the unification (and till 50’s of XX sec. about) people were ignorant! The majority of south Italy was illiterate! After the unification the most important south writers (especially sicilian) went in north Italy because they wanted to learn Italian perfectly, even if often their syntax remained non-italian. For example Giovanni Verga. Pirandello wrote with typical (traditionally but non-standard) sicilian orthography! The father of modern Italian language, Alessandro Manzoni, wrote in Italian but he spoke in French! There a famous sentence about Manzoni who went near Florence «a sciacquare i panni in arno» (to wash the clothes inside the Arno). Arno is the main tuscan river. He meant “tuscanize his language”. The Sardinian writer Grazia Deledda said «Io scrivo ancora male in italiano - ma anche perché ero abituata al dialetto sardo che è per se stesso una lingua diversa dall'italiana» (I stil speak a bad italian, even if I used to speak my sardinian dialect, that it is a different language comparated to italian». She won the Nobel prize «for her idealistically inspirited writings witch with plastic clarity picture the life on her native island and with depth and sympathy deal with human problems in general». Did Samuel Becket and Oscar Wilde write in english?
Till recently, when the Italian boys went for military service, they didn’t understand each other! Learning Italian language to the Italians was an urgent necessity, but it isn’t an “ethnic” language.
Later, with mass media and free educational, Italians have learnt this language, exactly like a Catalan speaks spanish or an Irish speaks english. Massimo D’Azeglio after the unification wrote «S’è fatta l’Italia, ma non si fanno gli italiani» which means «Italy has been made, but we can’t make the italians». Because the groups of Italy were very different. Even now there are some people who doesn’t speak Italian, especially the old people of the south. According to Tullio De Mauro (important linguist), in the time of unification just 2,5% could speak Italian.
It isn’t true that Italian has been the only cultural language! You’ve already remembered venetian. Sicilian has been the first literary language since XIII sec, when in Sicily was Frederick II of the Hohenstaufen. After his domination, the Sicilian manuscripts was translated by the Tuscan copyists. Sicilian, Neapolitan, Sardinian, etc have our specific literature.
Plus, the flag of Sicily, for example, is one of the oldest flag in the world! The Sicilian Parliament is considered one of the oldest in the world. Sicilians have always been peculiarly sicilian! Sicilians identify themselves in sicilianness.
Sardinian was official with the Giudicati. However also in Switzerland Italian is an official language, or English in Ireland. And how long has English language been using commonly in Scotland, Ireland and Wales? Why English can be an official language or common language of these so-called separated ethnicities, but if Sardinians or Sicilians use Italian they lose the “ethnic dignity”?
Tuscan and Italian is the same language! Where have you read your information? Italian is the national standard derived by literary fourteenth-century Tuscan. Contemporary Tuscan is a dialect non-literary of Italian language.
Sure, you can say «in this list we have to include just the groups that the respective state recognizes», but you can’t say «Italian people are one of the most homogeneous ethnic groups», this is the fascist idea of Mussolini! The influences among part of Italian peninsula is obvious, Italy is a narrow land surrounded by the sea, but the different part didn’t a real unique culture before television and obligatory education in italian. And these differences are evident and alive nowadays too.
So in this list there are scottish, welsh and irish people, even if they have the same culture of english people and they speak always the same language (except a little minority). On the contrary in Italy:
• linguistically there are several alive differences among the different parts;
• the history of different parts was different till the Savoy unification (remember the unification of UK or Spain is older than it). Between the fall of Roman Empire and the savoyard kingdom of Italy there was 1385 years (one thousand three hundred and eighty five!);
• Italian people, in addition to Latins, have different genetic influences according to geographic area, etruscan, celtic in north; Sardinia has always been rather isolated; and greek, semitic, norman and preindoeuropean in south (however especially greek and anatolian). Moreover with the migrations, south people went in north but north people didn’t go in south, so north Italy could be more “italically” homogeneous, on the contrary south and islands are more homogeneous only locally: Sardinians with Sardinians, Sicilians with Sicilians, etc.
• There are also some differences in physical appearance! More differences than among english, irish, scottish and welsh people!;
Anyway for you, and your books, sardinian or sicilian ethinic group doesn’t exist, but irish and welsh groups exist. When you talk about groups of italic persons genetic isn’t important, languages aren’t important, traditions aren’t important, history isn’t important (except the very old Roman Empire). what is important for an ethnic group? There’s a big difference between ethnic group and national border. Italy is a nation-state but it isn’t an ethnic-state (“ethnic” according your interpretation of this term). It has surely a different politic compared with UK, but irish, scottish, english and welsh people are more homogeneous than sardinian, sicilian, venetian people, etc. So, this list is based just on politics, not on ethnicities. Or rather we should say “peculiar local characteristics”, in fact the only ethnicity in Europe is the so-called european, or white, or caucasian one. However if you want to call the different cultures “ethno”, you can’t discriminate any group. Or you include every single group, or you exclude all of them. Irish, scottish, welsh, english people is to UK culture as sardinian, venetian, sicilian, friulian, etc, is to Italian cultures, or rather among the italic areas there are more differences culturally, historically, linguistically, artistically, sociologically, traditionally, culinarily, etc. Italians are a unique group only when the national soccer team plays. Including in the list the invented sanmarinese ethnic group and denying the real peculiar identities is a big absurdity.
I hope you’ll talk with your teacher about this argument, better if not in a pub. Thank you.
--18:27, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
So, you confirm, this list is based on politic events and historical arbitrariness, because the ethnic groups are dynamic depending on the borders of the national recognized states. In fact a united state homogenize its citizens who have to communicate among them. But between a Welsh and an English there is the same level of communication than between a Sardinian and a Sicilian! Do you deny it? It have always been like this. Therefore if Italy had been separated in states, with their own official local language (only official!), italic ethnic groups would be existed. Given that in Italy the only common culture is officially the Italian one, the local differences doesn’t count, even if those differences constitute the real condition of majority of Italian inhabitants (especially in the south). Moreover you are Sicilian! Do you live your island? I can’t believe in you! I don’t like the secessionists, Italy can be an united state, but it’s undeniable that a Sicilian is to Italy as a Scottish is to UK. Factually is like that! Catalans use catalan at the school too and Sicilians use Sicilian at home (or in the classroom with their classmates), anyway they use their respective languages! Probably you are one of these persons who snubs sicilian language, but it’s undeniable its lively use in the island.
If the data of De Mauro is wrong it doesn’t matter, because in any case even nowadays Sicilians use Sicilian more than, for example, welsh people use welsh. Italian language and all national symbols have not removed (especially in south Italy, included Sardinia) the local languages and peculiar identities. Majority of sicilian people or Neapolitans migrated abroad spoke and speak in Sicilian and Neapolitan! Often also the new generations.
Europe (and generally all west world area) is completely globalized and homogenized. The main differences among the people concern languages, mentalities or eating habits (irrespective of politics, laws, economies). So, a recognition of a group as ethnic group is just an arbitrariness officialized by a government. Spain recognize the ethnic groups, so you say «they exist», UK idem. France, Germany and Italy have always been more centralist, so you think «these countries are very homogeneous ethnically!». Sorry, but only a blind can’t see the diversities of his own nation! The same differences existing in Spain among its communities, and the similar differences among the various parts of UK (or rather in south Italy there are more differences in relation with Italy).
Anyway you wrote that languages wasn’t important, genetic wasn’t important, politic and social factors are obviously dynamic, and nowadays irish, scottish, welsh and english people have a common culture. So, this ethnic separation is unjustified no more. Maybe it come from traditional and politic distinction. Therefore this page should be called “list of recognized official modern groups”. Otherwise no list would be objective.
I’ve the impression you want to deny the existence of a peculiar sicilian group, with some pretext.
Everywhere there was invasions and migrations. The influences created the (dynamic) cultures and societies, new languages, etc. But I didn’t say that Sicilian ethnicity exists in name of its past. Sicilian (and Sardinian or Neapolitan) peculiarities are still lively, now!
Your translation about the sentence of D’Azeglio doesn’t change the nitty-gritty: the Italian culture is recent, the local cultures are oldest (and alive).
According to Treccani we are both right: Tuscan is to a certain extent italian language, but typologically it’s close to a separate language. Giannelli said we can talk about just a «graduale decantazione degli elementi insidiati da usi standard».
I hope you joked when you denied the sicilian syntax of Verga. Tell me that you were joking. Verga is one the most important writer of Italy! Even if you’ve never read a book of him, every anthology says that! And in every school we study Verga’s works thoroughly. I’m not going to quote a piece of his novel. The Anglophone wouldn’t understand anything. So, please don’t give false information.
Pirandello wrote “ajuto” instead of “aiuto”, “vojaltri” instead “voi”, ecc. like common traditional (non-standard) sicilian “ajutu”, “vuautri”. However Pirandello Nobel prize of italian doesn’t remove siciliannes. Therefore all welsh, scottish and irish authors write in English! Samuel Beckett is a Nobel prize too. He wrote in English (and French), but according to you Pirandello is a proof of italiannes of Sicilians, instead Becket or Wilde could write in English remaining ethnically irish.
In this list all the so-called independent european ethnic groups must be delete, or the article’s name should become “list of recognized official modern groups”.
I don’t advise you to reply on the spur of the moment. Ponder harder, talking with other people.
Unni jisti a scuppari pi taliari di unni sugnu? Talianu 100%, sicilianu 0%? Accussì ni nzìgnaru, ma s’ava a stari attangati dintra pi nun addunàrisi ca cà i cristiani hannu saputu mantèniri zoccu d’un sicilianu u fa sicilianu.
The italian government has always been centralist, you obviously know. And you also know that italian culture didn’t exist before television (except for very few well-to-do intellectuals who were making it), so it isn’t true the sentence “Italy [and German] are two examples of national cultures born before the nation-state”. It’s very very false. The Treccani encyclopedia confirms that several cultural anthropologists and historians affirm that ethnicities are just arbitrariness. According to Treccani among the scholars (Weber, Banton, Smith, Morris, Schermerhorn, Glazer, Connor, Barth, Moynihan, Horowitz) there are several dissonances about the expression “ethnic group”. That encyclopedia talk about “the revival of ethnic movements in countries where the ethnic divisions were considered part of the past and completely irrelevant in contemporary situation.” among which scottish and welsh people. Then it wonders “why has asleep ethnic relationships achieved a lot of social importance that they require un official recognition?”. According to Hechter the ethnonationalism revives because of local disastrous economical development, but also because an area is richer than another, for example Veneto recently in Italy, secessionist among secessionists of “Padania” (but Venetians are also a cultural historical group, “padanians” have just an economical specious motivation). as Treccani says “the issue about ethnic groups has been interesting for some scholars of various social sciences, they have analyzed it with their own methods, often without considering the other pertinent works. So, their results are often opposed instead of complementary”. So there are no objectivities in this article.
In this page, the “ethnic European groups” should be deleted. Or, if we have to consider all peculiar local differences it need to add every typical group, irrespective of national borders. Or it’d need to say that factually there are other groups without official recognition.
If Americans mix together Pulcinella and gondolas, we must clarify to them the differences! Apart the irony, the constitution of Sicily doesn’t show anything. How did scottish or welsh people write? But they are separate ethnic groups and Sicilians or Sardinians (with all Italy) are the same group. Why this double standard? “Nation” is a politic concept, but “ethnicity” should follow other parameters.
Sorry, I don’t want to be boring but you contradict yourself, because you say “If we took in consideration the local culture we would have at least 3 different ethnic groups only in Sicily. […] In Sardinia we would have at least 4 different ethnic groups”, then you talk about a “fictional Sicilian group” (fictional!! We aren’t at all talking about Padania!). Plus you say that languages aren’t important for ethnicity, then you say “Scottish are tv channels only in scots” or “In Catalunia more than 50% of films at Cinemas are in Catalan”. Languages are or aren’t important? Anyway it doesn’t matter, Sicilians use a lot more their language than Scottish people use theirs (if you live in Sicily you can confirm that Sicilian is used in every social class, also in the cities). Sicilian language hasn’t any recognition and the institutions has always disseminated the idea that Sicilian is just a vulgar dialect (according to Italian meaning). On the contrary catalan in official. A formalization of Sicilian language could mean “to reawaken the autonomist sentiments”. A channel in sicilian would be not much advantageous economically, even because Sicilian language hasn’t a standard and it has a lot of dialects, so Italian is (and was) a good way to understand each other. Languages is an important ethnic characteristic. It doesn’t count just in some cases, for example Mexicans speak Spanish, but they are another group (or groups); in many African states people speak English or French and their constitutions are written in English or in French, but they aren’t English or French. Sami people speak Norwegian, Swedish or Finnish, but those one aren’t their ethnic languages. Instead Catalan is the language of Catalans, Sicilian is the language of Sicilians, Sardinian is the language of Sardinians, so it’s an ethnic peculiarity.
Yes I keep comparing Sicilians or Sardinians to Scottish people or Catalans. The source talk about recognized groups. My disquisition is coherent. Who is Spanish and who is Catalan? According to Spain Dalí was Spanish (from Catalonia), Picasso was Spanish (from Andalusia) as Verga was Italian and Sicilian. Catalans are Spanish but not every Spanish people are Catalan. The person who has a Sicilian identity is part of Sicilian ethnicity (language, customs and traditions, the most part of ancestry’s history, similarities of religion rituals, attitudes, mentality, sharing of the same mother earth, etc). Nowadays the term appropriated for UK and Ireland should be for example “irishunitedkingdomian”. I know it’s very horrible. British is inappropriate because irish people live in another island, not in Great Britain. But a missing terminology cannot be a reason of a different treatment!
I could imagine everything but behind this page there was a Sicilian who denies the “ethnic similarities” among Spanish, irish-british and Italian situations!
With the last changes the article is much better, you could add in “subgroups” the sentence, for example, “local identities”. I don’t know why now there are a subclassification for Germans and French people but for Italians nothing of the sort. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.40.250.233 (
talk)
18:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).</ref> isn't an ethnic census. Statistically speaking it is a limited sample of people living in Sicily that has been chosen for a survey. You have to provide an ethnic census of all the population like the one of the Istat in Italy. Or we go nowhere. I hope I was clear.--
Walter J. Rotelmayer (
talk)
11:32, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
References
The introduction to this list is very brief but I think it is important to mention that ethnicities are not mutually exclusive. For example, on Wikipedia I run into editors who argue that an individual could not be Jewish and German. They imply that individuals have only one ethnicity. But for millennia, people have migrated and intermarried and shared customs. Many people are biracial and if you ask an individual what their heritage is, they might mention 5 or 6 different ethnicities. Many individuals identify with multiple ethnic identities. Liz Read! Talk! 23:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to split this page into several sections for different ranges of the populations of different ethnic groups, as is done here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias#All_Wikipedias_ordered_by_number_of_articles
(Though replacing the word "articles" with "ethnic populations"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Last edited by: ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Why do we have entries under the "Majority (plurality) religion and sect" column with multiple religions? If we intend this column to show the most common religion there should only be one religion listed for each ethnicity. Many of the entries follow a "Religion → Sect" format (e.g., Azerbaijanis) but others list multiple religions (e.g., Bengali). Meters ( talk) 19:24, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
You gotta be kiddin' me. And 3.5M in Hong Kong only? Seriously? Like 'partial ancestry is counted, citizenship is counted, everything is counted'??? I am sorry to tell, but there is 7.5 million people in Hong Kong overall,92% of which are Han Chinese. So, if you count whatever you want, you shall write something like '300 M+ Russians as all the post-Soviet countries are at least 50% Russian ancestry and 100% of people living in Russia nowadays have ...surprise(!) Russian citizenship. So, the list is a crap, as for now, If you have such uncertainty and controversy for the nation in top-5, than how can you trust the data at all? 119.33.136.192 ( talk) 11:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Why only sicilians are specifically subdivided here (in sicilian-americans, -canadians, -argentinians). If you're going to mention these you gotta mention: sicilian -uruguayans, -brazilians; german-americans, -canadians, -argentinians, -bolivians, -mexicans, -brazilians; lithuanian-americans, etc etc and so forth. 20:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.86.255.5 ( talk)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of contemporary ethnic groups. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a note (as citation) that says:
"There is no clear definition of Spanish ethnicity. In Spain, ethnic identity is divided into regional groups, and internationally, Spanish ethnicity is not clearly delineated from "Spanish ancestry" in the territories of the former colonial empire. There are 41 million Spanish nationals in Spain, and some 2 million living abroad. The total worldwide rounds to more than 47 million."
However the Spanish government has a clear definition of what "Spanish nationality" is. Though the Spanish ethnicity's consideration as a single ethnic identity is contested in Spain it is fairly clear that people of Spanish descent who are not Spanish citizens (not of Spanish parents) and who have are of another ethnic identity are not included.
Furthermore it appears the majority of Spanish speaking Americans do not identify as "Spanish" but rather with their own nationalities and racial/ethnic identities. By the logic of "ethnicity" by descent alone the "British ethnicity" should be much greater in number and all former Roman provinces could be called Italian. It's a very faulty logic. This entry needs major edits, at least one which takes an estimate of those inhabitants of "Hispanic America" who identify as Spanish to distinguish them from those "Hispanic Americans" who do not. If a remotely correct estimate is made in sure the number of Spaniards is much lower than 500 million. Mepersondudeman ( talk) 08:59, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of contemporary ethnic groups. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
In general I've noticed a problem here that many people are not aware of the difference between the two. Each nationality usually has many ethnic groups and language, some nationalities assimilate their minorities. Saying that one group is just a 'type of this larger group' works if you clarify the relationship, but it doesn't negate the existence of the smaller community. My ethnicity is Sicilian, my Nationality is Italian. They do not conflict they're just different. But my other ethnicity is Irish and that Nationality is also Irish, in this case they are the same. But let's say I'm Irish Traveller? Ethnicity: Irish Traveller, Nationality Irish. Northern Irish? Azeri Iranian? Swiss German? Etc. You follow. In a lot of these countries the topic of ethnicity vs nationality is very political as ethnicity is viewed as a form of separatism. We need to be sensitive here to the fact that the word ethnicity doesn't mean 'has their own state' or even 'wants their own state'. Nationalism has nothing to do with your existence as a community, and in communities where assimilationism is the official policies we need to be even more careful to acknowledge the existence of these separate groups within a national identity. Paolorausch ( talk) 00:22, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Aymara might need fixing. Benjamin ( talk) 08:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
So I noticed British has been removed and reinstated a few times. I readded it twice recently, after being removed on the basis of English/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish/Irish being listed. I don't think it is fair to remove this purely on the basis of overlap. In cases such as the Scottish, the national identity has existed for much longer then the British national identity, but still the British have all lived together in the same archipelago for the last thousand years. The relationship between the various nations is complex. For example, the Cornish have been part of England for as long as they have been a separate group from the Welsh. And even while the Scots have been independent for most of history, they're intrinsically linked to the other nations through their partly Brittonic (Pictish) and Anglo-Saxon heritage. I don't think it's really up to a few editors on Wikipedia to decide what is or isn't an ethnicity. If we're going to start limiting the definition of what is an ethnicity, we need a very clear definition that can be consistently applied. Otherwise, any groups that can be considered ethnicities should be listed. Rob984 ( talk) 17:57, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Ethnicity is one of those porous terms that are difficult to numerate. The combination of cultural, racial, linguistic and religious differences make it a somewhat like making a list of colours. But given that we group Germans, Italians, French and Spaniards together as ethnicities, then doing the same with the British doesn't seem unreasonable. -- Inops ( talk) 19:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
After searching the whole discussion page I'm still wondering: Is there some criteria set for inclusion of specific ethnic groups in the list? For example a minimum population? I see that the smallest population estimates of the included ethnic groups are 0.2 million, but some other larger ethnic groups are still missing, even European ones, where data should be more easily accessible (I went on and added a few). Another issue is the inclusion of groups such as the ethno-religious ones, but I guess since Assyrians are included, then Copts, Druze and Maronites should also be. Of course it would be impossible to include all ethnic groups in one page, but I believe we should agree on some criteria for inclusion.
I'm also wondering what is the definition of sub-groups and what are the inclusion criteria for them? Should they refer to linguistic or other cultural definitions (e.g. religions)? Or is also the number of their population? Should recognized minorities numbering smaller population (e.g. the German-speaking minority of Belgium) included? There are definitely some inconsistencies there. For example I don't understand why Gozitans are included, but Madeirans or Azoreans are not. Also I can't see why some groups are included as subgoups, for example Carpatho-Rusyns and Lemkos in Ukrainians, although this is disputed by some ethnographists, or Afrikaners in Dutch, while they are members of UNPO?
Any suggestions are welcome! Argean ( talk) 02:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Rjrya395 ( talk) 04:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Regards. Argean ( talk) 10:00, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks and good to know that. Absolutely agree that there is no real difference between ethnic groups and indigenous people. I would add that, in my opinion, calling a group indigenous is actually a left-over of european colonialism, in an effort to deny their rights to self-identify as an ethnic group and discourage them to ask for further recognition. Personally, I will ignore the definitions given in the pages of the groups' description and I will include the ones that I mentioned before and others that I believe have the characteristics of an ethnic group, i.e. distinct identity, language, homeland, etc. Absolutely agree on the religion column as well and I don't find it very useful either. I'll follow the rules set, since it seems that we cannot get rid of it. I see that you are adding more African and Asian groups recently, so I'll go on editing the European ones basically, but keeping in mind that the list should remain inclusive and not too skewed towards one or another region. Best. Argean ( talk) 13:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Is there any aboriginal ethnic groups whose population is greater than 100,000? Because I'm not really comfortable that there is not one aboriginal group on this list. Rjrya395 ( talk) 04:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Argean,
what you have wriiten it edit log does not hold, Felvidék has an actual modern definiton, that is even known better than the historical one. Modern definition restricts the term to modern-day Slovakia, while the historic one is a bit broader, but includes the earlier. Further details see Upper Hungary. Cheers( KIENGIR ( talk) 01:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC))
Look; the statement that African Americans don't know their heritage due to "mental conditioning" is just completely asinine. It's difficult enough to convince people that slavery left a cultural imprint even without trying to blame a tangentially-related social ill on a polyethnic racial category like "Europeans."
African Americans have not been "conditioned against" knowing their heritage; they don't know it because the records have been lost and because many have intermarried. And in any case, blaming Europeans in general rather than slaveowners in particular for the very real mental and cultural conditioning of slavery... to blame the general rather than the specific: first, is to trivialize the sacrifices made by millions of whites (among others) who fought for the North during the Civil War; second, is to reject the solidarity expressed and realized by whites (among others) from the time of the Underground Railroad through the Civil Rights movement and into the present day; and third, is to ignore the dedication put forth by those researchers who have given us a glimpse into the real psychological and cultural cost that was actually incurred by slavery.
Because frankly, the notion that mental conditioning is even *capable* of preventing people from identifying with their heritage roughly seems to imply that African Americans have this superpower wherein they automatically know what African state they were from, a superpower that is deactivated as if by kryptonite whenever African Americans come into contact with "suppressive Europeans." (Did you catch the Scientology reference? Because that's the other thought-system the statement brings to mind...)
I'm going to delete the phrase "mental conditioning by Europeans" and replace it with the phrase "lost records and intermarriage". The text will then read, "Due to the inability to identify themselves with any particular African ethnic group or African state as a result of lost records and intermarriage, they are largely considered a separate ethnicity." In the future, if you wish to claim that "Europeans mentally conditioned African Americans to make them unable to identify with Africa," please give a reason, specifically one that is grounded in actual psychology and not just half-minded racist mythology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.18 ( talk) 02:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
You are absolutely incorrect. It was and still is a large effort in part by powers that be to knowingly wash and destroy the Heritage of Africans in America. I cannot believe your incongruent babble of insolence. Simply admonishing history because it does not make you comfortable is doing the exact thing that you claim the large majority of whites did not do. Simply because it was not the majority does not mean that Europeans did not do it. Please educate yourself and come to reality. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2602:306:375D:C2F0:C01D:87B9:C507:10B (
talk)
17:39, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Although the first user has a lot of questionable statements here (native Europeans are polyethnic? assuming all historical researchers were white? whites made a lot of sacrifice?), his/her overall agreement seems reasonable. The second user should respond with good points rather than just dismissing the argument. Wiki user wiki ( talk) 22:29, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Removed Arab world and Arab peoples as population of 400 million; it was biased (included Somalia?!) and was not in line with reality (Syria includes ethnic Syrians, genetically part of East Mediterranean genetic group, but also Arabs from Gulf). Too many mistakes to be accurate as a single ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Funhouse5050 ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
This article is an absolute trainwreck as described somewhere above. Arabs are not an ethnic group but a cultural and, arguably, linguistic group. They don't even speak the same language but a group of related ones. What ethnicity are Sudanese Arabs? Clearly a different one than Lebanese or Algerians.The Maghrebis are mainly of Berber stock and on a daily basis speak either Maghrebi Arabic (various versions) which is not intelligible with, e.g., Modern Standard Arabic. In addition you have local Berber languages. This all you could have looked up on Wikipedia. How the hell did someone come up with 100m French if France has less then 70m people, a lot of it of migrant origins. A few millions in Quebec clearly can't account for it (are they still French at all?). Han Chinese are not one ethnic group - again more of a cultural group. Hindustani up to 1.200billion??? Even worse for Italian and Irish - was every American claiming to be one of the other counted in just because his grand grand father on the maternal side was? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.34.9 ( talk) 20:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Arabic speaking ethnic peoples are largely excluded from this list. For example, there are no entries for countries located on the Arabian Peninsula. This is a huge oversight and needs to be remedied as quickly as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miramisk ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I think this article needs to clearly define ethnicity as opposed to race. Race is, for example, black, white, Asian. Meanwhile, there is a reason the US census has "Hispanic" or "non-Hispanic" separately from the rest. There can be white Hispanics, black Hispanics, or native American Hispanics. With Arabs, I do think they are an ethnicity. They originated as a race, but there is also a separate Arab ethnicity of all *Arabized* peoples, including North Africans, Turks, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Iranians, etc. Arabs are nonetheless an ethnic group, though. Wiki user wiki ( talk) 22:36, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
What a horrible name for this list! List of existing ethnic groups, yes. List of extant ethnic groups, yes. Contemporary groups? When you're talking about possible historical entities, contemporary is more likely to mean "existing at the same time as each other. The Phoenicians, Babylonians, and the Lapita were contemporary, for instance. Grutness... wha? 13:57, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
The list total, taken estimates by their average, only amounts to 5.5Bn people. Also, breaking down said 153 ethnic groups that are listed here into U.S. Census-Style racial/ethnic uber-groups, this list disproportionately lists Caucasian groups, which could simply mean that most authors of this page are more familiar with Caucasian ethnic groups and less familiar with ethnic groups of non-Caucasian backgrounds. Particularly under-reported here are African/Black ethnic groups (based on African census data, approx. 600 Million people aren't listed on here), Latin American / South American groups (based on South/Latin american census data, 400 Million people aren't on this list), 500 Million East Asian people aren't accounted for, and 600 Million South Asian / Indian people aren't accounted for.
Current world population is 7.6 Billion, so 600M+400M+500M+600M=2.1Bn that are missing on this list that totals only approx. 5.5Bn
These numbers are generally a bit wishy-washy and a matter of opinion/classification, but simple math tells us that this list is missing approx. 2.1 Billion people, and the vast majority of the ones unaccounted for are not Caucasian. If anything, this page should list more than 7.6Bn people because some may be part of multiple ethnic groups (i.e. a Jewish Spaniard). Our understanding and discovery of ethnic groups is very incomplete.
Gentle ( talk) 20:25, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
So according to this, I have no ethnic group because it doesn't exist? We have no... culture, food, ancestry, history, homeland, language, or dialect? ...that seems a little racist. Exclusive rather than inclusive. 97.122.89.179 ( talk) 02:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I recently included information on Australian Aborigines, Malagasy and Papuans and had them removed for being racial categories rather than ethnicities. This seems wrong headed - The Australian aborigines are very clearly an ethnic group as well as a racial category, and to make it unacceptable to include them at all in the article simply wipes their existence from the books needlessly.
Likewise, the Papuan people are listed as ethnically distinct in their article, and with good reason - they are. They are a large ethnic group under which many smaller groups are included. Putting each tribe in the list would be unwieldy, but removing an ethnicity of over 2 million people from consideration entirely seems unwarranted.
The Malagasy inclusion was likewise cut, partly because several smaller groups are also included. Nonetheless, the Malagasy are generally considered am overarching ethnicity including these smaller groups, and once again placing every small tribal group under that umbrella would be a very intensive endeavor.
See Yoruba religion JMGM ( talk) 14:31, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Geronikolakis, why do your remove Macadonians from the list?( KIENGIR ( talk) 22:40, 20 June 2019 (UTC))
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2.85.10.166 ( talk) 09:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.
Kabyle no Kabule because Kabule the afloat with RED color — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:6609:D800:BD12:8256:1E8E:F608 ( talk) 18:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2A02:587:660F:1600:D17F:99C0:6E20:C50 ( talk) 14:16, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
( 2A02:587:660F:1600:D17F:99C0:6E20:C50 ( talk) 14:16, 27 July 2019 (UTC)).
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Please want to take an change
Thank you Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Kabyle no kabule because with kabule the red color Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
PLEASE NOT CHANGE THE NYMBER THANK YOU Aggelos1234 ( talk) 16:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
The last edit by Aggelos1234 is full of arbitrarily altered figures, which makes it hard to assume good faith. I took a random sample from figures which have Encyclopædia Britannica as source:
Kimbundu:
Uab Meto:
Igbo:
And so on. I'll revert and post a warning. – Austronesier ( talk) 20:18, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Source used in this article 46,380,000 in Spain, all users. L1 users: 42,700,000 in Spain (Instituto Cervantes 2017). L2 users: 3,680,000 (Instituto Cervantes 2017). Total users in all countries: 534,335,730 (as L1: 460,093,030; as L2: 74,242,700)
Please, If you have a different amount in your mind give another source to back it up Aggelos1234. Malotun ( talk) 14:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
No because the Portuguese is in the world 222.7 million who is alls ethnic genetics Portuguese El Britain ( talk) 15:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Portuguese ethnic group population from 222.7 million to 10.36 million. ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/po.html) Reason: using number of native speakers of a language as the same thing as ethnicity is obviously nonsense. Brazilians (and others from ex-colonies) are not Portuguese; they belong to a myriad of ethnic groups (ex. Japanese, Arab) and speaking Portguese does not make someone ethnically Portuguese. Change the population of Portuguese ethnic group to actual Portuguese people, and not everyone that speaks Portuguese. As an analog of this absurdity imagine considering the population of the US as ethnically British because their language is (mostly) English, not considering the actual culture and ethnicity. Alinefrost ( talk) 17:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to a study, there are about 42 million ethnic portuguese in the world, not 222.7 million. That's the number of speakers. The source is: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugueses#cite_note-1 87.196.72.86 ( talk) 17:46, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
Portuguese people in the world is 222.700.000 in the end thank you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikosgero1717 ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Nikosgero1717 ( talk) 07:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
( Nikosgero1717 ( talk) 07:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)).
This should probably not have a closing parenthesis after Baggara? 8bit ( talk) 21:10, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Venetians ethnic group speaking the Venetian language with its varieties. The group originated from the present area around the city of Venezia. Speakers of the Venetian language around 10 millions sprea all over the world because of the diaspora originated mainly after italian annexation of Venetian territories.
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tyronqe7 ( talk) 09:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
i wish add on new ethnic group from some of uganda monarchy ethnic group, i hope add in since still not there yet.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Austronesier ( talk) 10:20, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I don't believe Hindi-speaking individuals in states like Uttar Pradesh are listed under any of the ethnic groups listed. How should we go about fixing this? Some sources list them as "Hindustani people" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.175.192.200 ( talk) 21:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Egyptians is subgroup in arabs and Spaniards in the planet is 460 million and Happy new near 💙 Mandinka2000 ( talk) 18:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
I have just reverted some changes to this page today that deleted several groups and changed numbers despite them being properly sourced (and the sources were left in line). Could we discuss the rationale behind the deletions here please and arrive at a consensus. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 23:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I feel like the Copts need their own group, if the Assyrians have their own group, than the Copts should too. -- Toby Mitches ( talk) 06:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Just found a problem in the ' Masa' section under 'religion'. It claims they are just Islamic, which is wrong, about 45% is Muslim but also another 45% is Christian, if anyone is bothered, they could add Christianity, like in the Tutsi section, that'd be nice to see -- Toby Mitches ( talk) 06:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
This page for example lists about 60 million Portuguese and Portuguese descended people in the world. Defining ethnicity solely by language is not the practice for most other ethnicities on this list, including its closest analogue, Spaniards/Spanish speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:4E80:9550:9428:F9FC:F10D:F204 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Sirfurboy:,
recently as I see the edit history there was a debate about this..we should catch what the original additions meant to be. I have no problem to accept your argumentation, but you have to see in the Sugroups bracket all Spaniards all listed....so then where else their total number should be shown?( KIENGIR ( talk) 02:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC))
Hello. You have greatly reduced the number of Uzbeks and given incorrect information. I will give you the right source and ask you to correct it as soon as possible-- Asadbek Botirqulov ( talk) 16:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC). [1]
References
Korean section: Korean Peninsula population is 77 Million. The real factual number for the Korean population is 86-90 Million. If you count all ancestral populations with Overseas Korean Population it would be about 100 Million at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanPenin5ulaKP ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
What about the fertility rates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.66.154.110 ( talk) 09:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Some numbers in the table have four significant digits. That implies a precision that cannot be achieved, because ethnic groups cannot be delineated precisely (as we mention in the lead). I'd suggest we reduce the precision of all numbers to two significant digits. More than that would be misleading. — Chrisahn ( talk) 16:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
When you sort the ethnicities by population the altai and cheyenne will show up at the top/bottom instead of in the order they belong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vendarian ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Are there not a separate ethnic group now? I don't talk about the racial group of black people in the US nut the group which comes from slaves but now blended into one ethnicity and has a certain culture (200 years already). (so this group WILL NOW include recent African immigration). Afrikaners are included too for example despite also being a group originally from thge Dutch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.15.241.95 ( talk) 18:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Should we add writing system next to Languages? Doremon764 ( talk) 18:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
The chart rows are now merged in some areas. Doremon764 ( talk) 02:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Primary, Subgroup, and number of people are mixed. Doremon764 ( talk) 02:33, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
If Ukraine is listed in Russia's subgroup, then why isn't Russia listed in Ukraine subgroup? They have each others largest diaspora. -G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.44.122.209 ( talk) 19:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
None of the ethnic groups between 'Arab Britons' and 'Ayrums' are being displayed. ArenTMA ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Arab Britons are described as" an endangered Amazonian tribe of hunter-gatherers"... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.50.131.40 ( talk) 08:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Surely this list should be split by Continent, i.e List of Ethnic groups in Africa or Europe-- WALTHAM2 ( talk) 23:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed a few Indian castes on this list (e.g. Brahmin and Boyar caste). Are they actually seperate ethnicities? Or am I opening a huge can of worms raising this? -- Roisterer ( talk) 09:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Did some industrious editor get tired of working on this page after they got through "H"? Because getting all of this information on to one page is a helluva lot of work and is very useful (even realizing that the population numbers are quickly outdated).
If anyone wanted to return and finish I-Z, I certainly would applaud the effort! Newjerseyliz ( talk) 22:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Seriously, when you order things by population in the table, you can see how outrageous the numbers are. I mean, there's no way there are 300 million Bengalis and Bretons. How about thos 38 million Chickasaws in the United States? Or 280 million Arabs? I'm going to try to fix all this. InMooseWeTrust ( talk) 18:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
While I have no objections to the classification of the descendants of African slaves living in the U.S. as "stateless," (which is, in itself, a controversial opinion that I happen to adopt) I think the justification for this claim ought to be reconsidered. It is not due to "mental conditioning" by European/American colonizers that African-Americans cannot (or do not) identify with a state in West Africa. A more valid reason is that most West African states which exist today did not exist at the time of slavery in the U.S. More, it is extremely probable that most African-Americans are of mixed ethnic ancestry (not to mention mixed racial ancestry) due to the intermingling of various African ethnic groups once they reached the New World via slave ship. Lastly, as descendants of Black slaves have likely had lineages extant in the U.S. for centuries, it is not unexpected that they would not trace their personal ethnic identities back to a single African state. Even many White Americans who have ethnic group-specific last names may not identify with a particular European state due to intermarriage through the generations, a loss of record of where their families came from, and/or a lack of interest in identifying as European after numerous generations are born in the U.S.
71.162.197.201 ( talk) 02:57, 13 October 2013 (UTC)Chuck G.
this list is ostensibly a wiki-trainwreck of the first order, and should be divided into "list of lists" format linking to the applicable sub-lists. I do not think it is at all salvageable. -- dab (𒁳) 12:15, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
in fact, looking through the list, I find it is worse than useless, because it contains patently false information, especially concerning populations (naturally all unreferenced).
I have compiled a list of the largest dozen or so ethnic groups and checked their approximate sizes with the linked articles on the group, their language, their diasporas, etc. I suppose if there is to be any list on this page at all, it will need to build on that and begin with the really large groups. Collections of minor groups must go to regional sub-articles. If nobody objects I will remove the broken general list. -- dab (𒁳) 14:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
look, I told you I would fix it, and I said it would take some hours, so at least give me a chance, would you?
I am done now. I settled for citing ranges where the "ancestry" question messes up estimates. I also updated the figures to CIA Factbook estimates where possible (the Indian groups add millions to their headcount on a yearly basis). I understand you mostly care about listing the Italians. I now give "60–140 million". It is not acceptable to simply say "140 million" and as "reference" give a link to some pdf file on the internets. We now have a low and a high estimate and a footnote explaining why they are so far apart. I did the same for Germans, French and English. This problem is mostly encountered with European groups. This has political reasons (Europe is in the process of abolishing ethnic groups altogether, or at least attempting to stigmatize the concept) but also historical ones (ethnic miscegenation in the US takes generations, and is now in the process of becoming basically untraceable. Two generations ago, most Americans still had an ethnic identity, now most have a long list of ancestries). In the case of Turks and Arabs, the question is also political, in this case not because attempts of abolishing the concept, but on the contrary the attempt to inflate one's own count as much as possible. -- dab (𒁳) 09:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I expected this, and it came up quicker than I feared.
Yes, we need to make explicit what method we base these estimates on. Preferably based on a single identifiable
WP:RS. If we mix references, we mix methods, and the result will be unusable.
Peoples with colonial histories are difficult. The Japanese are a good example of a well-defined ethnic group. So, to a somewhat lesser extent, are the Russians. The Germans are notoriously difficult, as are the Irish, English, Spaniards, and Portuguese.
By definition we do not want to count everybody who speaks Spanish (because Spanish is a multicultural, multi-ethnic, even multi-racial lingua franca); conversely, we probably don't want to count remote descendants of Germans who emigrated to the USA as "Germans" just because they ticked "German ancestry" in the census. -- dab (𒁳) 15:06, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I know. I am not done with this, you caught me in the middle of building the table.
But I don't have time to finish it today anyway.
I think we will have no choice than to fall back on a published source which has done this work already.
I suggest the criterion should be, "people who identify as $ETHNIC primarily, retaining cultural and linguistic ties". You need to sift through the "diaspora" article in every case. This will take hours. As I said, it's very easy with the Japanese, because they retain a strong ethnic identity. If you ask me, count only those parts of the " German diaspora" living in German-speaking communities. Out of "50 million German Americans" maybe count a quarter million of Pennsylvania Dutch, plus maybe another couple of thousand from smaller communities. But again, even if we agree on a methodology like that, it will still be WP:SYNTH, so we'll have to look out for published sources.
The problem is endemic to Wikipedia. People started to build "$ETHNIC diaspora" articles like it was going out of fashion. After ten years, this Wikipedia trend has actually had an effect on how the term "diaspora" is used in the real world.
A "diaspora" used to be a tight-knit ethnic community scattered among a host ethnicity. It is wrong to use French diaspora for anyone descended from 18th-century French settlers. Or at least it used to be wrong before Wikipedians imposed this usage. Now it's not "wrong", it's just misleading, and open to a wide range of interpretations. -- dab (𒁳) 15:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps require "native speakers", as there is no ethnic group in the world that isn't connected to a language.
This cuts only one way. "English speaker" does not imply "English ethnicity", but "English ethnicity" must imply "native English speaker". So the figure cited can in no case be larger than the total number of native speakers, and it must be smallers if there are identifiable groups who natively speak the same language. This is how I estimated 100 M Germans (maybe it's closer to 90M). From this also follows that there cannot be more than 60M or so Italians, or 47M or so Gujaratis. It's useful as a sanity check.
Or perhaps the proposition of building a "list of ethnic groups by size" is flawed from the beginning and we should drop it. -- dab (𒁳) 15:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
the thing is, if this is to be done properly, it needs hours of work. It's not so much about who is right but about who is willing to do the work. I started adding references now. If there is a huge margin between high and low estimates, you cannot just cite the high estimate. If you want to include "ancestry", you need to go through sources and distinguish between reported single and partial ancestry. And whatever we do, we shouldn't just copy-paste figures from other articles, as these are notoriously flawed. All ethnic articles are perpetually trolled by people who are hell-bent on somehow inflating the importance of their ethnic group. Any reference cited in these articles must be verified, never believe the reference actually states what the article says it does, and always ask yourself if the reference is neutral and "reliable" to begin with. Never use "estimates" by emigrant interest groups, these always inflate figures, often up to 10 times anything that can be considered reasonable. These people have axes to grind, and I am happy to accept they do, but this means their "estimates" cannot be used for the purposes of Wikipedia. -- dab (𒁳) 08:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
look, I told you I would fix it, and I said it would take some hours, I cannot do magic.
I am done now. I settled for citing ranges where the "ancestry" question messes up estimates. I also updated the figures to CIA Factbook estimates where possible (the Indian groups add millions to their headcount on a yearly basis). I understand you mostly care about listing the Italians. I now give "60–140 million". It is not acceptable to simply say "140 million" and as "reference" give a link to some pdf file on the internets. We now have a low and a high estimate and a footnote explaining why they are so far apart. I did the same for Germans, French and English. This problem is mostly encountered with European groups. This has political reasons (Europe is in the process of abolishing ethnic groups altogether, or at least attempting to stigmatize the concept) but also historical ones (ethnic miscegenation in the US takes generations, and is now in the process of becoming basically untraceable. Two generations ago, most Americans still had an ethnic identity, now most have a long list of ancestries). In the case of Turks and Arabs, the question is also political, in this case not because attempts of abolishing the concept, but on the contrary the attempt to inflate one's own count as much as possible. -- dab (𒁳) 09:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I would like to expand the list to "50 million or more"; but not today. Atm we have the Irish, there are about 6 million in Ireland, but "ancestry" estimates go from "50 to 80 million". Needless to say, the dozens of millions of "Irish Americans", "English Americans" and "German Americans" will turn out to be the same individuals ticking several ancestries. The Gujaratis seem to hover close to 60 million, and the Persians close to 70 million (inflated counts nonwithstanding). Of course there are more Persians that Portuguese, because there are 60-70 million Persians and "11-100 million" Portuguese (in sane reality more like 11-40 million, if not 11-15 million). -- dab (𒁳) 10:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I have several suggestions for modifications to the new List of contemporary ethnic groups revamp. However, having only worked on the trainwreck version of the page, I'm curious to see if these could be implemented without disrupting the now better-organised page.
Perhaps we could also the limit for "largest contemporary ethnic groups" to ten or twenty million from forty million. Ethnic groups vary quite wildly and a good portion of them lie in the single-digit millions range. Some of the more prominent ethnic groups with small numbers such as the Balkans or some African ethnic groups are excluded as a result of this criteria. Lowering the bar may mean more entries but it provides a more wholesome picture of the largest ethnic groups in my opinion.
The "homeland" section seems to give an incomplete view of the distribution of ethnic groups. I personally prefer "countries with highest concentration of ethnic groups" or something along those lines. It does result in some arbitrariness and ambiguity, so if it violates MOS, then I'd understand.
Could flags be included in the "homeland" section? I have ever tried implementing flags in another list with a table such as this one but it was rejected for violating MOS:Flags. I don't know if it's the same case here and I'm not willing to repeat that mistake again.
AlexTeddy888 ( talk) 13:54, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
There are more than 10 millions of them, so they should be somewhere in the table.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.98.160.141 ( talk) 07:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be an edit war over the inclusion of "European Americans" as an ethnicity. Under WikiProject it is officially an ethnic group, but personally, its status its debatable. For one, it's very broad. "European" refers to hundreds of ethnicities residing in Europe and is too diverse to be included as a separate entry on this page. Even if it were separated into 'Croatian American' or "Anglo-American", it feels superfluous to contain a subcategory of an ethnic group simply because they reside in another country.
Your thoughts? AlexTeddy888 ( talk) 10:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
It stated that there are 50 millions berbers, which is much higher than 30 millions refered here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.199.69.1 ( talk) 16:29, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Then under your logic African-American is far too large to be an ethnic group. Some countries in Africa have more ethnic groups and languages spoken within it than All of Europe combined.
2602:306:375D:C2F0:C01D:87B9:C507:10B (
talk)
17:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[Whoisgreater?]
This page contains a link to ethnic groups in Africa. Many of those listed on the linked page are larger than the smallest groups listed on this page. Since this page is supposed to list the largest ethnic groups, is there a good reason why African groups - such as the Kongo, of 100 million, equal to the English - are not listed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OldDundonian ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I've been noticing some anonymous reverts on this article; since it would be pretty embarassing to start an heated edit war, which would lead to nowhere but trouble, I'll be starting a dialogue (or, at least, try to do it). The anonymous, always deleting the voice, states Sardinians are not an ethnic group (too bad the reason why they wouldn't is left to the imagination), therefore they absolutely shouldn't be here; a source has been provided saying the opposite, so I've done nothing but restore part of the reverted edit adding the above-mentioned reference; however, the anonymous once again deleted what's been written asserting I posted a source stating exactly what he/she's being saying. The encyclopedia says as follows: ...It is not easy to define the charateristics of Sardinians as an ethnic group, but certainly the common linguistic tradition and insularity are two crucial elements... and ...It is difficult to conceive of Sardinian culture as a homogeneous whole, despite the region's insularity and its unique history; it is, however, possible to highlite some distinctive themes in its popular culture.; therefore, in my opinion the source considers Sardinians to be an ethnic group indeed for historical and linguistical reasons, in spite of the fact it couldn't be that easy to portrait their culture as a monolith (the same thing, however, could be said to any people). That said, I just want to raise the issue on this talk page in order to invite the anonymous to give me some reasons about her/his recent edits, so that we could discuss about the problem (otherwise, I'll be bringing back the page as it was before), as well as to ask for a third opinion. [I'd be pleased if you correct my grammar mistakes]. -- Dk1919 ( talk) 13:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Why Catalans, Valencians, Castilians, Andalusians, Asturians, Aragonese and Leonese people are considered separated ethnic groups? They speak overall Spanish language and they have a commune history and culture. Why greek, greek Cypriots and pontik Greeks aren’t the same ethnic group in different area but they are considered indipendent ethnos? Maybe is a group of person an ethnic group just if it has an official recognition from a state? Are Flemish, west Fleming and Dutch people different just because they live in different (adjoining) areas? Here, each group of jewish persons is considered like an independent ethnos. Nowadays Judaism is just a religion! Spanish jews are spanish, german Jews are german! They speak spanish and german (or german dialect) respectively, and they live the culture and the history of those countries. Jehovah's Witnesses marry other Jehovah's Witnesses but nobody considers them as an ethnic group! Moreover lots of Ashkenazi Jews (everybody of them perhaps) have European ancestry!
Then, according to this list Manx, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English people are independent groups but Italians are a unique ethno-group, except sanmarinese people. What? It’s senseless! This list is completely arbitrary. Italy has been a “league” of different mediterranean groups since 153 years about. 153 years are not many! The union among Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England or the union among the different parts of Spain are older than italic union one. The influences among Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, or among Catalonia, Castile, Andalusia, etc, are the same historical influences among Sardinia, Sicily, Veneto, Piedmont, etc. Italy is the state (desired by Savoy and, yes, by English monarchy) but in Italy there are several characteristic groups.
If for Spain it needs to distinguish Catalans, Valencians (they’re Catalans too!), Castilians and Leoneses, and in UK/Ireland there are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh people, therefore in Italy there are Sardinians in Sardinia, Sicilians in Sicily, Neapolitans in south Italy, ladins and Venetians in Veneto, Occitans and Piedmonteses in Piedmont, Slovenians and Friulians in Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Arpitans in Aosta Valley, Austrians (or German?) in AltoAdige, Tuscans in Tuscan (Sardinia and even Corsica), Emilian-Romagnols in north Italy (Sanmarineses are precisely emilian-romagnol, not an independent ethnic group), Ligurians in Liguria (and in France too), Lombards in Lombardy and Switzerland.
Here I’ve read “The most important people from Sardinia show a deep Italian culture. Grazia Deledda won the Nobel Prize for her work written in Italian”. Therefore the most important people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland write in english and they show a deep English culture! Swift, Wilde, Stoker, Joyce, Hume, Even irish people speak English especially! The Cranberries sing in English. Sicilians (or Sardinians or the others) is to Italy as Scotland (or Wales or the others) is to UK. Here I’ve also read “two Presidents of the Italian Republic were from Sardinia”, so Sardinians aren’t an ethnic group for this reason? What? Therefore the Prime Ministers Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, James Ramsay MacDonald, Henry Campbell-Bannerman, Arthur James Balfour were Scottish! David Lloyd George was welsh even if born in Manchester. Even queen Elisabeth has Scottish ancestry!
Too arbitrary points of view in this list. Genetics says there aren’t specific traits among peoples in Europe, genetically we are an unique European ethnic group, with different histories and languages. Genetically malteses are like Sicilians, but they speak a language derived from an old Arabic dialect spoken in Sicily during the Arabic domination. So this list is just based on cultural arbitrariness. How many persons in Wales, in Scotland or in Ireland know their autochthon languages? In Scotland just 1% speaks scottish Gaelic; in Wales just 12% are fluent in welsh. Even 26% of irish people can understand irish language (and Ireland is another state!). Manx language is extinct! Instead 37% Lombard area (included Switzerland), 50% Piedmonteses, 51% of Neapolitan-calabrian-apulian area, 77% of Venetians, 78% of Sardinians, 94% of Sicilians, etc, speak their local language.
Does the list contain neither nationalities nor religion? I don’t think so! It’s based just on religion and politics. Parameters should be the same for each group.--01:42, 26 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
188.153.229.67 (
talk)
You study sociology but I think you’ve never been in Italy. Italy is not just pasta and pizza. Its history, or rather its histories and its cultures are fascinating and very complex. I absolutely don’t want to offend but you probably read bad history books. I advise you to talk with your sociology teacher. Yes, nowadays the Italian culture exists, nobody denies it, but this commune culture doesn’t exclude the differences among italic peoples. Exactly like in UK with welsh, scottish, english and irish people, or in Spain with catalan, castilian, and the other groups. Moreover Italian culture exists because the government imposed Italian as unique official language. It imposed italian because the inhabitants had to communicate, not because the government wanted to be evil. In fact Italian was the language more used among the north (not many but important) writers, sometimes Italian was a lingua franca among the states with different languages or with several dialects, for example in Lombardy-Venetia. Between the partenopean dialect and apulian dialect there are too differences phonetically. They look like two separated languages. However the population doesn’t know Dante Alighieri and Petrarca! Before the unification (and till 50’s of XX sec. about) people were ignorant! The majority of south Italy was illiterate! After the unification the most important south writers (especially sicilian) went in north Italy because they wanted to learn Italian perfectly, even if often their syntax remained non-italian. For example Giovanni Verga. Pirandello wrote with typical (traditionally but non-standard) sicilian orthography! The father of modern Italian language, Alessandro Manzoni, wrote in Italian but he spoke in French! There a famous sentence about Manzoni who went near Florence «a sciacquare i panni in arno» (to wash the clothes inside the Arno). Arno is the main tuscan river. He meant “tuscanize his language”. The Sardinian writer Grazia Deledda said «Io scrivo ancora male in italiano - ma anche perché ero abituata al dialetto sardo che è per se stesso una lingua diversa dall'italiana» (I stil speak a bad italian, even if I used to speak my sardinian dialect, that it is a different language comparated to italian». She won the Nobel prize «for her idealistically inspirited writings witch with plastic clarity picture the life on her native island and with depth and sympathy deal with human problems in general». Did Samuel Becket and Oscar Wilde write in english?
Till recently, when the Italian boys went for military service, they didn’t understand each other! Learning Italian language to the Italians was an urgent necessity, but it isn’t an “ethnic” language.
Later, with mass media and free educational, Italians have learnt this language, exactly like a Catalan speaks spanish or an Irish speaks english. Massimo D’Azeglio after the unification wrote «S’è fatta l’Italia, ma non si fanno gli italiani» which means «Italy has been made, but we can’t make the italians». Because the groups of Italy were very different. Even now there are some people who doesn’t speak Italian, especially the old people of the south. According to Tullio De Mauro (important linguist), in the time of unification just 2,5% could speak Italian.
It isn’t true that Italian has been the only cultural language! You’ve already remembered venetian. Sicilian has been the first literary language since XIII sec, when in Sicily was Frederick II of the Hohenstaufen. After his domination, the Sicilian manuscripts was translated by the Tuscan copyists. Sicilian, Neapolitan, Sardinian, etc have our specific literature.
Plus, the flag of Sicily, for example, is one of the oldest flag in the world! The Sicilian Parliament is considered one of the oldest in the world. Sicilians have always been peculiarly sicilian! Sicilians identify themselves in sicilianness.
Sardinian was official with the Giudicati. However also in Switzerland Italian is an official language, or English in Ireland. And how long has English language been using commonly in Scotland, Ireland and Wales? Why English can be an official language or common language of these so-called separated ethnicities, but if Sardinians or Sicilians use Italian they lose the “ethnic dignity”?
Tuscan and Italian is the same language! Where have you read your information? Italian is the national standard derived by literary fourteenth-century Tuscan. Contemporary Tuscan is a dialect non-literary of Italian language.
Sure, you can say «in this list we have to include just the groups that the respective state recognizes», but you can’t say «Italian people are one of the most homogeneous ethnic groups», this is the fascist idea of Mussolini! The influences among part of Italian peninsula is obvious, Italy is a narrow land surrounded by the sea, but the different part didn’t a real unique culture before television and obligatory education in italian. And these differences are evident and alive nowadays too.
So in this list there are scottish, welsh and irish people, even if they have the same culture of english people and they speak always the same language (except a little minority). On the contrary in Italy:
• linguistically there are several alive differences among the different parts;
• the history of different parts was different till the Savoy unification (remember the unification of UK or Spain is older than it). Between the fall of Roman Empire and the savoyard kingdom of Italy there was 1385 years (one thousand three hundred and eighty five!);
• Italian people, in addition to Latins, have different genetic influences according to geographic area, etruscan, celtic in north; Sardinia has always been rather isolated; and greek, semitic, norman and preindoeuropean in south (however especially greek and anatolian). Moreover with the migrations, south people went in north but north people didn’t go in south, so north Italy could be more “italically” homogeneous, on the contrary south and islands are more homogeneous only locally: Sardinians with Sardinians, Sicilians with Sicilians, etc.
• There are also some differences in physical appearance! More differences than among english, irish, scottish and welsh people!;
Anyway for you, and your books, sardinian or sicilian ethinic group doesn’t exist, but irish and welsh groups exist. When you talk about groups of italic persons genetic isn’t important, languages aren’t important, traditions aren’t important, history isn’t important (except the very old Roman Empire). what is important for an ethnic group? There’s a big difference between ethnic group and national border. Italy is a nation-state but it isn’t an ethnic-state (“ethnic” according your interpretation of this term). It has surely a different politic compared with UK, but irish, scottish, english and welsh people are more homogeneous than sardinian, sicilian, venetian people, etc. So, this list is based just on politics, not on ethnicities. Or rather we should say “peculiar local characteristics”, in fact the only ethnicity in Europe is the so-called european, or white, or caucasian one. However if you want to call the different cultures “ethno”, you can’t discriminate any group. Or you include every single group, or you exclude all of them. Irish, scottish, welsh, english people is to UK culture as sardinian, venetian, sicilian, friulian, etc, is to Italian cultures, or rather among the italic areas there are more differences culturally, historically, linguistically, artistically, sociologically, traditionally, culinarily, etc. Italians are a unique group only when the national soccer team plays. Including in the list the invented sanmarinese ethnic group and denying the real peculiar identities is a big absurdity.
I hope you’ll talk with your teacher about this argument, better if not in a pub. Thank you.
--18:27, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
So, you confirm, this list is based on politic events and historical arbitrariness, because the ethnic groups are dynamic depending on the borders of the national recognized states. In fact a united state homogenize its citizens who have to communicate among them. But between a Welsh and an English there is the same level of communication than between a Sardinian and a Sicilian! Do you deny it? It have always been like this. Therefore if Italy had been separated in states, with their own official local language (only official!), italic ethnic groups would be existed. Given that in Italy the only common culture is officially the Italian one, the local differences doesn’t count, even if those differences constitute the real condition of majority of Italian inhabitants (especially in the south). Moreover you are Sicilian! Do you live your island? I can’t believe in you! I don’t like the secessionists, Italy can be an united state, but it’s undeniable that a Sicilian is to Italy as a Scottish is to UK. Factually is like that! Catalans use catalan at the school too and Sicilians use Sicilian at home (or in the classroom with their classmates), anyway they use their respective languages! Probably you are one of these persons who snubs sicilian language, but it’s undeniable its lively use in the island.
If the data of De Mauro is wrong it doesn’t matter, because in any case even nowadays Sicilians use Sicilian more than, for example, welsh people use welsh. Italian language and all national symbols have not removed (especially in south Italy, included Sardinia) the local languages and peculiar identities. Majority of sicilian people or Neapolitans migrated abroad spoke and speak in Sicilian and Neapolitan! Often also the new generations.
Europe (and generally all west world area) is completely globalized and homogenized. The main differences among the people concern languages, mentalities or eating habits (irrespective of politics, laws, economies). So, a recognition of a group as ethnic group is just an arbitrariness officialized by a government. Spain recognize the ethnic groups, so you say «they exist», UK idem. France, Germany and Italy have always been more centralist, so you think «these countries are very homogeneous ethnically!». Sorry, but only a blind can’t see the diversities of his own nation! The same differences existing in Spain among its communities, and the similar differences among the various parts of UK (or rather in south Italy there are more differences in relation with Italy).
Anyway you wrote that languages wasn’t important, genetic wasn’t important, politic and social factors are obviously dynamic, and nowadays irish, scottish, welsh and english people have a common culture. So, this ethnic separation is unjustified no more. Maybe it come from traditional and politic distinction. Therefore this page should be called “list of recognized official modern groups”. Otherwise no list would be objective.
I’ve the impression you want to deny the existence of a peculiar sicilian group, with some pretext.
Everywhere there was invasions and migrations. The influences created the (dynamic) cultures and societies, new languages, etc. But I didn’t say that Sicilian ethnicity exists in name of its past. Sicilian (and Sardinian or Neapolitan) peculiarities are still lively, now!
Your translation about the sentence of D’Azeglio doesn’t change the nitty-gritty: the Italian culture is recent, the local cultures are oldest (and alive).
According to Treccani we are both right: Tuscan is to a certain extent italian language, but typologically it’s close to a separate language. Giannelli said we can talk about just a «graduale decantazione degli elementi insidiati da usi standard».
I hope you joked when you denied the sicilian syntax of Verga. Tell me that you were joking. Verga is one the most important writer of Italy! Even if you’ve never read a book of him, every anthology says that! And in every school we study Verga’s works thoroughly. I’m not going to quote a piece of his novel. The Anglophone wouldn’t understand anything. So, please don’t give false information.
Pirandello wrote “ajuto” instead of “aiuto”, “vojaltri” instead “voi”, ecc. like common traditional (non-standard) sicilian “ajutu”, “vuautri”. However Pirandello Nobel prize of italian doesn’t remove siciliannes. Therefore all welsh, scottish and irish authors write in English! Samuel Beckett is a Nobel prize too. He wrote in English (and French), but according to you Pirandello is a proof of italiannes of Sicilians, instead Becket or Wilde could write in English remaining ethnically irish.
In this list all the so-called independent european ethnic groups must be delete, or the article’s name should become “list of recognized official modern groups”.
I don’t advise you to reply on the spur of the moment. Ponder harder, talking with other people.
Unni jisti a scuppari pi taliari di unni sugnu? Talianu 100%, sicilianu 0%? Accussì ni nzìgnaru, ma s’ava a stari attangati dintra pi nun addunàrisi ca cà i cristiani hannu saputu mantèniri zoccu d’un sicilianu u fa sicilianu.
The italian government has always been centralist, you obviously know. And you also know that italian culture didn’t exist before television (except for very few well-to-do intellectuals who were making it), so it isn’t true the sentence “Italy [and German] are two examples of national cultures born before the nation-state”. It’s very very false. The Treccani encyclopedia confirms that several cultural anthropologists and historians affirm that ethnicities are just arbitrariness. According to Treccani among the scholars (Weber, Banton, Smith, Morris, Schermerhorn, Glazer, Connor, Barth, Moynihan, Horowitz) there are several dissonances about the expression “ethnic group”. That encyclopedia talk about “the revival of ethnic movements in countries where the ethnic divisions were considered part of the past and completely irrelevant in contemporary situation.” among which scottish and welsh people. Then it wonders “why has asleep ethnic relationships achieved a lot of social importance that they require un official recognition?”. According to Hechter the ethnonationalism revives because of local disastrous economical development, but also because an area is richer than another, for example Veneto recently in Italy, secessionist among secessionists of “Padania” (but Venetians are also a cultural historical group, “padanians” have just an economical specious motivation). as Treccani says “the issue about ethnic groups has been interesting for some scholars of various social sciences, they have analyzed it with their own methods, often without considering the other pertinent works. So, their results are often opposed instead of complementary”. So there are no objectivities in this article.
In this page, the “ethnic European groups” should be deleted. Or, if we have to consider all peculiar local differences it need to add every typical group, irrespective of national borders. Or it’d need to say that factually there are other groups without official recognition.
If Americans mix together Pulcinella and gondolas, we must clarify to them the differences! Apart the irony, the constitution of Sicily doesn’t show anything. How did scottish or welsh people write? But they are separate ethnic groups and Sicilians or Sardinians (with all Italy) are the same group. Why this double standard? “Nation” is a politic concept, but “ethnicity” should follow other parameters.
Sorry, I don’t want to be boring but you contradict yourself, because you say “If we took in consideration the local culture we would have at least 3 different ethnic groups only in Sicily. […] In Sardinia we would have at least 4 different ethnic groups”, then you talk about a “fictional Sicilian group” (fictional!! We aren’t at all talking about Padania!). Plus you say that languages aren’t important for ethnicity, then you say “Scottish are tv channels only in scots” or “In Catalunia more than 50% of films at Cinemas are in Catalan”. Languages are or aren’t important? Anyway it doesn’t matter, Sicilians use a lot more their language than Scottish people use theirs (if you live in Sicily you can confirm that Sicilian is used in every social class, also in the cities). Sicilian language hasn’t any recognition and the institutions has always disseminated the idea that Sicilian is just a vulgar dialect (according to Italian meaning). On the contrary catalan in official. A formalization of Sicilian language could mean “to reawaken the autonomist sentiments”. A channel in sicilian would be not much advantageous economically, even because Sicilian language hasn’t a standard and it has a lot of dialects, so Italian is (and was) a good way to understand each other. Languages is an important ethnic characteristic. It doesn’t count just in some cases, for example Mexicans speak Spanish, but they are another group (or groups); in many African states people speak English or French and their constitutions are written in English or in French, but they aren’t English or French. Sami people speak Norwegian, Swedish or Finnish, but those one aren’t their ethnic languages. Instead Catalan is the language of Catalans, Sicilian is the language of Sicilians, Sardinian is the language of Sardinians, so it’s an ethnic peculiarity.
Yes I keep comparing Sicilians or Sardinians to Scottish people or Catalans. The source talk about recognized groups. My disquisition is coherent. Who is Spanish and who is Catalan? According to Spain Dalí was Spanish (from Catalonia), Picasso was Spanish (from Andalusia) as Verga was Italian and Sicilian. Catalans are Spanish but not every Spanish people are Catalan. The person who has a Sicilian identity is part of Sicilian ethnicity (language, customs and traditions, the most part of ancestry’s history, similarities of religion rituals, attitudes, mentality, sharing of the same mother earth, etc). Nowadays the term appropriated for UK and Ireland should be for example “irishunitedkingdomian”. I know it’s very horrible. British is inappropriate because irish people live in another island, not in Great Britain. But a missing terminology cannot be a reason of a different treatment!
I could imagine everything but behind this page there was a Sicilian who denies the “ethnic similarities” among Spanish, irish-british and Italian situations!
With the last changes the article is much better, you could add in “subgroups” the sentence, for example, “local identities”. I don’t know why now there are a subclassification for Germans and French people but for Italians nothing of the sort. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2.40.250.233 (
talk)
18:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
<ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).</ref> isn't an ethnic census. Statistically speaking it is a limited sample of people living in Sicily that has been chosen for a survey. You have to provide an ethnic census of all the population like the one of the Istat in Italy. Or we go nowhere. I hope I was clear.--
Walter J. Rotelmayer (
talk)
11:32, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
References
The introduction to this list is very brief but I think it is important to mention that ethnicities are not mutually exclusive. For example, on Wikipedia I run into editors who argue that an individual could not be Jewish and German. They imply that individuals have only one ethnicity. But for millennia, people have migrated and intermarried and shared customs. Many people are biracial and if you ask an individual what their heritage is, they might mention 5 or 6 different ethnicities. Many individuals identify with multiple ethnic identities. Liz Read! Talk! 23:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to split this page into several sections for different ranges of the populations of different ethnic groups, as is done here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias#All_Wikipedias_ordered_by_number_of_articles
(Though replacing the word "articles" with "ethnic populations"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Last edited by: ( talk • contribs) 02:11, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Why do we have entries under the "Majority (plurality) religion and sect" column with multiple religions? If we intend this column to show the most common religion there should only be one religion listed for each ethnicity. Many of the entries follow a "Religion → Sect" format (e.g., Azerbaijanis) but others list multiple religions (e.g., Bengali). Meters ( talk) 19:24, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
You gotta be kiddin' me. And 3.5M in Hong Kong only? Seriously? Like 'partial ancestry is counted, citizenship is counted, everything is counted'??? I am sorry to tell, but there is 7.5 million people in Hong Kong overall,92% of which are Han Chinese. So, if you count whatever you want, you shall write something like '300 M+ Russians as all the post-Soviet countries are at least 50% Russian ancestry and 100% of people living in Russia nowadays have ...surprise(!) Russian citizenship. So, the list is a crap, as for now, If you have such uncertainty and controversy for the nation in top-5, than how can you trust the data at all? 119.33.136.192 ( talk) 11:37, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Why only sicilians are specifically subdivided here (in sicilian-americans, -canadians, -argentinians). If you're going to mention these you gotta mention: sicilian -uruguayans, -brazilians; german-americans, -canadians, -argentinians, -bolivians, -mexicans, -brazilians; lithuanian-americans, etc etc and so forth. 20:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.86.255.5 ( talk)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on List of contemporary ethnic groups. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:38, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a note (as citation) that says:
"There is no clear definition of Spanish ethnicity. In Spain, ethnic identity is divided into regional groups, and internationally, Spanish ethnicity is not clearly delineated from "Spanish ancestry" in the territories of the former colonial empire. There are 41 million Spanish nationals in Spain, and some 2 million living abroad. The total worldwide rounds to more than 47 million."
However the Spanish government has a clear definition of what "Spanish nationality" is. Though the Spanish ethnicity's consideration as a single ethnic identity is contested in Spain it is fairly clear that people of Spanish descent who are not Spanish citizens (not of Spanish parents) and who have are of another ethnic identity are not included.
Furthermore it appears the majority of Spanish speaking Americans do not identify as "Spanish" but rather with their own nationalities and racial/ethnic identities. By the logic of "ethnicity" by descent alone the "British ethnicity" should be much greater in number and all former Roman provinces could be called Italian. It's a very faulty logic. This entry needs major edits, at least one which takes an estimate of those inhabitants of "Hispanic America" who identify as Spanish to distinguish them from those "Hispanic Americans" who do not. If a remotely correct estimate is made in sure the number of Spaniards is much lower than 500 million. Mepersondudeman ( talk) 08:59, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on List of contemporary ethnic groups. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
In general I've noticed a problem here that many people are not aware of the difference between the two. Each nationality usually has many ethnic groups and language, some nationalities assimilate their minorities. Saying that one group is just a 'type of this larger group' works if you clarify the relationship, but it doesn't negate the existence of the smaller community. My ethnicity is Sicilian, my Nationality is Italian. They do not conflict they're just different. But my other ethnicity is Irish and that Nationality is also Irish, in this case they are the same. But let's say I'm Irish Traveller? Ethnicity: Irish Traveller, Nationality Irish. Northern Irish? Azeri Iranian? Swiss German? Etc. You follow. In a lot of these countries the topic of ethnicity vs nationality is very political as ethnicity is viewed as a form of separatism. We need to be sensitive here to the fact that the word ethnicity doesn't mean 'has their own state' or even 'wants their own state'. Nationalism has nothing to do with your existence as a community, and in communities where assimilationism is the official policies we need to be even more careful to acknowledge the existence of these separate groups within a national identity. Paolorausch ( talk) 00:22, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Aymara might need fixing. Benjamin ( talk) 08:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
So I noticed British has been removed and reinstated a few times. I readded it twice recently, after being removed on the basis of English/Scottish/Welsh/Cornish/Irish being listed. I don't think it is fair to remove this purely on the basis of overlap. In cases such as the Scottish, the national identity has existed for much longer then the British national identity, but still the British have all lived together in the same archipelago for the last thousand years. The relationship between the various nations is complex. For example, the Cornish have been part of England for as long as they have been a separate group from the Welsh. And even while the Scots have been independent for most of history, they're intrinsically linked to the other nations through their partly Brittonic (Pictish) and Anglo-Saxon heritage. I don't think it's really up to a few editors on Wikipedia to decide what is or isn't an ethnicity. If we're going to start limiting the definition of what is an ethnicity, we need a very clear definition that can be consistently applied. Otherwise, any groups that can be considered ethnicities should be listed. Rob984 ( talk) 17:57, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Ethnicity is one of those porous terms that are difficult to numerate. The combination of cultural, racial, linguistic and religious differences make it a somewhat like making a list of colours. But given that we group Germans, Italians, French and Spaniards together as ethnicities, then doing the same with the British doesn't seem unreasonable. -- Inops ( talk) 19:49, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
After searching the whole discussion page I'm still wondering: Is there some criteria set for inclusion of specific ethnic groups in the list? For example a minimum population? I see that the smallest population estimates of the included ethnic groups are 0.2 million, but some other larger ethnic groups are still missing, even European ones, where data should be more easily accessible (I went on and added a few). Another issue is the inclusion of groups such as the ethno-religious ones, but I guess since Assyrians are included, then Copts, Druze and Maronites should also be. Of course it would be impossible to include all ethnic groups in one page, but I believe we should agree on some criteria for inclusion.
I'm also wondering what is the definition of sub-groups and what are the inclusion criteria for them? Should they refer to linguistic or other cultural definitions (e.g. religions)? Or is also the number of their population? Should recognized minorities numbering smaller population (e.g. the German-speaking minority of Belgium) included? There are definitely some inconsistencies there. For example I don't understand why Gozitans are included, but Madeirans or Azoreans are not. Also I can't see why some groups are included as subgoups, for example Carpatho-Rusyns and Lemkos in Ukrainians, although this is disputed by some ethnographists, or Afrikaners in Dutch, while they are members of UNPO?
Any suggestions are welcome! Argean ( talk) 02:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Rjrya395 ( talk) 04:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Regards. Argean ( talk) 10:00, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks and good to know that. Absolutely agree that there is no real difference between ethnic groups and indigenous people. I would add that, in my opinion, calling a group indigenous is actually a left-over of european colonialism, in an effort to deny their rights to self-identify as an ethnic group and discourage them to ask for further recognition. Personally, I will ignore the definitions given in the pages of the groups' description and I will include the ones that I mentioned before and others that I believe have the characteristics of an ethnic group, i.e. distinct identity, language, homeland, etc. Absolutely agree on the religion column as well and I don't find it very useful either. I'll follow the rules set, since it seems that we cannot get rid of it. I see that you are adding more African and Asian groups recently, so I'll go on editing the European ones basically, but keeping in mind that the list should remain inclusive and not too skewed towards one or another region. Best. Argean ( talk) 13:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Is there any aboriginal ethnic groups whose population is greater than 100,000? Because I'm not really comfortable that there is not one aboriginal group on this list. Rjrya395 ( talk) 04:28, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Argean,
what you have wriiten it edit log does not hold, Felvidék has an actual modern definiton, that is even known better than the historical one. Modern definition restricts the term to modern-day Slovakia, while the historic one is a bit broader, but includes the earlier. Further details see Upper Hungary. Cheers( KIENGIR ( talk) 01:17, 6 November 2018 (UTC))
Look; the statement that African Americans don't know their heritage due to "mental conditioning" is just completely asinine. It's difficult enough to convince people that slavery left a cultural imprint even without trying to blame a tangentially-related social ill on a polyethnic racial category like "Europeans."
African Americans have not been "conditioned against" knowing their heritage; they don't know it because the records have been lost and because many have intermarried. And in any case, blaming Europeans in general rather than slaveowners in particular for the very real mental and cultural conditioning of slavery... to blame the general rather than the specific: first, is to trivialize the sacrifices made by millions of whites (among others) who fought for the North during the Civil War; second, is to reject the solidarity expressed and realized by whites (among others) from the time of the Underground Railroad through the Civil Rights movement and into the present day; and third, is to ignore the dedication put forth by those researchers who have given us a glimpse into the real psychological and cultural cost that was actually incurred by slavery.
Because frankly, the notion that mental conditioning is even *capable* of preventing people from identifying with their heritage roughly seems to imply that African Americans have this superpower wherein they automatically know what African state they were from, a superpower that is deactivated as if by kryptonite whenever African Americans come into contact with "suppressive Europeans." (Did you catch the Scientology reference? Because that's the other thought-system the statement brings to mind...)
I'm going to delete the phrase "mental conditioning by Europeans" and replace it with the phrase "lost records and intermarriage". The text will then read, "Due to the inability to identify themselves with any particular African ethnic group or African state as a result of lost records and intermarriage, they are largely considered a separate ethnicity." In the future, if you wish to claim that "Europeans mentally conditioned African Americans to make them unable to identify with Africa," please give a reason, specifically one that is grounded in actual psychology and not just half-minded racist mythology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.173.18 ( talk) 02:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
You are absolutely incorrect. It was and still is a large effort in part by powers that be to knowingly wash and destroy the Heritage of Africans in America. I cannot believe your incongruent babble of insolence. Simply admonishing history because it does not make you comfortable is doing the exact thing that you claim the large majority of whites did not do. Simply because it was not the majority does not mean that Europeans did not do it. Please educate yourself and come to reality. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2602:306:375D:C2F0:C01D:87B9:C507:10B (
talk)
17:39, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Although the first user has a lot of questionable statements here (native Europeans are polyethnic? assuming all historical researchers were white? whites made a lot of sacrifice?), his/her overall agreement seems reasonable. The second user should respond with good points rather than just dismissing the argument. Wiki user wiki ( talk) 22:29, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Removed Arab world and Arab peoples as population of 400 million; it was biased (included Somalia?!) and was not in line with reality (Syria includes ethnic Syrians, genetically part of East Mediterranean genetic group, but also Arabs from Gulf). Too many mistakes to be accurate as a single ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Funhouse5050 ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
This article is an absolute trainwreck as described somewhere above. Arabs are not an ethnic group but a cultural and, arguably, linguistic group. They don't even speak the same language but a group of related ones. What ethnicity are Sudanese Arabs? Clearly a different one than Lebanese or Algerians.The Maghrebis are mainly of Berber stock and on a daily basis speak either Maghrebi Arabic (various versions) which is not intelligible with, e.g., Modern Standard Arabic. In addition you have local Berber languages. This all you could have looked up on Wikipedia. How the hell did someone come up with 100m French if France has less then 70m people, a lot of it of migrant origins. A few millions in Quebec clearly can't account for it (are they still French at all?). Han Chinese are not one ethnic group - again more of a cultural group. Hindustani up to 1.200billion??? Even worse for Italian and Irish - was every American claiming to be one of the other counted in just because his grand grand father on the maternal side was? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.34.9 ( talk) 20:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Arabic speaking ethnic peoples are largely excluded from this list. For example, there are no entries for countries located on the Arabian Peninsula. This is a huge oversight and needs to be remedied as quickly as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miramisk ( talk • contribs) 20:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I think this article needs to clearly define ethnicity as opposed to race. Race is, for example, black, white, Asian. Meanwhile, there is a reason the US census has "Hispanic" or "non-Hispanic" separately from the rest. There can be white Hispanics, black Hispanics, or native American Hispanics. With Arabs, I do think they are an ethnicity. They originated as a race, but there is also a separate Arab ethnicity of all *Arabized* peoples, including North Africans, Turks, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Iranians, etc. Arabs are nonetheless an ethnic group, though. Wiki user wiki ( talk) 22:36, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
What a horrible name for this list! List of existing ethnic groups, yes. List of extant ethnic groups, yes. Contemporary groups? When you're talking about possible historical entities, contemporary is more likely to mean "existing at the same time as each other. The Phoenicians, Babylonians, and the Lapita were contemporary, for instance. Grutness... wha? 13:57, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
The list total, taken estimates by their average, only amounts to 5.5Bn people. Also, breaking down said 153 ethnic groups that are listed here into U.S. Census-Style racial/ethnic uber-groups, this list disproportionately lists Caucasian groups, which could simply mean that most authors of this page are more familiar with Caucasian ethnic groups and less familiar with ethnic groups of non-Caucasian backgrounds. Particularly under-reported here are African/Black ethnic groups (based on African census data, approx. 600 Million people aren't listed on here), Latin American / South American groups (based on South/Latin american census data, 400 Million people aren't on this list), 500 Million East Asian people aren't accounted for, and 600 Million South Asian / Indian people aren't accounted for.
Current world population is 7.6 Billion, so 600M+400M+500M+600M=2.1Bn that are missing on this list that totals only approx. 5.5Bn
These numbers are generally a bit wishy-washy and a matter of opinion/classification, but simple math tells us that this list is missing approx. 2.1 Billion people, and the vast majority of the ones unaccounted for are not Caucasian. If anything, this page should list more than 7.6Bn people because some may be part of multiple ethnic groups (i.e. a Jewish Spaniard). Our understanding and discovery of ethnic groups is very incomplete.
Gentle ( talk) 20:25, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
So according to this, I have no ethnic group because it doesn't exist? We have no... culture, food, ancestry, history, homeland, language, or dialect? ...that seems a little racist. Exclusive rather than inclusive. 97.122.89.179 ( talk) 02:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I recently included information on Australian Aborigines, Malagasy and Papuans and had them removed for being racial categories rather than ethnicities. This seems wrong headed - The Australian aborigines are very clearly an ethnic group as well as a racial category, and to make it unacceptable to include them at all in the article simply wipes their existence from the books needlessly.
Likewise, the Papuan people are listed as ethnically distinct in their article, and with good reason - they are. They are a large ethnic group under which many smaller groups are included. Putting each tribe in the list would be unwieldy, but removing an ethnicity of over 2 million people from consideration entirely seems unwarranted.
The Malagasy inclusion was likewise cut, partly because several smaller groups are also included. Nonetheless, the Malagasy are generally considered am overarching ethnicity including these smaller groups, and once again placing every small tribal group under that umbrella would be a very intensive endeavor.
See Yoruba religion JMGM ( talk) 14:31, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Geronikolakis, why do your remove Macadonians from the list?( KIENGIR ( talk) 22:40, 20 June 2019 (UTC))
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2.85.10.166 ( talk) 09:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.
Kabyle no Kabule because Kabule the afloat with RED color — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:6609:D800:BD12:8256:1E8E:F608 ( talk) 18:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2A02:587:660F:1600:D17F:99C0:6E20:C50 ( talk) 14:16, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
( 2A02:587:660F:1600:D17F:99C0:6E20:C50 ( talk) 14:16, 27 July 2019 (UTC)).
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Please want to take an change
Thank you Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Kabyle no kabule because with kabule the red color Aggelos1234 ( talk) 12:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
PLEASE NOT CHANGE THE NYMBER THANK YOU Aggelos1234 ( talk) 16:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
The last edit by Aggelos1234 is full of arbitrarily altered figures, which makes it hard to assume good faith. I took a random sample from figures which have Encyclopædia Britannica as source:
Kimbundu:
Uab Meto:
Igbo:
And so on. I'll revert and post a warning. – Austronesier ( talk) 20:18, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Source used in this article 46,380,000 in Spain, all users. L1 users: 42,700,000 in Spain (Instituto Cervantes 2017). L2 users: 3,680,000 (Instituto Cervantes 2017). Total users in all countries: 534,335,730 (as L1: 460,093,030; as L2: 74,242,700)
Please, If you have a different amount in your mind give another source to back it up Aggelos1234. Malotun ( talk) 14:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
No because the Portuguese is in the world 222.7 million who is alls ethnic genetics Portuguese El Britain ( talk) 15:49, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Portuguese ethnic group population from 222.7 million to 10.36 million. ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/po.html) Reason: using number of native speakers of a language as the same thing as ethnicity is obviously nonsense. Brazilians (and others from ex-colonies) are not Portuguese; they belong to a myriad of ethnic groups (ex. Japanese, Arab) and speaking Portguese does not make someone ethnically Portuguese. Change the population of Portuguese ethnic group to actual Portuguese people, and not everyone that speaks Portuguese. As an analog of this absurdity imagine considering the population of the US as ethnically British because their language is (mostly) English, not considering the actual culture and ethnicity. Alinefrost ( talk) 17:15, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to a study, there are about 42 million ethnic portuguese in the world, not 222.7 million. That's the number of speakers. The source is: https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugueses#cite_note-1 87.196.72.86 ( talk) 17:46, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
Portuguese people in the world is 222.700.000 in the end thank you . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikosgero1717 ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Nikosgero1717 ( talk) 07:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
( Nikosgero1717 ( talk) 07:33, 10 November 2019 (UTC)).
This should probably not have a closing parenthesis after Baggara? 8bit ( talk) 21:10, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Venetians ethnic group speaking the Venetian language with its varieties. The group originated from the present area around the city of Venezia. Speakers of the Venetian language around 10 millions sprea all over the world because of the diaspora originated mainly after italian annexation of Venetian territories.
This
edit request to
List of contemporary ethnic groups has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Tyronqe7 ( talk) 09:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
i wish add on new ethnic group from some of uganda monarchy ethnic group, i hope add in since still not there yet.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Austronesier ( talk) 10:20, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I don't believe Hindi-speaking individuals in states like Uttar Pradesh are listed under any of the ethnic groups listed. How should we go about fixing this? Some sources list them as "Hindustani people" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.175.192.200 ( talk) 21:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Egyptians is subgroup in arabs and Spaniards in the planet is 460 million and Happy new near 💙 Mandinka2000 ( talk) 18:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
I have just reverted some changes to this page today that deleted several groups and changed numbers despite them being properly sourced (and the sources were left in line). Could we discuss the rationale behind the deletions here please and arrive at a consensus. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy ( talk) 23:05, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
I feel like the Copts need their own group, if the Assyrians have their own group, than the Copts should too. -- Toby Mitches ( talk) 06:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
Just found a problem in the ' Masa' section under 'religion'. It claims they are just Islamic, which is wrong, about 45% is Muslim but also another 45% is Christian, if anyone is bothered, they could add Christianity, like in the Tutsi section, that'd be nice to see -- Toby Mitches ( talk) 06:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
This page for example lists about 60 million Portuguese and Portuguese descended people in the world. Defining ethnicity solely by language is not the practice for most other ethnicities on this list, including its closest analogue, Spaniards/Spanish speakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:4E80:9550:9428:F9FC:F10D:F204 ( talk) 04:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Sirfurboy:,
recently as I see the edit history there was a debate about this..we should catch what the original additions meant to be. I have no problem to accept your argumentation, but you have to see in the Sugroups bracket all Spaniards all listed....so then where else their total number should be shown?( KIENGIR ( talk) 02:55, 12 February 2020 (UTC))
Hello. You have greatly reduced the number of Uzbeks and given incorrect information. I will give you the right source and ask you to correct it as soon as possible-- Asadbek Botirqulov ( talk) 16:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC). [1]
References
Korean section: Korean Peninsula population is 77 Million. The real factual number for the Korean population is 86-90 Million. If you count all ancestral populations with Overseas Korean Population it would be about 100 Million at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanPenin5ulaKP ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
What about the fertility rates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.66.154.110 ( talk) 09:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Some numbers in the table have four significant digits. That implies a precision that cannot be achieved, because ethnic groups cannot be delineated precisely (as we mention in the lead). I'd suggest we reduce the precision of all numbers to two significant digits. More than that would be misleading. — Chrisahn ( talk) 16:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
When you sort the ethnicities by population the altai and cheyenne will show up at the top/bottom instead of in the order they belong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vendarian ( talk • contribs) 04:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Are there not a separate ethnic group now? I don't talk about the racial group of black people in the US nut the group which comes from slaves but now blended into one ethnicity and has a certain culture (200 years already). (so this group WILL NOW include recent African immigration). Afrikaners are included too for example despite also being a group originally from thge Dutch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.15.241.95 ( talk) 18:50, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Should we add writing system next to Languages? Doremon764 ( talk) 18:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
The chart rows are now merged in some areas. Doremon764 ( talk) 02:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Primary, Subgroup, and number of people are mixed. Doremon764 ( talk) 02:33, 20 May 2021 (UTC)