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Which Italian Antonio da Sangallo are we interested in? Antonio da Sangallo the Elder or Antonio da Sangallo the Younger? Or both? Also, aren't they better served as architects than as artists? -- Ricky81682 03:47, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
This list seriously needs to be expanded. I was able to add nearly 20 composers alone. That's my part. Your turn. Antonio Juan Santiago Oneto (b. Chiavari, Italy, abril de 1826 - † Puerto Deseado, junio de 1885), Argentine marine of Italian origin, who contributed to the colonization of the actual province of Chubut and founded the patagonian city of Puerto Deseado.
Thanks.
09:32, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I feel this article should include people from the ancient Italian civilizations, currently it only has people who existed in post Roman, Etruscan, Grecian and Latin Italy. This is fairly strange as the article: List of Greeks incorporates ancient, classical figures alongside contemporary figures... Please could everyone start adding and linking Romans, Greeks, Latins, Etruscans etc. that originated or lived in the area of modern Italy to the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guyaubreydevito ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This is correct. Etruscan civilization and Romans. -- Davide41 ( talk) 17:23, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
This list seriously needs to be shortened. I was able to delete 5 athletes alone. That's my part. Your turn.
Thanks.
-- Tom 21:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In his listing, I don't think there need to be quotes around "Renowned Gymnastics Coach". Folks, he actually was a gymnastics coach, and coaching Shannon Miller gave him some renown. The quotes inject some sarcasm into his listing, as though he shouldn't be there. Mahalo. -- Coryma 23:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is Savonarola called a "Book burning priest, and ruler of Florence." Wouldn't "influential priest" be a little more appropriate? Also Napoleon was born on Corsica, a French island, so he isn't Italian is he? 67.173.240.92 20:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
A french island because France bought it from Genoa. And when Napoleone was born the island still was under the rule of Genoa. And it was (and still is) inhabitated by an Italian population.
Errors, vandalisms ... Work in progress. So much work to be done -- Davide41 ( talk) 18:33, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the list of Italians, not List of people of Italian origin. Should we have Silvester Stallone here? His family is of Italian origin. See Talk:Napoleon I. Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 13:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
01. " Silvester " but Napoleone originates from the Italian language. Original Italian Napoleone Di Buonaparte
Napoleon himself was Corsican, and as such his mother tongue was the Italian dialect spoken in Corsica. As a teenager he was admitted in a French military school, the other pupils laughed at him because of his heavy Italian accent. His mother tongue was not Corsican because his family, formerly known as Buonaparte, were minor Italian nobility coming from Tuscan stock of Lombard origin set in La Spezia.
In short terms. He was born Italian but later on became a French Emperor. Napoleon Bonaparte is technically Italian. -- Davide41 ( talk) 12:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Other Sources:
01. New World Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte".
02. World Book Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte".
" Respect but not my support ". Napoleon Bonaparte is technically Italian. Absolutely -- Davide41 ( talk) 10:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the guy that brought this up, and I think it's infantile to make the analogy with Italian-Americans as what we have here is a very different scenario. Italy was a divided country at this time and so maybe his links to his ethnic, linguistic and ancestral homeland are not as pronounced as they might be, yet the idea that he was a Frenchman over an Italian seems farcical, ultimately he was a transient european of italian descent, which makes him more italian than anything else. As for the idea that the country you live in is the country of your nationality - that's absolute baloney - Try telling Andy Murray or Catherine Zeta Jones that they're English... 86.1.109.215 ( talk) 17:54, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Davide41. Napoleon was Italian not French. Napoleon Bonaparte's real name was Napoleone di Buonaparte. The man was clearly Italian and not French. He learned to speak Italian first and then French. It is said that he was even made fun of in Paris because of his name, the darkness of his skin and his short stature. -- 93.147.197.38 ( talk) 21:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The historical journal « Storia In Rete » (whose documentaries are used by broadcasters: RAI and La7) included him in list of the most influential figures in Italian history. Scientific Committee:
"Napoleon was of Italian parentage. He ever remained faithful to the souvenirs of his origin. The Italian language was his mother tongue, and the interests of Italy were peculiarly near to his heart. [...] [...] It was one of the fondest dreams of Napoleon's noble ambition to restore Italian independence. He hoped, by his influence, to have been able to unite all these feeble governments in one great kingdom, containing twenty millions of inhabitants." [...]
Davide41, if you read WP:IG, which is a policy, you will see that this article does not need a gallery. For one, all the pictures you added are already in the relevant articles. Just because another article does not follow the guidelines doesn't give you carte blanche to ruin other articles. Do you want to improve articles or make them substandard? Another reason for not having a gallery is the large size of the article, see Wikipedia:Article size. Do you have a fast connection? Sometimes I don't, and I prefer lists to be lists, not beautified articles. Egg carton ( talk) 11:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
See:
" Cancellation for no reason " -- Davide41 ( talk) 18:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
This is simply a list of the seven king of Rome (244 years under seven kings). I see nothing inappropriate about this. " Simply a list "
" A civilization of ancient Italy in the area corresponding roughly to Lazio " -- Davide41 ( talk) 09:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
See:
Etc. -- Davide41 ( talk) 10:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
( ! ) I'm tired of discussing trivial things. I disagree with you. "Do as you please..." -- Davide41 ( talk) 11:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the New World Encyclopedia references. This states "The content of these articles is based largely on original Wikipedia articles examined and rewritten... Article writers and editors are solely responsible for article content" ( General disclaimer). Thus this work cannot be used as a reference for Wikipedia articles. In this case the references are redundant since each entry already has its wikilink. -- Mirokado ( talk) 22:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The notability/inventions attributed to these list members have some real factual accuracy problems. Just spot checking brings up "Niccolò Zucchi - constructing the first reflecting telescope (1616)" (he experimented but RS say he never got it to work)...... " Matteo Campani-Alimenis - Inventor of the Magic lantern" (no such credit given at Magic lantern)..... " Giovanni Battista Grassi - discovered that mosquitoes were responsible for transmitting malaria between humans" (not mentioned at Malaria). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 16:28, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia lists are for existing articles (per WP:LIST and WP:WRITEITFIRST) so I have removed these red linked names. This looks like a good set of names for article creation (if the claims are true). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 16:21, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
I have been reading ancient discussions and several statements regarding Napoleon nationality/ethnicity/citizenship/origin and whatever. I seriously don't see why it's so hard to understand some provable facts.
Napoleon was born in Corsica, an island off of Italy. At the time subject to the King of France but cultural, linguistic and ethnically belonging to the Italian nation. Furthermore, Italy as we know it geographically, does not comprehend only the Italian peninsula, but also its adjacent islands, therefore Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. (see: /info/en/?search=Geography_of_Italy)
Italian is not just a citizenship but also an ethnicity, which predates the founding of the modern country of Italy. Certainly an ethnic group (such as the Kurds in present-day) can exist without having a country to call its own.
Napoleone Buonaparte, his original name, was ethnically Italian even though he had French citizenship. The same can be said to Catarina de' Medici, Giovanni Battista Lulli and many others young Italians emigrated to France.
If the latters are included (rightly so) as Italians, I don't see why Napoleon is not.
Best regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by In Ratio Veritas ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Per this edit, Please write the article first. List are list of articles and members have a notability threshold ---> the member has a Wikipedia article. I fixed another similar edit by creating an article. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Done. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 21:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Dear Fountains of Bryn Mawr,
I have noticed you have the habit of reverting most of people additions. It would be very kind if you discuss your reasons to do so here in the talk section. Because as long as I know, your thoughts are so important than mine. Thank you. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 13:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking of adding some more categories into this list. How about "Lawyers"? Italy has a vast and long tradition in this field. Home of the Roman law, cradle of the civil law in the midle ages. How about "Stylists" or "Fashion designers"? "Industrial Designers"? There are plenty of prestigious Italians in both areas. Another good choice would be "Entrepreneurs". Regards. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 14:03, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I think it is better if this article contains some images of "Top ones", such as Fibonacci, Pacioli, Vinci, Giotto, Buffon, Rossi etc. -- 115ash →(☏) 16:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Who decides how gets to be on the list? Is there an authoritative list? If not, delete the article.
If I get the energy I am going to recommend deletion, plain and simple. Rococo1700 ( talk) 04:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I wanted a title to raise the hackles on the alopecic. I do not want to look through the many attempts in the past to kill these monsters. The fact that there are other nonsense lists does not mean there should be one here. Nonsense is nonsense whether it be English, French, American or whatever. This article should be definitely be deleted. Also Vaselineeeeee please state in bulleted form who does and who does not belong, I believe about half the people on this list do not meet criteria, can I delete them? Why not call this the List of Italian people who have a Wikipedia article? Rococo1700 ( talk) 17:28, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
My concern is that the rationale for the existence of this page, "is that the way things are, is the way things are." I object to any list that is too broad. I object to articles that are too long, or meander into infinity. Can you tell me when this article is complete or nearly complete in covering all important angles of the topic, or are we going to keep on adding thousands of Italians. I have created entries for some 3-4 thousand Italian painters, don't they all belong in your list? What about every single Italian football player? There are likely a few thousand of those.
I prefer to use categories for this purpose. There is a category: Category:Italian people that already fulfills this purpose. Articles should mainly be about subjects with meat. Lists like this are not full of meat, they are mere Velcro, for whatever you want to toss at it. The category of Italian people is far more dimensional, it divides people into time, place, and manner in a much more efficient way. A person can be in many categories, in your list, they are not. There use to be a category of Italian painters, but now it is subdivided into time periods, although one could also search for Italian painters of different styles or different locals. It may be that if the category of 19th-century Italian painters becomes too long, we will break it up into painters active in first half of 19th century, and those in second half. Are you ready to do that with your list when it become hundreds of pages long, and difficult to download, and if so, how will you parse?
This is a dustbin for name-dropping, we should drop it into the dustbin of history. Someone please drive a stake into the heart of this monster. Rococo1700 ( talk) 02:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I vote for deleting this list and all others like it. If you think a discussion should take place, then leave the deletion tag at the heading, and let the debate begin. You are the one standing in the way, since you took off the deletion tag. And if it fails let it restart again. Again, I am not a fan of huge articles, period.
You say: "I guess your 3-4 thousand painters can be listed as they meet the criteria, just they aren't as "important" as some of the other people." Tell me again, how do you define important, and then I will use your criteria to determine whether to include it or not. For example, I typically include as criteria for inclusion of painters in Wikipedia, the following: 1) Two independent non-biased annotated sources for their name, existence and activity. or both of the following: A) At least one non-biased annotated source for their name, existence and activity. Note I have worked almost exclusively on non-living painters. Sources have to be either published anthologies, museum or civic documents, monographs held in public libraries, published articles in journals of wide ranging subjects. That is, a cousin's web-page is not enough. B) Independent link to an entry in the Encyclopedia.
So for example, if a city includes biographical information on an artist-X, and there is a biographical sketch on artist-Y in a separate anthology, which just mentions the name of artist-X, and artist Y meets criteria above and has an entry in Wikipedia.
My other requirement is that there should be a limit to the size of the entry. I do not know what it should be, but in my view, encyclopedia articles should not take a reasonable person more than a minute to download with standard internet access. I am certain we might be able to agree on a byte size, or page size, or character size. The problem with this list is that the criteria are just "being here", where here is Wikipedia, but you only want the important Wikipedia articles without giving criteria on how to decide. Let say you were able to come up with criteria for "Italians", then my point is that you would exceed size limit.
Therefore, I believe the entire article, and all such articles in Wikipedia should be deleted, and their function be relegated to categories. I would be willing to have an article that is sort of like a disambiguation article, and subclassifies this list into a repository of lists of 19th-century Italian polo players, and Italian 14th-century mercenaries. But really, if so, then why not relegate this to categories.
Being bold means not only putting in brave comments. Vacating chatter can also be bold. Rococo1700 ( talk) 19:34, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Having added some input I thought I would add a little more. MOS:SAL gives us guidelines on this type of list. Lists should have a selection criteria that an editor understands - this list's criteria is "everybody Italian". Lists should have a lead def that the reader would understand - this list's lead def states it includes "everybody Italian". This list's only other selection criteria right now is WP:OR: somebody sees someone is Italian and adds them to this list.
So I see the problem Rococo1700 is talking about (which I asked the editor to clarify). The idea of resorting to WP:Local consensus is actually not recommended per that policy. This problem seems to crop up other places (just saw it at Wikipedia talk:Days of the year). All in all I don't think this can (or should) be solved here. Something like an WP:RFC should probably be opened up on it for Wikipedia wide policy. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 22:25, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
This debate gets me dizzy. I stand by what I said: This list of a nationality is a monstrousity that cannot be killed. I don't care if we do it by RfC or by arguing elsewhere or just blanking the page. Nobody has provided a reasonable explanation of how long this article should be. Delenda est!!! Rococo1700 ( talk) 05:36, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I put a deletion template on the entry. I explained the reasons why it should be deleted. Vaselineeeeeeee deleted that. But from the esoteric discussion above, it seems no one knows what to do. It is a monstrosity that can't be killed. Help me out what template do you want to put up for deletion. Delenda est!!! Rococo1700 ( talk) 02:08, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 02:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
List of Italians → List of people from Italy – Per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, we cannot commingle "people from Italy" and "people with some Italian ancestry"; the latter isn't an encyclopedic classification anyway. Talk page shows a lot of confusion and dispute about this, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for WP:CONSISTENCY with almost all of the rest of our "people from X" articles and categories. The remaining "List of Labels" and "List of Label people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Since this list only refers to people FROM Italy, would it be okay to delete the description that states "This is a list of Italians, who are identified with the Italian nation through residential, legal, historical, or cultural means, grouped by their area of notability. If we go by this definition, then this would mean people such as Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, and possibly even Napoleon Bonaparte could be eligible for being placed onto this list. I used them as examples because Scorsese and De Niro are Italian citizens while Napoleon has cultural ties with Italy and has origins from Italy. Since most people on Wikipedia prefer to make a distinction between so-called Italians and those of Italian origin (even though both are probably by definition are of the same ethnicity), then I believe the definition of who can be on the list is useless and should be removed so that the title can speak for itself. -- Scarslayer01 ( talk) 23:59, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
For another question, what does the description mean when it refers to one having a "historical" connection with Italy? -- Scarslayer01 ( talk) 01:58, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
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Which Italian Antonio da Sangallo are we interested in? Antonio da Sangallo the Elder or Antonio da Sangallo the Younger? Or both? Also, aren't they better served as architects than as artists? -- Ricky81682 03:47, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
This list seriously needs to be expanded. I was able to add nearly 20 composers alone. That's my part. Your turn. Antonio Juan Santiago Oneto (b. Chiavari, Italy, abril de 1826 - † Puerto Deseado, junio de 1885), Argentine marine of Italian origin, who contributed to the colonization of the actual province of Chubut and founded the patagonian city of Puerto Deseado.
Thanks.
09:32, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I feel this article should include people from the ancient Italian civilizations, currently it only has people who existed in post Roman, Etruscan, Grecian and Latin Italy. This is fairly strange as the article: List of Greeks incorporates ancient, classical figures alongside contemporary figures... Please could everyone start adding and linking Romans, Greeks, Latins, Etruscans etc. that originated or lived in the area of modern Italy to the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guyaubreydevito ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
This is correct. Etruscan civilization and Romans. -- Davide41 ( talk) 17:23, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
This list seriously needs to be shortened. I was able to delete 5 athletes alone. That's my part. Your turn.
Thanks.
-- Tom 21:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In his listing, I don't think there need to be quotes around "Renowned Gymnastics Coach". Folks, he actually was a gymnastics coach, and coaching Shannon Miller gave him some renown. The quotes inject some sarcasm into his listing, as though he shouldn't be there. Mahalo. -- Coryma 23:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is Savonarola called a "Book burning priest, and ruler of Florence." Wouldn't "influential priest" be a little more appropriate? Also Napoleon was born on Corsica, a French island, so he isn't Italian is he? 67.173.240.92 20:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
A french island because France bought it from Genoa. And when Napoleone was born the island still was under the rule of Genoa. And it was (and still is) inhabitated by an Italian population.
Errors, vandalisms ... Work in progress. So much work to be done -- Davide41 ( talk) 18:33, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the list of Italians, not List of people of Italian origin. Should we have Silvester Stallone here? His family is of Italian origin. See Talk:Napoleon I. Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 13:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
01. " Silvester " but Napoleone originates from the Italian language. Original Italian Napoleone Di Buonaparte
Napoleon himself was Corsican, and as such his mother tongue was the Italian dialect spoken in Corsica. As a teenager he was admitted in a French military school, the other pupils laughed at him because of his heavy Italian accent. His mother tongue was not Corsican because his family, formerly known as Buonaparte, were minor Italian nobility coming from Tuscan stock of Lombard origin set in La Spezia.
In short terms. He was born Italian but later on became a French Emperor. Napoleon Bonaparte is technically Italian. -- Davide41 ( talk) 12:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Other Sources:
01. New World Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte".
02. World Book Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte".
" Respect but not my support ". Napoleon Bonaparte is technically Italian. Absolutely -- Davide41 ( talk) 10:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the guy that brought this up, and I think it's infantile to make the analogy with Italian-Americans as what we have here is a very different scenario. Italy was a divided country at this time and so maybe his links to his ethnic, linguistic and ancestral homeland are not as pronounced as they might be, yet the idea that he was a Frenchman over an Italian seems farcical, ultimately he was a transient european of italian descent, which makes him more italian than anything else. As for the idea that the country you live in is the country of your nationality - that's absolute baloney - Try telling Andy Murray or Catherine Zeta Jones that they're English... 86.1.109.215 ( talk) 17:54, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Davide41. Napoleon was Italian not French. Napoleon Bonaparte's real name was Napoleone di Buonaparte. The man was clearly Italian and not French. He learned to speak Italian first and then French. It is said that he was even made fun of in Paris because of his name, the darkness of his skin and his short stature. -- 93.147.197.38 ( talk) 21:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The historical journal « Storia In Rete » (whose documentaries are used by broadcasters: RAI and La7) included him in list of the most influential figures in Italian history. Scientific Committee:
"Napoleon was of Italian parentage. He ever remained faithful to the souvenirs of his origin. The Italian language was his mother tongue, and the interests of Italy were peculiarly near to his heart. [...] [...] It was one of the fondest dreams of Napoleon's noble ambition to restore Italian independence. He hoped, by his influence, to have been able to unite all these feeble governments in one great kingdom, containing twenty millions of inhabitants." [...]
Davide41, if you read WP:IG, which is a policy, you will see that this article does not need a gallery. For one, all the pictures you added are already in the relevant articles. Just because another article does not follow the guidelines doesn't give you carte blanche to ruin other articles. Do you want to improve articles or make them substandard? Another reason for not having a gallery is the large size of the article, see Wikipedia:Article size. Do you have a fast connection? Sometimes I don't, and I prefer lists to be lists, not beautified articles. Egg carton ( talk) 11:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
See:
" Cancellation for no reason " -- Davide41 ( talk) 18:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
This is simply a list of the seven king of Rome (244 years under seven kings). I see nothing inappropriate about this. " Simply a list "
" A civilization of ancient Italy in the area corresponding roughly to Lazio " -- Davide41 ( talk) 09:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
See:
Etc. -- Davide41 ( talk) 10:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
( ! ) I'm tired of discussing trivial things. I disagree with you. "Do as you please..." -- Davide41 ( talk) 11:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the New World Encyclopedia references. This states "The content of these articles is based largely on original Wikipedia articles examined and rewritten... Article writers and editors are solely responsible for article content" ( General disclaimer). Thus this work cannot be used as a reference for Wikipedia articles. In this case the references are redundant since each entry already has its wikilink. -- Mirokado ( talk) 22:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
The notability/inventions attributed to these list members have some real factual accuracy problems. Just spot checking brings up "Niccolò Zucchi - constructing the first reflecting telescope (1616)" (he experimented but RS say he never got it to work)...... " Matteo Campani-Alimenis - Inventor of the Magic lantern" (no such credit given at Magic lantern)..... " Giovanni Battista Grassi - discovered that mosquitoes were responsible for transmitting malaria between humans" (not mentioned at Malaria). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 16:28, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia lists are for existing articles (per WP:LIST and WP:WRITEITFIRST) so I have removed these red linked names. This looks like a good set of names for article creation (if the claims are true). Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 16:21, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
I have been reading ancient discussions and several statements regarding Napoleon nationality/ethnicity/citizenship/origin and whatever. I seriously don't see why it's so hard to understand some provable facts.
Napoleon was born in Corsica, an island off of Italy. At the time subject to the King of France but cultural, linguistic and ethnically belonging to the Italian nation. Furthermore, Italy as we know it geographically, does not comprehend only the Italian peninsula, but also its adjacent islands, therefore Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. (see: /info/en/?search=Geography_of_Italy)
Italian is not just a citizenship but also an ethnicity, which predates the founding of the modern country of Italy. Certainly an ethnic group (such as the Kurds in present-day) can exist without having a country to call its own.
Napoleone Buonaparte, his original name, was ethnically Italian even though he had French citizenship. The same can be said to Catarina de' Medici, Giovanni Battista Lulli and many others young Italians emigrated to France.
If the latters are included (rightly so) as Italians, I don't see why Napoleon is not.
Best regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by In Ratio Veritas ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Per this edit, Please write the article first. List are list of articles and members have a notability threshold ---> the member has a Wikipedia article. I fixed another similar edit by creating an article. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 23:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Done. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 21:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Dear Fountains of Bryn Mawr,
I have noticed you have the habit of reverting most of people additions. It would be very kind if you discuss your reasons to do so here in the talk section. Because as long as I know, your thoughts are so important than mine. Thank you. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 13:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking of adding some more categories into this list. How about "Lawyers"? Italy has a vast and long tradition in this field. Home of the Roman law, cradle of the civil law in the midle ages. How about "Stylists" or "Fashion designers"? "Industrial Designers"? There are plenty of prestigious Italians in both areas. Another good choice would be "Entrepreneurs". Regards. In Ratio Veritas ( talk) 14:03, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I think it is better if this article contains some images of "Top ones", such as Fibonacci, Pacioli, Vinci, Giotto, Buffon, Rossi etc. -- 115ash →(☏) 16:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Who decides how gets to be on the list? Is there an authoritative list? If not, delete the article.
If I get the energy I am going to recommend deletion, plain and simple. Rococo1700 ( talk) 04:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I wanted a title to raise the hackles on the alopecic. I do not want to look through the many attempts in the past to kill these monsters. The fact that there are other nonsense lists does not mean there should be one here. Nonsense is nonsense whether it be English, French, American or whatever. This article should be definitely be deleted. Also Vaselineeeeee please state in bulleted form who does and who does not belong, I believe about half the people on this list do not meet criteria, can I delete them? Why not call this the List of Italian people who have a Wikipedia article? Rococo1700 ( talk) 17:28, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
My concern is that the rationale for the existence of this page, "is that the way things are, is the way things are." I object to any list that is too broad. I object to articles that are too long, or meander into infinity. Can you tell me when this article is complete or nearly complete in covering all important angles of the topic, or are we going to keep on adding thousands of Italians. I have created entries for some 3-4 thousand Italian painters, don't they all belong in your list? What about every single Italian football player? There are likely a few thousand of those.
I prefer to use categories for this purpose. There is a category: Category:Italian people that already fulfills this purpose. Articles should mainly be about subjects with meat. Lists like this are not full of meat, they are mere Velcro, for whatever you want to toss at it. The category of Italian people is far more dimensional, it divides people into time, place, and manner in a much more efficient way. A person can be in many categories, in your list, they are not. There use to be a category of Italian painters, but now it is subdivided into time periods, although one could also search for Italian painters of different styles or different locals. It may be that if the category of 19th-century Italian painters becomes too long, we will break it up into painters active in first half of 19th century, and those in second half. Are you ready to do that with your list when it become hundreds of pages long, and difficult to download, and if so, how will you parse?
This is a dustbin for name-dropping, we should drop it into the dustbin of history. Someone please drive a stake into the heart of this monster. Rococo1700 ( talk) 02:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I vote for deleting this list and all others like it. If you think a discussion should take place, then leave the deletion tag at the heading, and let the debate begin. You are the one standing in the way, since you took off the deletion tag. And if it fails let it restart again. Again, I am not a fan of huge articles, period.
You say: "I guess your 3-4 thousand painters can be listed as they meet the criteria, just they aren't as "important" as some of the other people." Tell me again, how do you define important, and then I will use your criteria to determine whether to include it or not. For example, I typically include as criteria for inclusion of painters in Wikipedia, the following: 1) Two independent non-biased annotated sources for their name, existence and activity. or both of the following: A) At least one non-biased annotated source for their name, existence and activity. Note I have worked almost exclusively on non-living painters. Sources have to be either published anthologies, museum or civic documents, monographs held in public libraries, published articles in journals of wide ranging subjects. That is, a cousin's web-page is not enough. B) Independent link to an entry in the Encyclopedia.
So for example, if a city includes biographical information on an artist-X, and there is a biographical sketch on artist-Y in a separate anthology, which just mentions the name of artist-X, and artist Y meets criteria above and has an entry in Wikipedia.
My other requirement is that there should be a limit to the size of the entry. I do not know what it should be, but in my view, encyclopedia articles should not take a reasonable person more than a minute to download with standard internet access. I am certain we might be able to agree on a byte size, or page size, or character size. The problem with this list is that the criteria are just "being here", where here is Wikipedia, but you only want the important Wikipedia articles without giving criteria on how to decide. Let say you were able to come up with criteria for "Italians", then my point is that you would exceed size limit.
Therefore, I believe the entire article, and all such articles in Wikipedia should be deleted, and their function be relegated to categories. I would be willing to have an article that is sort of like a disambiguation article, and subclassifies this list into a repository of lists of 19th-century Italian polo players, and Italian 14th-century mercenaries. But really, if so, then why not relegate this to categories.
Being bold means not only putting in brave comments. Vacating chatter can also be bold. Rococo1700 ( talk) 19:34, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Having added some input I thought I would add a little more. MOS:SAL gives us guidelines on this type of list. Lists should have a selection criteria that an editor understands - this list's criteria is "everybody Italian". Lists should have a lead def that the reader would understand - this list's lead def states it includes "everybody Italian". This list's only other selection criteria right now is WP:OR: somebody sees someone is Italian and adds them to this list.
So I see the problem Rococo1700 is talking about (which I asked the editor to clarify). The idea of resorting to WP:Local consensus is actually not recommended per that policy. This problem seems to crop up other places (just saw it at Wikipedia talk:Days of the year). All in all I don't think this can (or should) be solved here. Something like an WP:RFC should probably be opened up on it for Wikipedia wide policy. Fountains of Bryn Mawr ( talk) 22:25, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
This debate gets me dizzy. I stand by what I said: This list of a nationality is a monstrousity that cannot be killed. I don't care if we do it by RfC or by arguing elsewhere or just blanking the page. Nobody has provided a reasonable explanation of how long this article should be. Delenda est!!! Rococo1700 ( talk) 05:36, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I put a deletion template on the entry. I explained the reasons why it should be deleted. Vaselineeeeeeee deleted that. But from the esoteric discussion above, it seems no one knows what to do. It is a monstrosity that can't be killed. Help me out what template do you want to put up for deletion. Delenda est!!! Rococo1700 ( talk) 02:08, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 02:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
List of Italians → List of people from Italy – Per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:COATRACK, we cannot commingle "people from Italy" and "people with some Italian ancestry"; the latter isn't an encyclopedic classification anyway. Talk page shows a lot of confusion and dispute about this, and it's caused by an impermissibly confused scope and a misleading title. This should move for WP:CONSISTENCY with almost all of the rest of our "people from X" articles and categories. The remaining "List of Labels" and "List of Label people" pages are being taken one RM at a time, since they vary between labels that are ethnic, national/regional, or both, on a case-by-case basis. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
Since this list only refers to people FROM Italy, would it be okay to delete the description that states "This is a list of Italians, who are identified with the Italian nation through residential, legal, historical, or cultural means, grouped by their area of notability. If we go by this definition, then this would mean people such as Martin Scorsese, Robert De Niro, and possibly even Napoleon Bonaparte could be eligible for being placed onto this list. I used them as examples because Scorsese and De Niro are Italian citizens while Napoleon has cultural ties with Italy and has origins from Italy. Since most people on Wikipedia prefer to make a distinction between so-called Italians and those of Italian origin (even though both are probably by definition are of the same ethnicity), then I believe the definition of who can be on the list is useless and should be removed so that the title can speak for itself. -- Scarslayer01 ( talk) 23:59, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
For another question, what does the description mean when it refers to one having a "historical" connection with Italy? -- Scarslayer01 ( talk) 01:58, 1 August 2019 (UTC)