![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Limerence. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Limerence at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on January 10, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||
In particular this section of the definition: "overwhelming, obsessive need to have one's feelings reciprocated." does not seem to represent the limerant state but instead a form of an "Obsessive Love" which is a different category of romantic attachment and has its own variety of manifestations (which are often likely to co-exist with limerence). One may be obsessed with experiencing and expressing the love while in a limerant state, but the intent can be varied and the progression of the relationship towards its natural conclusion may be desired, whether that is reciprocation or not.
I also think it's important to mention the underlying context in which the limerant state arises, a certain mixture of uncertainty and hope. From my understanding the crucial elements of limerance are uncertainty about relationship progression, hope for reciprocation (which may or may not be obsession - but often manifests as intrusive thoughts, fantasy or projections), and actual emotional feelings of love/attachment.
I can't quite believe that someone has expressed the idea of splitting this article into a new article called infatuation. Was that really the idea?
When one splits something, one should get at least two pieces, no? There would then be whatever in this article expresses (probably redundant) ideas on infatuation, and then whatever is "limerence" but not really infatuation.
To me that would be a little like splitting an article intended to discuss the relationship among factors such as ambient temperature, ambient humidity, and physiological homeostatic mechanisms related to body temperature into an article entitled "Feeling hot." P0M ( talk) 00:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
From my understanding, as someone suffering from what I would describe as limerence, infatuation and limerence are two separate things. Infatuation is short-lived attraction to someones, usually physically. Limerence occurs when you grasp more of a persons personality, and perceive connections made with the person, so that a strong feeling of attachment and desire for that person develops, but it is not yet real love because you do not know that person fully inside and out, which is required to love someone. Yonskii ( talk) 02:02, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't feel competent enough to do it myself, but here are some thoughts:
1) Definition in the introduction makes little sense - unless limerence is "a state which SEEMS TO RESULT from a romantic relation", which could be just about anything. An actual definition is in the "characteristics" paragraph and should be used instead.
Done. Kbog ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
2) Someone mentioned in the discussion that the term morphed - it has a different meaning now from what Tennov meant. Make it clear.
3) "Limerent" can be both a noun meaning "object of limerance" ("limerent object") and an adjective meaning both "one experiencing limerance" ("limerenct person") and one being an object of it (see above). It's confusing - make it clear.
4) Second paragraph, second sentence is repetetive, repetetive. And that somebody uses a term "sexual incentive motivation" in their work doesn't mean it has to stand out in the introduction being duly confusing by its pleonastic nature (incentive is almost a synonym of motivation).
5) Shorten the whole article, it's definitly too long for the subject.
Agreed. Kbog ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
6) Clear the jargon - e.g. "particular carving up of the semantic domain of love" (meaning it's a "a subtype/kind of love") and strangely built sentences (semicolons are ok in French academic writting, but confusing to Anglo-Saxon readers). And style that seems to be directly copied from a coursebook (Tennov's, perhaps). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loard ( talk • contribs) 17:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The article states who coined the word and why, but not from what. I thought that it was related to liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold"), a concept first developed by anthropologists in the early 20th century, but it's not.
I'm going to add cross-references ("not to be confused with") at the top of both Limerence & Liminality, but my chronic illness is acting up so I can't take the energy and therefore the time to make this post smaller (apologies to Blaise Pascal & WP:TLDR), much less concisely add the info below to the article. I suggest a brief Etymology section quoting the coiner's purposeful attempt at lack of...uh...etymology. I would still call the section Etymology to be parallel with other articles' and because it answers the question of etymology that readers pose, as seen below.
http://www.gramps.org/limerence/ (about halfway down, apparently from the publisher of her ebook)
The Linguistics of Limerence—Professional Article
Dr. Tennov writes, “It is rare that an artificial term, invented, and chosen deliberately to be without cognates, that originates at a known date and place, expands tractably during a quarter-century, across disciplines and continents, sometimes arriving at meanings different from that intended by its inventor.”
(By the way, if you “Google” on the word “limerence” today, you'll discover over 120,000 references, from rock music groups to neurology articles. People have adopted the word in literature, poetry, as the name of a consulting business, and even pornography.)
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php
What's particularly interesting about limerence is its etymology, or lack thereof, as explained in this quote from Dorothy Tennov, the word's inventor: 1977 Observer 11 Sept. 3/9, I first used the term ‘amorance’ then changed it back to ‘limerence’... It has no roots whatsoever. It looks nice. It works well in French. Take it from me it has no etymology whatsoever.
Thanks in advance, even if all you could do is read all this. :) -- Geekdiva ( talk) 04:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Fixed minor mistakes. Also, the previous poster from 2011 had some good points, too. -- Geekdiva ( talk) 04:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
SPELLING? MORPHING? All words morph, of course, but I was surprised to see this word take on such a technical meaning (not a bad thing) over the years. I distinctly remember attending a conference, about 1981, where I learned this word from a speaker who said something to this effect: "I don't like the word infatuation, so in my book I created the word 'limerance,' as it just has a better ring to it than infatuation." I don't remember the speaker at all, not even her gender, but it must have been Tennov. I remembered the word and have used it many times since. I've always spelled the word "limerance" (looks more lyrical than limerence, as in the word "dance"), and I see that spelling used all over the web. I don't have her book, but I assume it says "limerence," since that is what most are using here. Yet many, even on this page, are spelling it limerance. I like the notion that a "limerent object" is the object of limerance—but I'm not trying to change anything here, just noting the widespread use of both spellings and that we should aim for consistency. ChicagoLarry ( talk) 14:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
***1) Under definition: "Though there are no established preconditions for limerence, there is a high rate of coincidence between limerence, depersonalization/derealization disorders, and dysfunctional attachment environments in childhood."
Can we get a citation here? I've never read any research relating limerence to depersonalization/derealization disorders, but if it exists, I'd sure like to.
***2) Under characteristics: "Affection and fondness exist only as a disposition towards another person, irrespective of whether those feelings are reciprocated, whereas limerence deeply desires return, but IT REMAINS UNALTERED WHETHER IT'S RETURNED OR NOT."
Tennov stated that there were three ways that limerence subsided: 1) consummation (reciprocation), 2) starvation, and 3) transference. If the limerent's feelings are genuinely returned, it can/may fall under 1. Each limerent has a slightly different view of acceptable reciprocation. Some limerents, upon achieving reciprocation/consummation, remain limerent (as documented by Tennov)…while other limerents do not achieve any "real" consummation (e.g., physical, or in the form of an actual relationship) but find their limerence waning after an LO professes similar feelings.
***3) Under sexuality: "In such cases, limerence may form as a defense mechanism against the limerent object, who is not perceived initially as a romantic ideal, but as a physical threat to the limerent. This is particularly consistent among limerents who were formerly victims of sexual abuse or trauma."
Again, is there a citation for this? I'm not sure when this article was so thoroughly changed from its previous incarnation(s), but this newer version makes a lot of statements linking limerence to psychological disorders, trauma, and attachment theory…some of the claims are made with citations, others are not, and I'm curious as to where all of this is coming from.
***4) Under sexuality: "Limerence elevates body temperature and INCREASES RELAXATION, a sensation of viewing the world with rose-tinted glasses, becoming more receptive to sexuality, and daydreaming."
How does limerence increase relaxation? This should be more specifically explained or denoted, given that this article also stated:
"There is apprehension, nervousness, and anxiety due to terrible worry that any action may bring about disaster."
"...[contact] is accompanied with an acute feeling of ecstasy or despair, depending on the turn of events beforehand."
"Considerable self-doubt and uncertainty may be experienced, leading to 'personal incapacitation expressed through an unsettling shyness in the presence of the [L] person'[14] - something which causes pain, but also enhances desire to a certain extent…"''
***5) Under limerent reaction: "The correlation with dissociative disorders is particularly high among "serial" limerents."
Citation, please. I am a serial limerent and have known other serial limerents, but I have never heard this. On the other hand, I *do* know of NON-serial limerents who were affected by dissociative disorders. Honestly, if this research is out there, I'm interested in reading it.
***6) Under impact: "David Brooks defines limerence as a potentially positive, unifying, transformative encounter with the divine, or oneness of mankind.[21]"
I watched this video, and the only mention made about limerence was around the 15min mark--Brooks was not even talking about limerence as explained in this article. I am almost positive he is using some other definition of the word (possibly mistaken), in a totally different context, and I have no idea why this is even cited here.
Osiyeza ( talk) 01:04, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I like David Brooks, but I was surprised that his comment was even mentioned here, as though he were a recognized expert on the psychology of emotions rather than a political/cultural commentator. If Rush Limbaugh shared his thoughts about limerence, would they go before or after David's? 99.191.111.35 ( talk) 22:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
"Attendant to stress on the celestial qualities perceived, and devotion to them, there is abundant doubt of reciprocal amity: rejection."
What? Is there meaning here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:37E7:9D70:9489:5A4F:D09:AC18 ( talk) 17:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose adding a Causes section to the Limerence page. Mgdupont ( talk) 19:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I propose adding an Overcoming Limerence section to the Limerence page. Mgdupont ( talk) 19:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Intro sentence currently includes "compulsive thoughts". I think "obsessive thoughts" is more correct, since compulsions are behaviours whereas obsessions are thoughts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:110:8008:1010:0:0:0:201 ( talk) 10:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
There is some indication that limerence is the product of a person with Asperger's Syndrome fixating on a person, instead of an object. GESICC ( talk) 10:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that it is always the product? Wikkrockiana ( talk) 10:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Limerence/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
My main question is that if this article is put under the greater purview of WikiProject Psycology, will that increase the reader base of this article? Not that such an expansion of the reader base is unwelcome, mind you. Hopefully those interested in psycology will not be so quick to dismiss the major premises of the article, and instead focus upon the smaller nuances and wording. The ratings are justified, by the way, in their own language directly, for example see the page on quality. |
Last edited at 06:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Is limerence pathological? Always pathological? How do we distinguish limerence from exciting love? The article should make this clear. Wikkrockiana ( talk) 10:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
A word being mentioned two times in a book is still a trivial mention which doesn't belong in the article. Even if it were a novel devoted to the concept of limerence, it is still red-linked and relies on a primary source. And besides the point, trivia sections are discouraged in Wikipedia as they often introduce irrelevant material and detract from the flow of the article (see WP:TRIVIA). I don't think that the idea of limerence has received such coverage in popular culture that we need to discuss it in the article. Daß Wölf 17:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
Here are several examples of similar articles with "popular culture" sections:
The article Wikipedia:"In_popular_culture"_content says that such sections "can positively distinguish Wikipedia from more traditional encyclopedias" as long they are "verifiable" and "contain facts of genuine interest to the reader." I am a reader, and the fact that limerence is specifically mentioned in a popular recent novel is of interest to me, so I am trying to make a contribution to this article in an accepted manner so other readers can be aware of this. Rather than allow one user Wölf arbitrate what may be of interest or of use to everyone else, why not include the "in popular culture" section and allow users to edit it for improvements if needed? User:Sqrlntz1999 18:23, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Trivia: What this guideline is not says, "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all." Trivia: "In popular culture" also says, "This material is not categorically trivial. Media coverage of a topic is generally encyclopedic information, helps establish the topic's notability, and helps readers understand the subject's influence on the public (and often vice versa)." The several examples from the other Wikipedia articles above show that the "average reader" probably would be more interested to know how limerence is presented in current fiction than, say, whether the Wikipedia article was nominated for an award. This is "suitable information" because it uses familiar context to help increase awareness and understanding. That's the intention of my contribution, anyway. If it's poorly written or presented, please improve and build upon it, instead of dismissing as trivia and deleting. User:Sqrlntz1999 15:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
New relationship energy.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
06:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Limerence. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
While I defend limerence as being a much more rigorously examined concept than the newer/trendier new relationship energy, Limerence isn't really substantially better than New relationship energy.
As can be seen from browsing the Talk history of both articles, NRE has repeatedly been put forward as all the rainbows-and-unicorns happy-fuzzy feelings of "falling in love" (with no downside except maybe sacrificing your career or skipping out on your spouse and children), while all the bipolar obsessive stalkerish stuff has been damned as "limerence," when actually (leaving off the propaganda of mindless Romance) they are pretty much the same thing.
So it is with reluctance that I might be trimming the most questionable claims made in
Limerence. I could use some assistance, namely the citations made to "Tennov, 1998" when the only Tennov piece clearly cited is the 1999 edition of her book (originally 1979). Similarly, there are citations to "Morris" and "Moore" and "Agmo" and "Leggett & Malm" that do not offer an actual book or paper, so it's well into W.T.F. range here; if I didn't have a bias, I might delete these assertions, and then remove the passages that had claimed them as support.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
19:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Romance is the conspiracy of the hormones, and starts with the delusion that romance is the same as love. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.78.144.132 ( talk) 20:20, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Since "limerence" is basically a synonym for infatuation, it does not merit its own article.
Especially since far more people are familiar with the word "infatuation". 50.205.142.35 ( talk) 14:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
to build on the above, infatuation typically implies some greater level of rationality and control over the desires, while 'limerence' is just a made-up term for lovesickness so the good esteemed late Dr. Tennov, PhD could sell her book 136.35.170.50 ( talk) 17:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
this, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of an infinitive that begs to be split. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:FD24:46CE:76AF:D0B5 ( talk) 11:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to be removing references to Willmott & Bentley's book Love and Limerence: Harness the Limbicbrain. This book was self-published by Lynn Willmott using CreateSpace, and it's also no longer in print so it's not possible for anyone to obtain a copy of it.
A careful reading of policies such as WP:RELY, WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:SELFPUB would lead one to conclude that it's not appropriate as a Wikipedia source, because it's a self-published primary source by an author who is not an established subject-matter expert in the relevant field.
Willmott & Bentley have otherwise one single article published on the topic [1], published in a minor journal with a permissive editorial policy: [2]
The hallmark of The Qualitative Report will not be built upon rejection rates; rather, we want to distinguish ourselves by assisting authors to improve themselves and their texts. We strongly believe all authors and their research have merit. Sometimes, that quality is not readily apparent in the text. The goal of this approach is to help authors to develop their ideas and to work collaboratively with their mentors to help them to bring out the best in their work.
Lynn Willmott's ideas are also not that well supported by the literature on this. She and her graduate student are basically the only academic authors I can find that are advancing an idea that limerence has to do with attachment issues. Everything else I can find on this topic relates it to dopamine and serotonin systems in the brain.
Furthermore, I found that references to this book seem to have been originally added by Lynn Willmott herself. [3] The username "Lathbury1" clearly refers to "Lathbury House", which is Lynn Willmott's self-publishing company.
See e.g. WP:UNDUE. From what I can tell, she is just a fringe author who tried to advertise her self-published material by citing herself as a source. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 16:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I've added reference to these 2 studies in the lead: [4] [5].
Neither of these papers specifically use the word "limerence", but if you read them it's clear what they are talking about. Fisher's fMRI paper repeatedly uses Love and Limerence as a citation, for example. Fisher also does use the word "limerence" to refer to this in another paper which also talks about the fMRI study before the results were published: [6].
It should be obvious why the 2 studies are relevant to the article, but I was careful with the wording to try to avoid synthesis.
Looking at Wikipedia's guidelines though, I think it may not even technically be synthesis to say these 2 studies are about limerence, because Fisher's 2002 paper connects all the ideas together using the word. WP:SYNTH says '"A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article.'
Anyway, it should be fine.
There's actually a pretty large amount of research on this, they just rarely use Tennov's word specifically. Fisher, for example, seems to be a fan of the idea that "limerence is love" which may explain why she refers to Tennov quite a bit but avoids the word except occasionally. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 01:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
In this paper they more clearly relate their brain scan experiments to 'limerence'.
Romantic love is also associated, particularly in early stages, with specific physiological, psychological and behavioral indices that have been described and quantified by psychologists and others [...]. These include emotional responses such as euphoria, intense focused attention on a preferred individual, obsessive thinking about him or her, emotional dependency on and craving for emotional union with this beloved, and increased energy. Tennov (1979) coined the term “limerance” for this special state, and Hatfield et al. (1986) developed a questionnaire scale to measure it.
But again, in Fisher's earlier papers ( 1, 2) and other publications she has related this. In her 1998 paper, she clearly states e.g. that her components of 'attraction' are derived from Tennov's components of limerence. Judging by her citation counts, her team's papers should be considered authoritative. See WP:RELY and my talk discussion below on reliable sources.
ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 18:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Editors editing this page should read the WP:RELY article carefully. Many internet sources mentioning "limerence" are not reliable sources per Wikipedia's standards.
- Reliable scholarship – Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
- Citation counts – One may be able to confirm that discussion of the source has entered mainstream academic discourse by checking what scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes or lists such as DOAJ.
- Isolated studies – Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields.
Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication ( editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Human interest reporting is generally not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy (see junk food news).
- When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. (Please keep in mind that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources, and this is policy.) If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact.
- Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics.
- The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate (i.e. if the rumors themselves are noteworthy, regardless of whether or not they are true).
Albert Wakin's paper, for example, is not a reliable source, because it's not published in an actual peer-reviewed journal. It was just published by a university. Most internet articles about this are not reliable sources, because they're opinion pieces written by non-experts. Many internet articles e.g. claim that Albert Wakin is an expert, but he has little to no publications, so these articles can only be taken as the opinions of those authors, who are not authoritative sources in and of themselves.
The only authoritative sources on this topic are Dorothy Tennov herself, and probably Helen Fisher who is a domain expert that has written about Tennov and limerence.
The claim, for example, that "being in love" is a mental disorder would be an exceptional claim requiring exceptional evidence.
A number of internet articles, for example, claim that "limerence" affects "5%" of the population, but this does not come from any published study, nor are the articles clear about what they mean by "limerence". Several articles attribute this "estimate" to Wakin himself, who, again, can not be said to be an expert per Wikipedia's guidelines. Similarly, it cannot be said that "limerence" is actually being evaluated for inclusion to the DSM, because there is no proposal for that and the APA has not made a statement.
These are just low-quality opinion articles expressing the ill-defined opinions of non-experts. These articles also contain numerous provably false statements. For example, this article lists "Tennov's components" of limerence, but they are different from the ones in Tennov's publications. That article also says "limerence" is different from romantic love, but according to reliable sources they are the same. The article also says "In most relationships where limerence is an issue, one partner is limerent and the other is not, according to Tennov.", but Tennov did not say this. (What Tennov actually said is just that most relationships are limerent-nonlimerent, and she also included unrequited love in this grouping of people.) And so on. Again, these are provably false statements.
With respect to this 5% "estimate", Wakin's statement about his own study (which he has never published) suggest he found 25%. (Also note Helen Fisher's comments in that article.) For what it's worth, there is also a blogger who has done a survey finding more like 50% (although that's not a reliable source for Wikipedia), as well as a 1990 study that found limerence was common ('considerable overlap of distributions'), although they do not list a specific percentage.
So again, please read Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines carefully and do not add unreliable information to the article. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 18:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Another example: this article says "limerence" is related to love addiction, this article says they are different. Both are in HuffPost and both refer to this Albert Wakin guy. None of these articles even agree with each other. Also according to Wakin, he is referring to Tennov's limerence, which, again, is romantic love. From what I can tell he is just a fringe author who thinks being 'madly in love' should be in the DSM. (In his paper, his "symptoms" include e.g. euphoria.)
These people like Fisher, Hatfield, etc. are the real experts being quoted in these articles. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 20:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Limerence. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Limerence at the Reference desk. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on January 10, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||
In particular this section of the definition: "overwhelming, obsessive need to have one's feelings reciprocated." does not seem to represent the limerant state but instead a form of an "Obsessive Love" which is a different category of romantic attachment and has its own variety of manifestations (which are often likely to co-exist with limerence). One may be obsessed with experiencing and expressing the love while in a limerant state, but the intent can be varied and the progression of the relationship towards its natural conclusion may be desired, whether that is reciprocation or not.
I also think it's important to mention the underlying context in which the limerant state arises, a certain mixture of uncertainty and hope. From my understanding the crucial elements of limerance are uncertainty about relationship progression, hope for reciprocation (which may or may not be obsession - but often manifests as intrusive thoughts, fantasy or projections), and actual emotional feelings of love/attachment.
I can't quite believe that someone has expressed the idea of splitting this article into a new article called infatuation. Was that really the idea?
When one splits something, one should get at least two pieces, no? There would then be whatever in this article expresses (probably redundant) ideas on infatuation, and then whatever is "limerence" but not really infatuation.
To me that would be a little like splitting an article intended to discuss the relationship among factors such as ambient temperature, ambient humidity, and physiological homeostatic mechanisms related to body temperature into an article entitled "Feeling hot." P0M ( talk) 00:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
From my understanding, as someone suffering from what I would describe as limerence, infatuation and limerence are two separate things. Infatuation is short-lived attraction to someones, usually physically. Limerence occurs when you grasp more of a persons personality, and perceive connections made with the person, so that a strong feeling of attachment and desire for that person develops, but it is not yet real love because you do not know that person fully inside and out, which is required to love someone. Yonskii ( talk) 02:02, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't feel competent enough to do it myself, but here are some thoughts:
1) Definition in the introduction makes little sense - unless limerence is "a state which SEEMS TO RESULT from a romantic relation", which could be just about anything. An actual definition is in the "characteristics" paragraph and should be used instead.
Done. Kbog ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
2) Someone mentioned in the discussion that the term morphed - it has a different meaning now from what Tennov meant. Make it clear.
3) "Limerent" can be both a noun meaning "object of limerance" ("limerent object") and an adjective meaning both "one experiencing limerance" ("limerenct person") and one being an object of it (see above). It's confusing - make it clear.
4) Second paragraph, second sentence is repetetive, repetetive. And that somebody uses a term "sexual incentive motivation" in their work doesn't mean it has to stand out in the introduction being duly confusing by its pleonastic nature (incentive is almost a synonym of motivation).
5) Shorten the whole article, it's definitly too long for the subject.
Agreed. Kbog ( talk) 23:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
6) Clear the jargon - e.g. "particular carving up of the semantic domain of love" (meaning it's a "a subtype/kind of love") and strangely built sentences (semicolons are ok in French academic writting, but confusing to Anglo-Saxon readers). And style that seems to be directly copied from a coursebook (Tennov's, perhaps). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loard ( talk • contribs) 17:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The article states who coined the word and why, but not from what. I thought that it was related to liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold"), a concept first developed by anthropologists in the early 20th century, but it's not.
I'm going to add cross-references ("not to be confused with") at the top of both Limerence & Liminality, but my chronic illness is acting up so I can't take the energy and therefore the time to make this post smaller (apologies to Blaise Pascal & WP:TLDR), much less concisely add the info below to the article. I suggest a brief Etymology section quoting the coiner's purposeful attempt at lack of...uh...etymology. I would still call the section Etymology to be parallel with other articles' and because it answers the question of etymology that readers pose, as seen below.
http://www.gramps.org/limerence/ (about halfway down, apparently from the publisher of her ebook)
The Linguistics of Limerence—Professional Article
Dr. Tennov writes, “It is rare that an artificial term, invented, and chosen deliberately to be without cognates, that originates at a known date and place, expands tractably during a quarter-century, across disciplines and continents, sometimes arriving at meanings different from that intended by its inventor.”
(By the way, if you “Google” on the word “limerence” today, you'll discover over 120,000 references, from rock music groups to neurology articles. People have adopted the word in literature, poetry, as the name of a consulting business, and even pornography.)
http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php
What's particularly interesting about limerence is its etymology, or lack thereof, as explained in this quote from Dorothy Tennov, the word's inventor: 1977 Observer 11 Sept. 3/9, I first used the term ‘amorance’ then changed it back to ‘limerence’... It has no roots whatsoever. It looks nice. It works well in French. Take it from me it has no etymology whatsoever.
Thanks in advance, even if all you could do is read all this. :) -- Geekdiva ( talk) 04:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Fixed minor mistakes. Also, the previous poster from 2011 had some good points, too. -- Geekdiva ( talk) 04:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
SPELLING? MORPHING? All words morph, of course, but I was surprised to see this word take on such a technical meaning (not a bad thing) over the years. I distinctly remember attending a conference, about 1981, where I learned this word from a speaker who said something to this effect: "I don't like the word infatuation, so in my book I created the word 'limerance,' as it just has a better ring to it than infatuation." I don't remember the speaker at all, not even her gender, but it must have been Tennov. I remembered the word and have used it many times since. I've always spelled the word "limerance" (looks more lyrical than limerence, as in the word "dance"), and I see that spelling used all over the web. I don't have her book, but I assume it says "limerence," since that is what most are using here. Yet many, even on this page, are spelling it limerance. I like the notion that a "limerent object" is the object of limerance—but I'm not trying to change anything here, just noting the widespread use of both spellings and that we should aim for consistency. ChicagoLarry ( talk) 14:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
***1) Under definition: "Though there are no established preconditions for limerence, there is a high rate of coincidence between limerence, depersonalization/derealization disorders, and dysfunctional attachment environments in childhood."
Can we get a citation here? I've never read any research relating limerence to depersonalization/derealization disorders, but if it exists, I'd sure like to.
***2) Under characteristics: "Affection and fondness exist only as a disposition towards another person, irrespective of whether those feelings are reciprocated, whereas limerence deeply desires return, but IT REMAINS UNALTERED WHETHER IT'S RETURNED OR NOT."
Tennov stated that there were three ways that limerence subsided: 1) consummation (reciprocation), 2) starvation, and 3) transference. If the limerent's feelings are genuinely returned, it can/may fall under 1. Each limerent has a slightly different view of acceptable reciprocation. Some limerents, upon achieving reciprocation/consummation, remain limerent (as documented by Tennov)…while other limerents do not achieve any "real" consummation (e.g., physical, or in the form of an actual relationship) but find their limerence waning after an LO professes similar feelings.
***3) Under sexuality: "In such cases, limerence may form as a defense mechanism against the limerent object, who is not perceived initially as a romantic ideal, but as a physical threat to the limerent. This is particularly consistent among limerents who were formerly victims of sexual abuse or trauma."
Again, is there a citation for this? I'm not sure when this article was so thoroughly changed from its previous incarnation(s), but this newer version makes a lot of statements linking limerence to psychological disorders, trauma, and attachment theory…some of the claims are made with citations, others are not, and I'm curious as to where all of this is coming from.
***4) Under sexuality: "Limerence elevates body temperature and INCREASES RELAXATION, a sensation of viewing the world with rose-tinted glasses, becoming more receptive to sexuality, and daydreaming."
How does limerence increase relaxation? This should be more specifically explained or denoted, given that this article also stated:
"There is apprehension, nervousness, and anxiety due to terrible worry that any action may bring about disaster."
"...[contact] is accompanied with an acute feeling of ecstasy or despair, depending on the turn of events beforehand."
"Considerable self-doubt and uncertainty may be experienced, leading to 'personal incapacitation expressed through an unsettling shyness in the presence of the [L] person'[14] - something which causes pain, but also enhances desire to a certain extent…"''
***5) Under limerent reaction: "The correlation with dissociative disorders is particularly high among "serial" limerents."
Citation, please. I am a serial limerent and have known other serial limerents, but I have never heard this. On the other hand, I *do* know of NON-serial limerents who were affected by dissociative disorders. Honestly, if this research is out there, I'm interested in reading it.
***6) Under impact: "David Brooks defines limerence as a potentially positive, unifying, transformative encounter with the divine, or oneness of mankind.[21]"
I watched this video, and the only mention made about limerence was around the 15min mark--Brooks was not even talking about limerence as explained in this article. I am almost positive he is using some other definition of the word (possibly mistaken), in a totally different context, and I have no idea why this is even cited here.
Osiyeza ( talk) 01:04, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
I like David Brooks, but I was surprised that his comment was even mentioned here, as though he were a recognized expert on the psychology of emotions rather than a political/cultural commentator. If Rush Limbaugh shared his thoughts about limerence, would they go before or after David's? 99.191.111.35 ( talk) 22:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
"Attendant to stress on the celestial qualities perceived, and devotion to them, there is abundant doubt of reciprocal amity: rejection."
What? Is there meaning here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:37E7:9D70:9489:5A4F:D09:AC18 ( talk) 17:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose adding a Causes section to the Limerence page. Mgdupont ( talk) 19:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I propose adding an Overcoming Limerence section to the Limerence page. Mgdupont ( talk) 19:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Intro sentence currently includes "compulsive thoughts". I think "obsessive thoughts" is more correct, since compulsions are behaviours whereas obsessions are thoughts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:110:8008:1010:0:0:0:201 ( talk) 10:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
There is some indication that limerence is the product of a person with Asperger's Syndrome fixating on a person, instead of an object. GESICC ( talk) 10:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that it is always the product? Wikkrockiana ( talk) 10:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Limerence/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
My main question is that if this article is put under the greater purview of WikiProject Psycology, will that increase the reader base of this article? Not that such an expansion of the reader base is unwelcome, mind you. Hopefully those interested in psycology will not be so quick to dismiss the major premises of the article, and instead focus upon the smaller nuances and wording. The ratings are justified, by the way, in their own language directly, for example see the page on quality. |
Last edited at 06:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 22:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Is limerence pathological? Always pathological? How do we distinguish limerence from exciting love? The article should make this clear. Wikkrockiana ( talk) 10:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
A word being mentioned two times in a book is still a trivial mention which doesn't belong in the article. Even if it were a novel devoted to the concept of limerence, it is still red-linked and relies on a primary source. And besides the point, trivia sections are discouraged in Wikipedia as they often introduce irrelevant material and detract from the flow of the article (see WP:TRIVIA). I don't think that the idea of limerence has received such coverage in popular culture that we need to discuss it in the article. Daß Wölf 17:34, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
Here are several examples of similar articles with "popular culture" sections:
The article Wikipedia:"In_popular_culture"_content says that such sections "can positively distinguish Wikipedia from more traditional encyclopedias" as long they are "verifiable" and "contain facts of genuine interest to the reader." I am a reader, and the fact that limerence is specifically mentioned in a popular recent novel is of interest to me, so I am trying to make a contribution to this article in an accepted manner so other readers can be aware of this. Rather than allow one user Wölf arbitrate what may be of interest or of use to everyone else, why not include the "in popular culture" section and allow users to edit it for improvements if needed? User:Sqrlntz1999 18:23, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
Trivia: What this guideline is not says, "This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all." Trivia: "In popular culture" also says, "This material is not categorically trivial. Media coverage of a topic is generally encyclopedic information, helps establish the topic's notability, and helps readers understand the subject's influence on the public (and often vice versa)." The several examples from the other Wikipedia articles above show that the "average reader" probably would be more interested to know how limerence is presented in current fiction than, say, whether the Wikipedia article was nominated for an award. This is "suitable information" because it uses familiar context to help increase awareness and understanding. That's the intention of my contribution, anyway. If it's poorly written or presented, please improve and build upon it, instead of dismissing as trivia and deleting. User:Sqrlntz1999 15:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
New relationship energy.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
06:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Limerence. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
While I defend limerence as being a much more rigorously examined concept than the newer/trendier new relationship energy, Limerence isn't really substantially better than New relationship energy.
As can be seen from browsing the Talk history of both articles, NRE has repeatedly been put forward as all the rainbows-and-unicorns happy-fuzzy feelings of "falling in love" (with no downside except maybe sacrificing your career or skipping out on your spouse and children), while all the bipolar obsessive stalkerish stuff has been damned as "limerence," when actually (leaving off the propaganda of mindless Romance) they are pretty much the same thing.
So it is with reluctance that I might be trimming the most questionable claims made in
Limerence. I could use some assistance, namely the citations made to "Tennov, 1998" when the only Tennov piece clearly cited is the 1999 edition of her book (originally 1979). Similarly, there are citations to "Morris" and "Moore" and "Agmo" and "Leggett & Malm" that do not offer an actual book or paper, so it's well into W.T.F. range here; if I didn't have a bias, I might delete these assertions, and then remove the passages that had claimed them as support.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
19:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Romance is the conspiracy of the hormones, and starts with the delusion that romance is the same as love. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.78.144.132 ( talk) 20:20, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Since "limerence" is basically a synonym for infatuation, it does not merit its own article.
Especially since far more people are familiar with the word "infatuation". 50.205.142.35 ( talk) 14:34, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
to build on the above, infatuation typically implies some greater level of rationality and control over the desires, while 'limerence' is just a made-up term for lovesickness so the good esteemed late Dr. Tennov, PhD could sell her book 136.35.170.50 ( talk) 17:29, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
this, ladies and gentlemen, is an example of an infinitive that begs to be split. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:FD24:46CE:76AF:D0B5 ( talk) 11:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to be removing references to Willmott & Bentley's book Love and Limerence: Harness the Limbicbrain. This book was self-published by Lynn Willmott using CreateSpace, and it's also no longer in print so it's not possible for anyone to obtain a copy of it.
A careful reading of policies such as WP:RELY, WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:SELFPUB would lead one to conclude that it's not appropriate as a Wikipedia source, because it's a self-published primary source by an author who is not an established subject-matter expert in the relevant field.
Willmott & Bentley have otherwise one single article published on the topic [1], published in a minor journal with a permissive editorial policy: [2]
The hallmark of The Qualitative Report will not be built upon rejection rates; rather, we want to distinguish ourselves by assisting authors to improve themselves and their texts. We strongly believe all authors and their research have merit. Sometimes, that quality is not readily apparent in the text. The goal of this approach is to help authors to develop their ideas and to work collaboratively with their mentors to help them to bring out the best in their work.
Lynn Willmott's ideas are also not that well supported by the literature on this. She and her graduate student are basically the only academic authors I can find that are advancing an idea that limerence has to do with attachment issues. Everything else I can find on this topic relates it to dopamine and serotonin systems in the brain.
Furthermore, I found that references to this book seem to have been originally added by Lynn Willmott herself. [3] The username "Lathbury1" clearly refers to "Lathbury House", which is Lynn Willmott's self-publishing company.
See e.g. WP:UNDUE. From what I can tell, she is just a fringe author who tried to advertise her self-published material by citing herself as a source. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 16:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I've added reference to these 2 studies in the lead: [4] [5].
Neither of these papers specifically use the word "limerence", but if you read them it's clear what they are talking about. Fisher's fMRI paper repeatedly uses Love and Limerence as a citation, for example. Fisher also does use the word "limerence" to refer to this in another paper which also talks about the fMRI study before the results were published: [6].
It should be obvious why the 2 studies are relevant to the article, but I was careful with the wording to try to avoid synthesis.
Looking at Wikipedia's guidelines though, I think it may not even technically be synthesis to say these 2 studies are about limerence, because Fisher's 2002 paper connects all the ideas together using the word. WP:SYNTH says '"A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article.'
Anyway, it should be fine.
There's actually a pretty large amount of research on this, they just rarely use Tennov's word specifically. Fisher, for example, seems to be a fan of the idea that "limerence is love" which may explain why she refers to Tennov quite a bit but avoids the word except occasionally. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 01:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
In this paper they more clearly relate their brain scan experiments to 'limerence'.
Romantic love is also associated, particularly in early stages, with specific physiological, psychological and behavioral indices that have been described and quantified by psychologists and others [...]. These include emotional responses such as euphoria, intense focused attention on a preferred individual, obsessive thinking about him or her, emotional dependency on and craving for emotional union with this beloved, and increased energy. Tennov (1979) coined the term “limerance” for this special state, and Hatfield et al. (1986) developed a questionnaire scale to measure it.
But again, in Fisher's earlier papers ( 1, 2) and other publications she has related this. In her 1998 paper, she clearly states e.g. that her components of 'attraction' are derived from Tennov's components of limerence. Judging by her citation counts, her team's papers should be considered authoritative. See WP:RELY and my talk discussion below on reliable sources.
ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 18:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Editors editing this page should read the WP:RELY article carefully. Many internet sources mentioning "limerence" are not reliable sources per Wikipedia's standards.
- Reliable scholarship – Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
- Citation counts – One may be able to confirm that discussion of the source has entered mainstream academic discourse by checking what scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes or lists such as DOAJ.
- Isolated studies – Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. If the isolated study is a primary source, it should generally not be used if there are secondary sources that cover the same content. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Avoid undue weight when using single studies in such fields.
Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication ( editorials) or outside authors (invited op-eds and letters to the editor from notable figures) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Human interest reporting is generally not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy (see junk food news).
- When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. (Please keep in mind that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources, and this is policy.) If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact.
- Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics.
- The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate (i.e. if the rumors themselves are noteworthy, regardless of whether or not they are true).
Albert Wakin's paper, for example, is not a reliable source, because it's not published in an actual peer-reviewed journal. It was just published by a university. Most internet articles about this are not reliable sources, because they're opinion pieces written by non-experts. Many internet articles e.g. claim that Albert Wakin is an expert, but he has little to no publications, so these articles can only be taken as the opinions of those authors, who are not authoritative sources in and of themselves.
The only authoritative sources on this topic are Dorothy Tennov herself, and probably Helen Fisher who is a domain expert that has written about Tennov and limerence.
The claim, for example, that "being in love" is a mental disorder would be an exceptional claim requiring exceptional evidence.
A number of internet articles, for example, claim that "limerence" affects "5%" of the population, but this does not come from any published study, nor are the articles clear about what they mean by "limerence". Several articles attribute this "estimate" to Wakin himself, who, again, can not be said to be an expert per Wikipedia's guidelines. Similarly, it cannot be said that "limerence" is actually being evaluated for inclusion to the DSM, because there is no proposal for that and the APA has not made a statement.
These are just low-quality opinion articles expressing the ill-defined opinions of non-experts. These articles also contain numerous provably false statements. For example, this article lists "Tennov's components" of limerence, but they are different from the ones in Tennov's publications. That article also says "limerence" is different from romantic love, but according to reliable sources they are the same. The article also says "In most relationships where limerence is an issue, one partner is limerent and the other is not, according to Tennov.", but Tennov did not say this. (What Tennov actually said is just that most relationships are limerent-nonlimerent, and she also included unrequited love in this grouping of people.) And so on. Again, these are provably false statements.
With respect to this 5% "estimate", Wakin's statement about his own study (which he has never published) suggest he found 25%. (Also note Helen Fisher's comments in that article.) For what it's worth, there is also a blogger who has done a survey finding more like 50% (although that's not a reliable source for Wikipedia), as well as a 1990 study that found limerence was common ('considerable overlap of distributions'), although they do not list a specific percentage.
So again, please read Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines carefully and do not add unreliable information to the article. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 18:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Another example: this article says "limerence" is related to love addiction, this article says they are different. Both are in HuffPost and both refer to this Albert Wakin guy. None of these articles even agree with each other. Also according to Wakin, he is referring to Tennov's limerence, which, again, is romantic love. From what I can tell he is just a fringe author who thinks being 'madly in love' should be in the DSM. (In his paper, his "symptoms" include e.g. euphoria.)
These people like Fisher, Hatfield, etc. are the real experts being quoted in these articles. ShiveryPeaks ( talk) 20:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)