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Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is her previous name not included in the article?
A1: Per
MOS:GENDERID, and past discussions on this article talk page, Lia Thomas was not notable under her prior name, so we do not include her previous name in the article or on this talk page.
Previous discussions on this article talk page include:
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
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Should the Riley Gaines accusations be included in the article?—
Ixtal (
T /
C ) ⁂
Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Note: This RFC concerns the inclusion of the accusations. If and only if there is consensus to include the accusations, the exact wording will be determined during a second RFC. Editors should use this RFC to discuss the strength of sources that mention the accusation as well as policy-based reasons to include or not include said accusations.
especially high standard. It also does not seem workable to try to obscure the WP:BLP issues by describing Gaines' allegations as "concerns", whether attributed to "opponent" or "opponents", and then include headlines in the article reference list that include mention of Thomas' genitalia. Beccaynr ( talk) 18:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication. Beccaynr ( talk) 16:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
IMO, this an RfC for establishing whether or not wikipedia should publish a tabloid-style, libelous, transphobic rumor. So it could go really go either way /s. In seriousness, this is an intentionally inflammatory accusation, reported by organizations with either malice (fox) or incompetence (local news totally unfamiliar with the topic area, repeating the former's reporting). 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 11:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Of course it should be included. It garnered significant media coverage, and is one of many concerns about pre-op trans-athletes (or pre-op trans women in general) sharing these spaces. This hardly rises to the level of libel (which is a pretty hyperbolic claim to leave in print here), and is certainly not transphobic. It is, however, a meaningful part of the record of public discourse around Thomas's participation in women's sport. 162.203.147.11 ( talk) 13:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Please add sources to the list here, using the following format
— Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The whole article misses the mention of original name of sportperson Thomas - (Redacted) which she (Redacted) had used for entire (Redacted) life until 2020 and competed under. Even if Wikipedia manual on Gender Identity explains that: "In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, their birth name or former name (professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under that name." [1] what covers this case as Thomas has the university successes under name (Redacted). [2] Thus, the article is currently unprofessional and denies the purpose of Wikipedia to gather unbiased encyclopedic content to the people. As a Wikipedian with 15 years of experience of writing, I consider that the ideology should never beat the access to the information, otherwise Wikipedia might become a totalitarian tool and not a Free Encyclopedia. What is your opinion on this topic? Currently I do not have 500 edits at enwiki, thus I cannot edit the article, if somebody can, I will be grateful for that. -- Belisarius~skwiki ( talk) 09:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
|
Please add original name for Lia. (Redacted) Thomas Disclaimer777cc ( talk) 18:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Although Lia Thomas is listed in some places as 6'1", Thomas' teammate Scanlan describes Thomas as 6'4", as does the mother of another 6'0" swimmer who completed against Thomas. The Wikipedia info box should at least indicate this uncertainty, e.g. by listing height as somewhere in the range between 6'1" and 6'4"
https://twitter.com/KimJonesICONS/status/1687612891107610624?s=20
Rationaledit (
talk) 04:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Rationaledit ( talk) 01:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
This might be a dumb question but how important is this really? Sure, an athlete’s height is information that we should include if we have Reliable Sources for it, but is it really worth agonising over if we have conflicting or confusing sources? Are articles about swimmers considered seriously deficient if they do not include the subject's height? Is this comparable to, say, an article about a politician which fails to mention their political party? I assume not because, when I click on the articles about other swimmers linked from this article, several of them also do not have height in their infoboxes and nobody seems to be overly concerned about that. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 11:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
User:Beccaynr has reverted my recent edit to the lead. The revert, which resulted in a grammatical error, can be viewed at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lia_Thomas&diff=prev&oldid=1181686174. The issue is whether Thomas's participation on the men's swim team at UPenn belongs in the lead. Five paragraphs in the article body mention Thomas's participation on the men's team, and there is an entire section on Thomas's statistics as a member of the men's team. I suppose it's a judgment call, but I think it belongs in the lead. What do others think? MonMothma ( talk) 17:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Lia Thomas article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Frequently asked questions Q1: Why is her previous name not included in the article?
A1: Per
MOS:GENDERID, and past discussions on this article talk page, Lia Thomas was not notable under her prior name, so we do not include her previous name in the article or on this talk page.
Previous discussions on this article talk page include:
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: |
Index
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the Riley Gaines accusations be included in the article?—
Ixtal (
T /
C ) ⁂
Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Note: This RFC concerns the inclusion of the accusations. If and only if there is consensus to include the accusations, the exact wording will be determined during a second RFC. Editors should use this RFC to discuss the strength of sources that mention the accusation as well as policy-based reasons to include or not include said accusations.
especially high standard. It also does not seem workable to try to obscure the WP:BLP issues by describing Gaines' allegations as "concerns", whether attributed to "opponent" or "opponents", and then include headlines in the article reference list that include mention of Thomas' genitalia. Beccaynr ( talk) 18:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication. Beccaynr ( talk) 16:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
IMO, this an RfC for establishing whether or not wikipedia should publish a tabloid-style, libelous, transphobic rumor. So it could go really go either way /s. In seriousness, this is an intentionally inflammatory accusation, reported by organizations with either malice (fox) or incompetence (local news totally unfamiliar with the topic area, repeating the former's reporting). 🙢 - Sativa Inflorescence - 🙢 11:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Of course it should be included. It garnered significant media coverage, and is one of many concerns about pre-op trans-athletes (or pre-op trans women in general) sharing these spaces. This hardly rises to the level of libel (which is a pretty hyperbolic claim to leave in print here), and is certainly not transphobic. It is, however, a meaningful part of the record of public discourse around Thomas's participation in women's sport. 162.203.147.11 ( talk) 13:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Please add sources to the list here, using the following format
— Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Non nobis solum. 10:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
The whole article misses the mention of original name of sportperson Thomas - (Redacted) which she (Redacted) had used for entire (Redacted) life until 2020 and competed under. Even if Wikipedia manual on Gender Identity explains that: "In the case of a living transgender or non-binary person, their birth name or former name (professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under that name." [1] what covers this case as Thomas has the university successes under name (Redacted). [2] Thus, the article is currently unprofessional and denies the purpose of Wikipedia to gather unbiased encyclopedic content to the people. As a Wikipedian with 15 years of experience of writing, I consider that the ideology should never beat the access to the information, otherwise Wikipedia might become a totalitarian tool and not a Free Encyclopedia. What is your opinion on this topic? Currently I do not have 500 edits at enwiki, thus I cannot edit the article, if somebody can, I will be grateful for that. -- Belisarius~skwiki ( talk) 09:00, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
|
Please add original name for Lia. (Redacted) Thomas Disclaimer777cc ( talk) 18:16, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Although Lia Thomas is listed in some places as 6'1", Thomas' teammate Scanlan describes Thomas as 6'4", as does the mother of another 6'0" swimmer who completed against Thomas. The Wikipedia info box should at least indicate this uncertainty, e.g. by listing height as somewhere in the range between 6'1" and 6'4"
https://twitter.com/KimJonesICONS/status/1687612891107610624?s=20
Rationaledit (
talk) 04:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Rationaledit ( talk) 01:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
This might be a dumb question but how important is this really? Sure, an athlete’s height is information that we should include if we have Reliable Sources for it, but is it really worth agonising over if we have conflicting or confusing sources? Are articles about swimmers considered seriously deficient if they do not include the subject's height? Is this comparable to, say, an article about a politician which fails to mention their political party? I assume not because, when I click on the articles about other swimmers linked from this article, several of them also do not have height in their infoboxes and nobody seems to be overly concerned about that. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 11:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
User:Beccaynr has reverted my recent edit to the lead. The revert, which resulted in a grammatical error, can be viewed at https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lia_Thomas&diff=prev&oldid=1181686174. The issue is whether Thomas's participation on the men's swim team at UPenn belongs in the lead. Five paragraphs in the article body mention Thomas's participation on the men's team, and there is an entire section on Thomas's statistics as a member of the men's team. I suppose it's a judgment call, but I think it belongs in the lead. What do others think? MonMothma ( talk) 17:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)