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Commonly known as "Satan the Devil"? Uhh...please tell me that that is graffiti, and in relation to the pro-senatorial bias, see http://www.roman-emperors.org/domitian.htm
What exactly does "despite some arguments in the scientific community" mean? Did somebody do a test and discover the persecutions did not occur?
Who exactly questions the persecutions and why? Do they have historical credentials, or are they assumed to be experts because of scientific credentials? Need to contextualize. Jdavidb 21:41, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"He was also very fond of gladiator shows and added important innovations like women and dwarf gladiator fights." Uhmmm... important innovations? Mrzaius 20:27, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This discription follows the traditionally pro-Senatorial viewpoint of Domitian's reign and his effectiveness as a ruler. Much research has been done to reform Domitian's image and I will work to bring this here in the near future. draven5 02:50, 1 June 2005
"Sexual Significance Domitian remains significant in the history of sexuality for being the first Roman Emperor to use a spray on condom during one of his many attempts to 'ave a jab at one of dem dere Roman Bitches. {Source: S. Watson}"
wtf? don't make me laugh wikipedia
There is a section described as "Boats and Hoes" I dont think thats meant to be there, but I cant see what it was previously in the history... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.61.40 ( talk) 23:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
This entire section is unsourced with a very strong POV that is pretty much irrelevent to an artical about Domitian. It should be removed or substantually rewritten with some citations about the claims made. RBobicus 21:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
How about from the mouths of the Romans themselves.
Seutonius - Lives of the Twelve Caesars - Domitian 15 "To conclude his last victim was Flavius Clemens, who is thought by some to be a convert to the Christian reilgion. He suddenly killed him."
And he died the same way as Jezebel in the Bible
But nothing so much disquieted Domitian as an answer given by Ascletario, the astrologer, and the accident that happened to him. This Ascletario had been informed against, and did not deny his having predicted that which by his art and learning he foresaw. Domitian asked him what end he thought he should come to himself. And the astrologer answered that his destiny was to be torn to pieces by dogs, Domitian ordered him immediately to be slain, and in order to prove the rashness and uncertainty of his art, caused him to be very carefully buried. But in the execution of this order, it chanced that the funeral pile was blown down by a sudden tempest, and Domitian's body, half burnt, was piecemeal by dogs; which, being observed by Latinus, the comic actor, as he chanced to pass that way, he told it, among the other news of the day, to the emperor at supper.
Seutonius - Lives of the Twelve Caesars - Domitian 15
So what is being said here is that Domitian was at best a "Ruthless Autocrat with a Cult of Personality" but that because there is no evidence except Christian evidence that he persecuted Christians it didn't happen. Hmmm.
For scholars, it is difficult to uncover Domitian's exact policy towards the developing Christian community. Many people believe that he was the Emperor during the time that the Revelation to John was authored (95 or 96). From a traditional Christian perspective, the Revelation, the final canonical book of the New Testament, reveals God's plan for the Apocalypse. From a secular viewpoint, the Revelation could be viewed as a reaction to the anti-Christian policies of Domitian and some earlier emperors. At the time, Christianity was a struggling religion attempting to find a foothold in the classical world. In addition to persecution, Christians were also facing pressure to conform to the Imperial Cult of Domitian. Although it is unclear that Domitian officially enforced adherence to the cult, scholars generally agree that Roman governors forced citizens to participate in order to prove their loyalty and patriotism. Since Christian doctrine specifically forbids the worship of idols, Christians refused to partake in this Imperial tradition. In the face of adversity many 'Christians' may have been doubting their beliefs and may even have been on the verge of abandoning Christianity all together (if they were even Christians to begin with.) In this atmosphere it is conceivable that John of Patmos wrote the Revelation in hopes of inspiring fledgling Christians to persevere. Within the book several symbolic references are made about the Roman Empire and the incumbent Emperor, possibly Domitian. In short, Christians are reminded that their Savior will return to reward those who believe.
I studied Ancient History to degree level at university and this article repeats many of the mistakes often made about Domitian. It's been a while since I studied him and I've no longer access to my 1980s textbooks, though I recall that he was endowed with substantial administrative skills and was a very able emperor. The sources treat him harshly because (like Tiberius, another gifted leader) he gradually fell out with the senatorial class, from whom historians normally came. This article requires substantial revision from someone with a familiarity with the period bigpad 12:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The main Domitian historian whose work survives is Tactitus, whose father in law was one of Domitian's political enemies, this is probably part of why sources are biased Rurp 09:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I really do not have time to start war on article page with morons which think that myths are reality. I have tried that with Caligula. rjecina 03:13 (CET), 4 october 2006
What happened? The article has been deleted. It's vandalism! Should we block 24.2.221.241?-- Stratford15 23:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Although I am no professional historian (and that may invalidate my opinion right there!) it seems this article might also be improved by the addition of a few bits, such as Domitian's personality, his building and rebuilding of the 'limes' anti-siegework (ramparts, ditches, etc.) on and near the Danube, as well as some of the more colourful episodes known about him (his odd sense of humor, his propensity to begin each proclamation with the then-scandalous [if not necessarily so to those who recalled Gaius Caligula!] preamble "Our Lord and God commands..."), et al. Domiitian comes across in both the ancient sources and the modern re-evaluations as a man of parts which do not fit together (wisely another contributor to this talk page has noted how the one dependable historian who covers Domitian had some bad blood against him due to a family connection). So the very real possibility of some kind of madness may be interpreted. Given, I'm not the first to suggest that. But then, Wikipedia (like New York City, and more fortunately) is a work in progress. K. G. Griffiths 18:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Template:Suetonius 12 Caesars has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.
Chapter 8 of Procopius' Anecdota says that there was just one image of Domitian known, a bronze bust. Was there only one known in his time, or is this just Procopius at his usual semi-historical self? Nyttend 16:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I've started work on a complete—and much needed—overhaul of this page. I invite everyone with an interest in the subject matter to help and improve the article over the course of the next few weeks. As my primary source of reference, I will be using Jones' authoritative The Emperor Domitian, supplemented with other papers (Syme, Murison) and, where possible, ancient authors, although I'd like to keep these references to a strict minimum, as I feel I've relied too heavily on those sources in the past. Please post your comments and suggestions here. Regards. -- Steerpike 07:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm just going to continue talking to myself in this section: I've finished all sections leading up to his actual emperorship. Some minor adjustements should still be made, but overall, I'm fairly satisfied with the current version. Then again, maybe I could have extracted a better narrative from my source material. And the page already approaches 40kb in size, despite my efforts to summarize the facts as much as possible. The problem is that, with subject matter such as this, a lot needs to be explained in terms of who/what/where/how to casual readers. I find it hard to trim anything from the current text without sacrificing crucial context information. Comments and suggestions are welcome. -- Steerpike ( talk) 00:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been nearly 6 months since my last major edit. Yesterday I resumed work on this article, which I hope to finish sometime in the near future. I have restructured the headings somewhat, expanded the section on Domitian's personality, added information on Domitian in later arts, and expanded the details on Nerva's succession. The latter is mostly copy-pasted from my own work on the Nerva article however. My next step will be to cover Domitian's administration as emperor, including military campaigns, economic and cultural programme, and political/religious persecutions. My ultimate ambition is to bring the article to FA status. Cheers. -- Steerpike ( talk) 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is now a whitewash. Negative characterizations from primary and secondary sources must be included, since they are the sources, not those 2000 years later with a 'deconstructionist' fetish. The sources may be of varying reliability, that can be stated and referenced. But as it stands, this article is incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.116.114 ( talk) 08:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
You've made the article even better; although I would like to see more liberal use of primary source quotations (or even ancient secondary sources). Even though the article is probably long enough as it is. In my initial comments I did not wish to denigrate your work, which has been undoubtedly industrious. But the current version is now in my view, more balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eusebius12 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I greatly appreciate the amount of information you provided concerning Domitian. Although not privy to the apparently bias opinion of the previous article, I gleaned much information from your work. Certainly, many of the modern historian viewpoints are present in force and much of the historical records are fascinating. I would strongly urge caution, however, in simply dismissing the idea that Domitian was a horrible tyrant. Indeed, your article resembles almost a heroic representation of him by only lightly touching on anything negative. True, evidence apparently points to idea of Domitian as a great builder and effective administrator. However, the fact that the government greatly celebrated his death and ordered the destruction of all of his history greatly mirrors the de-Stalinization of the 20th century in the Soviet Union. Nobody denies that Stalin was one of the greatest builders in Russian history, but at what cost? 29.4 million lives, according to the Russian government. I recommend you address the evidences and writings of those, even if biased, more fully than you have done so in order to create a more representative historical picture of Domitian. Otherwise you've gone from one end of the spectrum of bias to the other. Bristus ( talk) 03:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I'm putting further edits on hold for a while, although I suspect the article will be finished sometime within the next two weeks. Domitian's early life and death I consider to be largely complete by now. Concerning his emperorship, the administration is finished, while his military campaigns and religious policy are both nearing completion. Significant expansions in the near future include:
The article is approaching 80kb in size, although readable prose only constitutes 53kb so far, so it probably won't become too unwieldy. Regards. -- Steerpike ( talk) 23:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In all of the details except for the bit about a servant telling him it was the sixth instead of the fifth hour, where the text here is merely exaggerated. Lycurgus ( talk) 09:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Well done Steerpike - very impressive work. I completed the copyedit (better late than never) and had little to add to the later sections. As always, please review for changes to meaning as a result of disambiguation. Dhatfield ( talk) 16:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Amandajm ( talk) 02:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
In the infobox AD occurs before the date, after the date or not at all. Perhaps some consistency could be applied? I'd do it myself but am unsure which stance the editors of this article have adopted. Sarsaparilla39 ( talk) 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have an AD mentioned in the text near the start of the article - since it is on the Main Page this doesn't look clear to me and you can't see the AD in the box? ( Msrasnw ( talk) 09:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
Rsloch ( talk) 13:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
My worry was the opening on the Main Page (where you cannot see the box) would be better if it had ADs in. So not "Domitian (51–96) was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 14 September 81 until his death." But "Domitian (51AD–96AD) was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 14 September 81AD until his death."
I think the ADs would help the general reader. Only a thought - it is probably just me (
Msrasnw (
talk)
13:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
Was this article featured to draw parallels to Obama?
Is it true that Tacitus is the main primary sources for Domitian? I don't think so. There are 2 extensive primary sources: 1) Suetonius, which has been quoted in this article. 2) Cassius Dio, Roman History, Book LXVII. Josephus made a brief mention of Domitian in his account of the War of the Jews, but we do not have any extensive sources regarding Domitian from Tacitus. Actually, reading Tacitus' Annals we can see that Tacitus encouraged us to read more about Domitian in his other work, Histories. Unfortunately, the section concerning Domitian is no longer extant.
There were of course other accounts of Domitian from Christian primary sources, the Patristic Fathers: Tertullian and Melito. The most famous secondary sources of course was Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History.
Having just recently these primary sources, I have a hard time picturing the Domitian which this article portrays. Except for Josephus, who was taken in by the Flavians, hence his name Flavius Josephus, all the other sources, both Romans and Christians, were very adamant that Domitian was both a immoral person and an inept emperor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.213.148.231 ( talk) 10:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
There has been some confusion in recent days over an image request on this article in "Toledo, Ohio". I tracked down the original request to a request on WikiProject Ohio. The Toledo Museum of Art apparently has a bust of Domitian in excellent condition, and an editor has requested a photograph of that bust if possible. When this request was made, most of the current photographs on the article were already here, so I think the request is still valid. —Tim Pierce ( talk) 03:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure we can say with certainty that Domitian's mother was "long dead" by the time he was 6. My understanding is that all we know is that she likely died before AD 69, as Josephus probably would have mentioned the passing of Domitilla had it happened during the Jewish War. I have not read Waters' interpretation, however, so I'm hesitant to make the change outright.
In the section "Emperor (81)," there is a Wikiink to "benevolent despot," which redirects to Enlightened absolutism. Based upon the content of that page, it appears that term refers only to monarchs influenced by the Enlightenment. Would it be better to either use a different term (perhaps " benevolent dictator") that doesn't carry the association with the Enlightenment? Brad E. Williams ( talk) 12:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
"Dictator" has a precise constitutional meaning in an ancient Roman context so would be inappropriate here. Ledmatt ( talk) 08:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
From the letter at the end of the lex Irnitana we know that Domitian, following in the footsteps of Julius Caesar and Augustus, named a month (October) after himself. "The lex Irnitina, a new copy of Flavian Municipal Law", Julian Gonzales Kleuske ( talk) 15:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm doing a project for a Latin class, and looking for help finding this source for reference 133:
Jones (1992), pp. 182–188
Does anyone know what it refers to? M0N57R0517Y ( talk) 14:24, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
This editor, Undashing, doesn't understand, and doesn't want to understand, that "Rome, Italia" is incorrect and ridiculous. This person can't be bothered to give an explanation for wanting to combine the English name "Rome" with Italian name "Italia", which is just as wrong as saying, "Roma, Italy". Carlstak ( talk) 14:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
" ... he saw himself as the new Augustus, an enlightened despot destined to guide the Roman Empire into a new era of brilliance." - this codswallop in the lede should be ousted and rewritten. There is no surviving record of what Domitian thought of himself - he was, like virtually all Roman emperors, a military dictator whose main concern was staying in power and God help you if you got in the way (unless you won!) While he was a good administrator, such idealistic claims on his self-image are nothing more than some writer's POV - let's tone this one down? Additionally, using Josephus' figures (one million Jews dying in the First Jewish War)[note 52] is extremely reckless - there are better estimates from Reliable Sources, much less inflated - it was bad enough without resorting to wild claims that Josephus, despite his often valuable work, could not possibly have validated. 104.169.37.72 ( talk) 06:24, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
1. The lede refers to "damaged Rome" - this needs clarification and also something in the body of the article (rebuilding crumbling tenements, and those damaged by fires); 2. "the people" loved him? We should surely doubt this as some historian with a pro-Domitian outlook's over-indulgence - for instance, the Egyptians could hardly have loved any emperor - they were one of the most ruthlessly exploited peoples of the Empire - outside of Rome, where bread and games were daily events, we don't have any documentation about how he was viewed by "the people" 3. Still too heavily leaning on Jones, whose admiration of Domitian gleams off the pages from the vast majority of his work, and uses too much of his personal speculation: ex., Domitia being uninvolved - the Praetorians made short work of several of those involved in Domitian's assassination - her posthumous statements of love and loyalty to her husband could just as easily have been done for self-preservation - thanks in advance for addressing these issues. HammerFilmFan 50.111.25.22 ( talk) 17:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Citation 136 seems a bit dubious. It is, as far as I can tell, just some guy's blog. 72.28.206.120 ( talk) 18:56, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
The caption for the image accompanying the section 'Year of the Four Emperors' seems incorrect. The description of the colours relevant to this article instead seem to refer to the German language version of the image, here: { https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Empire_69_de.svg}. The version currently shown in the article, seems to have had its colours changed long ago and is now widely used in many wikipedias. I suggest changing the caption in this article.
Edit: I'm surprised to find that the caption has been incorrect since the map was first added to the article in Dec 2007! It is possible of course that the images have been edited/renamed. 109.68.60.211 ( talk) 19:10, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
The two maps are unsourced and their factual accuracy has been disputed on Commons:
a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 08:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The editor's choice of words leaves far too much out from the full text: " Many scholars, but not all, have accepted the claim that Domitian insisted on being addressed as Dominus et Deus (‘Master and God’).49 A brief review of the evidence is in order. According to Statius (Silvae 1.6.83–4), he rejected the title Dominus, just as Augustus had done (Aug. 53.1). Slaves used it of their masters, and Domitian is called Dominus by them on inscriptions.50 But there is no epigraphical evidence whatsoever of its being used of him in any other sense. On the other hand, Suetonius (Dom. 13.2) reports that Domitian dictated a letter that began ‘Our Master and God orders’ and that, from this, the habit developed of addressing him in this way: Dio (67.4.7) supports the story. Later writers repeat and embellish it: Aurelius Victor (De Caes. 11.2), the Epit. de Caes. 11.6, Eutropius 7.23 and Orosius 7.10 all claim that he ‘ordered’ its use. As well, they couple it with a change in his character,51 unlike Suetonius who refers to the deterioration elsewhere and on two separate occasions (Dom. 3.2, 10.1). In view of Domitian’s concern for theological niceties, the story is all but incredible. The best that an emperor could expect after death was to be declared a divus, never a deus: a living one had to make do with even less. If an emperor such as Domitian could overcome that barrier, why should he hesitate to proclaim it publicly (and epigraphically)? Senatorial abhorrence would not have concerned him. " -- Jones also ignores Caligula's vastly reported views of his own diety. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 00:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Domitian is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 16, 2009. | |||||||||
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![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on September 14, 2013, September 14, 2014, September 14, 2016, September 14, 2018, September 14, 2021, September 14, 2022, and September 14, 2023. |
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Commonly known as "Satan the Devil"? Uhh...please tell me that that is graffiti, and in relation to the pro-senatorial bias, see http://www.roman-emperors.org/domitian.htm
What exactly does "despite some arguments in the scientific community" mean? Did somebody do a test and discover the persecutions did not occur?
Who exactly questions the persecutions and why? Do they have historical credentials, or are they assumed to be experts because of scientific credentials? Need to contextualize. Jdavidb 21:41, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"He was also very fond of gladiator shows and added important innovations like women and dwarf gladiator fights." Uhmmm... important innovations? Mrzaius 20:27, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This discription follows the traditionally pro-Senatorial viewpoint of Domitian's reign and his effectiveness as a ruler. Much research has been done to reform Domitian's image and I will work to bring this here in the near future. draven5 02:50, 1 June 2005
"Sexual Significance Domitian remains significant in the history of sexuality for being the first Roman Emperor to use a spray on condom during one of his many attempts to 'ave a jab at one of dem dere Roman Bitches. {Source: S. Watson}"
wtf? don't make me laugh wikipedia
There is a section described as "Boats and Hoes" I dont think thats meant to be there, but I cant see what it was previously in the history... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.61.40 ( talk) 23:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
This entire section is unsourced with a very strong POV that is pretty much irrelevent to an artical about Domitian. It should be removed or substantually rewritten with some citations about the claims made. RBobicus 21:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
How about from the mouths of the Romans themselves.
Seutonius - Lives of the Twelve Caesars - Domitian 15 "To conclude his last victim was Flavius Clemens, who is thought by some to be a convert to the Christian reilgion. He suddenly killed him."
And he died the same way as Jezebel in the Bible
But nothing so much disquieted Domitian as an answer given by Ascletario, the astrologer, and the accident that happened to him. This Ascletario had been informed against, and did not deny his having predicted that which by his art and learning he foresaw. Domitian asked him what end he thought he should come to himself. And the astrologer answered that his destiny was to be torn to pieces by dogs, Domitian ordered him immediately to be slain, and in order to prove the rashness and uncertainty of his art, caused him to be very carefully buried. But in the execution of this order, it chanced that the funeral pile was blown down by a sudden tempest, and Domitian's body, half burnt, was piecemeal by dogs; which, being observed by Latinus, the comic actor, as he chanced to pass that way, he told it, among the other news of the day, to the emperor at supper.
Seutonius - Lives of the Twelve Caesars - Domitian 15
So what is being said here is that Domitian was at best a "Ruthless Autocrat with a Cult of Personality" but that because there is no evidence except Christian evidence that he persecuted Christians it didn't happen. Hmmm.
For scholars, it is difficult to uncover Domitian's exact policy towards the developing Christian community. Many people believe that he was the Emperor during the time that the Revelation to John was authored (95 or 96). From a traditional Christian perspective, the Revelation, the final canonical book of the New Testament, reveals God's plan for the Apocalypse. From a secular viewpoint, the Revelation could be viewed as a reaction to the anti-Christian policies of Domitian and some earlier emperors. At the time, Christianity was a struggling religion attempting to find a foothold in the classical world. In addition to persecution, Christians were also facing pressure to conform to the Imperial Cult of Domitian. Although it is unclear that Domitian officially enforced adherence to the cult, scholars generally agree that Roman governors forced citizens to participate in order to prove their loyalty and patriotism. Since Christian doctrine specifically forbids the worship of idols, Christians refused to partake in this Imperial tradition. In the face of adversity many 'Christians' may have been doubting their beliefs and may even have been on the verge of abandoning Christianity all together (if they were even Christians to begin with.) In this atmosphere it is conceivable that John of Patmos wrote the Revelation in hopes of inspiring fledgling Christians to persevere. Within the book several symbolic references are made about the Roman Empire and the incumbent Emperor, possibly Domitian. In short, Christians are reminded that their Savior will return to reward those who believe.
I studied Ancient History to degree level at university and this article repeats many of the mistakes often made about Domitian. It's been a while since I studied him and I've no longer access to my 1980s textbooks, though I recall that he was endowed with substantial administrative skills and was a very able emperor. The sources treat him harshly because (like Tiberius, another gifted leader) he gradually fell out with the senatorial class, from whom historians normally came. This article requires substantial revision from someone with a familiarity with the period bigpad 12:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The main Domitian historian whose work survives is Tactitus, whose father in law was one of Domitian's political enemies, this is probably part of why sources are biased Rurp 09:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I really do not have time to start war on article page with morons which think that myths are reality. I have tried that with Caligula. rjecina 03:13 (CET), 4 october 2006
What happened? The article has been deleted. It's vandalism! Should we block 24.2.221.241?-- Stratford15 23:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Although I am no professional historian (and that may invalidate my opinion right there!) it seems this article might also be improved by the addition of a few bits, such as Domitian's personality, his building and rebuilding of the 'limes' anti-siegework (ramparts, ditches, etc.) on and near the Danube, as well as some of the more colourful episodes known about him (his odd sense of humor, his propensity to begin each proclamation with the then-scandalous [if not necessarily so to those who recalled Gaius Caligula!] preamble "Our Lord and God commands..."), et al. Domiitian comes across in both the ancient sources and the modern re-evaluations as a man of parts which do not fit together (wisely another contributor to this talk page has noted how the one dependable historian who covers Domitian had some bad blood against him due to a family connection). So the very real possibility of some kind of madness may be interpreted. Given, I'm not the first to suggest that. But then, Wikipedia (like New York City, and more fortunately) is a work in progress. K. G. Griffiths 18:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Template:Suetonius 12 Caesars has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.
Chapter 8 of Procopius' Anecdota says that there was just one image of Domitian known, a bronze bust. Was there only one known in his time, or is this just Procopius at his usual semi-historical self? Nyttend 16:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I've started work on a complete—and much needed—overhaul of this page. I invite everyone with an interest in the subject matter to help and improve the article over the course of the next few weeks. As my primary source of reference, I will be using Jones' authoritative The Emperor Domitian, supplemented with other papers (Syme, Murison) and, where possible, ancient authors, although I'd like to keep these references to a strict minimum, as I feel I've relied too heavily on those sources in the past. Please post your comments and suggestions here. Regards. -- Steerpike 07:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm just going to continue talking to myself in this section: I've finished all sections leading up to his actual emperorship. Some minor adjustements should still be made, but overall, I'm fairly satisfied with the current version. Then again, maybe I could have extracted a better narrative from my source material. And the page already approaches 40kb in size, despite my efforts to summarize the facts as much as possible. The problem is that, with subject matter such as this, a lot needs to be explained in terms of who/what/where/how to casual readers. I find it hard to trim anything from the current text without sacrificing crucial context information. Comments and suggestions are welcome. -- Steerpike ( talk) 00:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been nearly 6 months since my last major edit. Yesterday I resumed work on this article, which I hope to finish sometime in the near future. I have restructured the headings somewhat, expanded the section on Domitian's personality, added information on Domitian in later arts, and expanded the details on Nerva's succession. The latter is mostly copy-pasted from my own work on the Nerva article however. My next step will be to cover Domitian's administration as emperor, including military campaigns, economic and cultural programme, and political/religious persecutions. My ultimate ambition is to bring the article to FA status. Cheers. -- Steerpike ( talk) 19:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is now a whitewash. Negative characterizations from primary and secondary sources must be included, since they are the sources, not those 2000 years later with a 'deconstructionist' fetish. The sources may be of varying reliability, that can be stated and referenced. But as it stands, this article is incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.116.114 ( talk) 08:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
You've made the article even better; although I would like to see more liberal use of primary source quotations (or even ancient secondary sources). Even though the article is probably long enough as it is. In my initial comments I did not wish to denigrate your work, which has been undoubtedly industrious. But the current version is now in my view, more balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eusebius12 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I greatly appreciate the amount of information you provided concerning Domitian. Although not privy to the apparently bias opinion of the previous article, I gleaned much information from your work. Certainly, many of the modern historian viewpoints are present in force and much of the historical records are fascinating. I would strongly urge caution, however, in simply dismissing the idea that Domitian was a horrible tyrant. Indeed, your article resembles almost a heroic representation of him by only lightly touching on anything negative. True, evidence apparently points to idea of Domitian as a great builder and effective administrator. However, the fact that the government greatly celebrated his death and ordered the destruction of all of his history greatly mirrors the de-Stalinization of the 20th century in the Soviet Union. Nobody denies that Stalin was one of the greatest builders in Russian history, but at what cost? 29.4 million lives, according to the Russian government. I recommend you address the evidences and writings of those, even if biased, more fully than you have done so in order to create a more representative historical picture of Domitian. Otherwise you've gone from one end of the spectrum of bias to the other. Bristus ( talk) 03:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I'm putting further edits on hold for a while, although I suspect the article will be finished sometime within the next two weeks. Domitian's early life and death I consider to be largely complete by now. Concerning his emperorship, the administration is finished, while his military campaigns and religious policy are both nearing completion. Significant expansions in the near future include:
The article is approaching 80kb in size, although readable prose only constitutes 53kb so far, so it probably won't become too unwieldy. Regards. -- Steerpike ( talk) 23:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
In all of the details except for the bit about a servant telling him it was the sixth instead of the fifth hour, where the text here is merely exaggerated. Lycurgus ( talk) 09:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Well done Steerpike - very impressive work. I completed the copyedit (better late than never) and had little to add to the later sections. As always, please review for changes to meaning as a result of disambiguation. Dhatfield ( talk) 16:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Amandajm ( talk) 02:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
In the infobox AD occurs before the date, after the date or not at all. Perhaps some consistency could be applied? I'd do it myself but am unsure which stance the editors of this article have adopted. Sarsaparilla39 ( talk) 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't we have an AD mentioned in the text near the start of the article - since it is on the Main Page this doesn't look clear to me and you can't see the AD in the box? ( Msrasnw ( talk) 09:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
Rsloch ( talk) 13:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
My worry was the opening on the Main Page (where you cannot see the box) would be better if it had ADs in. So not "Domitian (51–96) was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 14 September 81 until his death." But "Domitian (51AD–96AD) was a Roman Emperor who reigned from 14 September 81AD until his death."
I think the ADs would help the general reader. Only a thought - it is probably just me (
Msrasnw (
talk)
13:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
Was this article featured to draw parallels to Obama?
Is it true that Tacitus is the main primary sources for Domitian? I don't think so. There are 2 extensive primary sources: 1) Suetonius, which has been quoted in this article. 2) Cassius Dio, Roman History, Book LXVII. Josephus made a brief mention of Domitian in his account of the War of the Jews, but we do not have any extensive sources regarding Domitian from Tacitus. Actually, reading Tacitus' Annals we can see that Tacitus encouraged us to read more about Domitian in his other work, Histories. Unfortunately, the section concerning Domitian is no longer extant.
There were of course other accounts of Domitian from Christian primary sources, the Patristic Fathers: Tertullian and Melito. The most famous secondary sources of course was Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History.
Having just recently these primary sources, I have a hard time picturing the Domitian which this article portrays. Except for Josephus, who was taken in by the Flavians, hence his name Flavius Josephus, all the other sources, both Romans and Christians, were very adamant that Domitian was both a immoral person and an inept emperor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.213.148.231 ( talk) 10:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
There has been some confusion in recent days over an image request on this article in "Toledo, Ohio". I tracked down the original request to a request on WikiProject Ohio. The Toledo Museum of Art apparently has a bust of Domitian in excellent condition, and an editor has requested a photograph of that bust if possible. When this request was made, most of the current photographs on the article were already here, so I think the request is still valid. —Tim Pierce ( talk) 03:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure we can say with certainty that Domitian's mother was "long dead" by the time he was 6. My understanding is that all we know is that she likely died before AD 69, as Josephus probably would have mentioned the passing of Domitilla had it happened during the Jewish War. I have not read Waters' interpretation, however, so I'm hesitant to make the change outright.
In the section "Emperor (81)," there is a Wikiink to "benevolent despot," which redirects to Enlightened absolutism. Based upon the content of that page, it appears that term refers only to monarchs influenced by the Enlightenment. Would it be better to either use a different term (perhaps " benevolent dictator") that doesn't carry the association with the Enlightenment? Brad E. Williams ( talk) 12:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
"Dictator" has a precise constitutional meaning in an ancient Roman context so would be inappropriate here. Ledmatt ( talk) 08:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
From the letter at the end of the lex Irnitana we know that Domitian, following in the footsteps of Julius Caesar and Augustus, named a month (October) after himself. "The lex Irnitina, a new copy of Flavian Municipal Law", Julian Gonzales Kleuske ( talk) 15:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm doing a project for a Latin class, and looking for help finding this source for reference 133:
Jones (1992), pp. 182–188
Does anyone know what it refers to? M0N57R0517Y ( talk) 14:24, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
This editor, Undashing, doesn't understand, and doesn't want to understand, that "Rome, Italia" is incorrect and ridiculous. This person can't be bothered to give an explanation for wanting to combine the English name "Rome" with Italian name "Italia", which is just as wrong as saying, "Roma, Italy". Carlstak ( talk) 14:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
" ... he saw himself as the new Augustus, an enlightened despot destined to guide the Roman Empire into a new era of brilliance." - this codswallop in the lede should be ousted and rewritten. There is no surviving record of what Domitian thought of himself - he was, like virtually all Roman emperors, a military dictator whose main concern was staying in power and God help you if you got in the way (unless you won!) While he was a good administrator, such idealistic claims on his self-image are nothing more than some writer's POV - let's tone this one down? Additionally, using Josephus' figures (one million Jews dying in the First Jewish War)[note 52] is extremely reckless - there are better estimates from Reliable Sources, much less inflated - it was bad enough without resorting to wild claims that Josephus, despite his often valuable work, could not possibly have validated. 104.169.37.72 ( talk) 06:24, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
1. The lede refers to "damaged Rome" - this needs clarification and also something in the body of the article (rebuilding crumbling tenements, and those damaged by fires); 2. "the people" loved him? We should surely doubt this as some historian with a pro-Domitian outlook's over-indulgence - for instance, the Egyptians could hardly have loved any emperor - they were one of the most ruthlessly exploited peoples of the Empire - outside of Rome, where bread and games were daily events, we don't have any documentation about how he was viewed by "the people" 3. Still too heavily leaning on Jones, whose admiration of Domitian gleams off the pages from the vast majority of his work, and uses too much of his personal speculation: ex., Domitia being uninvolved - the Praetorians made short work of several of those involved in Domitian's assassination - her posthumous statements of love and loyalty to her husband could just as easily have been done for self-preservation - thanks in advance for addressing these issues. HammerFilmFan 50.111.25.22 ( talk) 17:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Citation 136 seems a bit dubious. It is, as far as I can tell, just some guy's blog. 72.28.206.120 ( talk) 18:56, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
The caption for the image accompanying the section 'Year of the Four Emperors' seems incorrect. The description of the colours relevant to this article instead seem to refer to the German language version of the image, here: { https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Empire_69_de.svg}. The version currently shown in the article, seems to have had its colours changed long ago and is now widely used in many wikipedias. I suggest changing the caption in this article.
Edit: I'm surprised to find that the caption has been incorrect since the map was first added to the article in Dec 2007! It is possible of course that the images have been edited/renamed. 109.68.60.211 ( talk) 19:10, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
The two maps are unsourced and their factual accuracy has been disputed on Commons:
a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 08:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The editor's choice of words leaves far too much out from the full text: " Many scholars, but not all, have accepted the claim that Domitian insisted on being addressed as Dominus et Deus (‘Master and God’).49 A brief review of the evidence is in order. According to Statius (Silvae 1.6.83–4), he rejected the title Dominus, just as Augustus had done (Aug. 53.1). Slaves used it of their masters, and Domitian is called Dominus by them on inscriptions.50 But there is no epigraphical evidence whatsoever of its being used of him in any other sense. On the other hand, Suetonius (Dom. 13.2) reports that Domitian dictated a letter that began ‘Our Master and God orders’ and that, from this, the habit developed of addressing him in this way: Dio (67.4.7) supports the story. Later writers repeat and embellish it: Aurelius Victor (De Caes. 11.2), the Epit. de Caes. 11.6, Eutropius 7.23 and Orosius 7.10 all claim that he ‘ordered’ its use. As well, they couple it with a change in his character,51 unlike Suetonius who refers to the deterioration elsewhere and on two separate occasions (Dom. 3.2, 10.1). In view of Domitian’s concern for theological niceties, the story is all but incredible. The best that an emperor could expect after death was to be declared a divus, never a deus: a living one had to make do with even less. If an emperor such as Domitian could overcome that barrier, why should he hesitate to proclaim it publicly (and epigraphically)? Senatorial abhorrence would not have concerned him. " -- Jones also ignores Caligula's vastly reported views of his own diety. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 00:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)