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I'm thinking of removing the link to the personal weblog Being a gay Hindu. I think it is questionable whether it belongs linked in the article as it seems rather personal and somewhat off the topic for the page other then the title of the blog. Please discuss and re-add the link if you disagree.
I would like to suggest adding a link to the following website, which provides a lot of further information regarding homosexuality and Hinduism:
"The Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association" (GALVA-108) http://www.galva108.org
The main article, "Tritiya-Prakriti: People of the Third Sex," is especially informative for those wishing to dive more deeply into this subject.
Hey I'm new to Wikipedia and discussions, I have no intention to edit anything but I had a question about sources missing on a statement. Under the heading 'Hindu texts' 3rd para it states that "Other Indologists assert that homosexuality was not approved for brahmanas or the twice-born but accepted among other castes." I would like a source for this as it would help provide credibility in an article I have been writing. Thank you in advance. ~ellometa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellometa ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
As of July 2011 this article does not show the vast Hindu literature disapproving of homosexuality. It also mistakenly takes the treatment of Gods as tenderness to further a bias. This article is not showing the vast literature in Hinduism that disapproves of Homosexuality. An anonymous editor removed a portion containing such information brushing it aside as contextual. Clear references are given. Please reinsert the following:
Homosexuality is specifically condemned in a number of Hindu texts including the Mahabharatha "Foolish and evil men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men. They are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52). It is also condemned in the Garuda Purana as Vajrakandaka. Finally marriage in Hinduism is said to fulfill three functions: Prajaa, Dharma, and Rati. In marriage, Prajaa is progeny for perpetuation of one's family, Dharma is fulfillment of responsibilities, and Rati is companionship as friends and mutual pleasure as lovers. Therefore it can only be between a man and a woman.
Bias on hot topic issues should not be tolerated on wikipedia. We should present both sides fairly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.79.113 ( talk) 19:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
There is an incredibly long list of what hindu proponents of homosexuality believe, but there is no such list for those who disapprove of homosexuality??
Deepha Mehta's 1996 film, Fire, which featured a lesbian relationship, sparked extremely violent riots in India in protest of homosexuality. Hindu clerics spoke out violently against the film. This incident illustrates that a condemning view of homosexulaity is present- if not prevalent- in modern hinduism, and therefore needs to be explored and examined in this article. The apparent bias currently present in the article does not conform to Wikipedia's N-POV standards.
I have read the whole Mahabharata and it never opposes homosexuality. If we read the quote above it talks of forcing on other men i.e involuntary which is not the loving sensuality that Hinduism encourages.
Hindu Clerics dont represent Hinduism but only the Indian societal norms. Hence few renegade Hindu clerics speaking violently does not mean anything. Attaching a vedio on Homosexuality by arguably the most famous Hindu saint currently living which is quite permissive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EektMq5mVwU
Yes Arjuna is not a Homosexual but of a neuter gender which is synonymous with transgender which is part of LGBT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.178.252.156 ( talk) 04:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
...That's really all I have to say. :) Singlewordedpoem 05:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Ntennis, you are my favourite editor. Wandering Star 00:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking through the history of this article, I can see that it started well, but was derailed by some probably well-meaning anonymous editors. eg. [1], [2], [3], [4]. It appears that no wikipedians were reviewing these edits. I'll keep the page on my watchlist and fact-check any future changes, and I encourage all interested parties to do the same. For now, I've overhauled the article, removing large sections of unsourced speculation and opinions. ntennis 03:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the talk page and discuss your ideas on the talk page before you revamp this article in your own interests. Other wikipedians (namely NTennis) have been editing this article in the interest of preserving Wikipedia's N-POV standards, NOT THEIR OWN VIEWS. Please consider taking that approach. Thank you for your understanding. Singlewordedpoem 06:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I really think it should be mentioned that the Manu smriti is a marginal book at best, most Hindus are not even aware of its contents. The book was espoused by the British as embodying Hinduism, which is as far from the truth as possible. Even if this argument is turned down, the Smriti itself has been cast in several interpretation by various holy men and people like Dayanand Saraswati have tried and portrayed it in good light. I'm not trying to argue that we must look at only the good, but am expounding that the scripture in itself is open to varied interpretations. Mainstream hinduism has always been based on life as described in the vedas and upanishads, the Manusmriti cannot be categorized as either. I think a fact as important as this ought to be mentioned. I'm new to wikipedia and as must be apparent already, am unfamiliar with protocol. Any offence is deeply regretted. Am I required to present anything as proof for the entry? 128.122.180.118 22:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Jayant
A recent anonymous contributor made several additions. I moved this one here for now, as it looks as if it contains interesting information. However, it's unsourced, and I am not sure that the phrase "third-gender men" is a very helpful, as a third gender person is - by definition - not a man. I'm also quite sure that several ancient Hindu texts do not refer to "homosexuals", although they undoubtedly refer to people drawn to particular acts that a modern reader would perceive as homosexual. Can anyone provide sources for these claims?
Several Hindu texts list the various types of third-gender men, including Sabda-Kalpa-Druma, Narada-smriti, Sushruta-samhita, Smriti-ratnavali and Kamatantra. In these lists, up to twenty different types of men who are impotent with women are described and include intersexed hermaphrodites, men who behave like women, homosexuals, castrated men, men that are shy or impotent with women, sterile, unable to have an erection, and so on.
Thanks, ntennis 05:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been watching the article but I urge interested wikipedians to do so. It is consistently changed by an anonymous editor who disagrees with the published material on this subject. I also urge the anonymous editor to register with wikipedia and engage in dialog and collaboration. ntennis 00:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please note that an important Hindu/Indian book of laws written by Kautilya criminalized homosexuality. Refer to Arthashastra (4.13.236). Arthashastra imposes a fine for homosexual act. This certainly means that it was deemed a criminal act by ancient Hindus. This needs to be mentioned in the article.-- 130.101.152.33 ( talk) 18:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Mahabharata also condemned Homosexuality
Refer to the following verse:
13133051a ye tu mUDhA durAcArA viyonau maithune ratAH
13133051c puruSeSu suduSprajJAH klIbatvam upayAnti te
"Those foolish men of evil conduct who engage in all forms of intercourse, taking advantage of improper wombs (viyoni), and forcing themselves upon other men (pumsaka), are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52)
-- 130.101.152.33 ( talk) 18:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
But it does NOT deal exclusively with sexuality, Kama Sutra does. So words of Kama Sutra, which support LGBTQ, should be taken more seriously tha Arthshastra, which deals with LGBTQ as secondary topics and primarily focuses on economy only Abcdfgh2 ( talk) 04:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Homosexuality and gender variance are two different things. The article is completely disjointed and enough material exists on both subjects to justify two articles. The topic of homosexuality is almost completely neglected. Some editors don't seem to be aware that homosexuality is not a gender variance, as in the offensive line "Homosexual and transgender Hindus commonly identify with and worship the various Hindu deities connected with gender diversity"--masculine homosexual men don't. The merged articles are not useful or practical: People interested in homosexuality and Hinduism should have a simple reference and not have to sift through all the extra stuff. Should we merge Car and Airplane into one article?! Wikipedia doesn't have space constraints, the topics only partially overlap, and there is significant information on both. Also note that ALL of the other Wikipedias have titles that translate to "Homosexuality and Hinduism". 75.132.142.26 ( talk) 06:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree.
Frobu (
talk)
10:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
The article is based on primary sources at places. References include literal translations/the texts themselves of the Manu Smriti, the Kamasutra, Narada Smriti, Mahanirvana Tantra, Arthashastra; which do not have commentaries in them. We need to replace them with secondary references. The Hindu texts section is plagued by this problem. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 10:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:LGBT in Islam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 12:59, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
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The section "Difference between Western and Hindu views of male sexuality" has been removed. It was written entirely by a single user [10] whose content I have dealt with several times before and whose purpose appears to have been to propagate personal fringe theories about masculinity. [11] [12] [13] His writing as a rule makes unsupported assertions, uses poor sources, and makes statements that are not in the alleged sources. In this instance, an examination makes clear that once again, the sources do not support the statements made. -Crossroads- ( talk) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti
"It is believed that the original form of Manusmriti was changed as many things written in the manuscript contradict each other."
How can such a contradictory book used as a source?
As for Arthshastra, its wiki article clearly calls it is significant only on economic and military subjects. Should such a book really be used as a source.
Kama Sutra, which deals exclusively with sex, supports LGBTQ and this must be at top of the page. Manusmriti and Arthshastra don't even deal with sexuality, so why take their opinion on it? Abcdfgh2 ( talk) 04:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
This article is about Hiduism. Mentioning Indian courts in this article gives the wrong idea that Hinduism and Indian judiciary are the same. If our intention is to create awareness about current legal status of LGBTQIA+ rights in India, can we not do this with a mention of another Wikipedia article - LGBT rights in India. Abhiithbalan ( talk) 14:23, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Timovinga is removing large sections of texts across numerous articles concerning LGBTQ and India and/or Hinduism citing vague reasons such as "unreliable sources" even when numerous sources have been provided including both primary and secondary sources. I suggest that if he continues to remove text then he needs to be banned from editing topics related to LGBTQ and India. Arind7 ( talk) 08:04, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hinduism and LGBT topics article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm thinking of removing the link to the personal weblog Being a gay Hindu. I think it is questionable whether it belongs linked in the article as it seems rather personal and somewhat off the topic for the page other then the title of the blog. Please discuss and re-add the link if you disagree.
I would like to suggest adding a link to the following website, which provides a lot of further information regarding homosexuality and Hinduism:
"The Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association" (GALVA-108) http://www.galva108.org
The main article, "Tritiya-Prakriti: People of the Third Sex," is especially informative for those wishing to dive more deeply into this subject.
Hey I'm new to Wikipedia and discussions, I have no intention to edit anything but I had a question about sources missing on a statement. Under the heading 'Hindu texts' 3rd para it states that "Other Indologists assert that homosexuality was not approved for brahmanas or the twice-born but accepted among other castes." I would like a source for this as it would help provide credibility in an article I have been writing. Thank you in advance. ~ellometa — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellometa ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
As of July 2011 this article does not show the vast Hindu literature disapproving of homosexuality. It also mistakenly takes the treatment of Gods as tenderness to further a bias. This article is not showing the vast literature in Hinduism that disapproves of Homosexuality. An anonymous editor removed a portion containing such information brushing it aside as contextual. Clear references are given. Please reinsert the following:
Homosexuality is specifically condemned in a number of Hindu texts including the Mahabharatha "Foolish and evil men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men. They are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52). It is also condemned in the Garuda Purana as Vajrakandaka. Finally marriage in Hinduism is said to fulfill three functions: Prajaa, Dharma, and Rati. In marriage, Prajaa is progeny for perpetuation of one's family, Dharma is fulfillment of responsibilities, and Rati is companionship as friends and mutual pleasure as lovers. Therefore it can only be between a man and a woman.
Bias on hot topic issues should not be tolerated on wikipedia. We should present both sides fairly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.79.113 ( talk) 19:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
There is an incredibly long list of what hindu proponents of homosexuality believe, but there is no such list for those who disapprove of homosexuality??
Deepha Mehta's 1996 film, Fire, which featured a lesbian relationship, sparked extremely violent riots in India in protest of homosexuality. Hindu clerics spoke out violently against the film. This incident illustrates that a condemning view of homosexulaity is present- if not prevalent- in modern hinduism, and therefore needs to be explored and examined in this article. The apparent bias currently present in the article does not conform to Wikipedia's N-POV standards.
I have read the whole Mahabharata and it never opposes homosexuality. If we read the quote above it talks of forcing on other men i.e involuntary which is not the loving sensuality that Hinduism encourages.
Hindu Clerics dont represent Hinduism but only the Indian societal norms. Hence few renegade Hindu clerics speaking violently does not mean anything. Attaching a vedio on Homosexuality by arguably the most famous Hindu saint currently living which is quite permissive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EektMq5mVwU
Yes Arjuna is not a Homosexual but of a neuter gender which is synonymous with transgender which is part of LGBT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.178.252.156 ( talk) 04:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
...That's really all I have to say. :) Singlewordedpoem 05:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Ntennis, you are my favourite editor. Wandering Star 00:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking through the history of this article, I can see that it started well, but was derailed by some probably well-meaning anonymous editors. eg. [1], [2], [3], [4]. It appears that no wikipedians were reviewing these edits. I'll keep the page on my watchlist and fact-check any future changes, and I encourage all interested parties to do the same. For now, I've overhauled the article, removing large sections of unsourced speculation and opinions. ntennis 03:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the talk page and discuss your ideas on the talk page before you revamp this article in your own interests. Other wikipedians (namely NTennis) have been editing this article in the interest of preserving Wikipedia's N-POV standards, NOT THEIR OWN VIEWS. Please consider taking that approach. Thank you for your understanding. Singlewordedpoem 06:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I really think it should be mentioned that the Manu smriti is a marginal book at best, most Hindus are not even aware of its contents. The book was espoused by the British as embodying Hinduism, which is as far from the truth as possible. Even if this argument is turned down, the Smriti itself has been cast in several interpretation by various holy men and people like Dayanand Saraswati have tried and portrayed it in good light. I'm not trying to argue that we must look at only the good, but am expounding that the scripture in itself is open to varied interpretations. Mainstream hinduism has always been based on life as described in the vedas and upanishads, the Manusmriti cannot be categorized as either. I think a fact as important as this ought to be mentioned. I'm new to wikipedia and as must be apparent already, am unfamiliar with protocol. Any offence is deeply regretted. Am I required to present anything as proof for the entry? 128.122.180.118 22:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Jayant
A recent anonymous contributor made several additions. I moved this one here for now, as it looks as if it contains interesting information. However, it's unsourced, and I am not sure that the phrase "third-gender men" is a very helpful, as a third gender person is - by definition - not a man. I'm also quite sure that several ancient Hindu texts do not refer to "homosexuals", although they undoubtedly refer to people drawn to particular acts that a modern reader would perceive as homosexual. Can anyone provide sources for these claims?
Several Hindu texts list the various types of third-gender men, including Sabda-Kalpa-Druma, Narada-smriti, Sushruta-samhita, Smriti-ratnavali and Kamatantra. In these lists, up to twenty different types of men who are impotent with women are described and include intersexed hermaphrodites, men who behave like women, homosexuals, castrated men, men that are shy or impotent with women, sterile, unable to have an erection, and so on.
Thanks, ntennis 05:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been watching the article but I urge interested wikipedians to do so. It is consistently changed by an anonymous editor who disagrees with the published material on this subject. I also urge the anonymous editor to register with wikipedia and engage in dialog and collaboration. ntennis 00:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Please note that an important Hindu/Indian book of laws written by Kautilya criminalized homosexuality. Refer to Arthashastra (4.13.236). Arthashastra imposes a fine for homosexual act. This certainly means that it was deemed a criminal act by ancient Hindus. This needs to be mentioned in the article.-- 130.101.152.33 ( talk) 18:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Mahabharata also condemned Homosexuality
Refer to the following verse:
13133051a ye tu mUDhA durAcArA viyonau maithune ratAH
13133051c puruSeSu suduSprajJAH klIbatvam upayAnti te
"Those foolish men of evil conduct who engage in all forms of intercourse, taking advantage of improper wombs (viyoni), and forcing themselves upon other men (pumsaka), are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52)
-- 130.101.152.33 ( talk) 18:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
But it does NOT deal exclusively with sexuality, Kama Sutra does. So words of Kama Sutra, which support LGBTQ, should be taken more seriously tha Arthshastra, which deals with LGBTQ as secondary topics and primarily focuses on economy only Abcdfgh2 ( talk) 04:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Homosexuality and gender variance are two different things. The article is completely disjointed and enough material exists on both subjects to justify two articles. The topic of homosexuality is almost completely neglected. Some editors don't seem to be aware that homosexuality is not a gender variance, as in the offensive line "Homosexual and transgender Hindus commonly identify with and worship the various Hindu deities connected with gender diversity"--masculine homosexual men don't. The merged articles are not useful or practical: People interested in homosexuality and Hinduism should have a simple reference and not have to sift through all the extra stuff. Should we merge Car and Airplane into one article?! Wikipedia doesn't have space constraints, the topics only partially overlap, and there is significant information on both. Also note that ALL of the other Wikipedias have titles that translate to "Homosexuality and Hinduism". 75.132.142.26 ( talk) 06:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree.
Frobu (
talk)
10:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
The article is based on primary sources at places. References include literal translations/the texts themselves of the Manu Smriti, the Kamasutra, Narada Smriti, Mahanirvana Tantra, Arthashastra; which do not have commentaries in them. We need to replace them with secondary references. The Hindu texts section is plagued by this problem. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 10:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:LGBT in Islam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 12:59, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:49, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
The section "Difference between Western and Hindu views of male sexuality" has been removed. It was written entirely by a single user [10] whose content I have dealt with several times before and whose purpose appears to have been to propagate personal fringe theories about masculinity. [11] [12] [13] His writing as a rule makes unsupported assertions, uses poor sources, and makes statements that are not in the alleged sources. In this instance, an examination makes clear that once again, the sources do not support the statements made. -Crossroads- ( talk) 20:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti
"It is believed that the original form of Manusmriti was changed as many things written in the manuscript contradict each other."
How can such a contradictory book used as a source?
As for Arthshastra, its wiki article clearly calls it is significant only on economic and military subjects. Should such a book really be used as a source.
Kama Sutra, which deals exclusively with sex, supports LGBTQ and this must be at top of the page. Manusmriti and Arthshastra don't even deal with sexuality, so why take their opinion on it? Abcdfgh2 ( talk) 04:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
This article is about Hiduism. Mentioning Indian courts in this article gives the wrong idea that Hinduism and Indian judiciary are the same. If our intention is to create awareness about current legal status of LGBTQIA+ rights in India, can we not do this with a mention of another Wikipedia article - LGBT rights in India. Abhiithbalan ( talk) 14:23, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Timovinga is removing large sections of texts across numerous articles concerning LGBTQ and India and/or Hinduism citing vague reasons such as "unreliable sources" even when numerous sources have been provided including both primary and secondary sources. I suggest that if he continues to remove text then he needs to be banned from editing topics related to LGBTQ and India. Arind7 ( talk) 08:04, 19 January 2024 (UTC)