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Armenians are also liar and fascists like Turks. Kingdom of Sophene is Zaza. It was a Zazaan Kingdom.Armenians steal our history. They are thieves! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.2.128.104 ( talk) 02:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
I have never seen anything saying that the kingdom's inhabitants before it was conquered by Armenia were Armenians. The only thing I have seen is some Georgian scholar claiming they were a Nakh people (like their contemporary Ers, etc... related somewhat to Urartians and Hurrians...). But as far as I know nobody really knows for sure because the Supani are mysterious and little is known of them or their language... if there is discussion on this by scholars, please enlighten me of it...-- Yalens ( talk) 22:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
So, according to the various sources on the Nakh Peoples page,
According to Georgian scholars I.A. Djavashvili and Giorgi Melikishvili Urartuan state of Supani was occupied by ancient Vainakh tribe Tzov, state of which is called Tsobena in ancient Georgian historiography. [1] [2] [3] Sophene was part of the kingdom of Urartu in the 8th-7th centuries BC. After unifying the region with his kingdom in the early 8th century BC, king Argishtis I of Urartu resettled many of its inhabitants to his newly built city of Erebuni.
...so its possible it was both I guess. Before it was conquered by Urartu it was Nakh... or was Tsov as opposed to Urartian , if you are one of the people who consider Urartian Nakh, because of similarities (Urartian house - biani (-> Armenian city Van?); Ersh- buni, Chechen- bun; etc.). Then the Tsov were moved to what is now the Republic of Armenia ("Around Eribuni"; where other notable Nakh peoples were noted later to live, like the Ers and the Dzurdzuks to their south before they migrated north), so the region was left less populated when the Armenians took over Urartu (or otherwise overthrew their foreign lords as Armenians claim?) and was one of the first places to complete Armenianization. What do you people think? -- Yalens ( talk) 22:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
References
Okay, first of all, I have a real problem with Aram-van deleting sources that refute his/her views [ [1]]. Second of all, that Sophene was even Armenian AT ALL originally is disputable. At the very least there should be some discussion about this before he goes on a deleting spree, as I am the only person who has ever used this talk page. I'm pretty sure we could come to an understanding...-- Yalens ( talk) 15:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
If Ararat and Urartu are to be considered identical, that there was a state (not just a mountain) named Ararat and that it was synonymous with Urartu, we must have citation of this.-- Yalens ( talk) 15:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I have read the book in which HistoryofIran is editing. It is a great source of knowledge in regards to the Kingdom of Sophene. While I appreciate his/her input, it seems that he/she is omitting Armenian/Roman/Greek influence from his/her editing. When I look up each page that is referenced, only information about Iranian influence is being included. Clearly the kingdom has a wide range of cultural influences. It does the reader a diservice to have someone who has a cultural bias in editing.
Example 1: Page 111 by Michał Marciak reads "The inquiry into Sophene's cultural landscape reveals a number of characteristics which can be labeled as different cultural elements; local Anotolian, Iranian, Armenian, Greek-Hellenistic, Roman, Syrian-Mesopotamian and Christian."
The Wikipedia page only refers to Iranian/Greek influences.
Michal Marciak goes on to state examples of strong Iranian (Which historyofiran mentioned)and cited Armenian influence (which historyofiran ignored). "Furthermore much data suggests the Armenian influence in the region and the preception of Sophene as an integral part of the Armenian world has a had a long record in scholarship. Indeed, to some Greek/Roman geographers Sophene appearted to be a distinctive part of Greater Armenia (e.g.Geog.11.12.304;Georgr.5.13.13;Pinly the Elder HN 6.22)"
In Regards to Religion: HistoryofIran just mentions "Iranian Cults," which simplifies the understanding of religion in the region along with it's basis. By cults, what we should be refering to is paganism with a variety of cross-cultural influences. Page 112 of the book he/she cited states: "In this context, one may perhaps argue that the well-attested presence of Iranian culture should be interpreted as "the Irnaian derivation characteristic for Arsacid Armenian," ie. apparently as coming to the regiion directly from Greater Armenian and only indirectly from Iran. At the same time, one might speculate to the contrary that such a strong presence of Iranian culture influenced the Greek/Romans writing about the region and made them preceive the region of Sophene as Armenian in general terms."
The author goes on to mention cultural influences by region.
HistoryofIran only mentions Iranian cults observed by some elitists. This does not do the reader justice. Wikipedia readers should be prithee to overall unbias information rather than just a random fact.
Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 19:49, 23 April 2020 (UTC)sweetcotton101
Would it be fair to describe the religion mainly practiced in Sophene as Zoroastrianism rather than just Iranian Cults? These cults were sectors that were practicing Zoroastrianism and Marciak mentions these cults under the broad understanding of Zoroastrianism as well. Anahita, the Iranian godess that was revered was a Zorastrianism godess. Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 02:33, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran-You reverted my edit, and I do think it's misleading b/ you are depending on the analysis of one historian, rather than the several historians he's quoting. But alright. I do not want to get into an editing war, and understand that you have clout. The page you quoted is actually a great one page 61--insofar it describes the vast elements culturally in the region. The pages before goes on to talk about Armenian/Syrian cultural elements. It actually presses on how these two cultures had such vast importance in the area due to their cultural/geographic proximity with their neighbors. There are chapters, in regards to this that I would like to bring to light the strong Syrian/Armenian affiliations in the region. Within the same page that it mentions that Iranian/Greek influence is strong, (but doesn't mention that it is 'stronger') and the author goes on to state that there is a long record of scholarship of Sophene as an integral part of the Armenian world. Therefore if we are to mention the "strongest" elements in the lede, I believe it's fair to also mention what has held a long record of scholarship. In the page itself I believe it is deep deeper into the cultural affiliations with Persian, Armenian, Syrian and Roman culture in the area. Tbh I fear making changes even when I have textual backing in fear you will just revert it, as I do not want to get into an editing war with you. I also don't want to ask for permission every time I make a change. For that reason, if you could respond to my question above regarding the Orontids on this page, I would appreciate it, as I do not want you to get tired of reverting as you mentioned before, nor do I want to get disheartened from making my contribution. Cheers! Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 16:42, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I have a few questions in regards to the revisions of this page. While I agree the page needed to be updated, I question why certain resources were completely removed and information that was properly cited was taken out, and replaced with other information. On my first day here, I was rebuked for removing a cited text (albeit it was done in error on my part). I see in the revision history that cited text, reputable sources such as Paul Bedoukian's book on Sophene has been removed and Cyril Toumanoff's Studies in Christian Caucasian History, Georgetown University Press has been removed..these are all great and reputable texts and I question why the information they provided would not be available on this page, and was removed? Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 17:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to first talk here before making changes as I do not want to get into a editing war. I find the lead of this article to be incorrect. In following the lead of HistoryofIran to avoid these wars, I have used Michal Marcak’s book. While Marciak states Iranian/Greek influences were strong in Sophene when summarizing the chapter on Cultural Influences, Marciak doesn’t not state they were the strongest. Marciak actually mentions how there is such a long record of academic scholarship about Armenian and Syrian influence, and consistently mentions various cultures, and consistent in emphasizing the Armenian/Syrian influence given the location of Sophene. We can see this from an historical aspect given that the region's population spoke Armenian, observed Armenian dieties etc, and was widely influenced by Syriac Christianity much later on. For that reason, I believe the lead should reflect this and state that Sophene had a wide array of cultural influences which included Greek, Armenian, Iranian, Syrian, Roman, and Anatolian (even that was mentioned!) influences. Additionally, from a historical standpoint, I don’t think its correct to rely just a single source. I’m not quite sure as to why Sophene deemed just as a political entity when historically it's refered as an Armenian monarchy (makes sense b/ its a kingdom, not a provence or a state etc). Page 61 of the Marciak book is referenced in this article in the lead, but no where does it state this. Am I missing something? For that reason I’m really confused as to why all this is left out, especially since it is important from an historical standpoint. I am happy to cite/reference from several other resources/historians in the above mentioned subject as well. Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 22:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
։@ Sweetcotton101: I think if you have good sources you should definitively add them. I am wary of over-reliance on a single source and Marciak's works are relatively new and his claims, while quite interesting, are still not widely accepted in the scientific community. I'm also interested in Armenian and Middle Eastern histories and can read English, Armenian, Russian, and a bit of German, so I would be happy on collaborating on some of this articles.-- Aram-van ( talk) 12:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
։։Looking forward to it. Cheers! Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 00:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Kingdom of Sophene regarded as part of Greater Armenia in most of the reliable sources, Kingdom of Sophene was included under the title of Armenia on Encyclopædia Iranica, and Encyclopædia Britannica states that it's part of Armenia's history.
Template was removed without consensus on the article's talk page.
@ Sweetcotton101: No, it's not. Kingdom of Sophene is not part of history of Iran or Greece, and do I have to mention that Turkey and Syria are relatively modern states, Kingdom of Sophene was province of historical Armenia, History of Armenia Template should be shown on this page.
TOUMANOFF, CYRIL (1959).
INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIAN CAUCASIAN HISTORY The Formative Centuries (IVth-VIIIth). Fordham University. p. 29. Having overthrown Orontes, Artaxias possessed himself of most of Greater Armenia, but not of the entire kingdom, because a scion of the old dynasty, named Zariadris, established himself in the south western Armenian province of Sophene (ancient Ishuwa). That land, situated between the Tigris and the Euphrates, south of the Arsanias and extending southwards beyond the Anti-Taurus, and so beyond the south-western bastion of the Armenian Plateau, had been the Hittite frontier of the Vannic Monarchy and now was the most Hellenized of the Armenian provinces.
Խալդի (
talk) 11:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Page views of this article over the last 90 days:
|
Armenians are also liar and fascists like Turks. Kingdom of Sophene is Zaza. It was a Zazaan Kingdom.Armenians steal our history. They are thieves! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.2.128.104 ( talk) 02:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
I have never seen anything saying that the kingdom's inhabitants before it was conquered by Armenia were Armenians. The only thing I have seen is some Georgian scholar claiming they were a Nakh people (like their contemporary Ers, etc... related somewhat to Urartians and Hurrians...). But as far as I know nobody really knows for sure because the Supani are mysterious and little is known of them or their language... if there is discussion on this by scholars, please enlighten me of it...-- Yalens ( talk) 22:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
So, according to the various sources on the Nakh Peoples page,
According to Georgian scholars I.A. Djavashvili and Giorgi Melikishvili Urartuan state of Supani was occupied by ancient Vainakh tribe Tzov, state of which is called Tsobena in ancient Georgian historiography. [1] [2] [3] Sophene was part of the kingdom of Urartu in the 8th-7th centuries BC. After unifying the region with his kingdom in the early 8th century BC, king Argishtis I of Urartu resettled many of its inhabitants to his newly built city of Erebuni.
...so its possible it was both I guess. Before it was conquered by Urartu it was Nakh... or was Tsov as opposed to Urartian , if you are one of the people who consider Urartian Nakh, because of similarities (Urartian house - biani (-> Armenian city Van?); Ersh- buni, Chechen- bun; etc.). Then the Tsov were moved to what is now the Republic of Armenia ("Around Eribuni"; where other notable Nakh peoples were noted later to live, like the Ers and the Dzurdzuks to their south before they migrated north), so the region was left less populated when the Armenians took over Urartu (or otherwise overthrew their foreign lords as Armenians claim?) and was one of the first places to complete Armenianization. What do you people think? -- Yalens ( talk) 22:34, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
References
Okay, first of all, I have a real problem with Aram-van deleting sources that refute his/her views [ [1]]. Second of all, that Sophene was even Armenian AT ALL originally is disputable. At the very least there should be some discussion about this before he goes on a deleting spree, as I am the only person who has ever used this talk page. I'm pretty sure we could come to an understanding...-- Yalens ( talk) 15:13, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
If Ararat and Urartu are to be considered identical, that there was a state (not just a mountain) named Ararat and that it was synonymous with Urartu, we must have citation of this.-- Yalens ( talk) 15:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
I have read the book in which HistoryofIran is editing. It is a great source of knowledge in regards to the Kingdom of Sophene. While I appreciate his/her input, it seems that he/she is omitting Armenian/Roman/Greek influence from his/her editing. When I look up each page that is referenced, only information about Iranian influence is being included. Clearly the kingdom has a wide range of cultural influences. It does the reader a diservice to have someone who has a cultural bias in editing.
Example 1: Page 111 by Michał Marciak reads "The inquiry into Sophene's cultural landscape reveals a number of characteristics which can be labeled as different cultural elements; local Anotolian, Iranian, Armenian, Greek-Hellenistic, Roman, Syrian-Mesopotamian and Christian."
The Wikipedia page only refers to Iranian/Greek influences.
Michal Marciak goes on to state examples of strong Iranian (Which historyofiran mentioned)and cited Armenian influence (which historyofiran ignored). "Furthermore much data suggests the Armenian influence in the region and the preception of Sophene as an integral part of the Armenian world has a had a long record in scholarship. Indeed, to some Greek/Roman geographers Sophene appearted to be a distinctive part of Greater Armenia (e.g.Geog.11.12.304;Georgr.5.13.13;Pinly the Elder HN 6.22)"
In Regards to Religion: HistoryofIran just mentions "Iranian Cults," which simplifies the understanding of religion in the region along with it's basis. By cults, what we should be refering to is paganism with a variety of cross-cultural influences. Page 112 of the book he/she cited states: "In this context, one may perhaps argue that the well-attested presence of Iranian culture should be interpreted as "the Irnaian derivation characteristic for Arsacid Armenian," ie. apparently as coming to the regiion directly from Greater Armenian and only indirectly from Iran. At the same time, one might speculate to the contrary that such a strong presence of Iranian culture influenced the Greek/Romans writing about the region and made them preceive the region of Sophene as Armenian in general terms."
The author goes on to mention cultural influences by region.
HistoryofIran only mentions Iranian cults observed by some elitists. This does not do the reader justice. Wikipedia readers should be prithee to overall unbias information rather than just a random fact.
Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 19:49, 23 April 2020 (UTC)sweetcotton101
Would it be fair to describe the religion mainly practiced in Sophene as Zoroastrianism rather than just Iranian Cults? These cults were sectors that were practicing Zoroastrianism and Marciak mentions these cults under the broad understanding of Zoroastrianism as well. Anahita, the Iranian godess that was revered was a Zorastrianism godess. Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 02:33, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran-You reverted my edit, and I do think it's misleading b/ you are depending on the analysis of one historian, rather than the several historians he's quoting. But alright. I do not want to get into an editing war, and understand that you have clout. The page you quoted is actually a great one page 61--insofar it describes the vast elements culturally in the region. The pages before goes on to talk about Armenian/Syrian cultural elements. It actually presses on how these two cultures had such vast importance in the area due to their cultural/geographic proximity with their neighbors. There are chapters, in regards to this that I would like to bring to light the strong Syrian/Armenian affiliations in the region. Within the same page that it mentions that Iranian/Greek influence is strong, (but doesn't mention that it is 'stronger') and the author goes on to state that there is a long record of scholarship of Sophene as an integral part of the Armenian world. Therefore if we are to mention the "strongest" elements in the lede, I believe it's fair to also mention what has held a long record of scholarship. In the page itself I believe it is deep deeper into the cultural affiliations with Persian, Armenian, Syrian and Roman culture in the area. Tbh I fear making changes even when I have textual backing in fear you will just revert it, as I do not want to get into an editing war with you. I also don't want to ask for permission every time I make a change. For that reason, if you could respond to my question above regarding the Orontids on this page, I would appreciate it, as I do not want you to get tired of reverting as you mentioned before, nor do I want to get disheartened from making my contribution. Cheers! Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 16:42, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I have a few questions in regards to the revisions of this page. While I agree the page needed to be updated, I question why certain resources were completely removed and information that was properly cited was taken out, and replaced with other information. On my first day here, I was rebuked for removing a cited text (albeit it was done in error on my part). I see in the revision history that cited text, reputable sources such as Paul Bedoukian's book on Sophene has been removed and Cyril Toumanoff's Studies in Christian Caucasian History, Georgetown University Press has been removed..these are all great and reputable texts and I question why the information they provided would not be available on this page, and was removed? Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 17:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I wanted to first talk here before making changes as I do not want to get into a editing war. I find the lead of this article to be incorrect. In following the lead of HistoryofIran to avoid these wars, I have used Michal Marcak’s book. While Marciak states Iranian/Greek influences were strong in Sophene when summarizing the chapter on Cultural Influences, Marciak doesn’t not state they were the strongest. Marciak actually mentions how there is such a long record of academic scholarship about Armenian and Syrian influence, and consistently mentions various cultures, and consistent in emphasizing the Armenian/Syrian influence given the location of Sophene. We can see this from an historical aspect given that the region's population spoke Armenian, observed Armenian dieties etc, and was widely influenced by Syriac Christianity much later on. For that reason, I believe the lead should reflect this and state that Sophene had a wide array of cultural influences which included Greek, Armenian, Iranian, Syrian, Roman, and Anatolian (even that was mentioned!) influences. Additionally, from a historical standpoint, I don’t think its correct to rely just a single source. I’m not quite sure as to why Sophene deemed just as a political entity when historically it's refered as an Armenian monarchy (makes sense b/ its a kingdom, not a provence or a state etc). Page 61 of the Marciak book is referenced in this article in the lead, but no where does it state this. Am I missing something? For that reason I’m really confused as to why all this is left out, especially since it is important from an historical standpoint. I am happy to cite/reference from several other resources/historians in the above mentioned subject as well. Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 22:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
։@ Sweetcotton101: I think if you have good sources you should definitively add them. I am wary of over-reliance on a single source and Marciak's works are relatively new and his claims, while quite interesting, are still not widely accepted in the scientific community. I'm also interested in Armenian and Middle Eastern histories and can read English, Armenian, Russian, and a bit of German, so I would be happy on collaborating on some of this articles.-- Aram-van ( talk) 12:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
։։Looking forward to it. Cheers! Sweetcotton101 ( talk) 00:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Kingdom of Sophene regarded as part of Greater Armenia in most of the reliable sources, Kingdom of Sophene was included under the title of Armenia on Encyclopædia Iranica, and Encyclopædia Britannica states that it's part of Armenia's history.
Template was removed without consensus on the article's talk page.
@ Sweetcotton101: No, it's not. Kingdom of Sophene is not part of history of Iran or Greece, and do I have to mention that Turkey and Syria are relatively modern states, Kingdom of Sophene was province of historical Armenia, History of Armenia Template should be shown on this page.
TOUMANOFF, CYRIL (1959).
INTRODUCTION TO CHRISTIAN CAUCASIAN HISTORY The Formative Centuries (IVth-VIIIth). Fordham University. p. 29. Having overthrown Orontes, Artaxias possessed himself of most of Greater Armenia, but not of the entire kingdom, because a scion of the old dynasty, named Zariadris, established himself in the south western Armenian province of Sophene (ancient Ishuwa). That land, situated between the Tigris and the Euphrates, south of the Arsanias and extending southwards beyond the Anti-Taurus, and so beyond the south-western bastion of the Armenian Plateau, had been the Hittite frontier of the Vannic Monarchy and now was the most Hellenized of the Armenian provinces.
Խալդի (
talk) 11:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)