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The following rulers all assumed the title "King/Empereror of Britain/the Britons" (or related):
And yet are not on the list, presumably because - although they ruled over the Britons - they were not Britons themselves (though, in all fairness, Allectus may have been - we simply don't know).
But why, therefore, is Cunobelin on the list? He was a member of the Belgae ethnic group, and as such is just as likely to have been a speaker of a Germanic language as a Celtic language.
The basic question is this - is this list intended to be ethnically exclusive, or will it include all those who held a title equivalent to "King of the Britons"? TharkunColl 08:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Vortimer 21:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Caractacus be on this list? DanTrent ( talk) 18:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
We do not want to lose this article, so I have reverted the redirect. I have also requested that Vortimer rework the links to this article ASAP. Please be patient. Walgamanus 13:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
(Moved from User_talk:Walgamanus). At first, it was indeed the case that I did not realise there was a problem with the linked articles. When I became aware of the large number of linked articles, I put up the front-matter (for want of a better word) to King of the Britons, stating "Links to this article were formerly redirected to List of legendary kings of Britain. If you are looking ...". I had hoped that this would be acceptable, as it only requires the reader to make one click to find the article they were meant to be directed to, and on the way they also find the King of the Britons article, which in some cases may be more appropriate anyway. Vortimer 00:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 12th century onwards the title evolved into that of the Prince of Wales" - I'd dispute that. A king, one of several local kings who probably came from the original Britons went on to proclaim himself Prince of Wales. But I don't think that's an evolution of the title - he was called King of Gwynedd, not King of [the] Briton[s]. Your phrase suggests that a line of title proceeded but this was all really down to local feuding. Pbhj ( talk) 02:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing the "disputed" flag because I don't see any on-going disputes. Some issues were raised a long time ago on this discussion page. I (as principal author of the article) responded to all of them, I think successfully. If someone thinks there is still a dispute, they should open a discussion on this discussion page.
I'm also removing the "copy edit" flag. There is nothing blatantly wrong with the style of the article that I can see. If the person who put up the flag saw something stylistic that needs fixing, they should have fixed it, or at least put some comment about what needed fixing on this discussion page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vortimer ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is copied from the Template "Kings of the Britons" Talk page:
I have very serious misgivings about this template. It mixes legend and history, fact and fiction, in an unacceptable and misleading way. To cite just one example, what on earth is Idris Gawr, the legendary giant of Cader Idris doing on this list alongside medieval Welsh rulers such as Llywelyn the Great? You can not be serious? Enaidmawr ( talk) 22:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
As someone who has just come to this page with little prior knowledge, it seems to me that there may be some value in keeping it, despite the fact that much of what is there now seems to be unacceptable synthesis. However, there needs to be much greater clarity in the introduction as to the sources that have been used for the list and, in particular, to identify those in the list for whom there is no or little historical evidence, and those for which evidence exists. There should also be better links to other articles, such as List of legendary kings of Britain, and the possibility of merging the lists should at least be considered. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
As the user who first put up this page (to contain historical rather than legendary kings) I'm sorry I missed all of this discussion. Let me give some thoughts.
1. The table is not meant to imply a orderly succession of kings. It just presents all the known instances of powerful rulers of the insular Britons to which the title "king of the Britons", or a related title, was given, often retrospectively. All this is stated in the article. Moreover, unlike many wikipedia articles, it gives sources for everything. Sure, the sources could be made more specific, with titles and book and chapter numbers etc, and I'm happy for anyone to start working on that. But the references I have given is far more than many wikipedia articles have, so I don't see why it has been singled out for such harsh treatment.
2. The table refers to "King of the Britons, or a related title." I don't see why Prince of Wales should not be considered a related title. Before Enaidmawr deleted all the 12th and 13th century examples, it was clear to see that there was a gradual evolution of the titles used by the most powerful Welsh ruler from "King of the Britons" in the 11th century to "Prince of Wales" in the 13th. Part of the point of the table was to show the evolution. This point is discussed earlier in this page. I think it is artificial to break pre-Norman and post-Norman Wales apart as if there was no continuity there. So I'd request that you put them back.
3. There is an accusation that there is legendary material there. e.g. "Idris the Giant". Ok, if people think that in this instance the report from the Annals of Ulster should not be linked to any figure in Welsh history in legend, then I'm happy to remove the link. Regarding Goeffrey of Monmouth, I fail to see why he should be brought up at all. The point of the article was to "rescue" the concept of "King of the Britons" from Geoffrey's pseudohistory. This page was not based on the list of the legendary kings of Britain page, it replaced it.
4. Regarding other controversial cases: Urien and Selyf. The former I agree has a fairly weak claim to be included. The latter has a perfectly good claim - the annals of Ulster call him King of the Britons! Enaidmawr says " rex Bretanorum could equally be interpreted as "King of the Welsh" (which Selyf was not, in fact). " I don't understand what point this is supposed to make. How can Enaidmawr say confidently that Selyf was not regarded as King of the Welsh, when we know almost nothing about Brittonic politics at the time? What does Enaidmawr even mean by talking about "the Welsh" at this time? The inhabitants of modern Wales? The Cymru (which included the men of the North)? Or those whom the Saxons called Welsh, which included the Dumnonians?
5. Continuing in the same vein, I don't see that "until quite recently the terms 'Britons' and 'British tongue/language' were regularly used by English writers to refer to the Welsh people and the Welsh language" is a problem for the article. This is exactly why it made sense to continue the list to the paramount Welsh rulers in Norman times. If you think this is something readers need to be told more explicitly, I'm happy for that information to be added.
6. I'm happy for the wording of the article to continue to be improved to avoid misunderstandings. One point I should make is that I envisaged the article as referring to paramount insular Brittonic rulers, not to rulers who ruled solely in Brittany. So in this case it would not be appropriate to list Kings of Brittany. I'm not happy with the introductory paragraphs as they stand now since they refer to both insular and continental Britons and would indeed lead the educated reader to wonder why Kings like Erispoe and Salomon do not appear. (Riothamus is appropriate because there are reasons to think he was a King in Britain before crossing to the continent).
So in summary, I don't think the removal of the Welsh rulers in Norman times was justified, I don't think adding all of those "citations needed" was at all called for, but I'm sure the information in the article can be improved by a constructive approach from all concerned. Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Vortimer ( talk) 14:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
A last point.
7. The page never refers to anyone as "holder" of a title or having "held" the title. It carefully says they either used the title, or were referred to by the title given. If readers do not read what is written that's not my fault. Vortimer ( talk) 14:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I think I have now removed any potentially questionable rulers (Caratacus) or attributions (for Ambrosius and Maelgwn) or information/links (for Idris). I have not yet put back the C12th and later rulers. I am waiting to hear any responses on this page. But if I hear nothing within a week, I plan to put them back. Vortimer ( talk) 22:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
As regards putting the later rulers back, I'd object for the simple reason they are not referred to by the title 'King of the Britons'. Unless that is, ironically enough, we accept that 'King of the Britons' can also be interpreted as meaning in effect 'King of the Welsh' (not sure about Old Irish but An Bhreatain Bheag is modern Irish for Cymru/Wales so the Annals of Ulster may also be referring to 'Kings of Wales'). Only in that way could one stretch things to make 'Prince of Wales' mean 'king of the Britons'. The other changes are an improvement. Please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from on this; I'm aware of being a Brython as well as Welsh and am proud of that heritage. Sorry I've no time to add more at the moment but I'll get back on this before long. Enaidmawr ( talk) 22:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC) [Copied from above under a new heading by Vortimer ( talk) 04:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I have created the page Kings and Princes of Wales. Perhaps there could be a discussion about limiting the page King of the Britons to Kings prior to Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Wales? In addition, should we include images and arms for the Kings of this page. This is an excellent list by the way and thanks for your hard work in forming it. Titus Gold ( talk) 21:54, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I have traced my family history directing here. Are there any other links or facts anyone could share? WWalesMadog ( talk) 03:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Per extensive discussion above, can we come to an agreed definition of who should be in this list and who should be out?
More constructively, I suggest that people to be included should be:
- Historically real
- Have a recorded name (so the eleven un-named kings of Britain whose submission Claudius boasted of wouldn't be mentioned except in so far as they can be identified.
- Documented as being normally referred to by contemporaries, or themselves, as King or Rex (excludes post-Galfridian fantasies)
- Rulers (including either acknowledged sovereign or likely-subordinate ruler, so including Tiberius Claudius Cogidubnus and Prasutagus, and saves arguments over the degree of sovereignty enjoyed) over a population thought mainly to consist of speakers of Common Brittonic or its descendants, in the island of Great Britain.
That would be quite a long list, but would have its uses and it approximates to the present article. Other articles can be transcluded to form part of it.
Does anyone have any better suggestions? Or amendments?
(It is arguable that this page should consist only of monarchs over the great majority of Britons, who were not also and primarily a monarch of England, and who also claimed the title of King of the Britons or of the Welsh. That would be a blank article. No such person ever existed. If we can't agree on a definition including a set of real people, perhaps a simple redirect to King of Wales would best serve the turn. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:17, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following rulers all assumed the title "King/Empereror of Britain/the Britons" (or related):
And yet are not on the list, presumably because - although they ruled over the Britons - they were not Britons themselves (though, in all fairness, Allectus may have been - we simply don't know).
But why, therefore, is Cunobelin on the list? He was a member of the Belgae ethnic group, and as such is just as likely to have been a speaker of a Germanic language as a Celtic language.
The basic question is this - is this list intended to be ethnically exclusive, or will it include all those who held a title equivalent to "King of the Britons"? TharkunColl 08:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Vortimer 21:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Caractacus be on this list? DanTrent ( talk) 18:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
We do not want to lose this article, so I have reverted the redirect. I have also requested that Vortimer rework the links to this article ASAP. Please be patient. Walgamanus 13:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
(Moved from User_talk:Walgamanus). At first, it was indeed the case that I did not realise there was a problem with the linked articles. When I became aware of the large number of linked articles, I put up the front-matter (for want of a better word) to King of the Britons, stating "Links to this article were formerly redirected to List of legendary kings of Britain. If you are looking ...". I had hoped that this would be acceptable, as it only requires the reader to make one click to find the article they were meant to be directed to, and on the way they also find the King of the Britons article, which in some cases may be more appropriate anyway. Vortimer 00:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 12th century onwards the title evolved into that of the Prince of Wales" - I'd dispute that. A king, one of several local kings who probably came from the original Britons went on to proclaim himself Prince of Wales. But I don't think that's an evolution of the title - he was called King of Gwynedd, not King of [the] Briton[s]. Your phrase suggests that a line of title proceeded but this was all really down to local feuding. Pbhj ( talk) 02:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing the "disputed" flag because I don't see any on-going disputes. Some issues were raised a long time ago on this discussion page. I (as principal author of the article) responded to all of them, I think successfully. If someone thinks there is still a dispute, they should open a discussion on this discussion page.
I'm also removing the "copy edit" flag. There is nothing blatantly wrong with the style of the article that I can see. If the person who put up the flag saw something stylistic that needs fixing, they should have fixed it, or at least put some comment about what needed fixing on this discussion page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vortimer ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is copied from the Template "Kings of the Britons" Talk page:
I have very serious misgivings about this template. It mixes legend and history, fact and fiction, in an unacceptable and misleading way. To cite just one example, what on earth is Idris Gawr, the legendary giant of Cader Idris doing on this list alongside medieval Welsh rulers such as Llywelyn the Great? You can not be serious? Enaidmawr ( talk) 22:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
As someone who has just come to this page with little prior knowledge, it seems to me that there may be some value in keeping it, despite the fact that much of what is there now seems to be unacceptable synthesis. However, there needs to be much greater clarity in the introduction as to the sources that have been used for the list and, in particular, to identify those in the list for whom there is no or little historical evidence, and those for which evidence exists. There should also be better links to other articles, such as List of legendary kings of Britain, and the possibility of merging the lists should at least be considered. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
As the user who first put up this page (to contain historical rather than legendary kings) I'm sorry I missed all of this discussion. Let me give some thoughts.
1. The table is not meant to imply a orderly succession of kings. It just presents all the known instances of powerful rulers of the insular Britons to which the title "king of the Britons", or a related title, was given, often retrospectively. All this is stated in the article. Moreover, unlike many wikipedia articles, it gives sources for everything. Sure, the sources could be made more specific, with titles and book and chapter numbers etc, and I'm happy for anyone to start working on that. But the references I have given is far more than many wikipedia articles have, so I don't see why it has been singled out for such harsh treatment.
2. The table refers to "King of the Britons, or a related title." I don't see why Prince of Wales should not be considered a related title. Before Enaidmawr deleted all the 12th and 13th century examples, it was clear to see that there was a gradual evolution of the titles used by the most powerful Welsh ruler from "King of the Britons" in the 11th century to "Prince of Wales" in the 13th. Part of the point of the table was to show the evolution. This point is discussed earlier in this page. I think it is artificial to break pre-Norman and post-Norman Wales apart as if there was no continuity there. So I'd request that you put them back.
3. There is an accusation that there is legendary material there. e.g. "Idris the Giant". Ok, if people think that in this instance the report from the Annals of Ulster should not be linked to any figure in Welsh history in legend, then I'm happy to remove the link. Regarding Goeffrey of Monmouth, I fail to see why he should be brought up at all. The point of the article was to "rescue" the concept of "King of the Britons" from Geoffrey's pseudohistory. This page was not based on the list of the legendary kings of Britain page, it replaced it.
4. Regarding other controversial cases: Urien and Selyf. The former I agree has a fairly weak claim to be included. The latter has a perfectly good claim - the annals of Ulster call him King of the Britons! Enaidmawr says " rex Bretanorum could equally be interpreted as "King of the Welsh" (which Selyf was not, in fact). " I don't understand what point this is supposed to make. How can Enaidmawr say confidently that Selyf was not regarded as King of the Welsh, when we know almost nothing about Brittonic politics at the time? What does Enaidmawr even mean by talking about "the Welsh" at this time? The inhabitants of modern Wales? The Cymru (which included the men of the North)? Or those whom the Saxons called Welsh, which included the Dumnonians?
5. Continuing in the same vein, I don't see that "until quite recently the terms 'Britons' and 'British tongue/language' were regularly used by English writers to refer to the Welsh people and the Welsh language" is a problem for the article. This is exactly why it made sense to continue the list to the paramount Welsh rulers in Norman times. If you think this is something readers need to be told more explicitly, I'm happy for that information to be added.
6. I'm happy for the wording of the article to continue to be improved to avoid misunderstandings. One point I should make is that I envisaged the article as referring to paramount insular Brittonic rulers, not to rulers who ruled solely in Brittany. So in this case it would not be appropriate to list Kings of Brittany. I'm not happy with the introductory paragraphs as they stand now since they refer to both insular and continental Britons and would indeed lead the educated reader to wonder why Kings like Erispoe and Salomon do not appear. (Riothamus is appropriate because there are reasons to think he was a King in Britain before crossing to the continent).
So in summary, I don't think the removal of the Welsh rulers in Norman times was justified, I don't think adding all of those "citations needed" was at all called for, but I'm sure the information in the article can be improved by a constructive approach from all concerned. Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Vortimer ( talk) 14:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
A last point.
7. The page never refers to anyone as "holder" of a title or having "held" the title. It carefully says they either used the title, or were referred to by the title given. If readers do not read what is written that's not my fault. Vortimer ( talk) 14:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I think I have now removed any potentially questionable rulers (Caratacus) or attributions (for Ambrosius and Maelgwn) or information/links (for Idris). I have not yet put back the C12th and later rulers. I am waiting to hear any responses on this page. But if I hear nothing within a week, I plan to put them back. Vortimer ( talk) 22:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
As regards putting the later rulers back, I'd object for the simple reason they are not referred to by the title 'King of the Britons'. Unless that is, ironically enough, we accept that 'King of the Britons' can also be interpreted as meaning in effect 'King of the Welsh' (not sure about Old Irish but An Bhreatain Bheag is modern Irish for Cymru/Wales so the Annals of Ulster may also be referring to 'Kings of Wales'). Only in that way could one stretch things to make 'Prince of Wales' mean 'king of the Britons'. The other changes are an improvement. Please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from on this; I'm aware of being a Brython as well as Welsh and am proud of that heritage. Sorry I've no time to add more at the moment but I'll get back on this before long. Enaidmawr ( talk) 22:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC) [Copied from above under a new heading by Vortimer ( talk) 04:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I have created the page Kings and Princes of Wales. Perhaps there could be a discussion about limiting the page King of the Britons to Kings prior to Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Wales? In addition, should we include images and arms for the Kings of this page. This is an excellent list by the way and thanks for your hard work in forming it. Titus Gold ( talk) 21:54, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I have traced my family history directing here. Are there any other links or facts anyone could share? WWalesMadog ( talk) 03:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Per extensive discussion above, can we come to an agreed definition of who should be in this list and who should be out?
More constructively, I suggest that people to be included should be:
- Historically real
- Have a recorded name (so the eleven un-named kings of Britain whose submission Claudius boasted of wouldn't be mentioned except in so far as they can be identified.
- Documented as being normally referred to by contemporaries, or themselves, as King or Rex (excludes post-Galfridian fantasies)
- Rulers (including either acknowledged sovereign or likely-subordinate ruler, so including Tiberius Claudius Cogidubnus and Prasutagus, and saves arguments over the degree of sovereignty enjoyed) over a population thought mainly to consist of speakers of Common Brittonic or its descendants, in the island of Great Britain.
That would be quite a long list, but would have its uses and it approximates to the present article. Other articles can be transcluded to form part of it.
Does anyone have any better suggestions? Or amendments?
(It is arguable that this page should consist only of monarchs over the great majority of Britons, who were not also and primarily a monarch of England, and who also claimed the title of King of the Britons or of the Welsh. That would be a blank article. No such person ever existed. If we can't agree on a definition including a set of real people, perhaps a simple redirect to King of Wales would best serve the turn. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:17, 15 September 2023 (UTC)