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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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![]() | On 14 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Shooting of Sean Bell to Killing of Sean Bell. The result of the discussion was moved. |
What difference does the religion of the Lawyers make? I find the addition of "Jewish" to be stereotypical and unnecessary, unless that's how it's referenced. But where is the source that provided that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.160.237 ( talk) 05:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The racial angle of this incident deserves discussion beyond the bare statement that Bell was black. The NAACP and several of the figures discussed in the article think there were important racial dimensions to the killing. This should be handled explicitly. For example, is police racism considered a factor in the killing? What ethnicities were the officers who killed Bell? &c. 140.247.249.58 05:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this should maybe be moved to "2006 NYPD shooting" or something similar. Precendent isn't really clear here: the Amadou Diallo shooting and Abner Louima abuse are titled with the victim's name, while the hostage taking and shooting in Colorado is under Platte Canyon High School shooting and the Nickel Mines, PA, incident is under Amish school shooting. It seems to me, at least so far, that this incident isn't tied to closely with the victim's name as Diallo and Louima. Is there something I'm missing? Natalie 16:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I originally started this article as a stub, but it got deleted under A1. However, seeing that this article has been greatly improved after someone else restarted it, I figured that I might as well restore the deleted history. :) -- Ixfd64 20:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the following sentence from "Response": "Although many would like to argue that the incident is racially motivated, many including the victims father says it is not." Please source this before putting it back in - since this is a current event it is especially important to keep POV and original research out. Natalie 17:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is biased against the NYPD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.10.104.105 ( talk • contribs) 04:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
I have removed the following: "Sean Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Joseph Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the ’90s. Trent Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery. .[7]" Because the citation is a blog (www.theurbangrindblog.com) and as per Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources, blogs are not appropriate in this case. Please find a reliable source for this information if adding it again. Natalie 00:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Why has the criminal record of Sean Bell been remeoved. It was sited with a Daily News article. To say he had "odd jobs" is just misleading. His job was a drug dealer. He been arrested twice for narcotics and once for firearm possession. The NYPD had done 2 undercover buys of crack from MR. Bell and were in the middle of building a case against him for running a drug ring. The two others in the car were also crimianls who had gun and robbery arrests in the past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.160.253.104 ( talk) 05:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
(arbitrary unindent) Did the police run a criminal background check on each individual in the car? No? Then it wasn't a factor in the incident. Find a reliable source that shows that these individual's records made a difference here and the information can be added. Otherwise, it's just your analysis. Natalie 01:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I rated this article at current class because of the article being edited during a current event. Storm05 15:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the long title.
I watched on the (local, VA) news that there was another controversy about how (verbatim) the officers said that there was a another (4th) guy who not only had the gun, but got away with it which would have explained why no gun was recovered. It was followed by how a lot of people were displeased with this poor excuse and explanation and that it ws merely said to try to justify the poor policing. However I can't find any links to that theory or it's relation to the story. Can anyone find any more information on this? Wuthai 00:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
None of the NYC news outlets have reported on this (or at least not in detail) It really changes the story, especially since all three men had been arrested at one time for ILLEGAL GUNS !
Also why was Sean Bell DRIVING DRUNK ON HIS BACHELOR NIGHT? This is abhorrent.
The three men appear to be victims of police brutality, but the fact that they have been arrested for selling drugs and holding guns without permits should not be forgotten. Apparently they aren't as 'innocent' as Al Sharpton claims...
Lets please restrict the talk page discussion to the article's content and not the article's subject. This is not the right forum to express and argue personal opinions. Also assume good faith but do not feed the trolls. Thanks. Abecedare 01:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In one section, the 5 shooting officers are named. Later, it says that four of the five have been interviewed and names them again, but using "an unnamed undercover officer" instead of identifying Gescard Isnora. Are we reasonably sure that they are indeed the same person and lose the "unnamed" bit? Mangler 21:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Let me begin by saying that I AM a New Yorker, a Brooklynite to be specific. I'll grant that the Sean Bell shooting is a terrible thing, and I feel very sorry for his friends and family, but having a whole article about this guy is ridiculous. On March 14, 2007, two NYPD Auxilaries were shot in cold blood while they attempted to make their neighborhood a safer place; they have three paragraphs dedicated to them on the NYPD page. A few days before, a white 101-year-old woman was attacked and robbed by a black male who, in an attempt to evade police, has enrolled in a mental health facility; she has a two paragraph page. Sean Bell and his bachelor party, who combined were caught in criminal activities nearly a DOZEN times (Lord nows how many times they weren't caught), have a 17 paragraph page. Yes, the 31-shot cop was excessive; Yes, the 10-shot cop was in violation of NYPD shooting standards; but for God's sake these men were in the extreme pressure cooker of the undercover world, located in a high-crime area, and their partner had just been hit by the Bell party's car, which then proceeded to ram the undercover police vehicle. Yes, the Sean Bell shooting is tragic, but we're not talking about Ward Cleaver here; we're talking about a supposedly "reformed" drug dealer who tried to run over an officer of the law. This event is newsworthy, but to pay more homage to a man who bears some responsibility for the degration of NYC than is paid to a woman who never did any harm or to two men who tried to make the city better is simply wrong. 67.72.98.93 20:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
1.) "The undercover officer followed the group and Bell was ordered by the officer to raise his hands after getting in his car. Instead, the car hit the undercover officer and, seconds later, an unmarked police minivan."
So the car just magically hit into the officer by itself? The wording completely defers any responsibility from Bell for ramming his car into an officer(while driving drunk).
2.) He wasn't "unarmed". He was ramming his vehicle into officers, and a car qualifies as a deadly weapon if you use it in that manner.
3.) The article also refers to him as having worked "odd jobs", when there is documented history that he was a drug dealer.
4.) Racism, racism, and more racism is what I keep reading. What Al Sharpton and others seem to be conveniently omitting is the racial diversity of the group of officers. Only one of them was white, and a black officer was the first to fire. Yes, this is mentioned in the article, but it's overshadowed by the rest of the article, which keeps going on and on about evil, homicidal, racist cops.
5.) Mentioning Randolph Evans in the opening paragraph adds slant to the article. Sure, it's kind of an interesting bit of trivia that it happened exactly 30 years before, but the inclusion in the opening paragraph gives the "insance, homicidal, racist cop" impression again. Besides, that was WAAAAYYYY different. The officer in that instance executed an unarmed 15-year-old kid at point black range. These officers gunned down a drunk drug dealer who was trying to run them over with his car.
Seriously, the amount of shots fired was excessive, but it's not like the officers went around looking for an innocent black man to kill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.181.145 ( talk • contribs)
1) This particular sentence perhaps should be changed, but all of the changes so far have been far too POV. "Ramming", for example, would not be a neutral change.
2) Raymond Kelly, Guiliani, the New York Times, and the New York Daily News all disagree with you.
3) Sources? Relevance?
4) You want to provide some quotes to demonstrate this allegation?
5) Sure, take it out. I don't think it gives the spin you think it gives, but it's really not that important. Natalie 15:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
While that is true, Flatscan, I think it's important to note the ambiguous nature of the article (it is, after all titled "Police Statements Vary on Firing at a Vehicle", and how it basically says the rule is lip service and "at best, selectively enforced."
Apropos of nothing in particular, but interesting, here's a direct quotes from the NYPD Police Academy Students' Guide regarding discretion in the discharging of one's weapon:
"Because these issues are not addressed in the criminal law, a prosecution of a police officer who fired a warning shot or who fired at the occupants of a moving vehicle would be highly unlikely unless it occurred in circumstances in which a prosecutor could show a jury that the shooting had been criminally reckless or negligent."
Sheesh, mixed messages much? Ford MF ( talk) 01:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Before we learn of the man's life we get "Sean Bell, a convicted career criminal thug...". Nice sentencing...out it goes. Hesperides 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Lots of mention about the shooting being a violation of department policy but no mention of what actually matters in a criminal case - The New York State Penal Law. Even if there was no firearm in the car, the fact is that the vehicle struck a police officer and then struck a police vehicle. Being in fear for his life, the police officer is ALLOWED by the New York State Penal Law to fire at a moving vehicle. Don't believe me? Take a gander at Section 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person - subsection 2-a(ii) and also Section 35.30, 1-c Invario 01:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In the recent afd discussion, several people recommended that the article be moved. The argument was that, since the subject is only notable with relation to this incident, the article should be about the incident, not the person. Suggestions for renaming included Sean Bell shooting incident and Shooting of Sean Bell. Are there others? What do folks think of moving the article? Thanks, delldot talk 10:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
"11-0 record, a 2.30 E.R.A. and 97 strikeouts in 62.2 innings" Does this means he is a talented player? Maybe some explanation would be good for us non baseball fans. F ( talk) 04:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Sean Bell was an African American man... regardless if Michael Jackson's page states it or not, this whole incident has revolved around the issue that he is a black man who was shot unarmed. Perhaps the Michael Jackson article should state that he is African American. The argument that just because his article doesnt seem to hold firm ground. Just because someone doesnt leave a hurricane warning area doesnt mean you shouldnt too. Comments? Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 15:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
if it means that much to you, add the "African American" part back. i'm not a die-hard editor on here that gets emotionally wrapped up in minor edits. suit yourselves. Drmagic ( talk) 15:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
hey, there's an awful lot of info about his arrest record here. since sean bell's notability comes only from his murder, it's worth noting that his arrest record isn't relevant to his murder at all: the officers involved weren't aware of his identity as far as i know, let alone his arrest record.
this really needs to be clarified, because otherwise it conflates his criminal record with the events of the night (the shooting is why there is an article about him in the first place). i'm not saying we shouldn't mention his arrest record, but it should be made very clear that his arrest history had nothing to do with the shooting, except for the fact that it might explain why he tried to drive off.
i edited in something along these lines in very neutral language, stuck to the facts, i can't imagine that can be anything but constructive -- my edits were reverted by someone claiming they weren't constructive. i'm not going to be headstrong about this and insist on anything, so for now i'll leave the page as is so we can have a meaningful dialogue about this.
PS -- this is a computer lab computer - i operate from multiple computers with different IPs, and multiple people use this computer who may end up editing wikipedia.
128.59.34.151 ( talk) 17:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
128.59.26.163 ( talk) 15:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The description of the events immediately surrounding the shooting are very vague. It currently reads:
Bell accelerated the car and seconds later hit an unmarked police minivan.
OK so at this point he is apparently still alive. The very next sentence says:
A toxicology report reportedly showed that he was legally drunk at the time of the shooting.
What shooting? When? Why? Even if this is just "one side of the story" that side's "story" is very incomplete. Is it being alleged that the police shot because of an auto accident? Do they usually shoot people who are involved in auto accidents? Hopefully not. So what did they think was different about this one? This story needs to be expanded significantly. 72.208.61.246 ( talk) 12:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that I risk being branded many things for suggesting deletion of this article, and I assure you that my heart goes out Sean Bell and his family, but this article clearly violates WP:ONEEVENT, which states the following:
Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but remains of essentially low profile themselves, we should generally avoid having an article on them. If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a redirect or merge are usually the better options. Cover the event, not the person.
A similar policy can be found in WP:NOT#NEWS:
Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic.
You may find discussion regarding deletion here.
I know this must disappoint many editors, but the existence of this article runs contrary to wikipedia policy. Screen stalker ( talk) 15:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
When the hell are we going to get a decision on deletion. I WANT IT TO STAY FYI.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronjohn ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
for what its worth. I looked to wiki to get information about Sean Bell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.38.77 ( talk) 01:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The entire retelling of the events the night he was shot are from the cops perspective. The details of his friends criminal record. This is a dissapointingly biased article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.38.77 ( talk) 01:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Does any one have any information on the background of the police officers involved? Ages, how long they've been on the force, any past disiplinary problems etc. It seems to me like that would be very pertinent to what is happening.-- Dudeman5685 ( talk) 04:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Nope but you should try this website NYPD DATABASE Ron John ( talk) 07:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I've just made some changes to the article. I was initially motivated to move the birthdate from the introduction after "The Sean Bell shooting incident," but I made a few more changes in the process, just because some stuff was badly placed in the article or redundant with the exact same information in another part of the article. I mean, it's almost as if this article was written by a lot of different people who decided to make a few additions to the article that existed beforehand.
Besides reordering some of the content to more appropriate sections, there was some stuff I removed. Here they are:
Bell was buried in Port Washington, New York.
Some civilian witnesses at the scene support this claim, and pointed to Jean Nelson as the fourth man.
The officers involved in the incident were Officer Gescard Isnora, who fired the first shot, Officer Michael Oliver, who fired 31 of the 50 shots, and Detective Marc Cooper. The first two faced charges of manslaughter, reckless endangerment and assault; while the last named faced a lesser charge. Isnora and Cooper are African Americans, while Oliver is white.
Two of the five officers involved were black, one was white, one was Middle-Eastern, and one was of biracial black and Hispanic origin (Haitian/Mexican). The first officer to fire was black.( Editorial, Learning From Bell. 14 December 2006. Retrieved 23 December 2006.)
(2 of whom were also African-American)
First statement removed because it's a personal detail not necessary to the article.
The second statement removed because, after checking the citations attached to the statement, I didn't find any mention of the civilian witnesses identified Jean Nelson as the fourth man, only further information about Nelson after he was being discussed as the fourth man. Also, the text with citation following it in the article actually contradicted this statement by claiming that police reports record no witnesses as reporting a fourth man.
The last three statements are basically the same; they explain the racial makeup of the group of officers involved. I understand why this was stated: these explanations are an attempt to refute claims about racial profiling and a biased police department. The only probblem is that the claims aren't even in the article.
If someone wants to re-add the last portion, they need to:
-- C. A. Russell ( talk) 03:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Why was this 2nd nomination for deletion made to disappear? I voted there and now, I look at the 2nd link at the top of the page, and poof... my vote is gone. Did something go haywire here? The vote went basically the way I had hoped (not deleted), but I still find this odd. Am I looking at something incorrectly here? Cowicide ( talk) 05:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps article should have a "current events" badge or some such thing at the top of it, due to the protest that is scheduled for 13:30 today and because of Al Sharpton's call for a NYC civil strike in the next few days. I don't know how this is done, so that's why I'm posting this message here. Sstteevvee ( talk) 17:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If the article is about the incident, not Sean Bell per se, it makes sense to remove "his personal" categories, for example category:1983 births. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 07:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I am starting this section to split off discussion on a point that came up in #POV issues. Should we describe Bell, Benefield, and Guzman as "unarmed" or "armed" at any point in the article? The adjective "unarmed" is currently in the lead, most recently added by Ronjohn in this edit. It has been occasionally added and removed in the more frequent editing following the verdict. Prior to the verdict, it appears to have been stable in a slightly less prominent location in the Diallo sentence, e.g., this version.
I oppose including either "unarmed" (Bell drove directly at and collided with Isnora, presenting deadly force) or "armed" (the men did not possess a firearm) in the lead, as both are misleading without further explanation and advance a POV. I would prefer expanding the summary of the incident slightly to cover these points. Something like "The men did not have any firearms, but Bell was armed with a car" would work if the phrasing weren't so odd. Flatscan ( talk) 02:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for tributes folks, but can we see if there are any references that back up the claims? I foresee this list getting very long and involved. Qb | your 2 cents 14:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 12:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the tributes section from the article because the "citation-needed" tags have been ignored for like eternity. I am pasting it here.
- -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 01:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
"Benefield was subsequently arrested during a gambling raid in Harlem after attending the funeral of James Brown, and again in September 2007 for hitting a woman with whom he had a child. The latter arrest resulted in his pleading guilty to a lesser charge, and accepting a conditional discharge along with counseling. [1]"
I removed this text from the background section, as it is irrelevant as background, the incidents happening after the shooting. They serve no purpose in explaining and giving background to the incident. While I left the arrests records, as clearly relevant background, I think they way they are sourced and written is dangerously close to OR, and we should consider rethinking how it is done. -- Cerejota ( talk) 12:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
References
There was some local coverage this week on Bell's family meeting with federal prosecutors. [2] I would have written a sentence into the article, but I didn't see an obvious location. Flatscan ( talk) 00:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Several of the comments posted in this forum have emphasized the need to be very explicit about the criminal records and activities of Sean Bell and his companions. However, they are mum on the question of the police officers' records (in addition to the officers' racial background, an issue raised by another posting). We know for a fact that in many cases of police brutality, the officers under scrutiny had a previous record of this type of behavior. What do we know about the police officers involved in the case??? Whatever information is available should be added to the BACKGROUND section to make that section less biased against Bell and his companions. 156.56.205.194 ( talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The "Tributes" section is back but now "sourced" with Youtube video links. Are they legit sources? -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
For this pro police biased entry full of factual errors. -- 188.23.69.202 ( talk) 11:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The article is confusing; the title indicates it is about Sean Bell, yet the text begins with someone called Guzman who is not introduced at all or even given a first name. A paragraph should be added in the beginning explaining who Guzman is and what he has to do with the case and Sean Bell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.22.82.58 ( talk) 09:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I decided to take a stab at a overview of people named Sean Bell on the Sean Bell page. Added some of the About information from the Sean Bell shot in NYC in 2006, a blurb about myself, and a blurb from the About section of film maker Sean Bell since he was high in the Google search results for Sean Bell. It needs more work, but it's a start. I removed the auto-redirect to the Sean Bell shooting incident, but it is of course linked. GatorForgen ( talk) 01:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe this bachelor party took place AFTER the wedding, but I don't understand how he was killed at his bachelor party and his wife later commented on the incident. Wouldn't she be his fiancee? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.115.77 ( talk) 02:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Might be needed. First off, Guzman turns up from nowhere. There is no mention of him earlier, so it is a tad confusing to say the least when you first read about him. Second, was Detective Isnora drunk, or had consumed alcoholic beverages prior to the shooting? If not I fail to see why it is mentioned how many drinks he was allowed to consume in his line of duty as a member of the Vice Squad. Pavuvu ( talk) 23:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
OTRS received an image File:Sean bell trial 001-1.jpg whcih may be this article. It is my practice to simply add an image when there is no image in the article, but if there already is an image, to note the existence of additional image(s) and let the editors decide whether replacement of existing images or additional inclusion is warranted.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 17:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 13:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Shooting of Sean Bell → Killing of Sean Bell – Per WP:Deaths. Inexpiable ( talk) 09:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I'm fairly new at editing Wikipedia, so I'm not sure of the process for reverting an edit, but the recent edit to "NYPD edits to Wikipedia article" should probably be reverted. It was changed to say the opposite of what it said before, but the references were kept so they all contradict the current article. Even if new sources were found to support this edit (I couldn't find anything), it's confusingly worded and strangely formatted.
(Not sure if the editor's IP is affiliated with the NYPD, but there's some irony here nonetheless.) Leelubell ( talk) 21:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
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![]() | On 14 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Shooting of Sean Bell to Killing of Sean Bell. The result of the discussion was moved. |
What difference does the religion of the Lawyers make? I find the addition of "Jewish" to be stereotypical and unnecessary, unless that's how it's referenced. But where is the source that provided that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.160.237 ( talk) 05:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The racial angle of this incident deserves discussion beyond the bare statement that Bell was black. The NAACP and several of the figures discussed in the article think there were important racial dimensions to the killing. This should be handled explicitly. For example, is police racism considered a factor in the killing? What ethnicities were the officers who killed Bell? &c. 140.247.249.58 05:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this should maybe be moved to "2006 NYPD shooting" or something similar. Precendent isn't really clear here: the Amadou Diallo shooting and Abner Louima abuse are titled with the victim's name, while the hostage taking and shooting in Colorado is under Platte Canyon High School shooting and the Nickel Mines, PA, incident is under Amish school shooting. It seems to me, at least so far, that this incident isn't tied to closely with the victim's name as Diallo and Louima. Is there something I'm missing? Natalie 16:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I originally started this article as a stub, but it got deleted under A1. However, seeing that this article has been greatly improved after someone else restarted it, I figured that I might as well restore the deleted history. :) -- Ixfd64 20:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I am removing the following sentence from "Response": "Although many would like to argue that the incident is racially motivated, many including the victims father says it is not." Please source this before putting it back in - since this is a current event it is especially important to keep POV and original research out. Natalie 17:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is biased against the NYPD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.10.104.105 ( talk • contribs) 04:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
I have removed the following: "Sean Bell had been arrested three times in the past: twice for drugs and one on a gun rap in a case that was sealed. Joseph Guzman has been busted nine times, including for armed robbery. He spent two stretches in state prison in the ’90s. Trent Benefield has a sealed record as a juvenile for gun possession and robbery. .[7]" Because the citation is a blog (www.theurbangrindblog.com) and as per Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources, blogs are not appropriate in this case. Please find a reliable source for this information if adding it again. Natalie 00:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Why has the criminal record of Sean Bell been remeoved. It was sited with a Daily News article. To say he had "odd jobs" is just misleading. His job was a drug dealer. He been arrested twice for narcotics and once for firearm possession. The NYPD had done 2 undercover buys of crack from MR. Bell and were in the middle of building a case against him for running a drug ring. The two others in the car were also crimianls who had gun and robbery arrests in the past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.160.253.104 ( talk) 05:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
(arbitrary unindent) Did the police run a criminal background check on each individual in the car? No? Then it wasn't a factor in the incident. Find a reliable source that shows that these individual's records made a difference here and the information can be added. Otherwise, it's just your analysis. Natalie 01:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I rated this article at current class because of the article being edited during a current event. Storm05 15:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the long title.
I watched on the (local, VA) news that there was another controversy about how (verbatim) the officers said that there was a another (4th) guy who not only had the gun, but got away with it which would have explained why no gun was recovered. It was followed by how a lot of people were displeased with this poor excuse and explanation and that it ws merely said to try to justify the poor policing. However I can't find any links to that theory or it's relation to the story. Can anyone find any more information on this? Wuthai 00:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
None of the NYC news outlets have reported on this (or at least not in detail) It really changes the story, especially since all three men had been arrested at one time for ILLEGAL GUNS !
Also why was Sean Bell DRIVING DRUNK ON HIS BACHELOR NIGHT? This is abhorrent.
The three men appear to be victims of police brutality, but the fact that they have been arrested for selling drugs and holding guns without permits should not be forgotten. Apparently they aren't as 'innocent' as Al Sharpton claims...
Lets please restrict the talk page discussion to the article's content and not the article's subject. This is not the right forum to express and argue personal opinions. Also assume good faith but do not feed the trolls. Thanks. Abecedare 01:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In one section, the 5 shooting officers are named. Later, it says that four of the five have been interviewed and names them again, but using "an unnamed undercover officer" instead of identifying Gescard Isnora. Are we reasonably sure that they are indeed the same person and lose the "unnamed" bit? Mangler 21:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Let me begin by saying that I AM a New Yorker, a Brooklynite to be specific. I'll grant that the Sean Bell shooting is a terrible thing, and I feel very sorry for his friends and family, but having a whole article about this guy is ridiculous. On March 14, 2007, two NYPD Auxilaries were shot in cold blood while they attempted to make their neighborhood a safer place; they have three paragraphs dedicated to them on the NYPD page. A few days before, a white 101-year-old woman was attacked and robbed by a black male who, in an attempt to evade police, has enrolled in a mental health facility; she has a two paragraph page. Sean Bell and his bachelor party, who combined were caught in criminal activities nearly a DOZEN times (Lord nows how many times they weren't caught), have a 17 paragraph page. Yes, the 31-shot cop was excessive; Yes, the 10-shot cop was in violation of NYPD shooting standards; but for God's sake these men were in the extreme pressure cooker of the undercover world, located in a high-crime area, and their partner had just been hit by the Bell party's car, which then proceeded to ram the undercover police vehicle. Yes, the Sean Bell shooting is tragic, but we're not talking about Ward Cleaver here; we're talking about a supposedly "reformed" drug dealer who tried to run over an officer of the law. This event is newsworthy, but to pay more homage to a man who bears some responsibility for the degration of NYC than is paid to a woman who never did any harm or to two men who tried to make the city better is simply wrong. 67.72.98.93 20:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
1.) "The undercover officer followed the group and Bell was ordered by the officer to raise his hands after getting in his car. Instead, the car hit the undercover officer and, seconds later, an unmarked police minivan."
So the car just magically hit into the officer by itself? The wording completely defers any responsibility from Bell for ramming his car into an officer(while driving drunk).
2.) He wasn't "unarmed". He was ramming his vehicle into officers, and a car qualifies as a deadly weapon if you use it in that manner.
3.) The article also refers to him as having worked "odd jobs", when there is documented history that he was a drug dealer.
4.) Racism, racism, and more racism is what I keep reading. What Al Sharpton and others seem to be conveniently omitting is the racial diversity of the group of officers. Only one of them was white, and a black officer was the first to fire. Yes, this is mentioned in the article, but it's overshadowed by the rest of the article, which keeps going on and on about evil, homicidal, racist cops.
5.) Mentioning Randolph Evans in the opening paragraph adds slant to the article. Sure, it's kind of an interesting bit of trivia that it happened exactly 30 years before, but the inclusion in the opening paragraph gives the "insance, homicidal, racist cop" impression again. Besides, that was WAAAAYYYY different. The officer in that instance executed an unarmed 15-year-old kid at point black range. These officers gunned down a drunk drug dealer who was trying to run them over with his car.
Seriously, the amount of shots fired was excessive, but it's not like the officers went around looking for an innocent black man to kill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.181.145 ( talk • contribs)
1) This particular sentence perhaps should be changed, but all of the changes so far have been far too POV. "Ramming", for example, would not be a neutral change.
2) Raymond Kelly, Guiliani, the New York Times, and the New York Daily News all disagree with you.
3) Sources? Relevance?
4) You want to provide some quotes to demonstrate this allegation?
5) Sure, take it out. I don't think it gives the spin you think it gives, but it's really not that important. Natalie 15:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
While that is true, Flatscan, I think it's important to note the ambiguous nature of the article (it is, after all titled "Police Statements Vary on Firing at a Vehicle", and how it basically says the rule is lip service and "at best, selectively enforced."
Apropos of nothing in particular, but interesting, here's a direct quotes from the NYPD Police Academy Students' Guide regarding discretion in the discharging of one's weapon:
"Because these issues are not addressed in the criminal law, a prosecution of a police officer who fired a warning shot or who fired at the occupants of a moving vehicle would be highly unlikely unless it occurred in circumstances in which a prosecutor could show a jury that the shooting had been criminally reckless or negligent."
Sheesh, mixed messages much? Ford MF ( talk) 01:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Before we learn of the man's life we get "Sean Bell, a convicted career criminal thug...". Nice sentencing...out it goes. Hesperides 01:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Lots of mention about the shooting being a violation of department policy but no mention of what actually matters in a criminal case - The New York State Penal Law. Even if there was no firearm in the car, the fact is that the vehicle struck a police officer and then struck a police vehicle. Being in fear for his life, the police officer is ALLOWED by the New York State Penal Law to fire at a moving vehicle. Don't believe me? Take a gander at Section 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person - subsection 2-a(ii) and also Section 35.30, 1-c Invario 01:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In the recent afd discussion, several people recommended that the article be moved. The argument was that, since the subject is only notable with relation to this incident, the article should be about the incident, not the person. Suggestions for renaming included Sean Bell shooting incident and Shooting of Sean Bell. Are there others? What do folks think of moving the article? Thanks, delldot talk 10:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
"11-0 record, a 2.30 E.R.A. and 97 strikeouts in 62.2 innings" Does this means he is a talented player? Maybe some explanation would be good for us non baseball fans. F ( talk) 04:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Sean Bell was an African American man... regardless if Michael Jackson's page states it or not, this whole incident has revolved around the issue that he is a black man who was shot unarmed. Perhaps the Michael Jackson article should state that he is African American. The argument that just because his article doesnt seem to hold firm ground. Just because someone doesnt leave a hurricane warning area doesnt mean you shouldnt too. Comments? Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 15:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
if it means that much to you, add the "African American" part back. i'm not a die-hard editor on here that gets emotionally wrapped up in minor edits. suit yourselves. Drmagic ( talk) 15:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
hey, there's an awful lot of info about his arrest record here. since sean bell's notability comes only from his murder, it's worth noting that his arrest record isn't relevant to his murder at all: the officers involved weren't aware of his identity as far as i know, let alone his arrest record.
this really needs to be clarified, because otherwise it conflates his criminal record with the events of the night (the shooting is why there is an article about him in the first place). i'm not saying we shouldn't mention his arrest record, but it should be made very clear that his arrest history had nothing to do with the shooting, except for the fact that it might explain why he tried to drive off.
i edited in something along these lines in very neutral language, stuck to the facts, i can't imagine that can be anything but constructive -- my edits were reverted by someone claiming they weren't constructive. i'm not going to be headstrong about this and insist on anything, so for now i'll leave the page as is so we can have a meaningful dialogue about this.
PS -- this is a computer lab computer - i operate from multiple computers with different IPs, and multiple people use this computer who may end up editing wikipedia.
128.59.34.151 ( talk) 17:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
128.59.26.163 ( talk) 15:08, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The description of the events immediately surrounding the shooting are very vague. It currently reads:
Bell accelerated the car and seconds later hit an unmarked police minivan.
OK so at this point he is apparently still alive. The very next sentence says:
A toxicology report reportedly showed that he was legally drunk at the time of the shooting.
What shooting? When? Why? Even if this is just "one side of the story" that side's "story" is very incomplete. Is it being alleged that the police shot because of an auto accident? Do they usually shoot people who are involved in auto accidents? Hopefully not. So what did they think was different about this one? This story needs to be expanded significantly. 72.208.61.246 ( talk) 12:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that I risk being branded many things for suggesting deletion of this article, and I assure you that my heart goes out Sean Bell and his family, but this article clearly violates WP:ONEEVENT, which states the following:
Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but remains of essentially low profile themselves, we should generally avoid having an article on them. If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a redirect or merge are usually the better options. Cover the event, not the person.
A similar policy can be found in WP:NOT#NEWS:
Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic.
You may find discussion regarding deletion here.
I know this must disappoint many editors, but the existence of this article runs contrary to wikipedia policy. Screen stalker ( talk) 15:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
When the hell are we going to get a decision on deletion. I WANT IT TO STAY FYI.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronjohn ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
for what its worth. I looked to wiki to get information about Sean Bell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.38.77 ( talk) 01:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The entire retelling of the events the night he was shot are from the cops perspective. The details of his friends criminal record. This is a dissapointingly biased article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.38.77 ( talk) 01:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Does any one have any information on the background of the police officers involved? Ages, how long they've been on the force, any past disiplinary problems etc. It seems to me like that would be very pertinent to what is happening.-- Dudeman5685 ( talk) 04:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Nope but you should try this website NYPD DATABASE Ron John ( talk) 07:31, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I've just made some changes to the article. I was initially motivated to move the birthdate from the introduction after "The Sean Bell shooting incident," but I made a few more changes in the process, just because some stuff was badly placed in the article or redundant with the exact same information in another part of the article. I mean, it's almost as if this article was written by a lot of different people who decided to make a few additions to the article that existed beforehand.
Besides reordering some of the content to more appropriate sections, there was some stuff I removed. Here they are:
Bell was buried in Port Washington, New York.
Some civilian witnesses at the scene support this claim, and pointed to Jean Nelson as the fourth man.
The officers involved in the incident were Officer Gescard Isnora, who fired the first shot, Officer Michael Oliver, who fired 31 of the 50 shots, and Detective Marc Cooper. The first two faced charges of manslaughter, reckless endangerment and assault; while the last named faced a lesser charge. Isnora and Cooper are African Americans, while Oliver is white.
Two of the five officers involved were black, one was white, one was Middle-Eastern, and one was of biracial black and Hispanic origin (Haitian/Mexican). The first officer to fire was black.( Editorial, Learning From Bell. 14 December 2006. Retrieved 23 December 2006.)
(2 of whom were also African-American)
First statement removed because it's a personal detail not necessary to the article.
The second statement removed because, after checking the citations attached to the statement, I didn't find any mention of the civilian witnesses identified Jean Nelson as the fourth man, only further information about Nelson after he was being discussed as the fourth man. Also, the text with citation following it in the article actually contradicted this statement by claiming that police reports record no witnesses as reporting a fourth man.
The last three statements are basically the same; they explain the racial makeup of the group of officers involved. I understand why this was stated: these explanations are an attempt to refute claims about racial profiling and a biased police department. The only probblem is that the claims aren't even in the article.
If someone wants to re-add the last portion, they need to:
-- C. A. Russell ( talk) 03:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Why was this 2nd nomination for deletion made to disappear? I voted there and now, I look at the 2nd link at the top of the page, and poof... my vote is gone. Did something go haywire here? The vote went basically the way I had hoped (not deleted), but I still find this odd. Am I looking at something incorrectly here? Cowicide ( talk) 05:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps article should have a "current events" badge or some such thing at the top of it, due to the protest that is scheduled for 13:30 today and because of Al Sharpton's call for a NYC civil strike in the next few days. I don't know how this is done, so that's why I'm posting this message here. Sstteevvee ( talk) 17:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If the article is about the incident, not Sean Bell per se, it makes sense to remove "his personal" categories, for example category:1983 births. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 07:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I am starting this section to split off discussion on a point that came up in #POV issues. Should we describe Bell, Benefield, and Guzman as "unarmed" or "armed" at any point in the article? The adjective "unarmed" is currently in the lead, most recently added by Ronjohn in this edit. It has been occasionally added and removed in the more frequent editing following the verdict. Prior to the verdict, it appears to have been stable in a slightly less prominent location in the Diallo sentence, e.g., this version.
I oppose including either "unarmed" (Bell drove directly at and collided with Isnora, presenting deadly force) or "armed" (the men did not possess a firearm) in the lead, as both are misleading without further explanation and advance a POV. I would prefer expanding the summary of the incident slightly to cover these points. Something like "The men did not have any firearms, but Bell was armed with a car" would work if the phrasing weren't so odd. Flatscan ( talk) 02:09, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for tributes folks, but can we see if there are any references that back up the claims? I foresee this list getting very long and involved. Qb | your 2 cents 14:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 12:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the tributes section from the article because the "citation-needed" tags have been ignored for like eternity. I am pasting it here.
- -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 01:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
"Benefield was subsequently arrested during a gambling raid in Harlem after attending the funeral of James Brown, and again in September 2007 for hitting a woman with whom he had a child. The latter arrest resulted in his pleading guilty to a lesser charge, and accepting a conditional discharge along with counseling. [1]"
I removed this text from the background section, as it is irrelevant as background, the incidents happening after the shooting. They serve no purpose in explaining and giving background to the incident. While I left the arrests records, as clearly relevant background, I think they way they are sourced and written is dangerously close to OR, and we should consider rethinking how it is done. -- Cerejota ( talk) 12:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
References
There was some local coverage this week on Bell's family meeting with federal prosecutors. [2] I would have written a sentence into the article, but I didn't see an obvious location. Flatscan ( talk) 00:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Several of the comments posted in this forum have emphasized the need to be very explicit about the criminal records and activities of Sean Bell and his companions. However, they are mum on the question of the police officers' records (in addition to the officers' racial background, an issue raised by another posting). We know for a fact that in many cases of police brutality, the officers under scrutiny had a previous record of this type of behavior. What do we know about the police officers involved in the case??? Whatever information is available should be added to the BACKGROUND section to make that section less biased against Bell and his companions. 156.56.205.194 ( talk) 19:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The "Tributes" section is back but now "sourced" with Youtube video links. Are they legit sources? -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 03:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
For this pro police biased entry full of factual errors. -- 188.23.69.202 ( talk) 11:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The article is confusing; the title indicates it is about Sean Bell, yet the text begins with someone called Guzman who is not introduced at all or even given a first name. A paragraph should be added in the beginning explaining who Guzman is and what he has to do with the case and Sean Bell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.22.82.58 ( talk) 09:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I decided to take a stab at a overview of people named Sean Bell on the Sean Bell page. Added some of the About information from the Sean Bell shot in NYC in 2006, a blurb about myself, and a blurb from the About section of film maker Sean Bell since he was high in the Google search results for Sean Bell. It needs more work, but it's a start. I removed the auto-redirect to the Sean Bell shooting incident, but it is of course linked. GatorForgen ( talk) 01:03, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Maybe this bachelor party took place AFTER the wedding, but I don't understand how he was killed at his bachelor party and his wife later commented on the incident. Wouldn't she be his fiancee? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.115.77 ( talk) 02:31, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Might be needed. First off, Guzman turns up from nowhere. There is no mention of him earlier, so it is a tad confusing to say the least when you first read about him. Second, was Detective Isnora drunk, or had consumed alcoholic beverages prior to the shooting? If not I fail to see why it is mentioned how many drinks he was allowed to consume in his line of duty as a member of the Vice Squad. Pavuvu ( talk) 23:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
OTRS received an image File:Sean bell trial 001-1.jpg whcih may be this article. It is my practice to simply add an image when there is no image in the article, but if there already is an image, to note the existence of additional image(s) and let the editors decide whether replacement of existing images or additional inclusion is warranted.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 17:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( non-admin closure) -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 13:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Shooting of Sean Bell → Killing of Sean Bell – Per WP:Deaths. Inexpiable ( talk) 09:51, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Hello! I'm fairly new at editing Wikipedia, so I'm not sure of the process for reverting an edit, but the recent edit to "NYPD edits to Wikipedia article" should probably be reverted. It was changed to say the opposite of what it said before, but the references were kept so they all contradict the current article. Even if new sources were found to support this edit (I couldn't find anything), it's confusingly worded and strangely formatted.
(Not sure if the editor's IP is affiliated with the NYPD, but there's some irony here nonetheless.) Leelubell ( talk) 21:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)