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Killing of Neda Agha-Soltan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Neda Agha-Soltan was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 01 July 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Killing of Neda Agha-Soltan. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 21 June 2009. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 20, 2012, June 20, 2016, and June 20, 2020. |
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
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Interesting interview with a doctor who was with her when she was dying: BBC material (YouTube) and with her fiance channel one Shahram Homayoun (YouTube), in Persian and Al Jazeera (in English) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuvar1 ( talk • contribs) 11:34, June 25, 2009(UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
In Australia, ABC news reported that she had been shot from the rooftops. The next news report from a different source stated that the protesters had commenced a new strategy, in that they were protesting from the rooftops. Is it a possible 'false flag' incident, that is, was she shot by her own people in order to obtain sympathy for their cause? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.129.109.157 ( talk) 20:56, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Mhhossein: see talk page and see nobody wants to put this tag but you.
The article suffers from several POV issues; The text gives the readers the impression that the death was in fact a killing carried out by the Iranian government. It's in the lead saying it was done by Basij, without having denials accompanied by it. The article does not say anything the " intersection" documentary by Marzieh Hashemi. Also, it dedicates a whole section to "CIA conspiracy theory" while just dedicates almost a line to the "conspiracy of western governments". The article gives the least space to the counter arguments. For example there are allegations regarding the role of an un-known woman in the incident, or how some anti-government parties criticized a documentary by Iranian government, even when it was not braodcasted. -- Mhhossein talk 08:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
One may also take a look at this Persian source raising doubts over the death incident, which is likewise not covered in the article. -- Mhhossein talk 11:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Can some one say which source supports "Wolf Blitzer was incredulous that Ghadiri would offer a conspiracy theory..."
? Also, why sources like
this is not used to balance the view points? --
Mhhossein
talk 12:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
"In recent years the unjust suffering or death of specific individuals, referred to here as violent person-events, has been at the centre of political protest in several countries: such as the case of Neda Agha-Soltan, shot and killed by a regime-related militiaman during protests against the fraudulent presidential election in Iran in 2009 ". -- Olesen, Thomas. "Dramatic Diffusion and Meaning Adaption: The Case of Neda", in Spreading Protest: Social Movements in Times of Crisis Donatella della Porta, Alice Mattoni (ed). ECPR Press. p. 71
"The reaction of various organs and officials of the Islamic Republic was entirely predictable and all predicated on their penchant for conspiracy theories. This whole incident, they insisted, was a plot by the CIA, the BBC, and the CNN to defame the Islamic Republic and thus pave the way for a velvet revolution ". -- Dabashi, Hamid (2016). Iran: The Rebirth of a Nation. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 150
@ Mhhossein: "BRD and ONUS has nothing to do with discussion" :
Yes it has, this is the way this encyclopedia works, whether you like it or not.
"There are unresolved issues" :
And who exactly consider this as "unresolved issues" ? which reliable source ? Marzieh Hashemi ? a Press TV journalist ?? do you really think that Hashemi can/wants to contradict the government version of the course of events ? Stop wasting our time with your WP:FORUM-like posts to push your pro-Mullahs POV without providing any reliable source and desist from threatening other users who made only one revert of warning, the only one who deserves to be warned for edit warring here is you and only you and so you have been by me on your talk. Just drop it or provide high quality reliable sources, not like the crap you posted above in your first comment of the section..---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
I've been dealing with this article since I find to be POVish giving undue weight to some certain POVs. Though, I'm re-listing the issues of the article here:
1. The contradictory image created for Neda by various accounts is not covered in this article. See
this source for example: "The image of a determined a rebellious woman is contrasted with the description of Neda as joyful, positive, pure and almost ephemeral person."
In another part of the book, the author writes: "...Despite the fact that little was known about Neda and her background at this point, [senator] McCain unequally interprets her death as individual sacrifice in the larger historic struggle for democracy."
Of course, there are some more point, too, and I just meant to show not all the main POVs are included here regarding her image.
2. Why not including things such as:
"The symbolism of a bloody image of a female body, breathlessly lying on the pavement of a chaotic street, provided more than a propaganda device for the opposition to attack the regime,"by Routledge
"While acknowledging that Neda's death was a tragedy and a sad occurrence, we cannot omit the embedded political theatre and the use of goriz techniques In fact, by romanticising, idealising, exaggerating national and international political actors utilised it as a political tool to manipulate people's emotional responses to the protests in Iran,"
"Now, as cynical as it may be, the political actors had an innocent victim to use for their own agenda, and to evoke the emotion of the public."(the two latter segments by by Taylor & Francis).
"As a political practice, disingenuous empathy tends to lead to hegemony. Witness the recent HBO film in which Neda was repeatedly referred to as an “ordinary girl” who liked music, dancing and makeup. Asked blogger Diana at Muslimah Media watch:"if Agha-soltan were pictured wearing the chador, would viewers feel as as though they could identify with her?"", or
"A number of critics have argued that notions of race somehow figured in the massive uptake of this video online...writer Tami argued Westerners fetishized Neda's death "in a way they would not if she were a young, blonde, American college student shot down on an American street."( by Routledge).
"Even though the video of Neda Agha Soltan originated from the multiplicity and fast circulation of images characteristics of today's visual culture and online media flow, the news media conducted 'business as usual' in their framing of the footage as a symbolic icon."( by Routledge)
3. Marzieh Hashemi's documentary, Intersection, is not even mentioned, though there are reliable sources talking about it (see Al-monitor, for instance).
4. Some of IRI sources are reliable when attributed (for narrating major POVs of the government and/or pro-government parties). This item can be addressed case by case.
Note: I feel like being ganged by three users (Wikaviani, LouisAragon, HistoryofIran). Just imagine, HistoryofIran's only edit to this article before this, dates back to 2015. In spite of this, he suddenly showed up and removed a POV tag without commenting on the POV issues of the article. More interesting is that LouisAragon has had no edits to this article. This is while, the three users are heavily connected in their user talk pages. I'm not going to jump into conclusions, but it probably should be taken into account. -- Mhhossein talk 12:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
"The symbolism of a bloody image of a female body, breathlessly lying on the pavement of a chaotic street, provided more than a propaganda device for the opposition to attack the regime,"by Routledge -- Is there a reason why you omitted this part, located on the same page (p. 88) and the next page (p.89)?; "In an apparent attempt to spin the story, a number of state officials quickly went public with the claim that foreign forces - including the CIA - were behind the assasination. (...) In many ways, the state's propagation of various conspiracies around Neda's assasination served as a strategic discursive attempt to produce a counterdiscourse in order to discredit anti-government allegations and rumors of state brutality ".
"Now, as cynical as it may be, the political actors had an innocent victim to use for their own agenda, and to evoke the emotion of the public."(the two latter segments by by Taylor & Francis). -- Idem ditto; why did you ommit this excerpt?; "To frustrate the claims of reformists, the government used the scapegoat mechanism and blamed American agents or other parties for killing Neda, while also trying to declare Neda as a martyr of the regime." (p. 132)
@ Mhhossein: Stop POV pushing and edit warring, consider this as a last warning before report. You have not achieved any consensus for your changes. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 11 July 2020. The result of the move review was overturned and relisted. |
It was proposed in this section that
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan be
renamed and moved to
Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan.
result: Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan → Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan – The usual convention for articles on Wikipedia that are about deaths by shooting is "Shooting of" (unless they are clearly murder and are called "Murder of"). This is consistent across many articles – see the consistent naming pattern of the large number of articles in Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Canada, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Australia, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Thailand, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Germany, and similar categories for most other countries. This has been supported by recent consensus in several RM discussions, including the recent multi-article RMs at Talk:Shooting of Roni Levi, Talk:Shooting of Sammy Yatim , Talk:Shooting of Breonna Taylor, and Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson, and also single-page RM discussions at Talk:Shooting of Chaiyaphum Pasae, Talk:Shooting of Benno Ohnesorg, and Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori. — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Mz7 ( talk) 06:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Previous closure
|
---|
The result of the move request was: moved (to Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan). ~ Amkgp 💬 14:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC) |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Killing of Neda Agha-Soltan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Neda Agha-Soltan was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 01 July 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Killing of Neda Agha-Soltan. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 21 June 2009. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 20, 2012, June 20, 2016, and June 20, 2020. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
|
Interesting interview with a doctor who was with her when she was dying: BBC material (YouTube) and with her fiance channel one Shahram Homayoun (YouTube), in Persian and Al Jazeera (in English) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuvar1 ( talk • contribs) 11:34, June 25, 2009(UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 10:28, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
In Australia, ABC news reported that she had been shot from the rooftops. The next news report from a different source stated that the protesters had commenced a new strategy, in that they were protesting from the rooftops. Is it a possible 'false flag' incident, that is, was she shot by her own people in order to obtain sympathy for their cause? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.129.109.157 ( talk) 20:56, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Mhhossein: see talk page and see nobody wants to put this tag but you.
The article suffers from several POV issues; The text gives the readers the impression that the death was in fact a killing carried out by the Iranian government. It's in the lead saying it was done by Basij, without having denials accompanied by it. The article does not say anything the " intersection" documentary by Marzieh Hashemi. Also, it dedicates a whole section to "CIA conspiracy theory" while just dedicates almost a line to the "conspiracy of western governments". The article gives the least space to the counter arguments. For example there are allegations regarding the role of an un-known woman in the incident, or how some anti-government parties criticized a documentary by Iranian government, even when it was not braodcasted. -- Mhhossein talk 08:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
One may also take a look at this Persian source raising doubts over the death incident, which is likewise not covered in the article. -- Mhhossein talk 11:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Can some one say which source supports "Wolf Blitzer was incredulous that Ghadiri would offer a conspiracy theory..."
? Also, why sources like
this is not used to balance the view points? --
Mhhossein
talk 12:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
"In recent years the unjust suffering or death of specific individuals, referred to here as violent person-events, has been at the centre of political protest in several countries: such as the case of Neda Agha-Soltan, shot and killed by a regime-related militiaman during protests against the fraudulent presidential election in Iran in 2009 ". -- Olesen, Thomas. "Dramatic Diffusion and Meaning Adaption: The Case of Neda", in Spreading Protest: Social Movements in Times of Crisis Donatella della Porta, Alice Mattoni (ed). ECPR Press. p. 71
"The reaction of various organs and officials of the Islamic Republic was entirely predictable and all predicated on their penchant for conspiracy theories. This whole incident, they insisted, was a plot by the CIA, the BBC, and the CNN to defame the Islamic Republic and thus pave the way for a velvet revolution ". -- Dabashi, Hamid (2016). Iran: The Rebirth of a Nation. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 150
@ Mhhossein: "BRD and ONUS has nothing to do with discussion" :
Yes it has, this is the way this encyclopedia works, whether you like it or not.
"There are unresolved issues" :
And who exactly consider this as "unresolved issues" ? which reliable source ? Marzieh Hashemi ? a Press TV journalist ?? do you really think that Hashemi can/wants to contradict the government version of the course of events ? Stop wasting our time with your WP:FORUM-like posts to push your pro-Mullahs POV without providing any reliable source and desist from threatening other users who made only one revert of warning, the only one who deserves to be warned for edit warring here is you and only you and so you have been by me on your talk. Just drop it or provide high quality reliable sources, not like the crap you posted above in your first comment of the section..---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 20:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
I've been dealing with this article since I find to be POVish giving undue weight to some certain POVs. Though, I'm re-listing the issues of the article here:
1. The contradictory image created for Neda by various accounts is not covered in this article. See
this source for example: "The image of a determined a rebellious woman is contrasted with the description of Neda as joyful, positive, pure and almost ephemeral person."
In another part of the book, the author writes: "...Despite the fact that little was known about Neda and her background at this point, [senator] McCain unequally interprets her death as individual sacrifice in the larger historic struggle for democracy."
Of course, there are some more point, too, and I just meant to show not all the main POVs are included here regarding her image.
2. Why not including things such as:
"The symbolism of a bloody image of a female body, breathlessly lying on the pavement of a chaotic street, provided more than a propaganda device for the opposition to attack the regime,"by Routledge
"While acknowledging that Neda's death was a tragedy and a sad occurrence, we cannot omit the embedded political theatre and the use of goriz techniques In fact, by romanticising, idealising, exaggerating national and international political actors utilised it as a political tool to manipulate people's emotional responses to the protests in Iran,"
"Now, as cynical as it may be, the political actors had an innocent victim to use for their own agenda, and to evoke the emotion of the public."(the two latter segments by by Taylor & Francis).
"As a political practice, disingenuous empathy tends to lead to hegemony. Witness the recent HBO film in which Neda was repeatedly referred to as an “ordinary girl” who liked music, dancing and makeup. Asked blogger Diana at Muslimah Media watch:"if Agha-soltan were pictured wearing the chador, would viewers feel as as though they could identify with her?"", or
"A number of critics have argued that notions of race somehow figured in the massive uptake of this video online...writer Tami argued Westerners fetishized Neda's death "in a way they would not if she were a young, blonde, American college student shot down on an American street."( by Routledge).
"Even though the video of Neda Agha Soltan originated from the multiplicity and fast circulation of images characteristics of today's visual culture and online media flow, the news media conducted 'business as usual' in their framing of the footage as a symbolic icon."( by Routledge)
3. Marzieh Hashemi's documentary, Intersection, is not even mentioned, though there are reliable sources talking about it (see Al-monitor, for instance).
4. Some of IRI sources are reliable when attributed (for narrating major POVs of the government and/or pro-government parties). This item can be addressed case by case.
Note: I feel like being ganged by three users (Wikaviani, LouisAragon, HistoryofIran). Just imagine, HistoryofIran's only edit to this article before this, dates back to 2015. In spite of this, he suddenly showed up and removed a POV tag without commenting on the POV issues of the article. More interesting is that LouisAragon has had no edits to this article. This is while, the three users are heavily connected in their user talk pages. I'm not going to jump into conclusions, but it probably should be taken into account. -- Mhhossein talk 12:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
"The symbolism of a bloody image of a female body, breathlessly lying on the pavement of a chaotic street, provided more than a propaganda device for the opposition to attack the regime,"by Routledge -- Is there a reason why you omitted this part, located on the same page (p. 88) and the next page (p.89)?; "In an apparent attempt to spin the story, a number of state officials quickly went public with the claim that foreign forces - including the CIA - were behind the assasination. (...) In many ways, the state's propagation of various conspiracies around Neda's assasination served as a strategic discursive attempt to produce a counterdiscourse in order to discredit anti-government allegations and rumors of state brutality ".
"Now, as cynical as it may be, the political actors had an innocent victim to use for their own agenda, and to evoke the emotion of the public."(the two latter segments by by Taylor & Francis). -- Idem ditto; why did you ommit this excerpt?; "To frustrate the claims of reformists, the government used the scapegoat mechanism and blamed American agents or other parties for killing Neda, while also trying to declare Neda as a martyr of the regime." (p. 132)
@ Mhhossein: Stop POV pushing and edit warring, consider this as a last warning before report. You have not achieved any consensus for your changes. Regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 23:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 11 July 2020. The result of the move review was overturned and relisted. |
It was proposed in this section that
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan be
renamed and moved to
Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan.
result: Links:
current log •
target log
This is template {{
subst:Requested move/end}} |
Death of Neda Agha-Soltan → Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan – The usual convention for articles on Wikipedia that are about deaths by shooting is "Shooting of" (unless they are clearly murder and are called "Murder of"). This is consistent across many articles – see the consistent naming pattern of the large number of articles in Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in the United States, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Canada, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Australia, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Thailand, Category:People shot dead by law enforcement officers in Germany, and similar categories for most other countries. This has been supported by recent consensus in several RM discussions, including the recent multi-article RMs at Talk:Shooting of Roni Levi, Talk:Shooting of Sammy Yatim , Talk:Shooting of Breonna Taylor, and Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson, and also single-page RM discussions at Talk:Shooting of Chaiyaphum Pasae, Talk:Shooting of Benno Ohnesorg, and Talk:Shooting of Yoshihiro Hattori. — BarrelProof ( talk) 22:51, 2 July 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Mz7 ( talk) 06:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Previous closure
|
---|
The result of the move request was: moved (to Shooting of Neda Agha-Soltan). ~ Amkgp 💬 14:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC) |