This article was nominated for deletion on 8 September 2016. The result of the discussion was keep. |
A fact from Killing of Henryk Siwiak appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 11 September 2016 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 14:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Henryk Siwiak homicide → Shooting of Henryk Siwiak – Should be consistent with other similar titles about such deaths of low-profile persons. Alternatively, go for Death of Henryk Siwiak, apparently more neutral than "shooting" or "homicide". George Ho ( talk) 22:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
If anything we should rename the older articles to be consistent with this, as I did with Chandra Levy homicide recently when the prosecution dropped the charges against the alleged perpetrator rather than retry him, leaving that the only sound name under policy we could give the article. We are not and should not be bound by older, less wisely chosen editorial decisions not only in article naming but in anything we do. Daniel Case ( talk) 01:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
And to repeat what I've said about "shooting of ...", that doesn't automatically communicate that the victim died. We IMO ought to save it for situations where the victim survives. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to "Killing of Henryk Siwiak". There is a consensus that the present title is unsatisfactory, and a general acceptance that "Killing of Henryk Siwiak" is a better title. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 13:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Henryk Siwiak homicide →
Shooting of Henryk Siwiak – Per
WP:CONSISTENT. This is a re-argument of the unsuccessful RM from nearly four years ago, above, as well as a reflection of the just-concluded
Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson#Requested move 14 May 2020. Wikipedia main title headers have certain established forms and, while participants in
WP:WikiProject Death may wish to add their viewpoints, the standard titles, depending upon circumstances, are Murder of..., Killing of..., Shooting of... [both fatal and non-fatal], Assassination of..., Execution of..., Lynching of..., Suicide of... and Death of... [which includes historical events, such as
Death of Edgar Allan Poe]. The form depicted here — "Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxx homicide" — has not been used for other article headers. —
Roman Spinner
(talk •
contribs) 20:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
Natg 19 (
talk) 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
For the longest time the name of the victim has comfortably modified "homicide" when that term has been used to describe a killing where there has been no murder or manslaughter trial. Daniel Case ( talk) 04:45, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
"Shooting of ..." seems to be preferred for cases where someone is shot by the police and there is a controversy over it.
And just because we have done it that way doesn't mean that it has always been right and in accordance with policy. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
"Shooting of" was as far as I know instituted around 2014 to deal with police-shooting articles because "murder of" in those cases was deemed too judgemental and POV (as it is in any case where there is no conviction and theoretically could be) I don't see why, in the U.S. context at least, "foo homicide" can't work for police killings as well, since the term is accurate in that case as well.
It seems like most American editors, at least, are OK with this; British editors have told me that to their ears the term sounds rather unfamiliar and distinctly American (although I have found that both the Crown Prosecution Service and the National Statistics Office are trying, slowly, to change that). Daniel Case ( talk) 21:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
One of my main problems with this is that not all unsolved homicides are shootings. Following this example, we'd have to go with, say, " Stabbing of Betsy Aardsma", " Strangulation of Susanne Lindholm" and so forth. Why fracture the titling scheme so much when there's one word that would serve the same purpose regardless of the manner of death and keep article titles shorter to boot? I do not and cannot accept "because we've always done it that way" as a valid reason, unless it's more honestly phrased as "because we're not tired of being lazy yet." Daniel Case ( talk) 18:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
My very valid objections to "murder of ..." in titles of articles about unsolved recent homicides notwithstanding, I am somewhat OK with its use in articles about cases old enough that it is unlikely that anyone who committed the crime is still alive to be charged and face trial ... I created and researched Murder of Pamela Werner under that title since it had happened 80 years ago, right before a devastating war that almost no one related to the case who wasn't British is known to have survived. Likewise the much older Gatton murders. And while I would still prefer the Aardsma case article be titled as a homicide, at least for now since the PSP are still investigating it, I went with Murder of Jane Britton, from almost the same time, since the police were able to link the DNA to a suspect who died in prison in 2002—it's de facto solved and we don't have to worry about impugning the innocence of a dead person.
I don't see what the fact that they were shot has to do with how we title articles ... unless, as you imply, we are doing so to make some sort of statement about gun violence in the United States. If that is, then it's POV and we should very much be avoiding that, however passionately we as individuals may feel about it.
Two questions then: 1) Would you use the "shooting of ..." form, or some variety, if we were to have standalone articles on, say, the deaths by accidental self-inflicted shooting of Terry Kath or Jon-Erik Hexum ("Accidental shooting of ..."?) 2) I have also created Suicide of Randy Potter, the only standalone article I've written about the suicide of a non-notable person, since it gained national notability when the police found his body in his car in an airport parking lot near his months after he'd been reported missing, an airport parking lot that supposedly checked and kept every license plate number on file every day. Since Potter had shot himself, should the article title thus reflect it? ("Suicide by shooting of ..."?)
Roman, really, your answer reads like you were more afraid of not getting the last word in than that you had anything substantial to say. Daniel Case ( talk) 17:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Killing of Lizzie O'Neill which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 8 September 2016. The result of the discussion was keep. |
A fact from Killing of Henryk Siwiak appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 11 September 2016 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 14:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Henryk Siwiak homicide → Shooting of Henryk Siwiak – Should be consistent with other similar titles about such deaths of low-profile persons. Alternatively, go for Death of Henryk Siwiak, apparently more neutral than "shooting" or "homicide". George Ho ( talk) 22:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
If anything we should rename the older articles to be consistent with this, as I did with Chandra Levy homicide recently when the prosecution dropped the charges against the alleged perpetrator rather than retry him, leaving that the only sound name under policy we could give the article. We are not and should not be bound by older, less wisely chosen editorial decisions not only in article naming but in anything we do. Daniel Case ( talk) 01:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
And to repeat what I've said about "shooting of ...", that doesn't automatically communicate that the victim died. We IMO ought to save it for situations where the victim survives. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to "Killing of Henryk Siwiak". There is a consensus that the present title is unsatisfactory, and a general acceptance that "Killing of Henryk Siwiak" is a better title. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 13:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Henryk Siwiak homicide →
Shooting of Henryk Siwiak – Per
WP:CONSISTENT. This is a re-argument of the unsuccessful RM from nearly four years ago, above, as well as a reflection of the just-concluded
Talk:Shooting of Atatiana Jefferson#Requested move 14 May 2020. Wikipedia main title headers have certain established forms and, while participants in
WP:WikiProject Death may wish to add their viewpoints, the standard titles, depending upon circumstances, are Murder of..., Killing of..., Shooting of... [both fatal and non-fatal], Assassination of..., Execution of..., Lynching of..., Suicide of... and Death of... [which includes historical events, such as
Death of Edgar Allan Poe]. The form depicted here — "Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxx homicide" — has not been used for other article headers. —
Roman Spinner
(talk •
contribs) 20:08, 25 May 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
Natg 19 (
talk) 03:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
For the longest time the name of the victim has comfortably modified "homicide" when that term has been used to describe a killing where there has been no murder or manslaughter trial. Daniel Case ( talk) 04:45, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
"Shooting of ..." seems to be preferred for cases where someone is shot by the police and there is a controversy over it.
And just because we have done it that way doesn't mean that it has always been right and in accordance with policy. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
"Shooting of" was as far as I know instituted around 2014 to deal with police-shooting articles because "murder of" in those cases was deemed too judgemental and POV (as it is in any case where there is no conviction and theoretically could be) I don't see why, in the U.S. context at least, "foo homicide" can't work for police killings as well, since the term is accurate in that case as well.
It seems like most American editors, at least, are OK with this; British editors have told me that to their ears the term sounds rather unfamiliar and distinctly American (although I have found that both the Crown Prosecution Service and the National Statistics Office are trying, slowly, to change that). Daniel Case ( talk) 21:22, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
One of my main problems with this is that not all unsolved homicides are shootings. Following this example, we'd have to go with, say, " Stabbing of Betsy Aardsma", " Strangulation of Susanne Lindholm" and so forth. Why fracture the titling scheme so much when there's one word that would serve the same purpose regardless of the manner of death and keep article titles shorter to boot? I do not and cannot accept "because we've always done it that way" as a valid reason, unless it's more honestly phrased as "because we're not tired of being lazy yet." Daniel Case ( talk) 18:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
My very valid objections to "murder of ..." in titles of articles about unsolved recent homicides notwithstanding, I am somewhat OK with its use in articles about cases old enough that it is unlikely that anyone who committed the crime is still alive to be charged and face trial ... I created and researched Murder of Pamela Werner under that title since it had happened 80 years ago, right before a devastating war that almost no one related to the case who wasn't British is known to have survived. Likewise the much older Gatton murders. And while I would still prefer the Aardsma case article be titled as a homicide, at least for now since the PSP are still investigating it, I went with Murder of Jane Britton, from almost the same time, since the police were able to link the DNA to a suspect who died in prison in 2002—it's de facto solved and we don't have to worry about impugning the innocence of a dead person.
I don't see what the fact that they were shot has to do with how we title articles ... unless, as you imply, we are doing so to make some sort of statement about gun violence in the United States. If that is, then it's POV and we should very much be avoiding that, however passionately we as individuals may feel about it.
Two questions then: 1) Would you use the "shooting of ..." form, or some variety, if we were to have standalone articles on, say, the deaths by accidental self-inflicted shooting of Terry Kath or Jon-Erik Hexum ("Accidental shooting of ..."?) 2) I have also created Suicide of Randy Potter, the only standalone article I've written about the suicide of a non-notable person, since it gained national notability when the police found his body in his car in an airport parking lot near his months after he'd been reported missing, an airport parking lot that supposedly checked and kept every license plate number on file every day. Since Potter had shot himself, should the article title thus reflect it? ("Suicide by shooting of ..."?)
Roman, really, your answer reads like you were more afraid of not getting the last word in than that you had anything substantial to say. Daniel Case ( talk) 17:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Killing of Lizzie O'Neill which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)