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A lot of this seems to be a direct copy-and-paste from the various sources by various editors, and thus it looks like some of the information is overlapping or redundant. Katr67 00:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The Sorraia type mare pictured is not typical. The information from Kiger Brand stating they were discovered in1971 is incorrect, it was 1977. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.54.212.155 ( talk) 18:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I know it's probably what the source says, but "claybank" IS red dun. Overall, the description of the color is probably what the source says, but they have no freaking clue how dun works genetically and it is described quite poorly. May want to mostly link to the dun article for descriptions and just discuss the basics plus the additional weird words they use (see what I did for the weird words at Fjord horse, where they call grullos "gray" ) ;-) Montanabw (talk) 18:55, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article clearly covers both a feral landrace called the Kiger Mustang (properly Kiger mustang - names of landraces, populations and types, vs. formal breeds, are not capitalized except where they contain a proper name), and a formal domestic breed (derived from feral specimens as the founding stock), called the Kiger Horse ( Kiger Mesteño depending on which breed registry you use). There are definitely enough sources on both to split this article into one on the breed and one on the feral landrace. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Finally, There is no WP:NOR problem here like WP:SYNTH, except in the other direction. Any geographically stable breeding population of domestic animal with some predictable traits is a landrace; that's just what the word means. In order for something to be a breed, which is a specific claim of fact, there have to be reliable sources that establish that it qualifies as one, through pedigree tracking. Everyone who professionally works on construction is a construction worker, but only persons with a particular license are general contractors. The fact that some sources use the word "breed" to include "landrace" because they don't understand the difference doesn't change this, it only means they're not reliable (on that point, at least, though the failure calls into question their reliability more generally). Likewise, if my neighbor says her son is a contractor but he's really some unlicensed construction worker, she's not a reliable source about her son's qualifications at least. Landraces do not have the formal, organizational imprimatur that comes with the term breed, because they're not subject to strictly pedigreed breeding programs.
"WPEQ reviewed that issue years ago" – What's the link to that discussion? I'd be curious to see what sources were looked at. And by now they're probably outdated if that was "years ago". Also, GA review is a very simplistic process that does not examine questions like this, only a narrow set of criteria. Because of the lack of proper categorization and even proper writing of landrace articles, it's unlikely that the GA process could have caught this and recommended a split back then. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This discussion is rapidly deteriorating into a series of inter-personal disputes, which, apart from being disruptive in itself, is likely to deter other potential contributors so there seems little to be gained by leaving this open. Despite the length of the discussion, only a handful of people have participated in the discussion, none of whom appear to agree with the opening statement. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
What are the proper scope and focus of this article?
Background: This article clearly covers, with reliable sources, both a feral landrace called the Kiger mustang (which some would capitalize as Kiger Mustang), and a formal, managed, non-feral breed (derived from feral specimens as the founding stock), called the Kiger horse or Kiger Mesteño (depending on which breed registry is consulted; the second appears to be a trademark, and so does Kiger Horse, capitalized like that). They could even represent distinct nascent breeds. There are at least 5 possible approaches to this question (enumerated below). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Obvious options:
Are there others? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
"A breed is a group of domestic animals, termed such by common consent of the breeders ... a term which arose among breeders of livestock, created, one might say, for their own use, and no one is warranted in assigning to this word a scientific definition and in calling the breeders wrong when they deviate from the formulated definition. It is their word and the breeders’ common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition". (Jay Lush, The Genetics of Populations, 1948)
"A domestic animal population may be regarded as a breed, if the animals fulfil the criteria of (i) being subjected to a common utilization pattern, (ii) sharing a common habitat/distribution area, (iii) representing largely a closed gene pool, and (iv) being regarded as distinct by their breeders". (Inge Köhler-Rollefson of the League for Pastoral Peoples, 1997)
I find both to be helpful in trying to understand what a breed is. My understanding is very different from McCandlish's. The Kiger Mustang is in my view incontrovertibly a breed by those definitions; that some members of it live in managed feral conditions and others in domestic conditions does not affect that in any way, any more than the strictures of the BLM over the use of the word "mustang". It's a type of management that is common in many breeds in many parts of the world; one I happen to know a little about is the Giara Horse in southern Sardinia, management of which is near-identical to that of this breed. The New Forest Pony is managed in much the same way, though not on a mountain; I believe that the Assateague Horse is also managed in a similar fashion. Is there a problem with the scope of those articles too?
If "landrace" is a useful concept at all (it isn't one I personally use), it presumably applies to long-established populations where uncontrolled breeding has taken place over many generations; if so, the term does not seem remotely applicable to any part of a population selected by DNA testing 37 years ago (assuming our article has that right?). Ealdgyth has offered one option 6 above, with a suggestion that I endorse. Another possibility that could be added to the list is "leave well alone". Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 01:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the problem here is that some people simply doesn't believe that the word "landrace" can/should be applied to horses, that "breed" can mean anything they want it to, and that "breed" somehow has some special imprimatur or cachet that must be "protected". That is a POV problem. "Breed" is not an honor or title, it's a technical term and it has definitions. WP has already settled at the article on that word on a definition of what it means in our context. It's narrower than some would like, but that's likely to be true of all such terms in all fields. I'm sure someone somewhere is pissed off that trucks above the size of pickups are not covered at or included within the working definition at Automobile. That article is a good model here - it acknowledges that wider definitions exist, then moves on, sticking with the more common, narrower one. We have to do this with Breed, too; the notion that we can have our article say, basically, that it means whatever a couple of breeders say it means, is absurd and unworkable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I do not have these books ... would want them checked for coverage also ...
"One mechanism for breed formation includes a landrace stage (Sponenberg and Christman, 1995)"[1]. See below for more from this source, demonstrating every point I'm making here about this article's scope. PS: The position you imply, that a landrace is only a stage of breed development, doesn't even make sense here, because we have reliable sources that both the formal breed(s) and the landrace both still exist. What you propose is physically impossible. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Falsifying sources is a hefty accusation. In fact Montana is not falsifying anything. She is saying that landrace is a stage in breed development and qualifies that with "here". SMc I am concerned about your accusations.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 12:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC))
Ironically, it's the source that Montanabw tried to rely on and misconstrue (see "None other than D. Phillip Sponenberg explains...", above), so it's certainly one that this editor was aware of, all the while saying there were no sources. Let's quote the source directly: "A few island populations are good examples of isolated landraces, including those of Shetland, Iceland, Greece and Indonesia. ... New World populations based on the Colonial Spanish horse also fit here. Landraces attain their uniformity (and, therefore, breed type and character) more by default than by design, being shaped by some rather arbitrary forces (founders, isolation, selection) rather than deliberate and unified breeding decisions of a breed association."
[1]
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)
Let's look this over:
The same sources continues: "Standardized breeds" [which Sponenberg uses synonymously with "deliberate and unified" breeds] are maintained and fostered more deliberately than are landraces. A standardized breed is generally forged by design rather than by default, with breeders striving to achieve some pre-conceived and formal notion of an ideal animal upon which group of breeders have agreed"
, and much else of direct application to this very article and its scope.
Interesting that, when I took a few minutes to look this up, I found it immediately, while those opposed (as of this writing) to the idea that there's even anything to discuss here have no sources at all for their view. Now, if people would like to stop pretending there's no difference between a landrace and formal breed, pretending that the former term can't apply to horses, and pretending that the term and the distinction aren't demonstrably relevant in this particular case, I would like to return to the question posted by the RfC: How should this article handle the complicated scope; there are several ways to approach it, enumerated above. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I didn't say we need two articles; there are at least 5 ways to approach this scope question. The most obvious and the simplest is to clearly treat the landrace and the formal breed(s) separately [in the same article], but I've been perpetually filibustered in my attempts to do it this "elegantly simple" way. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Someone tried to add updated material [1] but didn't do it very well; there might be a good web link or some salvagable data there, though, so parking for later. Montanabw (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 04:59, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Kiger Mustang → Kiger mustang – Per MOS:LIFE. WP does not capitalize any general animal type, population, or other grouping, with the (sometimes controversial and still uncodified) single exception of the names of standardized breeds. "Kiger mustang" is not one; it's just a term for a population of feral horses in a particular area. A particular standardized-breed effort has started with some specific horses from this population, and the purebred result is called Kiger Musteño, also covered in this article. That qualifies for capitalization, but is not the primary topic of the article, and not independently notable. After the move, the article text should be adjusted to use "Kiger mustang" throughout, like the main Mustang horse article and "mustang" in its text. — AReaderOutThataway t/ c 04:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 06:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
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A lot of this seems to be a direct copy-and-paste from the various sources by various editors, and thus it looks like some of the information is overlapping or redundant. Katr67 00:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The Sorraia type mare pictured is not typical. The information from Kiger Brand stating they were discovered in1971 is incorrect, it was 1977. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.54.212.155 ( talk) 18:08, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I know it's probably what the source says, but "claybank" IS red dun. Overall, the description of the color is probably what the source says, but they have no freaking clue how dun works genetically and it is described quite poorly. May want to mostly link to the dun article for descriptions and just discuss the basics plus the additional weird words they use (see what I did for the weird words at Fjord horse, where they call grullos "gray" ) ;-) Montanabw (talk) 18:55, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article clearly covers both a feral landrace called the Kiger Mustang (properly Kiger mustang - names of landraces, populations and types, vs. formal breeds, are not capitalized except where they contain a proper name), and a formal domestic breed (derived from feral specimens as the founding stock), called the Kiger Horse ( Kiger Mesteño depending on which breed registry you use). There are definitely enough sources on both to split this article into one on the breed and one on the feral landrace. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 18:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Finally, There is no WP:NOR problem here like WP:SYNTH, except in the other direction. Any geographically stable breeding population of domestic animal with some predictable traits is a landrace; that's just what the word means. In order for something to be a breed, which is a specific claim of fact, there have to be reliable sources that establish that it qualifies as one, through pedigree tracking. Everyone who professionally works on construction is a construction worker, but only persons with a particular license are general contractors. The fact that some sources use the word "breed" to include "landrace" because they don't understand the difference doesn't change this, it only means they're not reliable (on that point, at least, though the failure calls into question their reliability more generally). Likewise, if my neighbor says her son is a contractor but he's really some unlicensed construction worker, she's not a reliable source about her son's qualifications at least. Landraces do not have the formal, organizational imprimatur that comes with the term breed, because they're not subject to strictly pedigreed breeding programs.
"WPEQ reviewed that issue years ago" – What's the link to that discussion? I'd be curious to see what sources were looked at. And by now they're probably outdated if that was "years ago". Also, GA review is a very simplistic process that does not examine questions like this, only a narrow set of criteria. Because of the lack of proper categorization and even proper writing of landrace articles, it's unlikely that the GA process could have caught this and recommended a split back then. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This discussion is rapidly deteriorating into a series of inter-personal disputes, which, apart from being disruptive in itself, is likely to deter other potential contributors so there seems little to be gained by leaving this open. Despite the length of the discussion, only a handful of people have participated in the discussion, none of whom appear to agree with the opening statement. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
What are the proper scope and focus of this article?
Background: This article clearly covers, with reliable sources, both a feral landrace called the Kiger mustang (which some would capitalize as Kiger Mustang), and a formal, managed, non-feral breed (derived from feral specimens as the founding stock), called the Kiger horse or Kiger Mesteño (depending on which breed registry is consulted; the second appears to be a trademark, and so does Kiger Horse, capitalized like that). They could even represent distinct nascent breeds. There are at least 5 possible approaches to this question (enumerated below). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Obvious options:
Are there others? — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
"A breed is a group of domestic animals, termed such by common consent of the breeders ... a term which arose among breeders of livestock, created, one might say, for their own use, and no one is warranted in assigning to this word a scientific definition and in calling the breeders wrong when they deviate from the formulated definition. It is their word and the breeders’ common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition". (Jay Lush, The Genetics of Populations, 1948)
"A domestic animal population may be regarded as a breed, if the animals fulfil the criteria of (i) being subjected to a common utilization pattern, (ii) sharing a common habitat/distribution area, (iii) representing largely a closed gene pool, and (iv) being regarded as distinct by their breeders". (Inge Köhler-Rollefson of the League for Pastoral Peoples, 1997)
I find both to be helpful in trying to understand what a breed is. My understanding is very different from McCandlish's. The Kiger Mustang is in my view incontrovertibly a breed by those definitions; that some members of it live in managed feral conditions and others in domestic conditions does not affect that in any way, any more than the strictures of the BLM over the use of the word "mustang". It's a type of management that is common in many breeds in many parts of the world; one I happen to know a little about is the Giara Horse in southern Sardinia, management of which is near-identical to that of this breed. The New Forest Pony is managed in much the same way, though not on a mountain; I believe that the Assateague Horse is also managed in a similar fashion. Is there a problem with the scope of those articles too?
If "landrace" is a useful concept at all (it isn't one I personally use), it presumably applies to long-established populations where uncontrolled breeding has taken place over many generations; if so, the term does not seem remotely applicable to any part of a population selected by DNA testing 37 years ago (assuming our article has that right?). Ealdgyth has offered one option 6 above, with a suggestion that I endorse. Another possibility that could be added to the list is "leave well alone". Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 01:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the problem here is that some people simply doesn't believe that the word "landrace" can/should be applied to horses, that "breed" can mean anything they want it to, and that "breed" somehow has some special imprimatur or cachet that must be "protected". That is a POV problem. "Breed" is not an honor or title, it's a technical term and it has definitions. WP has already settled at the article on that word on a definition of what it means in our context. It's narrower than some would like, but that's likely to be true of all such terms in all fields. I'm sure someone somewhere is pissed off that trucks above the size of pickups are not covered at or included within the working definition at Automobile. That article is a good model here - it acknowledges that wider definitions exist, then moves on, sticking with the more common, narrower one. We have to do this with Breed, too; the notion that we can have our article say, basically, that it means whatever a couple of breeders say it means, is absurd and unworkable. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I do not have these books ... would want them checked for coverage also ...
"One mechanism for breed formation includes a landrace stage (Sponenberg and Christman, 1995)"[1]. See below for more from this source, demonstrating every point I'm making here about this article's scope. PS: The position you imply, that a landrace is only a stage of breed development, doesn't even make sense here, because we have reliable sources that both the formal breed(s) and the landrace both still exist. What you propose is physically impossible. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Falsifying sources is a hefty accusation. In fact Montana is not falsifying anything. She is saying that landrace is a stage in breed development and qualifies that with "here". SMc I am concerned about your accusations.( Littleolive oil ( talk) 12:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC))
Ironically, it's the source that Montanabw tried to rely on and misconstrue (see "None other than D. Phillip Sponenberg explains...", above), so it's certainly one that this editor was aware of, all the while saying there were no sources. Let's quote the source directly: "A few island populations are good examples of isolated landraces, including those of Shetland, Iceland, Greece and Indonesia. ... New World populations based on the Colonial Spanish horse also fit here. Landraces attain their uniformity (and, therefore, breed type and character) more by default than by design, being shaped by some rather arbitrary forces (founders, isolation, selection) rather than deliberate and unified breeding decisions of a breed association."
[1]
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |editors=
ignored (|editor=
suggested) (
help)
Let's look this over:
The same sources continues: "Standardized breeds" [which Sponenberg uses synonymously with "deliberate and unified" breeds] are maintained and fostered more deliberately than are landraces. A standardized breed is generally forged by design rather than by default, with breeders striving to achieve some pre-conceived and formal notion of an ideal animal upon which group of breeders have agreed"
, and much else of direct application to this very article and its scope.
Interesting that, when I took a few minutes to look this up, I found it immediately, while those opposed (as of this writing) to the idea that there's even anything to discuss here have no sources at all for their view. Now, if people would like to stop pretending there's no difference between a landrace and formal breed, pretending that the former term can't apply to horses, and pretending that the term and the distinction aren't demonstrably relevant in this particular case, I would like to return to the question posted by the RfC: How should this article handle the complicated scope; there are several ways to approach it, enumerated above. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:48, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
( edit conflict) I didn't say we need two articles; there are at least 5 ways to approach this scope question. The most obvious and the simplest is to clearly treat the landrace and the formal breed(s) separately [in the same article], but I've been perpetually filibustered in my attempts to do it this "elegantly simple" way. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Someone tried to add updated material [1] but didn't do it very well; there might be a good web link or some salvagable data there, though, so parking for later. Montanabw (talk) 08:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
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Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 04:59, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Kiger Mustang → Kiger mustang – Per MOS:LIFE. WP does not capitalize any general animal type, population, or other grouping, with the (sometimes controversial and still uncodified) single exception of the names of standardized breeds. "Kiger mustang" is not one; it's just a term for a population of feral horses in a particular area. A particular standardized-breed effort has started with some specific horses from this population, and the purebred result is called Kiger Musteño, also covered in this article. That qualifies for capitalization, but is not the primary topic of the article, and not independently notable. After the move, the article text should be adjusted to use "Kiger mustang" throughout, like the main Mustang horse article and "mustang" in its text. — AReaderOutThataway t/ c 04:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 06:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)