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Kidney failure article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Np2021, David 21, Szarnke, Nsayed2, WikiTweeks11, Dkrishnan97. Peer reviewers: Np2021, David 21.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article refers to "African-American" as a "race" which it is not.
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
63.240.201.51 (
talk)
19:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
I agree African-American is totally inapropraite in this context. It implies that it only applies to black Americans and not Africans or black Europeans or Caribeans or any other person that can trace their recent heritage to Africa.
Given some of the discussion that has occurred below (see 'split'), it would be interesting to create a 'renal failure' article that covers the following issues (that have been suggested as being worthy of consideration below) :
i)Symptoms of the 2 given forms of renal failure.
ii)(Dialysis) treatments
iii)Prognosis.
iv)Etiology (the causes of diseases and pathologies – in this case, the cause of renal failure).
There are, I am sure, several other headlines that it is worth making a note of on the article, but the above would suffice as a first try. An interesting point that I have been thinking about concerns metal poisoning and how this may result in renal failure, though I can imagine that renal failure (of both types) has many varied causes. Does anyone know about any 'flow charts' or 'flow diagrams' that show how it is that symptoms can be used to determine if someone suffers from renal failure (and, possibly, an etiology flow chart that could show how various causes of renal failure actually induce renal failure). This would be much effort, but I can imagine that such information is online somewhere (I will post it here if possible).
Renalsfailure 20:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent 20 minutes on google trying to find urine productions figures that match "0.5 mL" for children, but the few numbers I came across weren't specific to children and were approximate to eachother. I don't remember peeing that much more when I was a kid than now, perhaps it was a typo and meant "500 mL" or "0.5 dL", however I do not feel qualified to do anything but bring this to people's attention, hoping someone with some real knowledge (or at least the knowledge of where to find the answer) will chime in. Half a cubic centimeter of urine just seems, well, low. Hope I did this talk page thing right. - Jay Straw (thisiswherejunkgoes@gmail.com) @ 12:22 AM US-EST 9 Sept 2006 Over and out
This page deserves to become a disambig with seperate pages dealing with acute renal failure and chronic renal failure. They are so different that they can't possibly be dealt with in one article! JFW | T@lk 10:51, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Peter, perhaps you are under the impression that all forms of renal failure should be lumped on one page because both are due to dysfunctioning of the kidneys. This is completely untrue. The causes are completely different, the symptoms are different, the treatment is different and the underlying mechanism is different. ARF is usually due to low blood pressure or sudden damage, it presents with cessation of urine output, is rarely treated with dialysis and is usually due to acute tubular necrosis. CRF, in contrast, is usually due to progressive damage to the glomeruli, is rarely oliguric, and is the main indication for dialysis.
Please do not make such sweeping changes without discussing them. It's like putting Ford and Mitsubishi on the same page because they both manufacture cars. The size of the respective articles is utterly irrelevant. JFW | T@lk 14:27, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, I find your approach offensive. You say We're a general encyclopedia, not academic literature for med students. Will you please go ahead and merge all those esoteric LGBT articles that have proliferated into the thousands? Will you also go and VFD all those academic mathematics pages, because they fall outside of what you consider the scope for a general encyclopedia?
Wikipedia is not academic literature for med students, but it is supposed to reflect the state of the art in medicine. Ask any doctor (e.g. on WikiProject Clinical medicine) - all will inform you that ARF and CRF are completely disparate and that it would be wrong to cast the impression that they are very similar.
Then about the size. Wikipedia is rife with stubs that are easily merged, yet are kept on seperate pages because they are different subjects.
I hope you understand. Please accept that there are some things you don't know much about [1], and trust people with a bit of expertise to make the relevant distinctions. My approach now has consensus, with Nephron kindly weighing in. JFW | T@lk 11:35, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, here we go again. I did not accuse you of being insulting to the medical profession. You downplayed two important topics as "academic literature for med students". That is insulting to your readers, who may just have learnt they have a GFR 10 ml/min and will need dialysis very soon, and are not served by having to wade through stuff about acute renal failure.
You seem to confuse article length with notability. Just because these two subjects have pages that are admittedly too short, that does not mean they should be artificially lumped together. When it comes to the decision to merge mathematics articles, you ask a mathematician whether these articles are conceptually similar. The same applies over here. You are perpetuating an argument that really has no base at all, and you seem to have difficulty conceding. It is not "a matter of article length and disambiguation", and I think it is your pushiness that is disproportionate. We'll talk about the dishonesty sometime later. JFW | T@lk 08:02, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm allowed to say what I think of your approach. I am not calling you offensive (that would be incivil).
== This article refers to "African-American" as a "race" which it is not.
what are some symptoms and when do they occur?
I'm wondering about the statement:However, serum creatinine levels are also affected by the patient's existing muscle mass, which varies with age, sex, and race. For instance, younger patients, male patients, and African descended patients typically have higher muscle mass, while certain disease states, such as liver failure, lead to a decrease in muscle mass. Therefore, neglecting to account for high muscle mass may lead to a false suspicion of kidney failure; conversely, neglecting to account for low muscle mass may lead to a missed diagnosis in which the creatinine from kidney failure has actually brought the total creatinine back into the "normal" range. I was under the impression that this would be more appropriate a statement about the interpretation of eGFR. Do american doctors use creatinine like eGFR? If not I think that woould be better put in that page. We were taught that creatinine is a guide and can only be compared to itself (unless it is tremendously high) and the best differentiator for acute and chronic renal failure is still history (and U/S), or so says Bill our Nephrologist with the sticky up hair. Markjohndaley 17:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC) I have breifly read some of the articles and comments. I'm not sure if it's the people that are taking the medications or maybe some of their children. Anyway i'm on the medication and i'm now getting off of it slowly, because i've developed a severe rash around my neck. i think that the medication is the cause of it. alone with the fact that i'm highly allergic to alot of things, but medication is not one of them. not that i know of yet. can anyone tell me if there have been any report of this kind of side effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.85.124 ( talk) 07:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The flowchart near the top of the page is very helpful in elucidating the many confusing subcategories of renal failure! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.145.61 ( talk) 02:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here know of anybody who died of kidney failure (apart from Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart)? -- 121.7.203.206 ( talk) 08:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.77.84 ( talk) 04:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm very confused why this article might have become a victim of an organised vandalism attack from numerous IPs. JFW | T@lk 03:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I understand how weight loss can be a symptom of any severe illness especially associated with an organ failure, but isn't increase of weight caused by edemas more common in renal failure than weight loss?
Also in a lot of cases: kidney disease that causes insufficient blood flow in kidneys (even if blood pressure is normal in the whole body) -> kidneys secrete renin -> blood flow in the kidneys barely gets any better because the capillaries are damaged -> even more renin -> high blood pressure
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.56.165.74 ( talk) 09:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
The article uses the terms renal failure and renal insufficiency as synonyms, which I do not agree with. Renal insufficiency is due to reduced blood flow to the kidneys resulting in a decrease in urine production, increased plasma volume and resultant increase in blood pressure. Renal failure is what this article discusses. Kidney damage resulting in a decreased ability to concentrate urine. Urine produced due to renal failure is dilute (isotonic) and excreted in vast amounts (polyuria). Recommend references to "renal insufficiency" be removed from this article and a new article regarding renal insufficiency be created at some point. Sumostorm ( talk) 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, we are a group of medical students editing this page as part of a class assignment. We have compiled a list of suggestions to improve this article and would appreciate community feedback before we proceed with these edits. Here is a list of our suggestions:
We propose to insert the following content into the Kidney Failure#treatment section:
1) Prevention of Progression to End-Stage Renal Disease (ESRD)
"A 2014 review of forty studies concluded that people who received early referrals (one to six months before the start of dialysis) to a nephrology specialist displayed reduced mortality, better uptake of dialysis, and reduced hospitalization. [1] The authors highlighted the resulting importance of early referral in preventing progression to ESRD. [1] "
"Other methods of reducing a person’s progression to ESRD include minimizing their exposure to nephrotoxins such as NSAIDS and intravenous contrast. [2]
“In non-diabetics and people with type 1 diabetes, a limited protein diet is found to have a preventative effect on progression to ESRD. However, this effect does not apply to people with type 2 diabetes. [3] "
Nsayed2 ( talk) 15:17, 15 November 2017 (UTC)Thank you for the feedback. We have made the changes to number 1 and will go live with it shortly.
2) Dialysis
"Dialysis is currently used to extend the lives of hundreds of thousands of patients with ESRD. [4] AKI typically does not require dialysis except when there is pre-existing CKD. [5] Currently, there are no studies which have compared the outcomes of hemodialysis to peritoneal dialysis. However, based on reporting, both forms of dialysis appear to be equally effective. [4] The choice of therapy may be selected based upon considerations of patient preference and quality of life. [4]"
3) Transplantation
"Kidney transplantation is a primary treatment option for advanced chronic kidney failure. [6] The 1-year survival rate for patients who receive a kidney from a living donor (living-donor graft) is 96%, while the 1-year survival rate for patients who receive a kidney from a deceased donor (deceased-donor graft) is 92%. [6]"
4) Treatment for AKI
“The treatment of AKI comprises varying possibilities, depending on individual cases, and includes diuretics, nutritional support, and dialysis. Overall, its primary goal is to hasten recovery and minimize complications and progression of the disease. [7]"
Thank you very much for your time and we appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have!
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: PMC format (
link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
WikiTweeks11 ( talk) 02:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Nsayed2 ( talk) 15:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC) Thank you for the feedback David notMD. We have made changes to the first part of our suggested changes and are going live with it. We will make revisions to the other parts in the coming days.
The above two entities are completely different: this article covers the two entities resulting in failure. It should not address chronic kidney disease, which has 5 stages, 4 of which are not kidney failure, but impaired kidney function. Thus my edits changing "disease" to "failure". IiKkEe ( talk) 15:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
There is some recent literature on the relationships between kidney failure, heat stress, and climate change, for instance:
This is certainly not my area, so I am just flagging the issue for others more qualified to consider. With best wishes, RobbieIanMorrison ( talk) 19:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
It sounds like kid named finger Fanumstein 09 ( talk) 19:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I am merging the renal failure index article here without discussion as it seems uncontroversial to me. Darcyisverycute ( talk) 04:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kidney failure article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically
review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Kidney failure.
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Np2021, David 21, Szarnke, Nsayed2, WikiTweeks11, Dkrishnan97. Peer reviewers: Np2021, David 21.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 01:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article refers to "African-American" as a "race" which it is not.
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
63.240.201.51 (
talk)
19:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
I agree African-American is totally inapropraite in this context. It implies that it only applies to black Americans and not Africans or black Europeans or Caribeans or any other person that can trace their recent heritage to Africa.
Given some of the discussion that has occurred below (see 'split'), it would be interesting to create a 'renal failure' article that covers the following issues (that have been suggested as being worthy of consideration below) :
i)Symptoms of the 2 given forms of renal failure.
ii)(Dialysis) treatments
iii)Prognosis.
iv)Etiology (the causes of diseases and pathologies – in this case, the cause of renal failure).
There are, I am sure, several other headlines that it is worth making a note of on the article, but the above would suffice as a first try. An interesting point that I have been thinking about concerns metal poisoning and how this may result in renal failure, though I can imagine that renal failure (of both types) has many varied causes. Does anyone know about any 'flow charts' or 'flow diagrams' that show how it is that symptoms can be used to determine if someone suffers from renal failure (and, possibly, an etiology flow chart that could show how various causes of renal failure actually induce renal failure). This would be much effort, but I can imagine that such information is online somewhere (I will post it here if possible).
Renalsfailure 20:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I just spent 20 minutes on google trying to find urine productions figures that match "0.5 mL" for children, but the few numbers I came across weren't specific to children and were approximate to eachother. I don't remember peeing that much more when I was a kid than now, perhaps it was a typo and meant "500 mL" or "0.5 dL", however I do not feel qualified to do anything but bring this to people's attention, hoping someone with some real knowledge (or at least the knowledge of where to find the answer) will chime in. Half a cubic centimeter of urine just seems, well, low. Hope I did this talk page thing right. - Jay Straw (thisiswherejunkgoes@gmail.com) @ 12:22 AM US-EST 9 Sept 2006 Over and out
This page deserves to become a disambig with seperate pages dealing with acute renal failure and chronic renal failure. They are so different that they can't possibly be dealt with in one article! JFW | T@lk 10:51, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Peter, perhaps you are under the impression that all forms of renal failure should be lumped on one page because both are due to dysfunctioning of the kidneys. This is completely untrue. The causes are completely different, the symptoms are different, the treatment is different and the underlying mechanism is different. ARF is usually due to low blood pressure or sudden damage, it presents with cessation of urine output, is rarely treated with dialysis and is usually due to acute tubular necrosis. CRF, in contrast, is usually due to progressive damage to the glomeruli, is rarely oliguric, and is the main indication for dialysis.
Please do not make such sweeping changes without discussing them. It's like putting Ford and Mitsubishi on the same page because they both manufacture cars. The size of the respective articles is utterly irrelevant. JFW | T@lk 14:27, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, I find your approach offensive. You say We're a general encyclopedia, not academic literature for med students. Will you please go ahead and merge all those esoteric LGBT articles that have proliferated into the thousands? Will you also go and VFD all those academic mathematics pages, because they fall outside of what you consider the scope for a general encyclopedia?
Wikipedia is not academic literature for med students, but it is supposed to reflect the state of the art in medicine. Ask any doctor (e.g. on WikiProject Clinical medicine) - all will inform you that ARF and CRF are completely disparate and that it would be wrong to cast the impression that they are very similar.
Then about the size. Wikipedia is rife with stubs that are easily merged, yet are kept on seperate pages because they are different subjects.
I hope you understand. Please accept that there are some things you don't know much about [1], and trust people with a bit of expertise to make the relevant distinctions. My approach now has consensus, with Nephron kindly weighing in. JFW | T@lk 11:35, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
OK, here we go again. I did not accuse you of being insulting to the medical profession. You downplayed two important topics as "academic literature for med students". That is insulting to your readers, who may just have learnt they have a GFR 10 ml/min and will need dialysis very soon, and are not served by having to wade through stuff about acute renal failure.
You seem to confuse article length with notability. Just because these two subjects have pages that are admittedly too short, that does not mean they should be artificially lumped together. When it comes to the decision to merge mathematics articles, you ask a mathematician whether these articles are conceptually similar. The same applies over here. You are perpetuating an argument that really has no base at all, and you seem to have difficulty conceding. It is not "a matter of article length and disambiguation", and I think it is your pushiness that is disproportionate. We'll talk about the dishonesty sometime later. JFW | T@lk 08:02, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm allowed to say what I think of your approach. I am not calling you offensive (that would be incivil).
== This article refers to "African-American" as a "race" which it is not.
what are some symptoms and when do they occur?
I'm wondering about the statement:However, serum creatinine levels are also affected by the patient's existing muscle mass, which varies with age, sex, and race. For instance, younger patients, male patients, and African descended patients typically have higher muscle mass, while certain disease states, such as liver failure, lead to a decrease in muscle mass. Therefore, neglecting to account for high muscle mass may lead to a false suspicion of kidney failure; conversely, neglecting to account for low muscle mass may lead to a missed diagnosis in which the creatinine from kidney failure has actually brought the total creatinine back into the "normal" range. I was under the impression that this would be more appropriate a statement about the interpretation of eGFR. Do american doctors use creatinine like eGFR? If not I think that woould be better put in that page. We were taught that creatinine is a guide and can only be compared to itself (unless it is tremendously high) and the best differentiator for acute and chronic renal failure is still history (and U/S), or so says Bill our Nephrologist with the sticky up hair. Markjohndaley 17:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC) I have breifly read some of the articles and comments. I'm not sure if it's the people that are taking the medications or maybe some of their children. Anyway i'm on the medication and i'm now getting off of it slowly, because i've developed a severe rash around my neck. i think that the medication is the cause of it. alone with the fact that i'm highly allergic to alot of things, but medication is not one of them. not that i know of yet. can anyone tell me if there have been any report of this kind of side effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.85.124 ( talk) 07:14, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The flowchart near the top of the page is very helpful in elucidating the many confusing subcategories of renal failure! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.145.61 ( talk) 02:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone here know of anybody who died of kidney failure (apart from Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart)? -- 121.7.203.206 ( talk) 08:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.77.84 ( talk) 04:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm very confused why this article might have become a victim of an organised vandalism attack from numerous IPs. JFW | T@lk 03:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I understand how weight loss can be a symptom of any severe illness especially associated with an organ failure, but isn't increase of weight caused by edemas more common in renal failure than weight loss?
Also in a lot of cases: kidney disease that causes insufficient blood flow in kidneys (even if blood pressure is normal in the whole body) -> kidneys secrete renin -> blood flow in the kidneys barely gets any better because the capillaries are damaged -> even more renin -> high blood pressure
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.56.165.74 ( talk) 09:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
The article uses the terms renal failure and renal insufficiency as synonyms, which I do not agree with. Renal insufficiency is due to reduced blood flow to the kidneys resulting in a decrease in urine production, increased plasma volume and resultant increase in blood pressure. Renal failure is what this article discusses. Kidney damage resulting in a decreased ability to concentrate urine. Urine produced due to renal failure is dilute (isotonic) and excreted in vast amounts (polyuria). Recommend references to "renal insufficiency" be removed from this article and a new article regarding renal insufficiency be created at some point. Sumostorm ( talk) 18:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, we are a group of medical students editing this page as part of a class assignment. We have compiled a list of suggestions to improve this article and would appreciate community feedback before we proceed with these edits. Here is a list of our suggestions:
We propose to insert the following content into the Kidney Failure#treatment section:
1) Prevention of Progression to End-Stage Renal Disease (ESRD)
"A 2014 review of forty studies concluded that people who received early referrals (one to six months before the start of dialysis) to a nephrology specialist displayed reduced mortality, better uptake of dialysis, and reduced hospitalization. [1] The authors highlighted the resulting importance of early referral in preventing progression to ESRD. [1] "
"Other methods of reducing a person’s progression to ESRD include minimizing their exposure to nephrotoxins such as NSAIDS and intravenous contrast. [2]
“In non-diabetics and people with type 1 diabetes, a limited protein diet is found to have a preventative effect on progression to ESRD. However, this effect does not apply to people with type 2 diabetes. [3] "
Nsayed2 ( talk) 15:17, 15 November 2017 (UTC)Thank you for the feedback. We have made the changes to number 1 and will go live with it shortly.
2) Dialysis
"Dialysis is currently used to extend the lives of hundreds of thousands of patients with ESRD. [4] AKI typically does not require dialysis except when there is pre-existing CKD. [5] Currently, there are no studies which have compared the outcomes of hemodialysis to peritoneal dialysis. However, based on reporting, both forms of dialysis appear to be equally effective. [4] The choice of therapy may be selected based upon considerations of patient preference and quality of life. [4]"
3) Transplantation
"Kidney transplantation is a primary treatment option for advanced chronic kidney failure. [6] The 1-year survival rate for patients who receive a kidney from a living donor (living-donor graft) is 96%, while the 1-year survival rate for patients who receive a kidney from a deceased donor (deceased-donor graft) is 92%. [6]"
4) Treatment for AKI
“The treatment of AKI comprises varying possibilities, depending on individual cases, and includes diuretics, nutritional support, and dialysis. Overall, its primary goal is to hasten recovery and minimize complications and progression of the disease. [7]"
Thank you very much for your time and we appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have!
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: PMC format (
link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)
WikiTweeks11 ( talk) 02:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Nsayed2 ( talk) 15:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC) Thank you for the feedback David notMD. We have made changes to the first part of our suggested changes and are going live with it. We will make revisions to the other parts in the coming days.
The above two entities are completely different: this article covers the two entities resulting in failure. It should not address chronic kidney disease, which has 5 stages, 4 of which are not kidney failure, but impaired kidney function. Thus my edits changing "disease" to "failure". IiKkEe ( talk) 15:51, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
There is some recent literature on the relationships between kidney failure, heat stress, and climate change, for instance:
This is certainly not my area, so I am just flagging the issue for others more qualified to consider. With best wishes, RobbieIanMorrison ( talk) 19:59, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
It sounds like kid named finger Fanumstein 09 ( talk) 19:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I am merging the renal failure index article here without discussion as it seems uncontroversial to me. Darcyisverycute ( talk) 04:50, 4 December 2023 (UTC)