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Should the article lead state that the Khalistan movement is active/resurgence of Khalistan Movement. -- DBig Xray 10:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Version 1 : Oppose (No Resurgence of Khalistan Movement)
In early 2018, some militant groups were arrested by police in Punjab. [1] Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh claimed the recent extremism is backed by Pakistan's ISI and "Khalistani sympathisers" in Canada, Italy, and the UK. [2] There is some support from fringe groups [3] [4] abroad, especially in Canada but the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has declared that his country would not support the revival of the separatist movement. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
ReferencesReferences
- ^ "New brand of Sikh militancy: Suave, tech-savvy pro-Khalistan youth radicalised on social media". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 27 April 2018.
- ^ Majumdar, Ushinor. "Sikh Extremists In Canada, The UK And Italy Are Working With ISI Or Independently". Outlook India, Is there a resurgence of Khalistani extremism, considering the number of recent incidents and killings? A. There has been no resurgence. Amarinder Singh Indian Punjab Chief Minister. Retrieved 8 June 2018.
{{ cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|website=
( help)- ^ "Khalistanis in Canada try to stoke the embers of a dying fire". despite its name, has links to the fringe, militant radicalism of the Khalistan movement. 7 June 2017.
- ^ Richard J. Leitner,, Peter M. Leitner. "Fringe"+Khalistan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhuv7elI3cAhUSf30KHQwNDtQQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q="Fringe"%20Khalistan&f=false Unheeded Warnings: The Lost Reports of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare Volume 1: Islamic Terrorism and the West. p. 157.
{{ cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation ( link)- ^ "India gives Trudeau list of suspected Sikh separatists in Canada". Reuters, The Sikh insurgency petered out in the 1990s. He told state leaders his country would not support anyone trying to reignite the movement for an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan. Retrieved 22 May 2018.
{{ cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|website=
( help)- ^ Mike Rana. A Citizen's Manifesto: A Ray of Hope. p. 60.
- ^ Lewis, James R. Violence and New Religious Movements. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 331. Retrieved 10 June 2018.
{{ cite book}}
:|work=
ignored ( help)- ^ "'Thrusting Khalistan on the Sikhs?'". the radical Khalistani fringe wanted it do. Anyone who knows something about the Sikhs will tell you that 99% of them are proud of both their community and country. Hindustan Times. 9 March 2018.
- ^ "Most Punjabis in Canada don't support Khalistan: Expert". An impression created by fringe groups in Canada — virtually a second Punjab for the Sikh community — that the country is a “bastion for Khalistanis” is incorrect, a Canadian expert, who. 8 April 2018.
Version 2 : Support (Movement is active. Not arguing for resurgence)
Since 2017 Punjab police have arrested a number of separatist Referendum 2020 campaign supporters [1] [2] and militants. [3] [4] Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh claims the movement's activity is backed by Pakistan's ISI, as well as Khalistan supporters in Canada, Italy, and the UK. [5]
The movement is currently active in India and the Sikh diaspora, with yearly demonstrations in protest of those killed during Operation Blue Star. [6] [7] [8]
.
Given the differences between our RfC versions, I am arguing for two things:
Here are the facts:
I came across this movement when another user attempted to remove it from the List of active separatist movements in Asia. I think it's clear the Khalistan movement is active and belongs in that list. I'm not arguing there is a "resurgence". That implies more than I really care to argue about. Just that it's active.
The group is mainly focused on Punjab, India. Some of the government's response to this group is concerning. Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh said "Freedom of speech was enshrined in the Indian Constitution but separatists and hardliners and those propagating violence had lost any such right as they were rejected outright by the people of Punjab" [12] His crackdown on Khalistan supporters is widespread. The Hindustan Times explains, "Police teams also conducted raids to nab more 'Punjab-based Khalistani activists', who allegedly assisted in spreading SFJ’s campaign whose full title is ‘Punjab Independence Referendum 2020’. Raids are being conducted in Haryana and J&K too." [13] India's censor board also banned "Toofan Singh", which portrays this movement in a positive light. [14]
There is currently a lot of propaganda at work in India. I believe it's paying off with the edits I've seen here.
Unlike DBigXray's proposal, I think you'll find my proposal fair and based in fact. There are some militant aspects to this group. I fairly represent that. But I find it interesting that DBigXray's version doesn't mention the arrests of peaceful protestors. Some books reported this group faded a bit in the 1990s. I am not asking to remove that, but DBigXray believes these books reporting on events in the 1990s apply to the group today. Just look over the list I provided above. Do you think the movement is active?
All I ask that you take the facts in yourself and decide fairly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elephanthunter ( talk • contribs)
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Some Major milestones/Claims (As context for new editors)
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cite news}}
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(
help) Canadian PM-- DBig Xray 10:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
The reuters article only mentions the word "fringe" when quoting Indian government sources. Is there any independent source that states that all groups that are sympathetic to the movement are fringe groups? If so I find no problem with either option. If not I'm okay with the first one minus "fringe". I see no problems with the second one. RadicallyNeutral ( talk) 12:52, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
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Feb 2018: India states that there is no resurgenceand
Canada states that it will not allow anyone to reignite the Khalistan movement-- okay, so the Indian government is one, nope, obvious COI there, and ironically Canada saying it will not "allow anyone to reignite the Khalistan movement"... implies that the threat is present enough to be considered. "Resurgence" I don't really care but you can't go around calling the movement fringe and pretending it doesn't really exist any more. If there are protests that India has to resort to force to suppressing, yes, it exists and is quite relevant. -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:47, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Comment DBigXRay has invoked this RfC's result as having bearing on the page
List of active separatist movements in Asia [
[7]]. This means that in order for side "Oppose" to gain the consensus, either it must be clarified that this RfC does not have bearing on that page, or that page's criterion for inclusion must have bearing on this debate. In particular this means that side "Oppose" needs to demonstrate that the movement does not have any recent activity at all, and furthermore, that autonomist movements (like one potentially calling for a Sikh entity within India) are also considered separatist, as per the paradigm used on that page and its sister pages which allow hte presence of movements like
Wessex separatism.--
Calthinus (
talk)
21:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Gazoth: First off, thank you for your response Gazoth. You have some valid criticisms. The 1990s decline of support is acknowledged in the lede, in the sentence immediately preceding what we are changing. To the reader, decline should be clear, but perhaps too much so. My lede counters a potential reader interpretation that decline means "inactive" by referencing the annual protests on Operation Blue Star. In the second half of your comment, you reference my three citations for resurgence. You have a point, those are valid interpretations of the source content. My argument for resurgence was not a core argument though. If that section was absent, what do you think of the other sections (police activity, terrorist warnings, etc)? Again, thank you for replying. As far as opposing arguments go, this is one of the more refreshing ones. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 23:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Tune into London Declaration on August 12th, 2018, if you are still not convinced then wait for Punjab Referendum 2020. Punjabis are either free or rebels. Khalistan Zindabad! 69.176.128.145 ( talk) 09:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
References
-- DBig Xray 11:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
The reference to "UNPO Official website". UNPO. Retrieved 26 May 2015. refers to this page as shown on the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20150526154223/http://unpo.org/article/2244
That page is about the Oromo of Ethiopia. It has nothing to do with Khalistan.
Unless a correct reference is provided, this information should be removed.
1.127.107.155 ( talk) 20:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Khalistan movement has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
222.100.126.78 ( talk) 23:32, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the article lead state that the Khalistan movement is active/resurgence of Khalistan Movement. -- DBig Xray 10:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Version 1 : Oppose (No Resurgence of Khalistan Movement)
In early 2018, some militant groups were arrested by police in Punjab. [1] Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh claimed the recent extremism is backed by Pakistan's ISI and "Khalistani sympathisers" in Canada, Italy, and the UK. [2] There is some support from fringe groups [3] [4] abroad, especially in Canada but the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has declared that his country would not support the revival of the separatist movement. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
ReferencesReferences
- ^ "New brand of Sikh militancy: Suave, tech-savvy pro-Khalistan youth radicalised on social media". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 27 April 2018.
- ^ Majumdar, Ushinor. "Sikh Extremists In Canada, The UK And Italy Are Working With ISI Or Independently". Outlook India, Is there a resurgence of Khalistani extremism, considering the number of recent incidents and killings? A. There has been no resurgence. Amarinder Singh Indian Punjab Chief Minister. Retrieved 8 June 2018.
{{ cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|website=
( help)- ^ "Khalistanis in Canada try to stoke the embers of a dying fire". despite its name, has links to the fringe, militant radicalism of the Khalistan movement. 7 June 2017.
- ^ Richard J. Leitner,, Peter M. Leitner. "Fringe"+Khalistan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhuv7elI3cAhUSf30KHQwNDtQQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q="Fringe"%20Khalistan&f=false Unheeded Warnings: The Lost Reports of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare Volume 1: Islamic Terrorism and the West. p. 157.
{{ cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation ( link)- ^ "India gives Trudeau list of suspected Sikh separatists in Canada". Reuters, The Sikh insurgency petered out in the 1990s. He told state leaders his country would not support anyone trying to reignite the movement for an independent Sikh homeland called Khalistan. Retrieved 22 May 2018.
{{ cite web}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in:|website=
( help)- ^ Mike Rana. A Citizen's Manifesto: A Ray of Hope. p. 60.
- ^ Lewis, James R. Violence and New Religious Movements. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 331. Retrieved 10 June 2018.
{{ cite book}}
:|work=
ignored ( help)- ^ "'Thrusting Khalistan on the Sikhs?'". the radical Khalistani fringe wanted it do. Anyone who knows something about the Sikhs will tell you that 99% of them are proud of both their community and country. Hindustan Times. 9 March 2018.
- ^ "Most Punjabis in Canada don't support Khalistan: Expert". An impression created by fringe groups in Canada — virtually a second Punjab for the Sikh community — that the country is a “bastion for Khalistanis” is incorrect, a Canadian expert, who. 8 April 2018.
Version 2 : Support (Movement is active. Not arguing for resurgence)
Since 2017 Punjab police have arrested a number of separatist Referendum 2020 campaign supporters [1] [2] and militants. [3] [4] Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh claims the movement's activity is backed by Pakistan's ISI, as well as Khalistan supporters in Canada, Italy, and the UK. [5]
The movement is currently active in India and the Sikh diaspora, with yearly demonstrations in protest of those killed during Operation Blue Star. [6] [7] [8]
.
Given the differences between our RfC versions, I am arguing for two things:
Here are the facts:
I came across this movement when another user attempted to remove it from the List of active separatist movements in Asia. I think it's clear the Khalistan movement is active and belongs in that list. I'm not arguing there is a "resurgence". That implies more than I really care to argue about. Just that it's active.
The group is mainly focused on Punjab, India. Some of the government's response to this group is concerning. Chief Minister of Punjab Amarinder Singh said "Freedom of speech was enshrined in the Indian Constitution but separatists and hardliners and those propagating violence had lost any such right as they were rejected outright by the people of Punjab" [12] His crackdown on Khalistan supporters is widespread. The Hindustan Times explains, "Police teams also conducted raids to nab more 'Punjab-based Khalistani activists', who allegedly assisted in spreading SFJ’s campaign whose full title is ‘Punjab Independence Referendum 2020’. Raids are being conducted in Haryana and J&K too." [13] India's censor board also banned "Toofan Singh", which portrays this movement in a positive light. [14]
There is currently a lot of propaganda at work in India. I believe it's paying off with the edits I've seen here.
Unlike DBigXray's proposal, I think you'll find my proposal fair and based in fact. There are some militant aspects to this group. I fairly represent that. But I find it interesting that DBigXray's version doesn't mention the arrests of peaceful protestors. Some books reported this group faded a bit in the 1990s. I am not asking to remove that, but DBigXray believes these books reporting on events in the 1990s apply to the group today. Just look over the list I provided above. Do you think the movement is active?
All I ask that you take the facts in yourself and decide fairly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elephanthunter ( talk • contribs)
References
|
---|
References
|
Some Major milestones/Claims (As context for new editors)
{{
cite news}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |work=
(
help) Canadian PM-- DBig Xray 10:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
The reuters article only mentions the word "fringe" when quoting Indian government sources. Is there any independent source that states that all groups that are sympathetic to the movement are fringe groups? If so I find no problem with either option. If not I'm okay with the first one minus "fringe". I see no problems with the second one. RadicallyNeutral ( talk) 12:52, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
References
|
---|
References
|
References
|
---|
References
|
References
|
---|
References
|
Feb 2018: India states that there is no resurgenceand
Canada states that it will not allow anyone to reignite the Khalistan movement-- okay, so the Indian government is one, nope, obvious COI there, and ironically Canada saying it will not "allow anyone to reignite the Khalistan movement"... implies that the threat is present enough to be considered. "Resurgence" I don't really care but you can't go around calling the movement fringe and pretending it doesn't really exist any more. If there are protests that India has to resort to force to suppressing, yes, it exists and is quite relevant. -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:47, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Comment DBigXRay has invoked this RfC's result as having bearing on the page
List of active separatist movements in Asia [
[7]]. This means that in order for side "Oppose" to gain the consensus, either it must be clarified that this RfC does not have bearing on that page, or that page's criterion for inclusion must have bearing on this debate. In particular this means that side "Oppose" needs to demonstrate that the movement does not have any recent activity at all, and furthermore, that autonomist movements (like one potentially calling for a Sikh entity within India) are also considered separatist, as per the paradigm used on that page and its sister pages which allow hte presence of movements like
Wessex separatism.--
Calthinus (
talk)
21:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Gazoth: First off, thank you for your response Gazoth. You have some valid criticisms. The 1990s decline of support is acknowledged in the lede, in the sentence immediately preceding what we are changing. To the reader, decline should be clear, but perhaps too much so. My lede counters a potential reader interpretation that decline means "inactive" by referencing the annual protests on Operation Blue Star. In the second half of your comment, you reference my three citations for resurgence. You have a point, those are valid interpretations of the source content. My argument for resurgence was not a core argument though. If that section was absent, what do you think of the other sections (police activity, terrorist warnings, etc)? Again, thank you for replying. As far as opposing arguments go, this is one of the more refreshing ones. -- Elephanthunter ( talk) 23:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Tune into London Declaration on August 12th, 2018, if you are still not convinced then wait for Punjab Referendum 2020. Punjabis are either free or rebels. Khalistan Zindabad! 69.176.128.145 ( talk) 09:35, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
References
-- DBig Xray 11:09, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
The reference to "UNPO Official website". UNPO. Retrieved 26 May 2015. refers to this page as shown on the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20150526154223/http://unpo.org/article/2244
That page is about the Oromo of Ethiopia. It has nothing to do with Khalistan.
Unless a correct reference is provided, this information should be removed.
1.127.107.155 ( talk) 20:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Khalistan movement has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
222.100.126.78 ( talk) 23:32, 8 February 2019 (UTC)