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The population of the kibbutz was 765 (as of the last count in 2021), not 400 as the article says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DE:6F12:9200:5D6C:248B:7123:3871 ( talk) 06:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I change the description of this village ("Kfar" is village in Hebrew) from "settelment" to "kibbutz". That because this vilagge defines itself and has to properties of a Kibbutz. I think that the name "settelment" is misleading (it is usually used for Israeli settlement, while Kfar Aza is within the Green Line (Israel)). Please accept the change. Yonathan33 ( talk) 19:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm getting a bit of mixed feedback on these claims from RS upon a more thorough examination; none seem to be willing to put the claims in their own voice. While we're waiting for more information, is there a better way to describe this stuff? Should we omit it until we get independent verification, or should we keep it attributed to the soldiers on-scene, as it is now? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Longhornsg ( talk) 00:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Longhornsg ( talk) 14:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
The Times of Israel source cited in the article states "A reporter from i24 News said that an IDF commander told her that they had found the bodies of some 40 babies, some of whom had been beheaded." i24NEWS cited David Ben Zion as the IDF commander who made those claims. In 2021, David Ben Zion was the Deputy Head of the Samaria Council according to 7ISRAEL National News. In February 2023, Ben David was reported by 7ISRAEL to have said "the village of Hvara should be wiped out, this place is a nest of terror and the punishment should be for everyone". "Enough with nice talk about building and strengthening settlements," "The other inline source in that sentence is paywalled. If it's reliable at all, can someone with access be more specific as to what it says? Are there any other, better sources or do we intend to rely on one statement made by someone who wants to wipe out Palestinian villages? Kire1975 ( talk) 09:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
“ | Every few minutes soldiers broke the silence to announce that more dead people had been discovered. Some said that up to 40 babies’ corpses had been found among entire families who were shot dead as they slept. The children in particular appeared to have suffered gruesome deaths: there were claims that some had had their throats cut. | ” |
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Firsty, the article contains viral false information that 40 children are claimed to have been beheaded, which went viral after a misrepresentation by Belarusian media.
This should be added:
The Belarusian media outlet NEXTA claimed "Israel showed the world bodies of 40 beheaded Israeli babies", which went viral, despite being a misrepresentation. [1]
Secondly, the inclusion of journalists on site validates these these allegations if it does not clarify that the journalists that accessed the site have not witnessed any evidence of beheadings.
This should be added:
Journalists that accessed the site have not witnessed any evidence of beheadings. SluggishSchizophrenic ( talk) 21:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
References
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ARandomName123 (
talk)Ping me! 14:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)Longhornsg ( talk) 00:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Ynet. It's in Hebrew, of which I don't understand anything, but it appears to be fairly detailed based off of the google translation. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
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Following a discussion in the article's Talk page I ask you to replace the word "settlement" when refering to Kfar Aza in the word "Kibbutz" or "Community". The word "settlement" is misleading because it is usually used to describe Israeli settlement while Kfar Aza is within the Green Line (Israel). Yonathan33 ( talk) 06:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Too macabre, as reporter states, for me to discuss further. In French. Here you go... https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651#m
No more disputes over this matter 2601:40:C481:A940:E908:2F8E:C8E4:99D6 ( talk) 07:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
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2607:FEA8:3B5E:4E00:398A:D8F8:A897:F296 ( talk) 22:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
the report about the beheading of babies has been discredited, this post is extremely biased, please look at the sources and the content of this page.
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In the line "and it had taken two for the Israel Defense Forces to wrest back full control of the community." would it better if it were "and it had taken two days for the Israel Defense Forces.." Milktime ( talk) 00:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
The one who spreads the lie, tweeted that she doesn’t know for a fact if it happened or not https://x.com/beltrew/status/1712023042560291083?s=46&t=KbbT_q4q8xaJ5tlDeA-aKA [ also the Israel army didn’t confirm the story https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/] https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/ . Wikipedia, be accurate for once and delete the false article Areejdf ( talk) 05:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
@ROADKILL, your argument seems moot. Nowhere in this article does it say that there were 40 beheaded babies. It says that some victims were beheaded, and it says also babies were killed. Both of those claims are verified in numerous reliable sources. I agree it should not say there were "40 beheaded babies" but I don't see that claim in the article. Jeppiz ( talk) 09:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi,
In this edit here [3], information was removed from the lede, with the edit summary reading, "Non notable, please give the solid reference", but the sources are given in the body of the article.
The lede isn't supposed to have any references, anyways. David O. Johnson ( talk) 08:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
This article is disinformation. Multiple news outlet have back tracked the story detailed here and no concrete evidence has been provided to back up this claim. All we have is hear say from the IDF and they have even made comments to say they have no evidence to back up this claim. This article should be removed until it has concrete confirmation that this has occurred. PatsyJ69 ( talk) 13:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Jerusalem Post tweet about independently verifying it:
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1712460425529372821
Warning NSFW or NSFL: https://twitter.com/israelipm/status/1712471782303867144?s=46
I think having alleged was appropriate since there was no pure confirmation previously, but I don't see why the JPost or Israel would make this up.
Entirely possible that they're AI generated images, but it seems unlikely. 1.157.208.97 ( talk) 15:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
This is a outrageous lie, IDF Itself put out an statement that It is a false accusation.
There is no evidence whatsoever, It is a lie and whoever wrote it Is spreading lies about the resistance of Palestinians. S.AbdulBasit20 ( talk) 15:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
User Makeandtoss just did a number of drastic and undiscussed changes, in violation of all sources. Makeandtoss removed from the lede the sentence that killings and beheadings took place, despite it being well sourced. Makeandtoss instead inserted, multiple times, the utterly irrelevant claim that no verification exists for "40 beheaded babies"; a claim the article didn't even make. This is shockingly poor editing, even worse in an article under ArbCom protection. Having reverted once today, I hope someone (in the best case Makeandtoss themselves) will revert these remarkably poor edits. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
I reverted the changes discussed above, although retaining a SkyNews source which might be helpful. It's probably fair to say that there is some "confusion" about beheadings, ages and numbers, so I left a remark to that effect. - St.nerol ( talk) 18:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Israeli officials claimed 40 babies were beheaded, and then continuously contradicted themselves. The decapitated children unconfirmed claim spread so wildly that it was uttered by the president of the United States, who, to make things worse, claimed to see pictures of it. This certainly deserves to be mentioned in the lede, not only because it has negative implications, but also because the lede is a summary of the body including any prominent controversies. Furthermore, I have not seen any source reporting on alleged decapitation. "with beheadings, dismemberment and the killing of children being reported, although with some confusion" is not a descriptive and honest sentence on what had happened, and certainly doesn't reflect reliable sources and the investigative reports done by CNN and Sky News (in contrast to the initial parroting done by some RS without question). Makeandtoss ( talk) 19:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Per
Anadolu Agency
[8]: A French reporter based in Jerusalem, Samuel Forey, said on X that he was in the Kfar Aza settlement, located less than 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from northeastern Gaza, on Tuesday but no one had mentioned the alleged decapitations.
"I have verified with two emergency services (wishing to remain anonymous, as the subject is sensitive) that have collected many corpses. Both affirm that they have not witnessed such atrocities, without saying that it did not exist."
Kire1975 (
talk) 00:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
See [9]. This might a source of some of the disruption. Given that Al Mayadeen is widely seen as a pro-Syria/Hezbollah propaganda outlet, I don't think their criticism are worth giving a toss about. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 20:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
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change One member of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) who had responded to the site said in an interview with I24NEWS that some corpses of the killed 40 children had been discovered beheaded,[14][15] Israeli soldiers in the town stated that several civilians had been beheaded.[5] CBS News later interviewed Yossi Landau, regional head of the first responder organisation ZAKA, who corroborated that both babies and minors had been beheaded alongside corpses of dismembered adults.[16]
The IDF stated to Insider that they would not investigate the allegation further, citing that it would be "disrespectful for the dead" to do so. to the information about the casualties number being 40 children was proven to be false Aishasaltt ( talk) 21:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Would this sentence in the lede reflect the body accurately?
"Despite reports of beheadings occurring, a claim that 40 babies were decapitated gained widespread media coverage, but was later walked back on by Israeli officials and has not been independently verified." Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:57, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Some users unfortunately seem unable to distinguish between the claim 40 babies were beheaded (unverified) and the claim multiple killings of old and young, some victims beheaded (well verified). Removing the second claim despite all sources because one finds no support for the first claim is poor editing, just like inserting the first based on sources saying the second is poor editing. Unfortunately we see users repeating both of these mistakes. I would urge users to be more careful in their editing and not remove what is well sourced (mass killings and beheadings) nor add ehat is poorly sourced (40 beheaded babies). Jeppiz ( talk) 17:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello everyone, our goal at Wikipedia is to document facts and write history, noting that what we write here or in any other article will remain for years, and even after our death it will be read many times. Let us remember that we write for future generations.
We must avoid editing wars, cooperate rationally, and implement Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
The information is very conflicting, especially in light of the rapid development of events. I hope that the editors will follow (neutral) Arab and foreign news. Any party’s retraction of its claim is questionable, and what was built on doubt will remain doubtful.
I hope you avoid editorial wars, and write relationally and in accordance with Wikipedia standards and policies. With a commitment to neutrality and correct documentation. — Osama Eid ( talk) 19:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Hey there, I just wanted to point out that the leading paragraph and section about casualties currently contradict each other both from a content perspective and a references perspective. HeyDimpz ( talk) 00:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Re, this edit. WP:BUSINESSINSIDER is not a reliable source. It's a reversion of an edit of mine that's less than 24 hours old. Please undo or seek consensus to change WP:BI. Kire1975 ( talk) 20:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.Kire1975 ( talk) 03:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Is there any problem with now stating in Wikivoice that beheadings took place, and that people of all ages (including children) were murdered? All of that would seem well-sourced. The article currently says there are "claims" this happened, and does it best to cast doubt on it. It was all good to be careful when news first emerged, as per WP:NOTNEWS. In the first hours, even a couple of days, we had conflicting media reports and both hasty confirmations and hasty "fact-checks". Somewhat confusingly, some of those sources (while WP:RS in themselves) are still used even though more facts have since emerged. Is there any support in any reliable source from the past days to continue to say these are "claims" rather than to follow most sources that describe them as facts? We should not make claims that cannot be supported, but neither should downplay facts that can be sourced. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
does it best to cast doubt, it's just phrased cautiously, reflecting the uncertainty in the early reporting. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 17:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Babies were found without heads. Whether they were cut off or blown off, before or after their death is unknown. Regardless, they were in fact, unquestionably, beheaded.
Please add this to the main article, too, since i can't use the talk page there. 2601:40:C481:A940:8150:610F:D350:E508 ( talk) 15:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
I believe this whole section about allegations should be removed, if the story is verified according to WP:RS then put in a section about it. If it hasn't - then it does not arrent a section that literally invites conspiracy theorists and cranks. Delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacker1968 ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Initial reports said over a 100 were killed. This was downscaled to over 70. Then we had 52 victims confirmed, with 20 missing (some were taken as hostages back to Gaza like Daffa Adar). There is a gap of 11 between the confirmed victims and the victims listed by name, which number 41. I presume that 11 must refer to victims whose remains were so charred as to require forensic identification, but that is only a guess. No babies are mentioned and the youngest listed victim is a 14 year old lad from the Kutz family (all 5 of whom were slaughtered). Of the 41, 12 formed part of the security guard or had military functions. Nishidani ( talk) 11:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Did you bother to even read my edit summary? Makeandtoss ( talk) 18:55, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Several tabloids have been awash with this claim regarding Kfar Aza.
The actual details or what we know so far are as follows (not for inclusion in the article until the claim, which is sheer inference, undergoes some verification)
Asher Moskowich deputy head of the Elad branch of Hatzalah’s volunteer first responders states that he (11 October) found a baby who had been cooked in an oven among the remains transported to Camp Shura base, stating that the corpse was discovered in Kfar Aza. His view was based on what professional staff told him there, on the basis of ‘telltale marks from being pressed against a heating element.’ From this he concluded that ‘“They took the baby and put it, literally, in a kitchen oven." I.e. some Hamas terrorist wished to repeat what occurred in Auschwitz’s ovens. Hatzalah’s founder and president Eli Beer, revealed this at the Republican Jewish Coalition’s annual conference in Las Vegas, adding that another of his volunteers had see it, presumably at Kfar Aza, on the 8th of October. This has been picked up by tabloids, but not with the caution Beer cautiously added, which should forestall jumping to conclusions.
That paucity of knowledge leads, Beer said, to a number of gruesome questions: Did Hamas terrorists put the baby in the oven, then kill the baby as they turned the oven on? Did the baby’s parents hide the child in the oven to keep them safe from the attackers, only to burn as the house was set aflame? When was the baby killed? Ben Sales, An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven. Jewish Telegraphic Agency 31 October 2023 Nishidani ( talk) 16:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
So this is an inference, drawing on a Holocaust analogy. We simply don’t know. Nishidani ( talk) 16:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Dead baby in oven claim
During the transport of bodies for autopsy, two first responders with Hatzalah said that they encountered the corpse of a baby with oven marks on its body in the remains of a burnt house, and the organization's president spoke about the incident publicly for the first time at the Republican Jewish Coalition in Las Vegas in late October. Hatzalah's president stated that it was unknown how the baby made it into the oven, and suggested it was possible the parents of the child had placed the baby in the oven in an attempt to protect it from the fire, rather than the baby being deliberately placed in the oven by the Hamas attackers. [1] The claim was deemed false by Israeli newspaper Haaretz [2] [3] and by Yossi Landau, a representative of first responder organization ZAKA. [4] Haaretz reported that Israeli police found no evidence for it. [2] The claim had been seen by tens of millions on social media, after being shared by John Podhoretz and others. [4]
- ^ Sales, Ben (31 October 2023). "An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
- ^ a b "טבח חמאס גרר הפצת סיפורי זוועות שלא כולם קרו במציאות. האמת קשה מספיק". Haaretz (in Hebrew). December 3, 2023. Retrieved 5 December 2023.
- ^ "Conspiracy Theories and Lies | Denial of Hamas' October 7 Massacre Is Gaining Pace Online". Haaretz. Retrieved 5 December 2023.
- ^ a b "Attaque du Hamas : d'où vient l'affirmation selon laquelle un bébé israélien a été mis à mort dans un four ?". Libération (in French). Retrieved 2023-10-31.
A think the entire Casualties section, which now dominates the article, is just horror stories common in wars. The section should be reduced to known facts. All unconfirmed allegations should be thrown out. Apparently no baby was burnt or beheaded in Kfar Azza (or anywhere else?). No baby was even killed there. The only children who died there were two teenage minors, together with their soldier big sister. None of them reported beheaded or burnt or fried in ovens.
And as Haaretz wrote, spreading made-up horror stories, puts a question mark on all the actual atrocities carried out in Kfar Azza.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 23:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I looked through the Haaretz list of fatalities on 7th of October and counted to a total of 29 minors killed, 11 by rockets (5 of them Arabs), 13 of them young children (below 13), of which 1 infant (10 months), and 16 teenagers below 18. Two teenagers were killed in Kfar Azza: Yiftach Kutz (14) and Yonatan Kutz (16).
Anybody interested can get a copy of my name list. One interpolation done. Haaretz wrote that 10 minors died in Be'eri. I found 8 with stated age and two very young looking boys without age. So I included them: Ido and Alon Even. And sorry for swearing. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 02:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
The recent addition of media to the article is extremely problematic, as the Israeli website in which these pictures are taken from is known to have fabricated some of the photos. These additions require independent verification. The video of the interrogation of the Hamas operative also is problematic. Makeandtoss ( talk) 16:48, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean? Does it mean that the Al-Qassam Brigades and no one else was involved? Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
In the casualties section there is a photo of a clearly very young child, which the caption refers to as having been killed in Kfar Aza. Further down, in the part about the Haaretz article addressing disinformation about the massacre, it is stated that the only minors named as killed were aged 14 and 16 (thus problemstising the beheaded babies allegation). There's an inconsistency there which may confuse readers.
As I see the possibilities are:
1) The authenticity of the photo is unverified, and it should therefore be removed.
2) More than two minors were killed but only two have been named, in which case this should be clearly stated in the article with a citation, otherwise pointing it out in the context of disputing the baby-killing rumours leads the reader to believe that they were the only two. Djehuty98 ( talk) 12:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
I read about this when the story first came out, but I didn't add it to this article (though I did add them to the main Hamas article) because none of the sources I found stated that the (attempted) decapitations happened specifically at Kfar Aza. Unless sources are found stating that these events specifically happened at Kfar Aza, they should either be removed or have it be mentioned that their location is unspecified. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 17:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
This is part of two examples in lead of singling out an incident reported early on at Kfar Aza as marking this kibbutz off from others for a peculiar type of brutality there.
The attack is notable for brutality in the form of victims having been burned alive according to Israeli testimonies. [1] [2]
What happened there happened elsewhere in several kibbutzim, so this is not peculiar to Kfar Aza. Secondly, the sources do not back up the claim. Of 52 (actually 53) victims, the first source cites one case of a couple and their child. Our text generalizes this as a consistent feature of what occurred in Kfar Aza in a plurality of instances. The second source is The Telegraph which is not an RS for articles like this certainly, and was printed in the heat of the events. Nishidani ( talk) 00:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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To keep the unbiased integity of Wikipedia, the title should reflect so. The use of massacre immediately causes an emotional response before even beginning to read it. especially when at the end of the article Israel officially says no babies were killed and this main page even links to 'misinformation'. If massacre is kept, it should be explicitly stated that IDF contributed to many civilian deaths. Megaladoink ( talk) 14:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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There were decapitated children in the 7th of October attack, here are the photos: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/fe5cbf_a1479c402ed64259b93a9b5e09caed28~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_851,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/Hamas-massacre_net%20Remains%20of%20an%20Israeli%20body%20with%20their%20head%20chopped%20off%2C%20burned%20beyond%20r.jpg https://static.wixstatic.com/media/fe5cbf_3d6c515b4c2d4699a39b9126492cf5aa~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_726,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/Hamas-massacre_net%20Remains%20of%20an%20Israeli%20body%20with%20their%20head%20chopped%20off%2C%20burned%20beyond%20r.jpg
Now stop being pricks and holocaust denials, this website became a joke. 2A06:C701:42B9:8000:B57E:CCE1:4369:1FE2 ( talk) 13:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
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The population of the kibbutz was 765 (as of the last count in 2021), not 400 as the article says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DE:6F12:9200:5D6C:248B:7123:3871 ( talk) 06:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I change the description of this village ("Kfar" is village in Hebrew) from "settelment" to "kibbutz". That because this vilagge defines itself and has to properties of a Kibbutz. I think that the name "settelment" is misleading (it is usually used for Israeli settlement, while Kfar Aza is within the Green Line (Israel)). Please accept the change. Yonathan33 ( talk) 19:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm getting a bit of mixed feedback on these claims from RS upon a more thorough examination; none seem to be willing to put the claims in their own voice. While we're waiting for more information, is there a better way to describe this stuff? Should we omit it until we get independent verification, or should we keep it attributed to the soldiers on-scene, as it is now? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Longhornsg ( talk) 00:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Longhornsg ( talk) 14:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
The Times of Israel source cited in the article states "A reporter from i24 News said that an IDF commander told her that they had found the bodies of some 40 babies, some of whom had been beheaded." i24NEWS cited David Ben Zion as the IDF commander who made those claims. In 2021, David Ben Zion was the Deputy Head of the Samaria Council according to 7ISRAEL National News. In February 2023, Ben David was reported by 7ISRAEL to have said "the village of Hvara should be wiped out, this place is a nest of terror and the punishment should be for everyone". "Enough with nice talk about building and strengthening settlements," "The other inline source in that sentence is paywalled. If it's reliable at all, can someone with access be more specific as to what it says? Are there any other, better sources or do we intend to rely on one statement made by someone who wants to wipe out Palestinian villages? Kire1975 ( talk) 09:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
“ | Every few minutes soldiers broke the silence to announce that more dead people had been discovered. Some said that up to 40 babies’ corpses had been found among entire families who were shot dead as they slept. The children in particular appeared to have suffered gruesome deaths: there were claims that some had had their throats cut. | ” |
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Firsty, the article contains viral false information that 40 children are claimed to have been beheaded, which went viral after a misrepresentation by Belarusian media.
This should be added:
The Belarusian media outlet NEXTA claimed "Israel showed the world bodies of 40 beheaded Israeli babies", which went viral, despite being a misrepresentation. [1]
Secondly, the inclusion of journalists on site validates these these allegations if it does not clarify that the journalists that accessed the site have not witnessed any evidence of beheadings.
This should be added:
Journalists that accessed the site have not witnessed any evidence of beheadings. SluggishSchizophrenic ( talk) 21:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
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template. See discussion above.
ARandomName123 (
talk)Ping me! 14:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)Longhornsg ( talk) 00:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Ynet. It's in Hebrew, of which I don't understand anything, but it appears to be fairly detailed based off of the google translation. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
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Following a discussion in the article's Talk page I ask you to replace the word "settlement" when refering to Kfar Aza in the word "Kibbutz" or "Community". The word "settlement" is misleading because it is usually used to describe Israeli settlement while Kfar Aza is within the Green Line (Israel). Yonathan33 ( talk) 06:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Too macabre, as reporter states, for me to discuss further. In French. Here you go... https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651#m
No more disputes over this matter 2601:40:C481:A940:E908:2F8E:C8E4:99D6 ( talk) 07:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
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2607:FEA8:3B5E:4E00:398A:D8F8:A897:F296 ( talk) 22:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
the report about the beheading of babies has been discredited, this post is extremely biased, please look at the sources and the content of this page.
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In the line "and it had taken two for the Israel Defense Forces to wrest back full control of the community." would it better if it were "and it had taken two days for the Israel Defense Forces.." Milktime ( talk) 00:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
The one who spreads the lie, tweeted that she doesn’t know for a fact if it happened or not https://x.com/beltrew/status/1712023042560291083?s=46&t=KbbT_q4q8xaJ5tlDeA-aKA [ also the Israel army didn’t confirm the story https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/] https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/ . Wikipedia, be accurate for once and delete the false article Areejdf ( talk) 05:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
@ROADKILL, your argument seems moot. Nowhere in this article does it say that there were 40 beheaded babies. It says that some victims were beheaded, and it says also babies were killed. Both of those claims are verified in numerous reliable sources. I agree it should not say there were "40 beheaded babies" but I don't see that claim in the article. Jeppiz ( talk) 09:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi,
In this edit here [3], information was removed from the lede, with the edit summary reading, "Non notable, please give the solid reference", but the sources are given in the body of the article.
The lede isn't supposed to have any references, anyways. David O. Johnson ( talk) 08:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
This article is disinformation. Multiple news outlet have back tracked the story detailed here and no concrete evidence has been provided to back up this claim. All we have is hear say from the IDF and they have even made comments to say they have no evidence to back up this claim. This article should be removed until it has concrete confirmation that this has occurred. PatsyJ69 ( talk) 13:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Jerusalem Post tweet about independently verifying it:
https://twitter.com/Jerusalem_Post/status/1712460425529372821
Warning NSFW or NSFL: https://twitter.com/israelipm/status/1712471782303867144?s=46
I think having alleged was appropriate since there was no pure confirmation previously, but I don't see why the JPost or Israel would make this up.
Entirely possible that they're AI generated images, but it seems unlikely. 1.157.208.97 ( talk) 15:35, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
This is a outrageous lie, IDF Itself put out an statement that It is a false accusation.
There is no evidence whatsoever, It is a lie and whoever wrote it Is spreading lies about the resistance of Palestinians. S.AbdulBasit20 ( talk) 15:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
User Makeandtoss just did a number of drastic and undiscussed changes, in violation of all sources. Makeandtoss removed from the lede the sentence that killings and beheadings took place, despite it being well sourced. Makeandtoss instead inserted, multiple times, the utterly irrelevant claim that no verification exists for "40 beheaded babies"; a claim the article didn't even make. This is shockingly poor editing, even worse in an article under ArbCom protection. Having reverted once today, I hope someone (in the best case Makeandtoss themselves) will revert these remarkably poor edits. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
I reverted the changes discussed above, although retaining a SkyNews source which might be helpful. It's probably fair to say that there is some "confusion" about beheadings, ages and numbers, so I left a remark to that effect. - St.nerol ( talk) 18:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Israeli officials claimed 40 babies were beheaded, and then continuously contradicted themselves. The decapitated children unconfirmed claim spread so wildly that it was uttered by the president of the United States, who, to make things worse, claimed to see pictures of it. This certainly deserves to be mentioned in the lede, not only because it has negative implications, but also because the lede is a summary of the body including any prominent controversies. Furthermore, I have not seen any source reporting on alleged decapitation. "with beheadings, dismemberment and the killing of children being reported, although with some confusion" is not a descriptive and honest sentence on what had happened, and certainly doesn't reflect reliable sources and the investigative reports done by CNN and Sky News (in contrast to the initial parroting done by some RS without question). Makeandtoss ( talk) 19:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Per
Anadolu Agency
[8]: A French reporter based in Jerusalem, Samuel Forey, said on X that he was in the Kfar Aza settlement, located less than 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from northeastern Gaza, on Tuesday but no one had mentioned the alleged decapitations.
"I have verified with two emergency services (wishing to remain anonymous, as the subject is sensitive) that have collected many corpses. Both affirm that they have not witnessed such atrocities, without saying that it did not exist."
Kire1975 (
talk) 00:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
See [9]. This might a source of some of the disruption. Given that Al Mayadeen is widely seen as a pro-Syria/Hezbollah propaganda outlet, I don't think their criticism are worth giving a toss about. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 20:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
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change One member of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) who had responded to the site said in an interview with I24NEWS that some corpses of the killed 40 children had been discovered beheaded,[14][15] Israeli soldiers in the town stated that several civilians had been beheaded.[5] CBS News later interviewed Yossi Landau, regional head of the first responder organisation ZAKA, who corroborated that both babies and minors had been beheaded alongside corpses of dismembered adults.[16]
The IDF stated to Insider that they would not investigate the allegation further, citing that it would be "disrespectful for the dead" to do so. to the information about the casualties number being 40 children was proven to be false Aishasaltt ( talk) 21:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Would this sentence in the lede reflect the body accurately?
"Despite reports of beheadings occurring, a claim that 40 babies were decapitated gained widespread media coverage, but was later walked back on by Israeli officials and has not been independently verified." Makeandtoss ( talk) 11:57, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Some users unfortunately seem unable to distinguish between the claim 40 babies were beheaded (unverified) and the claim multiple killings of old and young, some victims beheaded (well verified). Removing the second claim despite all sources because one finds no support for the first claim is poor editing, just like inserting the first based on sources saying the second is poor editing. Unfortunately we see users repeating both of these mistakes. I would urge users to be more careful in their editing and not remove what is well sourced (mass killings and beheadings) nor add ehat is poorly sourced (40 beheaded babies). Jeppiz ( talk) 17:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello everyone, our goal at Wikipedia is to document facts and write history, noting that what we write here or in any other article will remain for years, and even after our death it will be read many times. Let us remember that we write for future generations.
We must avoid editing wars, cooperate rationally, and implement Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
The information is very conflicting, especially in light of the rapid development of events. I hope that the editors will follow (neutral) Arab and foreign news. Any party’s retraction of its claim is questionable, and what was built on doubt will remain doubtful.
I hope you avoid editorial wars, and write relationally and in accordance with Wikipedia standards and policies. With a commitment to neutrality and correct documentation. — Osama Eid ( talk) 19:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Hey there, I just wanted to point out that the leading paragraph and section about casualties currently contradict each other both from a content perspective and a references perspective. HeyDimpz ( talk) 00:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Re, this edit. WP:BUSINESSINSIDER is not a reliable source. It's a reversion of an edit of mine that's less than 24 hours old. Please undo or seek consensus to change WP:BI. Kire1975 ( talk) 20:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources.Kire1975 ( talk) 03:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Is there any problem with now stating in Wikivoice that beheadings took place, and that people of all ages (including children) were murdered? All of that would seem well-sourced. The article currently says there are "claims" this happened, and does it best to cast doubt on it. It was all good to be careful when news first emerged, as per WP:NOTNEWS. In the first hours, even a couple of days, we had conflicting media reports and both hasty confirmations and hasty "fact-checks". Somewhat confusingly, some of those sources (while WP:RS in themselves) are still used even though more facts have since emerged. Is there any support in any reliable source from the past days to continue to say these are "claims" rather than to follow most sources that describe them as facts? We should not make claims that cannot be supported, but neither should downplay facts that can be sourced. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
does it best to cast doubt, it's just phrased cautiously, reflecting the uncertainty in the early reporting. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 17:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Babies were found without heads. Whether they were cut off or blown off, before or after their death is unknown. Regardless, they were in fact, unquestionably, beheaded.
Please add this to the main article, too, since i can't use the talk page there. 2601:40:C481:A940:8150:610F:D350:E508 ( talk) 15:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
I believe this whole section about allegations should be removed, if the story is verified according to WP:RS then put in a section about it. If it hasn't - then it does not arrent a section that literally invites conspiracy theorists and cranks. Delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacker1968 ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Initial reports said over a 100 were killed. This was downscaled to over 70. Then we had 52 victims confirmed, with 20 missing (some were taken as hostages back to Gaza like Daffa Adar). There is a gap of 11 between the confirmed victims and the victims listed by name, which number 41. I presume that 11 must refer to victims whose remains were so charred as to require forensic identification, but that is only a guess. No babies are mentioned and the youngest listed victim is a 14 year old lad from the Kutz family (all 5 of whom were slaughtered). Of the 41, 12 formed part of the security guard or had military functions. Nishidani ( talk) 11:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Did you bother to even read my edit summary? Makeandtoss ( talk) 18:55, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Several tabloids have been awash with this claim regarding Kfar Aza.
The actual details or what we know so far are as follows (not for inclusion in the article until the claim, which is sheer inference, undergoes some verification)
Asher Moskowich deputy head of the Elad branch of Hatzalah’s volunteer first responders states that he (11 October) found a baby who had been cooked in an oven among the remains transported to Camp Shura base, stating that the corpse was discovered in Kfar Aza. His view was based on what professional staff told him there, on the basis of ‘telltale marks from being pressed against a heating element.’ From this he concluded that ‘“They took the baby and put it, literally, in a kitchen oven." I.e. some Hamas terrorist wished to repeat what occurred in Auschwitz’s ovens. Hatzalah’s founder and president Eli Beer, revealed this at the Republican Jewish Coalition’s annual conference in Las Vegas, adding that another of his volunteers had see it, presumably at Kfar Aza, on the 8th of October. This has been picked up by tabloids, but not with the caution Beer cautiously added, which should forestall jumping to conclusions.
That paucity of knowledge leads, Beer said, to a number of gruesome questions: Did Hamas terrorists put the baby in the oven, then kill the baby as they turned the oven on? Did the baby’s parents hide the child in the oven to keep them safe from the attackers, only to burn as the house was set aflame? When was the baby killed? Ben Sales, An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven. Jewish Telegraphic Agency 31 October 2023 Nishidani ( talk) 16:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
So this is an inference, drawing on a Holocaust analogy. We simply don’t know. Nishidani ( talk) 16:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Dead baby in oven claim
During the transport of bodies for autopsy, two first responders with Hatzalah said that they encountered the corpse of a baby with oven marks on its body in the remains of a burnt house, and the organization's president spoke about the incident publicly for the first time at the Republican Jewish Coalition in Las Vegas in late October. Hatzalah's president stated that it was unknown how the baby made it into the oven, and suggested it was possible the parents of the child had placed the baby in the oven in an attempt to protect it from the fire, rather than the baby being deliberately placed in the oven by the Hamas attackers. [1] The claim was deemed false by Israeli newspaper Haaretz [2] [3] and by Yossi Landau, a representative of first responder organization ZAKA. [4] Haaretz reported that Israeli police found no evidence for it. [2] The claim had been seen by tens of millions on social media, after being shared by John Podhoretz and others. [4]
- ^ Sales, Ben (31 October 2023). "An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
- ^ a b "טבח חמאס גרר הפצת סיפורי זוועות שלא כולם קרו במציאות. האמת קשה מספיק". Haaretz (in Hebrew). December 3, 2023. Retrieved 5 December 2023.
- ^ "Conspiracy Theories and Lies | Denial of Hamas' October 7 Massacre Is Gaining Pace Online". Haaretz. Retrieved 5 December 2023.
- ^ a b "Attaque du Hamas : d'où vient l'affirmation selon laquelle un bébé israélien a été mis à mort dans un four ?". Libération (in French). Retrieved 2023-10-31.
A think the entire Casualties section, which now dominates the article, is just horror stories common in wars. The section should be reduced to known facts. All unconfirmed allegations should be thrown out. Apparently no baby was burnt or beheaded in Kfar Azza (or anywhere else?). No baby was even killed there. The only children who died there were two teenage minors, together with their soldier big sister. None of them reported beheaded or burnt or fried in ovens.
And as Haaretz wrote, spreading made-up horror stories, puts a question mark on all the actual atrocities carried out in Kfar Azza.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 23:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
I looked through the Haaretz list of fatalities on 7th of October and counted to a total of 29 minors killed, 11 by rockets (5 of them Arabs), 13 of them young children (below 13), of which 1 infant (10 months), and 16 teenagers below 18. Two teenagers were killed in Kfar Azza: Yiftach Kutz (14) and Yonatan Kutz (16).
Anybody interested can get a copy of my name list. One interpolation done. Haaretz wrote that 10 minors died in Be'eri. I found 8 with stated age and two very young looking boys without age. So I included them: Ido and Alon Even. And sorry for swearing. Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 02:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
The recent addition of media to the article is extremely problematic, as the Israeli website in which these pictures are taken from is known to have fabricated some of the photos. These additions require independent verification. The video of the interrogation of the Hamas operative also is problematic. Makeandtoss ( talk) 16:48, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean? Does it mean that the Al-Qassam Brigades and no one else was involved? Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
In the casualties section there is a photo of a clearly very young child, which the caption refers to as having been killed in Kfar Aza. Further down, in the part about the Haaretz article addressing disinformation about the massacre, it is stated that the only minors named as killed were aged 14 and 16 (thus problemstising the beheaded babies allegation). There's an inconsistency there which may confuse readers.
As I see the possibilities are:
1) The authenticity of the photo is unverified, and it should therefore be removed.
2) More than two minors were killed but only two have been named, in which case this should be clearly stated in the article with a citation, otherwise pointing it out in the context of disputing the baby-killing rumours leads the reader to believe that they were the only two. Djehuty98 ( talk) 12:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
I read about this when the story first came out, but I didn't add it to this article (though I did add them to the main Hamas article) because none of the sources I found stated that the (attempted) decapitations happened specifically at Kfar Aza. Unless sources are found stating that these events specifically happened at Kfar Aza, they should either be removed or have it be mentioned that their location is unspecified. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 17:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
This is part of two examples in lead of singling out an incident reported early on at Kfar Aza as marking this kibbutz off from others for a peculiar type of brutality there.
The attack is notable for brutality in the form of victims having been burned alive according to Israeli testimonies. [1] [2]
What happened there happened elsewhere in several kibbutzim, so this is not peculiar to Kfar Aza. Secondly, the sources do not back up the claim. Of 52 (actually 53) victims, the first source cites one case of a couple and their child. Our text generalizes this as a consistent feature of what occurred in Kfar Aza in a plurality of instances. The second source is The Telegraph which is not an RS for articles like this certainly, and was printed in the heat of the events. Nishidani ( talk) 00:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
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To keep the unbiased integity of Wikipedia, the title should reflect so. The use of massacre immediately causes an emotional response before even beginning to read it. especially when at the end of the article Israel officially says no babies were killed and this main page even links to 'misinformation'. If massacre is kept, it should be explicitly stated that IDF contributed to many civilian deaths. Megaladoink ( talk) 14:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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There were decapitated children in the 7th of October attack, here are the photos: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/fe5cbf_a1479c402ed64259b93a9b5e09caed28~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_851,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/Hamas-massacre_net%20Remains%20of%20an%20Israeli%20body%20with%20their%20head%20chopped%20off%2C%20burned%20beyond%20r.jpg https://static.wixstatic.com/media/fe5cbf_3d6c515b4c2d4699a39b9126492cf5aa~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_726,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/Hamas-massacre_net%20Remains%20of%20an%20Israeli%20body%20with%20their%20head%20chopped%20off%2C%20burned%20beyond%20r.jpg
Now stop being pricks and holocaust denials, this website became a joke. 2A06:C701:42B9:8000:B57E:CCE1:4369:1FE2 ( talk) 13:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)