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A photo in this entry shows and is captioned as him with a puppet from Captain Kangaroo. Yet there is no mention at all in the article about any involvement with that show. If he was involved somehow, it certainly should be mentioned. If not, then the photo is misleading (and confusing, why would he pose with a puppet he had nothing to do with?). Can anyone out there clarify this and update the article? Russeasby 04:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
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Image:Kevinclashelmo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 14:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 18:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Wondering why he is described as "African American" and not simply "American." Biographies of white actors are described as American, not "European American". Why is it necessary to add "African"?
I hate to quote tmz & salon.com but http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/12/elmo-kevin-clash-sex-sesame-street-underage-boy-allegations/ so why did someone remove the lgbt category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranoid Android1208 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
"I am a gay man. I have never been ashamed of this or tried to hide it, but felt it was a personal and private matter. I had a relationship with the accuser. It was between two consenting adults and I am deeply saddened that he is trying to characterize it as something other than what it was. I am taking a break from Sesame Workshop to deal with this false and defamatory allegation." - Kevin Clash's Statement to CNN (added to CNN's Blog at 18:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC) [User: CoasterGhost|CoasterGhost]] ( talk) - Section added at 20:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Jesus! I'm glad it's the internet... because you my friends have wasted a lot of ink..and your own time o_O
BTW things like this really are a real pain in the *** for everyone involved and are the main reason why wp has some problems in terms of editorship...so, thanks a lot! -.-
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk) 20:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
It's funny how these BLP concerns and protection issues don't come up when it's, say, a Christian minister or Republican politician who is being accuse of things like this... JayHubie ( talk) 22:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
So, the accuser recanted his story the very next day. Now do y'all get why we need to be careful with stuff like this? Bearcat ( talk) 23:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
He said he's gay but he's got children. What is someone who has had sex with a woman to the point of having a child, but claims to have been in a gay sexual relationship called? Is he bisexual? Is the child biologically his? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnElaborateLie ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
yeah, I noticed that as well, that the NYT is describing her as an adult. Per the muppet wiki (obviously not an RS for our purpose), she was born in 1993 which would make her 19 now. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
There are, for the record, plenty of gay people who spent some time "in the closet", even going so far as to marry someone of the opposite sex and parent children, before coming out as gay. That doesn't necessarily imply that someone is actually bisexual, because you have no way of knowing that they weren't actually fantasizing about a same-sex partner the whole time. Sexual orientation is a function of how the person labels their identity, which is not necessarily the same as their public record of sexual behaviour.
As for the relevance, it's acceptable for our article to mention that he was previously married to a woman and has a daughter, as long as that information is properly sourced. However, under our policy around privacy of names, we most likely shouldn't name the ex-wife or daughter here; since they're not public figures and their names aren't particularly important to the story, it would just be an unnecessary invasion of their privacy without actually adding anything of value to the article. Bearcat ( talk) 17:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
What's gonna happen to Elmo if Kevin is leaving the show forever?! -- 134.241.28.252 ( talk) 20:50, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
clash talks about his early life here NPR Fresh Air -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I've wanted to chime in on this horrible and heartbreaking situation, but haven't been due to holiday travels. This article definitely needs some work, but before that happens, I think that there needs to be some discussion about how to handle including the allegations and Clash's resignation here. I don't think the current version is appropriate, for some of the reasons discussed in a previous section on this talk page. This story is probably by no means over, so please remember that Wikipedia does not have a deadline. Neither is it a newspaper, so including a long section detailing, almost word-for-word, the content of a few news articles, some of which aren't reliable, is inappropriate. Therefore, I suggest removing the section and placing a new subsection in "Career" entitled "Resignation from Sesame Workshop". I also suggest this simple addition, with the appropriate sourcing: "In late November 2012, Clash resigned from Sesame Workshop amidst allegations that he had sexual relationships with two men while they were still minors. Clash came out as gay, but denied the accusations". We can rework that, but you get the general idea of how I think we should address it. Discuss, please. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 19:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
you are incorrect. If there is a consensus shown in this discussion, it is that the current level of information is prefered. reverting. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
You are correct that more content needs to be added regarding Clash's earlier work/life. However, the lack of content in that area does not mean that full coverage of another (this) area is WP:UNDUE. Unfortunately for Mr Clash, this incident is likely to dominate the rest of his career/reputation. The section as is includes direct quotes from clash, as well as sesame, and the additional detail is actually beneficial to Clash, as it casts some doubt as to the honesty/motive of his accusers. Gaijin42 ( talk) 20:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
He resigned over it, its not crystal to say this is a very notable event in his life. In any case, I have made some trims/summarizations. Let me know what you think. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Here are a few parts I would be ok with trimming
Gaijin42 ( talk) 05:06, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
In late 2012, Clash resigned from Sesame Workshop amidst allegations that he had sexual relationships with two men while they were still minors. Sesame Workshop had initially been presented with the first allegation earlier in the year, and its investigation found the allegation to be unsubstantiated; however, Clash was disciplined for violating company policy around Internet usage in the workplace and he settled with his accuser out of court. Clash denied the allegations, but came out as gay. After the second accusation, Clash resigned, issuing the following statement: "Personal matters have diverted attention away from the important work Sesame Street is doing and I cannot allow it to go on any longer. I am deeply sorry to be leaving and am looking forward to resolving these personal matters privately." Sesame Workshop also issued a statement saying, "This is a sad day for Sesame Street". Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 06:23, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
comment from the peanut gallery - this looks much better and seems to be boiling down to the essentials much more quickly than I had thought would be possible. Congrats and keep up the good work! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Thoughts on removing the UNDUE tag? Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:ELNO, the external links section of an article is not meant to become a comprehensive directory of every link you can find on the internet which pertains to the topic at all; rather, it's only for a small number (three at most, but preferably no more than two) of the most directly relevant links, such as their own personal website or their profile on a database such as IMDb. Accordingly, I'm removing the following links from the external links section here. They may be readded to the article as references for article content, but aren't really useful in the external links section.
{{
cite AV media}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)- Bearcat ( talk) 18:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Not ready for the article yet, but looks like more to come :( Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
As promised/threatened, I have completed re-writing this article. It wasn't the most fun I've ever had in editing Wikipedia. Well, that's not true: I still need to improve the lead, which I will do tomorrow. I believe that it's more balanced and that its content no longer stresses the allegations against Clash and his resignation. I feel, however, that I need to explain some edits, especially regarding the newly-named "Resignation from Sesame Workshop" subsection.
I hope that my edits and changes satisfies all, and I can go on to other things now. Discuss please, as always. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 00:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
No major new revelations, just 4th accuser. Includes claim of transport across state lines of a minor, which would carry some heavier penalty
also looks like a movie project Clash was involved with was canned
Gaijin42 ( talk) 20:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
He is now being accused of breaking federal laws (transporting a minor across state lines for sex). If this goes to trial the article will have to be expanded and protected like Sanduskys. When a thing goes to fed court, we are no longer in tabloid/gossip territory but pending federal criminal charges territory. (If it was just the stupid tabloid trash, I'd say ignore it.)-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 23:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
If Clash cannot be described as African-American in the lead of the article, he should not be categorized as such. If he is categorized as such, he should be so described in the lead of the article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:21, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Where in the article does it say that Clash is African-Amercan? I do not see it. If it is worth categorizing it should be mentioned in the lead. If his notability is not at all conditioned on his beijng African-American than he should not be categorized as suc. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 01:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
The following interview is sufficient for sourcing the category imo http://www.bet.com/news/celebrities/2011/11/07/q-a-kevin-clash-on-being-elmo.html Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:34, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added (what I believe is) a contextually appropriate addition to Clash's race/ethnicity and removed the standalone addition from the other editor. I will shortly re-add the category. Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Just a bit of clarification here, because there seems to be some confusion about what Wikipedia actually expects in cases like this: it is not, in fact, necessary for a person's notability to be conditional on their identification with a racial or sexual minority group to merit categorization as such. That is, you do not have to make a case that Clash is notable specifically because he's an African-American and/or a gay puppeteer, but somehow wouldn't be notable if he were a straight white man who had still made a career out of playing Elmo on Sesame Street. The minority identity needs to be relevant and verifiable; it does not need to be a basic precondition of what made them notable in the first place.
His sexual orientation became notable and relevant as soon as he issued a public statement confirming that he identifies as gay; had he not done so, it would not have been notable or relevant (or, even more importantly, verifiable) no matter how many guys were coming forward with allegations about his sexual behaviour. However, it is not a requirement that he be notable specifically because he's gay to warrant description and categorization as such; he merely needs to be both notable and gay. Similarly, he does not have to be notable specifically because he's African-American to warrant description and categorization as such; he merely needs to be both notable and African-American. If he's a notable public figure who is a member of a particular ethnocultural group and/or a particular sexual identity, then all we require is that the statement of his identity is verifiable — we do not require proof that his membership in the identity group in question was necessarily the thing that made him notable enough for an article.
It is, for the record, true that such statements need to be properly sourced and verifiable. Strictly speaking, that does seem like a silly expectation in the matter of his being African-American, since one can quite clearly see that he is African-American just by looking at him. But the gay issue illustrates the point much more coherently, since sexual orientation is not typically an identity that can be discerned just by a person's physical appearance. In both cases, however, legitimate sources are out there for the statements, so it's just a matter of making sure that we cite them — however, it is not necessary to find sources which demonstrate that he's notable because he's gay or African-American. If he's notable, and the facts that he's gay and African-American are properly verifiable, then that's all that's required to support describing and categorizing him as being gay and African-American.
Accordingly, it's also not necessary that the description be present right in the article's lede to render the categorization valid. In actual fact, it's almost never necessary for a person's ethnic and/or sexual identities to be noted right in the article's introduction, because they're rarely if ever the most salient facts about a person's basic claim of notability — as long as the identity can be and is noted and sourced somewhere in the article, that's more than sufficient for our needs. Bearcat ( talk) 17:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
The tone of this discussion notwithstanding, I improved upon Gaijin's additions. I believe that the prose is more encyclopedic now; I also standardized the citations to parallel the conventions already used. (In the future, please do that with the other articles you contribute to; it means that other editors don't have to go behind you and fix them.) I also removed one of the sources used, since the same information was in the NYT article. (Also, the correct way to refer to the NYT is "The New York Times". I can't tell you how many times I've been corrected about it myself.) If anyone thinks they can improve upon what I've done, please do so. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 19:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
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Shouldn't a category be added because of these accusations? I'd do it myself but I don't seem to be able to pick wich one. PsychoPinball ( talk) 16:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
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A photo in this entry shows and is captioned as him with a puppet from Captain Kangaroo. Yet there is no mention at all in the article about any involvement with that show. If he was involved somehow, it certainly should be mentioned. If not, then the photo is misleading (and confusing, why would he pose with a puppet he had nothing to do with?). Can anyone out there clarify this and update the article? Russeasby 04:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Image:Kevin Clash in The News American.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Kevinclashelmo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 14:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:KC-GreatSpaceCoaster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 18:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Wondering why he is described as "African American" and not simply "American." Biographies of white actors are described as American, not "European American". Why is it necessary to add "African"?
I hate to quote tmz & salon.com but http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/12/elmo-kevin-clash-sex-sesame-street-underage-boy-allegations/ so why did someone remove the lgbt category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paranoid Android1208 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
"I am a gay man. I have never been ashamed of this or tried to hide it, but felt it was a personal and private matter. I had a relationship with the accuser. It was between two consenting adults and I am deeply saddened that he is trying to characterize it as something other than what it was. I am taking a break from Sesame Workshop to deal with this false and defamatory allegation." - Kevin Clash's Statement to CNN (added to CNN's Blog at 18:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC) [User: CoasterGhost|CoasterGhost]] ( talk) - Section added at 20:37, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Jesus! I'm glad it's the internet... because you my friends have wasted a lot of ink..and your own time o_O
BTW things like this really are a real pain in the *** for everyone involved and are the main reason why wp has some problems in terms of editorship...so, thanks a lot! -.-
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk) 20:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
It's funny how these BLP concerns and protection issues don't come up when it's, say, a Christian minister or Republican politician who is being accuse of things like this... JayHubie ( talk) 22:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
So, the accuser recanted his story the very next day. Now do y'all get why we need to be careful with stuff like this? Bearcat ( talk) 23:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
He said he's gay but he's got children. What is someone who has had sex with a woman to the point of having a child, but claims to have been in a gay sexual relationship called? Is he bisexual? Is the child biologically his? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnElaborateLie ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
yeah, I noticed that as well, that the NYT is describing her as an adult. Per the muppet wiki (obviously not an RS for our purpose), she was born in 1993 which would make her 19 now. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
There are, for the record, plenty of gay people who spent some time "in the closet", even going so far as to marry someone of the opposite sex and parent children, before coming out as gay. That doesn't necessarily imply that someone is actually bisexual, because you have no way of knowing that they weren't actually fantasizing about a same-sex partner the whole time. Sexual orientation is a function of how the person labels their identity, which is not necessarily the same as their public record of sexual behaviour.
As for the relevance, it's acceptable for our article to mention that he was previously married to a woman and has a daughter, as long as that information is properly sourced. However, under our policy around privacy of names, we most likely shouldn't name the ex-wife or daughter here; since they're not public figures and their names aren't particularly important to the story, it would just be an unnecessary invasion of their privacy without actually adding anything of value to the article. Bearcat ( talk) 17:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
What's gonna happen to Elmo if Kevin is leaving the show forever?! -- 134.241.28.252 ( talk) 20:50, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
clash talks about his early life here NPR Fresh Air -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I've wanted to chime in on this horrible and heartbreaking situation, but haven't been due to holiday travels. This article definitely needs some work, but before that happens, I think that there needs to be some discussion about how to handle including the allegations and Clash's resignation here. I don't think the current version is appropriate, for some of the reasons discussed in a previous section on this talk page. This story is probably by no means over, so please remember that Wikipedia does not have a deadline. Neither is it a newspaper, so including a long section detailing, almost word-for-word, the content of a few news articles, some of which aren't reliable, is inappropriate. Therefore, I suggest removing the section and placing a new subsection in "Career" entitled "Resignation from Sesame Workshop". I also suggest this simple addition, with the appropriate sourcing: "In late November 2012, Clash resigned from Sesame Workshop amidst allegations that he had sexual relationships with two men while they were still minors. Clash came out as gay, but denied the accusations". We can rework that, but you get the general idea of how I think we should address it. Discuss, please. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 19:40, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
you are incorrect. If there is a consensus shown in this discussion, it is that the current level of information is prefered. reverting. Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
You are correct that more content needs to be added regarding Clash's earlier work/life. However, the lack of content in that area does not mean that full coverage of another (this) area is WP:UNDUE. Unfortunately for Mr Clash, this incident is likely to dominate the rest of his career/reputation. The section as is includes direct quotes from clash, as well as sesame, and the additional detail is actually beneficial to Clash, as it casts some doubt as to the honesty/motive of his accusers. Gaijin42 ( talk) 20:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
He resigned over it, its not crystal to say this is a very notable event in his life. In any case, I have made some trims/summarizations. Let me know what you think. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:11, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Here are a few parts I would be ok with trimming
Gaijin42 ( talk) 05:06, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
In late 2012, Clash resigned from Sesame Workshop amidst allegations that he had sexual relationships with two men while they were still minors. Sesame Workshop had initially been presented with the first allegation earlier in the year, and its investigation found the allegation to be unsubstantiated; however, Clash was disciplined for violating company policy around Internet usage in the workplace and he settled with his accuser out of court. Clash denied the allegations, but came out as gay. After the second accusation, Clash resigned, issuing the following statement: "Personal matters have diverted attention away from the important work Sesame Street is doing and I cannot allow it to go on any longer. I am deeply sorry to be leaving and am looking forward to resolving these personal matters privately." Sesame Workshop also issued a statement saying, "This is a sad day for Sesame Street". Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 06:23, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
comment from the peanut gallery - this looks much better and seems to be boiling down to the essentials much more quickly than I had thought would be possible. Congrats and keep up the good work! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Thoughts on removing the UNDUE tag? Gaijin42 ( talk) 23:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:ELNO, the external links section of an article is not meant to become a comprehensive directory of every link you can find on the internet which pertains to the topic at all; rather, it's only for a small number (three at most, but preferably no more than two) of the most directly relevant links, such as their own personal website or their profile on a database such as IMDb. Accordingly, I'm removing the following links from the external links section here. They may be readded to the article as references for article content, but aren't really useful in the external links section.
{{
cite AV media}}
: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)- Bearcat ( talk) 18:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Not ready for the article yet, but looks like more to come :( Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
As promised/threatened, I have completed re-writing this article. It wasn't the most fun I've ever had in editing Wikipedia. Well, that's not true: I still need to improve the lead, which I will do tomorrow. I believe that it's more balanced and that its content no longer stresses the allegations against Clash and his resignation. I feel, however, that I need to explain some edits, especially regarding the newly-named "Resignation from Sesame Workshop" subsection.
I hope that my edits and changes satisfies all, and I can go on to other things now. Discuss please, as always. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 00:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
No major new revelations, just 4th accuser. Includes claim of transport across state lines of a minor, which would carry some heavier penalty
also looks like a movie project Clash was involved with was canned
Gaijin42 ( talk) 20:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
He is now being accused of breaking federal laws (transporting a minor across state lines for sex). If this goes to trial the article will have to be expanded and protected like Sanduskys. When a thing goes to fed court, we are no longer in tabloid/gossip territory but pending federal criminal charges territory. (If it was just the stupid tabloid trash, I'd say ignore it.)-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 23:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
If Clash cannot be described as African-American in the lead of the article, he should not be categorized as such. If he is categorized as such, he should be so described in the lead of the article.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 01:21, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Where in the article does it say that Clash is African-Amercan? I do not see it. If it is worth categorizing it should be mentioned in the lead. If his notability is not at all conditioned on his beijng African-American than he should not be categorized as suc. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 01:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
The following interview is sufficient for sourcing the category imo http://www.bet.com/news/celebrities/2011/11/07/q-a-kevin-clash-on-being-elmo.html Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:34, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
I have added (what I believe is) a contextually appropriate addition to Clash's race/ethnicity and removed the standalone addition from the other editor. I will shortly re-add the category. Gaijin42 ( talk) 15:42, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Just a bit of clarification here, because there seems to be some confusion about what Wikipedia actually expects in cases like this: it is not, in fact, necessary for a person's notability to be conditional on their identification with a racial or sexual minority group to merit categorization as such. That is, you do not have to make a case that Clash is notable specifically because he's an African-American and/or a gay puppeteer, but somehow wouldn't be notable if he were a straight white man who had still made a career out of playing Elmo on Sesame Street. The minority identity needs to be relevant and verifiable; it does not need to be a basic precondition of what made them notable in the first place.
His sexual orientation became notable and relevant as soon as he issued a public statement confirming that he identifies as gay; had he not done so, it would not have been notable or relevant (or, even more importantly, verifiable) no matter how many guys were coming forward with allegations about his sexual behaviour. However, it is not a requirement that he be notable specifically because he's gay to warrant description and categorization as such; he merely needs to be both notable and gay. Similarly, he does not have to be notable specifically because he's African-American to warrant description and categorization as such; he merely needs to be both notable and African-American. If he's a notable public figure who is a member of a particular ethnocultural group and/or a particular sexual identity, then all we require is that the statement of his identity is verifiable — we do not require proof that his membership in the identity group in question was necessarily the thing that made him notable enough for an article.
It is, for the record, true that such statements need to be properly sourced and verifiable. Strictly speaking, that does seem like a silly expectation in the matter of his being African-American, since one can quite clearly see that he is African-American just by looking at him. But the gay issue illustrates the point much more coherently, since sexual orientation is not typically an identity that can be discerned just by a person's physical appearance. In both cases, however, legitimate sources are out there for the statements, so it's just a matter of making sure that we cite them — however, it is not necessary to find sources which demonstrate that he's notable because he's gay or African-American. If he's notable, and the facts that he's gay and African-American are properly verifiable, then that's all that's required to support describing and categorizing him as being gay and African-American.
Accordingly, it's also not necessary that the description be present right in the article's lede to render the categorization valid. In actual fact, it's almost never necessary for a person's ethnic and/or sexual identities to be noted right in the article's introduction, because they're rarely if ever the most salient facts about a person's basic claim of notability — as long as the identity can be and is noted and sourced somewhere in the article, that's more than sufficient for our needs. Bearcat ( talk) 17:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
The tone of this discussion notwithstanding, I improved upon Gaijin's additions. I believe that the prose is more encyclopedic now; I also standardized the citations to parallel the conventions already used. (In the future, please do that with the other articles you contribute to; it means that other editors don't have to go behind you and fix them.) I also removed one of the sources used, since the same information was in the NYT article. (Also, the correct way to refer to the NYT is "The New York Times". I can't tell you how many times I've been corrected about it myself.) If anyone thinks they can improve upon what I've done, please do so. Christine (Figureskatingfan) ( talk) 19:38, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
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Shouldn't a category be added because of these accusations? I'd do it myself but I don't seem to be able to pick wich one. PsychoPinball ( talk) 16:40, 9 January 2021 (UTC)