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Keiynan Lonsdale article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Q1: Why does this article use he/him pronouns for Lonsdale?
A1: Although in a 2018 Instagram Live video Lonsdale stated "when people ask me what my preferred pronoun is, I'm going to say 'tree'", in a
2020 interview, Lonsdale used he/him pronouns to refer to himself.
MOS:GENDERID states that we should "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources". |
It has been 1173 days since the latest tussle over "tree pronouns". |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
“I don’t want to go by ‘he’ anymore, I just want to go by ‘tree.’" Shouldn't that be enough to go through and edit the article to change all the pronouns from he/his to tree? I don't know how wikipedia is regarding these kinds of things, but tree seems to have been fairly clear in what tree said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Northerner1073 ( talk • contribs) 10:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
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hi so tree uses tree/treeself pronouns and transphobes were changing it to he/him could we officially get it changed to trees correct pronouns thanks 2603:6011:780E:D455:A1AE:D677:2992:C503 ( talk) 00:51, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
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change Lonsdale’s pronouns to trees new tree/trees/treeself pronouns 71.176.161.70 ( talk) 20:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
That Lonsdale's PR firm uses different pronouns is an interesting point– It sure is, and in a sane world it'd be dispositive.
I disagree that the article has been "twisted into a pretzel"– I didn't say it had. I was trying to say (but didn't say very clearly) that it should not be, and in particular it should not affect the Sophie-like tin-eared pretension of avoiding all pronouns on the subject's whim.
Lonsdale's stated preference– All the evidence is that he was joking, or talking out of his ass, or whatever you want to call it. I submit that the idea that someone wants people to pretend tree is a pronoun is an exceptional claim under WP:ABOUTSELF and that we need a serious, reliable source (i.e. not Billboard) to tell us that's really the case before we rework the article in the image of all this silliness.
Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources.As far as I'm aware, the Billboard interview is the most recent self-designation, unless you know of something I don't. As for "they", using "they" for someone who has specified a different pronoun is misgendering. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:42, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
That is upside down: We need a solid confirmation that Lonsdale wasn't joking. The 'tree'-pronouns claim is based on one single interview from several years ago. Without any more recent or confirming comments from the person, we really should just use the same pronouns as most other sources do. St.nerol ( talk) 17:53, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
He himself uses he, since that would mean he's talking about himself in the third person. But here's his PR firm's website [1]; the Billboard interview was 9/2018 and every release since (not to mention before) refers to the subject as he. All this gnashing of teeth and tearing out of hair is just unbelievable. What -- his own PR firm is misgendering him (or, you might say, mistergendering him)? E Eng 21:54, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
No one is going to look like a confederacy of dunces for wishing to respect a person's pronouns– They will if the "pronoun" is tree.
my understanding was that you were okay with the current wording– Yes I am but, as already mentioned, that's only because the article's relatively short – short enough that the avoidance of pronouns isn't excessively awkward.
As for going by Lonsdale's PR firm... MOS is pretty specific about going by the subject's self-ID– Oh come on! A PR apparatus projects, by definition, what the client wants projected. If he really wanted to be called tree they'd be calling him that, but of course he doesn't want that because it would make him sound like an affected dope. What his PR firm does is his self-ID.
unsure why you're seeing fit to use such hyperbole– Because hyperbole is fun, and anyway I wasn't talking about you. Probably I should have said handwringing (also not about you, at least not in particular).
The article is not quite correct in saying it was a Billboard interview, it was actually an Instagram Live Q&A with fans. Billboard just reported it. It was also picked up by Gay Times
[2], who quote this: Keiynan clarified: “Okay, this might sound stupid, but I don’t care. I don’t think this is offensive, but I don’t want to go by “he” anymore. I just want to go by “tree”.
Appears sincere, not joking, but says that "he" is not offensive. I don't believe it has been mentioned anywhere again since this Q&A, and there is no evidence that Lonsdale has objected to the "he" pronoun since then. I have also been unable to find "tree" ever being used by another publication.
P-K3 (
talk)
14:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
but says that "he" is not offensive: where is this? I'm not seeing that printed in either the Billboard or Gay Times sources. Is it something Lonsdale said in the Live? I tried to watch the embedded YouTube video (which I assume was a recording of the Live) on both sources and am seeing "Video unavailable". GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't think this is offensive, but I don't want to go by "he" anymoreto mean Lonsdale didn't find being referred to as "he" offensive, even if it wasn't preferred. Maybe "don't think this is offensive" is actually referring to his wish to be referred to as "tree"? I'm unsure now.-- P-K3 ( talk) 16:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
What's with the sudden rekindling of the issue on 20 March 2021 (based on page history)? Did Lonsdale mention it again somewhere? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 15:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
But we can't assume that because someone refers to themselves as a man, they use he/him pronouns (or vice versa). For the vast majority of people, we and reliable sources both can and do assume such. In this case he did say something else that gave us pause, but most people, including historical personages, never actually say "my pronouns are..."; but the identity and terminology to use is clear from what sources use and from the person's behavior (edit:) regarding their reaction or lack thereof to how others treat them or talk about them. I still mentioned that as further evidence that he identifies as male and thus that "he" is appropriate. Now as for the statement
he/him pronouns are not "male pronouns"[3] - I'm sorry, what? The whole reason it's important to get pronouns right is that they are gendered. Reliable sources are clear that "he" is in fact a male pronoun. [4] [5] Crossroads -talk- 19:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC) clarified "behavior" Crossroads -talk- 05:32, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
"I’m now living authentically and not so afraid, I felt like I had finally returned home to myself, the version of me that wasn’t here before. I tried to work so hard to change him, which we all can do in some ways." - 2020 interview
"Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources" - MOS:GENDERID
Credit to Genericusername57 for finding this. Any reason not to use he and him pronouns in this article, given his clear recent preference and the use of them by other sources (as shown above)? Crossroads -talk- 21:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
"tree" isn't a real pronoun. LeticiaLL ( talk) 22:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I went ahead and created an FAQ for the top of this page, and added a {{ pronoun editnotice}}, to hopefully reduce confusion among folks who end up at this talk page from outside venues such as Twitter. Feel free to edit if you think I have missed something or didn't accurately reflect the rough consensus. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Lonsdale has stated that tree prefers tree/treeself pronouns! Why he/him pronouns still being used? 217.121.187.95 ( talk) 16:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
As of early June 2021, Keiynan uses he/him/his pronouns based on an appearance at Outloud Music Festival (@ timestamp 1:06), uploaded to his official channel. I won't add this to the article itself since I don't really like citing individual frames of YouTube videos, but I feel like this is a helpful note if this issue comes up again. -- Prosperosity ( talk) 07:07, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Keiynan Lonsdale article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Frequently asked questions This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Q1: Why does this article use he/him pronouns for Lonsdale?
A1: Although in a 2018 Instagram Live video Lonsdale stated "when people ask me what my preferred pronoun is, I'm going to say 'tree'", in a
2020 interview, Lonsdale used he/him pronouns to refer to himself.
MOS:GENDERID states that we should "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources". |
It has been 1173 days since the latest tussle over "tree pronouns". |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
“I don’t want to go by ‘he’ anymore, I just want to go by ‘tree.’" Shouldn't that be enough to go through and edit the article to change all the pronouns from he/his to tree? I don't know how wikipedia is regarding these kinds of things, but tree seems to have been fairly clear in what tree said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Northerner1073 ( talk • contribs) 10:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
hi so tree uses tree/treeself pronouns and transphobes were changing it to he/him could we officially get it changed to trees correct pronouns thanks 2603:6011:780E:D455:A1AE:D677:2992:C503 ( talk) 00:51, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change Lonsdale’s pronouns to trees new tree/trees/treeself pronouns 71.176.161.70 ( talk) 20:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
That Lonsdale's PR firm uses different pronouns is an interesting point– It sure is, and in a sane world it'd be dispositive.
I disagree that the article has been "twisted into a pretzel"– I didn't say it had. I was trying to say (but didn't say very clearly) that it should not be, and in particular it should not affect the Sophie-like tin-eared pretension of avoiding all pronouns on the subject's whim.
Lonsdale's stated preference– All the evidence is that he was joking, or talking out of his ass, or whatever you want to call it. I submit that the idea that someone wants people to pretend tree is a pronoun is an exceptional claim under WP:ABOUTSELF and that we need a serious, reliable source (i.e. not Billboard) to tell us that's really the case before we rework the article in the image of all this silliness.
Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources.As far as I'm aware, the Billboard interview is the most recent self-designation, unless you know of something I don't. As for "they", using "they" for someone who has specified a different pronoun is misgendering. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:42, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
That is upside down: We need a solid confirmation that Lonsdale wasn't joking. The 'tree'-pronouns claim is based on one single interview from several years ago. Without any more recent or confirming comments from the person, we really should just use the same pronouns as most other sources do. St.nerol ( talk) 17:53, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
He himself uses he, since that would mean he's talking about himself in the third person. But here's his PR firm's website [1]; the Billboard interview was 9/2018 and every release since (not to mention before) refers to the subject as he. All this gnashing of teeth and tearing out of hair is just unbelievable. What -- his own PR firm is misgendering him (or, you might say, mistergendering him)? E Eng 21:54, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
No one is going to look like a confederacy of dunces for wishing to respect a person's pronouns– They will if the "pronoun" is tree.
my understanding was that you were okay with the current wording– Yes I am but, as already mentioned, that's only because the article's relatively short – short enough that the avoidance of pronouns isn't excessively awkward.
As for going by Lonsdale's PR firm... MOS is pretty specific about going by the subject's self-ID– Oh come on! A PR apparatus projects, by definition, what the client wants projected. If he really wanted to be called tree they'd be calling him that, but of course he doesn't want that because it would make him sound like an affected dope. What his PR firm does is his self-ID.
unsure why you're seeing fit to use such hyperbole– Because hyperbole is fun, and anyway I wasn't talking about you. Probably I should have said handwringing (also not about you, at least not in particular).
The article is not quite correct in saying it was a Billboard interview, it was actually an Instagram Live Q&A with fans. Billboard just reported it. It was also picked up by Gay Times
[2], who quote this: Keiynan clarified: “Okay, this might sound stupid, but I don’t care. I don’t think this is offensive, but I don’t want to go by “he” anymore. I just want to go by “tree”.
Appears sincere, not joking, but says that "he" is not offensive. I don't believe it has been mentioned anywhere again since this Q&A, and there is no evidence that Lonsdale has objected to the "he" pronoun since then. I have also been unable to find "tree" ever being used by another publication.
P-K3 (
talk)
14:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
but says that "he" is not offensive: where is this? I'm not seeing that printed in either the Billboard or Gay Times sources. Is it something Lonsdale said in the Live? I tried to watch the embedded YouTube video (which I assume was a recording of the Live) on both sources and am seeing "Video unavailable". GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't think this is offensive, but I don't want to go by "he" anymoreto mean Lonsdale didn't find being referred to as "he" offensive, even if it wasn't preferred. Maybe "don't think this is offensive" is actually referring to his wish to be referred to as "tree"? I'm unsure now.-- P-K3 ( talk) 16:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
What's with the sudden rekindling of the issue on 20 March 2021 (based on page history)? Did Lonsdale mention it again somewhere? ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 15:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
But we can't assume that because someone refers to themselves as a man, they use he/him pronouns (or vice versa). For the vast majority of people, we and reliable sources both can and do assume such. In this case he did say something else that gave us pause, but most people, including historical personages, never actually say "my pronouns are..."; but the identity and terminology to use is clear from what sources use and from the person's behavior (edit:) regarding their reaction or lack thereof to how others treat them or talk about them. I still mentioned that as further evidence that he identifies as male and thus that "he" is appropriate. Now as for the statement
he/him pronouns are not "male pronouns"[3] - I'm sorry, what? The whole reason it's important to get pronouns right is that they are gendered. Reliable sources are clear that "he" is in fact a male pronoun. [4] [5] Crossroads -talk- 19:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC) clarified "behavior" Crossroads -talk- 05:32, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
"I’m now living authentically and not so afraid, I felt like I had finally returned home to myself, the version of me that wasn’t here before. I tried to work so hard to change him, which we all can do in some ways." - 2020 interview
"Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources" - MOS:GENDERID
Credit to Genericusername57 for finding this. Any reason not to use he and him pronouns in this article, given his clear recent preference and the use of them by other sources (as shown above)? Crossroads -talk- 21:42, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
"tree" isn't a real pronoun. LeticiaLL ( talk) 22:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
I went ahead and created an FAQ for the top of this page, and added a {{ pronoun editnotice}}, to hopefully reduce confusion among folks who end up at this talk page from outside venues such as Twitter. Feel free to edit if you think I have missed something or didn't accurately reflect the rough consensus. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Lonsdale has stated that tree prefers tree/treeself pronouns! Why he/him pronouns still being used? 217.121.187.95 ( talk) 16:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
As of early June 2021, Keiynan uses he/him/his pronouns based on an appearance at Outloud Music Festival (@ timestamp 1:06), uploaded to his official channel. I won't add this to the article itself since I don't really like citing individual frames of YouTube videos, but I feel like this is a helpful note if this issue comes up again. -- Prosperosity ( talk) 07:07, 1 August 2021 (UTC)