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Need to run that through someone more knowledgable, but one very distinctive feature of Kansai-ben, not covered yet, seems to be heavy tendency to use うち as 1st person pronoun, neglecting all others. mathrick 21:37, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't have an official source (maybe a native Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben speaker can confirm), but during the year and a half I spent in Osaka, I definitely noticed the use of hen instead of the standard Japanese plain negative nai in everyday speech.
example: wakaranai -> wakarahen ["don't understand"]; tabenai -> tabehen ["don't eat"]
Can someone confirm this? -- Gar2chan 07:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that REALLY needs to be in there if it's not already. The past tense is usually henkatta and it's used incredible frequency all over Kansai, and in conjuction with other patterns as well. I won't put that in there yet, b/c i think someone needs to give orginization of the article a bit second thought (moreso the Japanese dialects article though). Also, if the n at the end of verbs isn't in there, that kind of goes in there with hen. That pattern is made by taking the base used in the nai pattern and putting n where nai would go. Past tense can also be done as nkatta, as in orankatta, meaning someone wasn't there (oru is common to be used in place of iru in Kansai regions as well). Alan 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
the "orankatta" isn't specific to Kansaiben though, it's used as far north as in Gifu. And south? I think it stretches even further.
Uchi is often used as a first-person pronoun by girls and young women.
Wakarahen as "don't understand" and taberarehen as "can't eat" are ubiquitous.
Wakaran is just as common but more casual. Wakaran is a contraction of the older Japanese wakaranu rather than a contraction of wakaranai. This applies to all words with negative -n endings.
In Osaka I also tend to hear -te harahen (e.g. itte harahen, isn't here) as the negative form of -te haru. I'm not sure if this is possible in Kyoto as well.
I don't know if orankatta is widespread outside of Kansai, but I know that using oru as "you are" (kanojyo oru? "Do you have a girlfriend?") is not the standard usage (first-person humble).
If anyone can give more feedback on these things, I'll work a bit on the article.
Dekimasu
00:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
More on uchi: my Japanese-Japanese dictionary lists the "I" usage as "mainly Kansai-ben, used by women and children." Dekimasu 00:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The french wikipedia article on kansai-ben has rather a lot more useful/interesting linguistic information than the english one. My french isn't that good or I'd translate it. -
66.251.24.39
02:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Colloquial Kansai Japanese" book is NOT from 2006. It is from 1995! (and Consequently, it somewhat out of date)-- 220.12.252.13 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Since no one has commented on this, i've made the change. I have the book in front of me and was first published in 1995 by the Charles E Tuttle Publishing Co., Inc. but has been republished a couple times later. ~nobuyuki -- 220.12.252.13 14:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing this article, I feel that it should be expanded in two areas:
1.) As noted below, the corresponding article in the French version appears to be far more comprehensive than the page in English. Somebody familiar with all three languages should work on bringing all of this information to the article in English.
2.) A section should be added citing the use of Kansai Dialect by characters in Anime. I am only a casual viewer of Anime, not by any means an enthusiast, yet I can still think of three such characters immediately: Ayumu Kasuga from Azumanga Daioh; The replacement organ company cyborg from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (season 1, episode 8); and Mitsune Konno from Love Hina. I'm sure that anybody who watches more anime than me can find more examples. What I find amusing is that in all three of the above series, the Kansai Dialect ALWAYS becomes a Texas accent in the English dub. This isn't always a negative aspect of the charcter - in fact I really enjoy Ayumu Kasuga's speaking voice and feel that it really adds an endearing quality to the character lovingly referred to as "Miss Osaka" by the rest of the Azumanga Daioh girls. I just think it's interesting that the American distributors of anime on DVD have decided to create a sterotype like this. It would be great if this article could explain exactly why characters from the Kinki region become Texans in the English version - the episode guide from ADV Films only gives a very vague explanation: "[Texas] shares the business-oriented attitude with Osaka as well as the country image that color both the Southern and Osaka accents". If anybody can expand on this, it would be greatly appreciated.
(un-indenting) I don't really think you're doing anybody a favour labelling this an "edit war"... Let's be honest, this is all down to the fact that I called what you wrote "bullshit", please try and rise over that comment instead of taking it personally. What you write is unsourced, and as I've already stated, you're wrong. Why do you then expect me to let it stay until you find a reliable source?? Mackan 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to interject, but I would like to point out that the perception of a dialect of Japanese as "equivalent" to one dialect or another of a separate language is subjective at best, since the phonological, grammatical, and lexical developments and histories (not to mention socioeconomic factors) that characterize any one dialect are unlikely to be replicated with a high degree of commonality between languages. While there are certain points of consensus among certain media (such as the portrayal of Kansai-ben as either Brooklyn or Texan in English dubs of anime), this hardly constitutes a scientific viewpoint. It is merely a way of getting across the notion that a separate dialect is being spoken, and approximating (though not exactly matching) cultural associations such as Manzai / comedy in Kansai-ben. Nonstandard dialects are a problem for any translator, and each one approaches the situation differently; just keep in mind that whatever they do end up using to represent it is only there to give you an idea of Kansai-ben, not to represent it on a one-to-one basis. For what it's worth, a translator could represent Standard Japanese as BBC English, and Kansai-ben as Scouse, or Scots, or even Californian, but that doesn't make such a portrayal a "law" of any sort. -- Julian Grybowski 00:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this section should definitely be in the article. Translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge, as the accent is often a crucial part of the humor and difficult to get that apart to English speaking audiences. As a reference, in the translator's notes for Magical☆Shopping Arcade Abenobashi the translator discusses why they chose to use a Texas accent for the characters. MightyAtom 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The tag User:Just H has put up reads "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed". What fact on the page are you disputing? Mackan 22:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you write about 河内弁/kawachi-ben in Osaka-ben topic?
Additional from a Japanese. You did not write the formal form. As for ‘へん’, compare‘行きません’ and ‘行きまへん’. I consider ‘行きまへん’ is a S-dropped form of the standerd ‘行きません’. Sorry that I'm not a kansai-ben user. But if I could help, I will. -- Oda Mari 10:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, はじめまして。Sorry that I did not notice the mentions.
The -mahen form is actually uncommon? What do I think? I have no idea about it.
As a standard Japanese speaker, what most irritates me is the kansai-ben 's accent. Especially when someone speaking almost perfect standard, and then he/she puts in a kansai accent noun or two on TV. Like April/sigatu. It's OK if it's a private,personal talk. But on TV not OK. Terrible English, I know. But you know what I mean. It seems to me the accent is the largest difference.
--
Oda Mari
16:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It was very interesting to read all those comments above. What I wanted to tell is that when you speak in public, speak 100% kansai-ben or 100% standard. どっちかにしろ! Media's influence is too powerful. Especially to children whose brain still learning and imprinting Japanese.
The spoken sounds and the written words are not always the same. Sometimes we drop a consonant as in すいません when you have to say すみません/I'm sorry. I hate this sound dropping and I never use the dropping form. Because すいません means different; 吸いません/I don't smoke. It is sad that now a lot of Japanese believe すいません is not only the speaking form but also it's the correct word itself. And we sometimes add a vowel when speaking as in じょうおう/jouou/queen. It should be じょおう/joou/女王. I have to admit I've been always using the vowel-added form and didn't know the difference. I learned it just recently on TV. But the Japanese linguist says this one is OK. I think the dropping and adding can occurs in any language. A lot of American drop c in picture, don't they? When I first heard it I misheard it as pitcher. As for kansai-ben I don't think I can be a good help. Why don't you ask kansai-ben native Wikipedian in Japanese Wikipedia? I found there are many and they proudly declare they are kansai-ben speakers. -- Oda Mari 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi MacKan. I'm sorry that I wrote something off topic. Please accept my apology. I know the fact that I'm a newcomer could not be an excuse. I should have known the policy. I'll never do something like this again. Promise. No harm taken. --
Oda Mari
14:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I recommend you to visit a homepage named めざせNATIVE関西人. -- Oda Mari 08:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The following line in the Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases section has some significant grammatical issues:
I'm not sure if that's supposed to read, "almost all non-Kansai Japanese call McDonald's "makku"(Mac)," or what it's supposed to say. --
Masamunecyrus
(talk)
(contribs)
13:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm the person who wrote "makudo". I'm sorry that you were confused with my poor English...
I wanted to tell you that 'while almost Japanese people call McDonald's "makku", Kansai people call McDonald' "makudo"'.-- Kyoww 09:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This term isn't defined within the article space, making the hole section not clear. It would be nice to also get some citation on perceptions of politeness.-- Hitsuji Kinno 00:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I feel a bit strange that xx-ben is using to refer to sub-dialect. It goes through commonly, but very colloquial, hence I am not sure if it is appropriate for scientific article which is expected to be on an encyclopedia. Also some part is very unscholatic. For example, Osaka-ben is too vague notion: the dialects in Osaka prefecture are divides five (Downtown, often refered "Semba" dialect, Kawachi dialect, Izumi dialect, Yodo river left bank dialect [or North Settsu dialect] and Yodo river right bank dialect [or Settsu dialect]), and Kobe-ben and one of dialect found in Osaka (Yodo river left bank dialect, commonly called Settsu-ben or Hokusetsu-ben) are considered almost similar by linguists. Also I suspect if there is a confusion of Yodo river left bank dialect, Kobe-ben in its original meaning and Banshu (Harima province) dialect, which were originally spoke in the western part of Kobe city (it belonged to Harima province). Anyway I think this part, Specific dialects, should be rewritten based in academic sources. -- Aphaia 20:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Then, I think one the best contribution you could make is to point out those academic sources so editors can evaluate them. Otherwise, your comments are on the sterile side. Or you can introduce some changes yourself making reference to the sources you mention. -- Firen Drakendorf 02:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that "yaru" in "Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases" is wrong. The account says 'in Standard Japanese only used when referring to giving to somebody well "under" the speaker, such as giving food to a dog'. However, in Kansai-ben used when similar situation, too. -- Kyoww 12:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know a lot about Kansai-ben, but I often hear the first-person singular personal pronoun Wai ( わい) used by Kansai speakers in TV. Also sometimes Wate ( わて) Do you think these should be up here? Evan1975 04:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I wrote these.-- Kyoww 06:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really heard "wai" around Osaka, but I have heard "oi" (plural: "oira"). I suppose if you consider "wai" a dialectal version of "ware," the same may be true of "oi" with respect to "ore," but I have no direct evidence to back this up. -- Julian Grybowski 07:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I looked up "oi" and "oira" in "Kamigata Gogen Jiten ( Kamigata etymology dictionary)", but I couldn't find these words. -- Kyoww 07:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that there should be a separate section for pronouns, anyone agree? I'm pretty new to Wikipedia so I really don't know how to do it correctly... ILuvEire ( talk) 22:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed several expressions described as Kansai-ben that I would claim have been largely absorbed into colloquial Standard Japanese. Specifically:
in increasing order of pervasiveness in Standard Japanese, as far as I can gather. This is just my [educated but not scholarly per se] opinion; anyone agree or disagree? Istaro 13:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree your opinon. Primarily, Standard Japanese was birth from fusion of different dialects. For example, "da" "desu" is from Tokyo, "arigato" "ohayo" is from Kansai, "kora!" is from Kagoshima. "omoroi" "metcha" show that Standard Japanese goes on taking over other dialects.-- Kyoww 15:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The user language templates of Kansai-ben ( Template:User ja-ksb) were finished. If you speak Kansai-ben, let's use the templates in your user page, please.-- Kyoww ( talk) 11:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there some international school in Japan that officially teach Japanese with Osaka-ben ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.29.99.45 ( talk) 12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this page should have kana, instead of romaji. Or maybe both? What sort of policy does Wikipedia have on romanization? ILuvEire ( talk) 03:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
The article says this:
I'm not very experienced with Japanese and certainly not with Kansai-ben, but this Jinnai Tomonori sketch clearly has Jinnai using Kansai-ben and "zo" in the same sentence, at 3:41, when Jinnai says ほんまやらへんぞ. So unless Jinnai's speech is unusual in some way, I wouldn't say that use of "zo" is "nowhere to be found". - furrykef ( Talk at me) 22:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I amended that part.-- Kyoww ( talk) 03:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Nothing seems to be written about the potential form of verbs yet. In Osaka, at least, I see a strong tendency towards treating all potential forms of verbs the same, whether ichidan or godan: verb stem + "-(r)eru" for the affirmative, and the passive form (verb stem + "-(r)arehen") for the negative. For example:
etc.
Ichidan verbs ending in "-seru" ("miseru" plus all causative verbs) also appear to have gained almost a special verb paradigm, combining ichidan and godan characteristics (and at times imperfectly resembling archaic lower nidan verbs), but I can't explain very well. (causative verbs are "-(s)asu" in terminal form but "miseru" is as Standard; "-te" form changes from "-sete" to "-shite", e.g. "mishite" for "misete", "sashite" for "sasete")
I would appreciate thoughts on incorporating such into the article.
-- Julian Grybowski ( talk) 13:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I've attempted to better explain the use of "nen" in Kansai-ben through the use of a chart. Complicating matters are disagreements among my students and my older colleagues as to what is "correct" (generational divide) and my frame of reference, which is Osaka dialect and mainly female speakers. Input and corrections / clarifications below would be welcome before I try and put it on the main article page. -- Julian Grybowski ( talk) 04:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
declarative | echo / simple interrogative | emphatic interrogative | |
---|---|---|---|
verb (present) | Benkyō sun nen. | Benkyō suru n (ya)? | Nani sun nen?! |
verb (progressive) | Benkyō shiten nen. | Benkyō shiteru n (ya)? | Nani shiten nen?! |
verb (past) | Benkyō shiten. | Benkyō shita n (ya)? | Nani shiten?! |
noun + "ya" | Se ya nen. | Sō nan (ya)? | Donai ya nen?! |
I saw the "do" prefix mentioned in the common word list - but isn't it standard dialect/standard slang? ドスケベ for example? 126.59.94.251 ( talk) 15:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
If you've seen the movie "rabukon" maybe you remember the hilarious karaoke scene featuring the song of one (imaginary?) rapper called "umibouzu".
That song (that no one likes except for the two main characters, "risa" and "ootani") is called "yoroshuu gozansu ka?".
But what does the title mean? Is this some dialect for "yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?"?
Thanks.
Contact Basemetal here 05:14, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, yoroshuu gozansu ka? is same to yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?. gozansu is a variety of gozaimasu used in Edo period and early Meiji period. See this page (Japanese) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/78469/m0u/ -- Kyoww ( talk) 13:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
For example, many English language adaptations of manga and anime use Southern American English as a counterpart of Kansai dialect, although Kansai dialect does not usually fit the "bumpkin" image as well as the Southern American English does
Jay Rubin, I'm looking at you.
You have made a dog's dinner out of translating Murakami's アイロンのある風景 using this trope. You even contradict yourself in the exact same section as Ibaraki folk are tarred with the same brush (ie, being "bumpkins"). I understand that you have to translate more than just individual words and sentences, but your attempt at translating 関西弁 here must be recorded as an abject failure, on all levels. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.11.65.153 ( talk) 01:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Virtually all instances of "ya" are given as "ja"; whatever the transliteration style used here (one with which I am unfamiliar), this is not a representation of the pronunciation that the layman, looking at this article, will be likely to apprehend. Perhaps alongside the no-doubt correct- but less-accessible to those who are not linguists- current transliteration system a general representation of how the word is pronounced ought to be provided? For example the section ""好きやねん" /sukija neN/ "I love you" becomes '好っきゃねん' /suQkja neN/" might incorporate in the first instance "suki ya nen" (spaced as preferred/ per consensus) and in the second "sukkya nen" (the latter doubling of the consonant is generally that used in English as far as I've seen to represent the glottal stop of っ in this context).
One reason for the above consideration being worthwhile is other sections- for example "The emphasis or tag question particle jan ka in the casual speech of Kanto changes to yan ka in Kansai. Yan ka has some variations, such as a masculine variation yan ke (in some areas, but yan ke is also used by women) and a shortened variation yan, just like jan in Kanto. Jan ka and jan are used only in informal speech, but yan ka and yan can be used with formal forms like sugoi desu yan! ("It is great!"). Youngsters often use yan naa, the combination of yan and naa for tag question."- drawing a clear distinction between the "j" and "y" sounds, which might generate confusion for the uninitiated reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.195.208 ( talk) 04:12, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
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Need to run that through someone more knowledgable, but one very distinctive feature of Kansai-ben, not covered yet, seems to be heavy tendency to use うち as 1st person pronoun, neglecting all others. mathrick 21:37, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't have an official source (maybe a native Osaka-ben/Kansai-ben speaker can confirm), but during the year and a half I spent in Osaka, I definitely noticed the use of hen instead of the standard Japanese plain negative nai in everyday speech.
example: wakaranai -> wakarahen ["don't understand"]; tabenai -> tabehen ["don't eat"]
Can someone confirm this? -- Gar2chan 07:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that REALLY needs to be in there if it's not already. The past tense is usually henkatta and it's used incredible frequency all over Kansai, and in conjuction with other patterns as well. I won't put that in there yet, b/c i think someone needs to give orginization of the article a bit second thought (moreso the Japanese dialects article though). Also, if the n at the end of verbs isn't in there, that kind of goes in there with hen. That pattern is made by taking the base used in the nai pattern and putting n where nai would go. Past tense can also be done as nkatta, as in orankatta, meaning someone wasn't there (oru is common to be used in place of iru in Kansai regions as well). Alan 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
the "orankatta" isn't specific to Kansaiben though, it's used as far north as in Gifu. And south? I think it stretches even further.
Uchi is often used as a first-person pronoun by girls and young women.
Wakarahen as "don't understand" and taberarehen as "can't eat" are ubiquitous.
Wakaran is just as common but more casual. Wakaran is a contraction of the older Japanese wakaranu rather than a contraction of wakaranai. This applies to all words with negative -n endings.
In Osaka I also tend to hear -te harahen (e.g. itte harahen, isn't here) as the negative form of -te haru. I'm not sure if this is possible in Kyoto as well.
I don't know if orankatta is widespread outside of Kansai, but I know that using oru as "you are" (kanojyo oru? "Do you have a girlfriend?") is not the standard usage (first-person humble).
If anyone can give more feedback on these things, I'll work a bit on the article.
Dekimasu
00:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
More on uchi: my Japanese-Japanese dictionary lists the "I" usage as "mainly Kansai-ben, used by women and children." Dekimasu 00:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The french wikipedia article on kansai-ben has rather a lot more useful/interesting linguistic information than the english one. My french isn't that good or I'd translate it. -
66.251.24.39
02:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Colloquial Kansai Japanese" book is NOT from 2006. It is from 1995! (and Consequently, it somewhat out of date)-- 220.12.252.13 19:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Since no one has commented on this, i've made the change. I have the book in front of me and was first published in 1995 by the Charles E Tuttle Publishing Co., Inc. but has been republished a couple times later. ~nobuyuki -- 220.12.252.13 14:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Reviewing this article, I feel that it should be expanded in two areas:
1.) As noted below, the corresponding article in the French version appears to be far more comprehensive than the page in English. Somebody familiar with all three languages should work on bringing all of this information to the article in English.
2.) A section should be added citing the use of Kansai Dialect by characters in Anime. I am only a casual viewer of Anime, not by any means an enthusiast, yet I can still think of three such characters immediately: Ayumu Kasuga from Azumanga Daioh; The replacement organ company cyborg from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (season 1, episode 8); and Mitsune Konno from Love Hina. I'm sure that anybody who watches more anime than me can find more examples. What I find amusing is that in all three of the above series, the Kansai Dialect ALWAYS becomes a Texas accent in the English dub. This isn't always a negative aspect of the charcter - in fact I really enjoy Ayumu Kasuga's speaking voice and feel that it really adds an endearing quality to the character lovingly referred to as "Miss Osaka" by the rest of the Azumanga Daioh girls. I just think it's interesting that the American distributors of anime on DVD have decided to create a sterotype like this. It would be great if this article could explain exactly why characters from the Kinki region become Texans in the English version - the episode guide from ADV Films only gives a very vague explanation: "[Texas] shares the business-oriented attitude with Osaka as well as the country image that color both the Southern and Osaka accents". If anybody can expand on this, it would be greatly appreciated.
(un-indenting) I don't really think you're doing anybody a favour labelling this an "edit war"... Let's be honest, this is all down to the fact that I called what you wrote "bullshit", please try and rise over that comment instead of taking it personally. What you write is unsourced, and as I've already stated, you're wrong. Why do you then expect me to let it stay until you find a reliable source?? Mackan 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to interject, but I would like to point out that the perception of a dialect of Japanese as "equivalent" to one dialect or another of a separate language is subjective at best, since the phonological, grammatical, and lexical developments and histories (not to mention socioeconomic factors) that characterize any one dialect are unlikely to be replicated with a high degree of commonality between languages. While there are certain points of consensus among certain media (such as the portrayal of Kansai-ben as either Brooklyn or Texan in English dubs of anime), this hardly constitutes a scientific viewpoint. It is merely a way of getting across the notion that a separate dialect is being spoken, and approximating (though not exactly matching) cultural associations such as Manzai / comedy in Kansai-ben. Nonstandard dialects are a problem for any translator, and each one approaches the situation differently; just keep in mind that whatever they do end up using to represent it is only there to give you an idea of Kansai-ben, not to represent it on a one-to-one basis. For what it's worth, a translator could represent Standard Japanese as BBC English, and Kansai-ben as Scouse, or Scots, or even Californian, but that doesn't make such a portrayal a "law" of any sort. -- Julian Grybowski 00:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this section should definitely be in the article. Translating kansai ben into English is a unique challenge, as the accent is often a crucial part of the humor and difficult to get that apart to English speaking audiences. As a reference, in the translator's notes for Magical☆Shopping Arcade Abenobashi the translator discusses why they chose to use a Texas accent for the characters. MightyAtom 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The tag User:Just H has put up reads "The factual accuracy of this article is disputed". What fact on the page are you disputing? Mackan 22:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you write about 河内弁/kawachi-ben in Osaka-ben topic?
Additional from a Japanese. You did not write the formal form. As for ‘へん’, compare‘行きません’ and ‘行きまへん’. I consider ‘行きまへん’ is a S-dropped form of the standerd ‘行きません’. Sorry that I'm not a kansai-ben user. But if I could help, I will. -- Oda Mari 10:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, はじめまして。Sorry that I did not notice the mentions.
The -mahen form is actually uncommon? What do I think? I have no idea about it.
As a standard Japanese speaker, what most irritates me is the kansai-ben 's accent. Especially when someone speaking almost perfect standard, and then he/she puts in a kansai accent noun or two on TV. Like April/sigatu. It's OK if it's a private,personal talk. But on TV not OK. Terrible English, I know. But you know what I mean. It seems to me the accent is the largest difference.
--
Oda Mari
16:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It was very interesting to read all those comments above. What I wanted to tell is that when you speak in public, speak 100% kansai-ben or 100% standard. どっちかにしろ! Media's influence is too powerful. Especially to children whose brain still learning and imprinting Japanese.
The spoken sounds and the written words are not always the same. Sometimes we drop a consonant as in すいません when you have to say すみません/I'm sorry. I hate this sound dropping and I never use the dropping form. Because すいません means different; 吸いません/I don't smoke. It is sad that now a lot of Japanese believe すいません is not only the speaking form but also it's the correct word itself. And we sometimes add a vowel when speaking as in じょうおう/jouou/queen. It should be じょおう/joou/女王. I have to admit I've been always using the vowel-added form and didn't know the difference. I learned it just recently on TV. But the Japanese linguist says this one is OK. I think the dropping and adding can occurs in any language. A lot of American drop c in picture, don't they? When I first heard it I misheard it as pitcher. As for kansai-ben I don't think I can be a good help. Why don't you ask kansai-ben native Wikipedian in Japanese Wikipedia? I found there are many and they proudly declare they are kansai-ben speakers. -- Oda Mari 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi MacKan. I'm sorry that I wrote something off topic. Please accept my apology. I know the fact that I'm a newcomer could not be an excuse. I should have known the policy. I'll never do something like this again. Promise. No harm taken. --
Oda Mari
14:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I recommend you to visit a homepage named めざせNATIVE関西人. -- Oda Mari 08:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The following line in the Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases section has some significant grammatical issues:
I'm not sure if that's supposed to read, "almost all non-Kansai Japanese call McDonald's "makku"(Mac)," or what it's supposed to say. --
Masamunecyrus
(talk)
(contribs)
13:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm the person who wrote "makudo". I'm sorry that you were confused with my poor English...
I wanted to tell you that 'while almost Japanese people call McDonald's "makku", Kansai people call McDonald' "makudo"'.-- Kyoww 09:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This term isn't defined within the article space, making the hole section not clear. It would be nice to also get some citation on perceptions of politeness.-- Hitsuji Kinno 00:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I feel a bit strange that xx-ben is using to refer to sub-dialect. It goes through commonly, but very colloquial, hence I am not sure if it is appropriate for scientific article which is expected to be on an encyclopedia. Also some part is very unscholatic. For example, Osaka-ben is too vague notion: the dialects in Osaka prefecture are divides five (Downtown, often refered "Semba" dialect, Kawachi dialect, Izumi dialect, Yodo river left bank dialect [or North Settsu dialect] and Yodo river right bank dialect [or Settsu dialect]), and Kobe-ben and one of dialect found in Osaka (Yodo river left bank dialect, commonly called Settsu-ben or Hokusetsu-ben) are considered almost similar by linguists. Also I suspect if there is a confusion of Yodo river left bank dialect, Kobe-ben in its original meaning and Banshu (Harima province) dialect, which were originally spoke in the western part of Kobe city (it belonged to Harima province). Anyway I think this part, Specific dialects, should be rewritten based in academic sources. -- Aphaia 20:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Then, I think one the best contribution you could make is to point out those academic sources so editors can evaluate them. Otherwise, your comments are on the sterile side. Or you can introduce some changes yourself making reference to the sources you mention. -- Firen Drakendorf 02:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that "yaru" in "Well-known Kansai-ben vocabulary and phrases" is wrong. The account says 'in Standard Japanese only used when referring to giving to somebody well "under" the speaker, such as giving food to a dog'. However, in Kansai-ben used when similar situation, too. -- Kyoww 12:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know a lot about Kansai-ben, but I often hear the first-person singular personal pronoun Wai ( わい) used by Kansai speakers in TV. Also sometimes Wate ( わて) Do you think these should be up here? Evan1975 04:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I wrote these.-- Kyoww 06:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I haven't really heard "wai" around Osaka, but I have heard "oi" (plural: "oira"). I suppose if you consider "wai" a dialectal version of "ware," the same may be true of "oi" with respect to "ore," but I have no direct evidence to back this up. -- Julian Grybowski 07:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I looked up "oi" and "oira" in "Kamigata Gogen Jiten ( Kamigata etymology dictionary)", but I couldn't find these words. -- Kyoww 07:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that there should be a separate section for pronouns, anyone agree? I'm pretty new to Wikipedia so I really don't know how to do it correctly... ILuvEire ( talk) 22:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed several expressions described as Kansai-ben that I would claim have been largely absorbed into colloquial Standard Japanese. Specifically:
in increasing order of pervasiveness in Standard Japanese, as far as I can gather. This is just my [educated but not scholarly per se] opinion; anyone agree or disagree? Istaro 13:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree your opinon. Primarily, Standard Japanese was birth from fusion of different dialects. For example, "da" "desu" is from Tokyo, "arigato" "ohayo" is from Kansai, "kora!" is from Kagoshima. "omoroi" "metcha" show that Standard Japanese goes on taking over other dialects.-- Kyoww 15:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
The user language templates of Kansai-ben ( Template:User ja-ksb) were finished. If you speak Kansai-ben, let's use the templates in your user page, please.-- Kyoww ( talk) 11:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there some international school in Japan that officially teach Japanese with Osaka-ben ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.29.99.45 ( talk) 12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I think this page should have kana, instead of romaji. Or maybe both? What sort of policy does Wikipedia have on romanization? ILuvEire ( talk) 03:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
The article says this:
I'm not very experienced with Japanese and certainly not with Kansai-ben, but this Jinnai Tomonori sketch clearly has Jinnai using Kansai-ben and "zo" in the same sentence, at 3:41, when Jinnai says ほんまやらへんぞ. So unless Jinnai's speech is unusual in some way, I wouldn't say that use of "zo" is "nowhere to be found". - furrykef ( Talk at me) 22:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I amended that part.-- Kyoww ( talk) 03:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Nothing seems to be written about the potential form of verbs yet. In Osaka, at least, I see a strong tendency towards treating all potential forms of verbs the same, whether ichidan or godan: verb stem + "-(r)eru" for the affirmative, and the passive form (verb stem + "-(r)arehen") for the negative. For example:
etc.
Ichidan verbs ending in "-seru" ("miseru" plus all causative verbs) also appear to have gained almost a special verb paradigm, combining ichidan and godan characteristics (and at times imperfectly resembling archaic lower nidan verbs), but I can't explain very well. (causative verbs are "-(s)asu" in terminal form but "miseru" is as Standard; "-te" form changes from "-sete" to "-shite", e.g. "mishite" for "misete", "sashite" for "sasete")
I would appreciate thoughts on incorporating such into the article.
-- Julian Grybowski ( talk) 13:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I've attempted to better explain the use of "nen" in Kansai-ben through the use of a chart. Complicating matters are disagreements among my students and my older colleagues as to what is "correct" (generational divide) and my frame of reference, which is Osaka dialect and mainly female speakers. Input and corrections / clarifications below would be welcome before I try and put it on the main article page. -- Julian Grybowski ( talk) 04:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
declarative | echo / simple interrogative | emphatic interrogative | |
---|---|---|---|
verb (present) | Benkyō sun nen. | Benkyō suru n (ya)? | Nani sun nen?! |
verb (progressive) | Benkyō shiten nen. | Benkyō shiteru n (ya)? | Nani shiten nen?! |
verb (past) | Benkyō shiten. | Benkyō shita n (ya)? | Nani shiten?! |
noun + "ya" | Se ya nen. | Sō nan (ya)? | Donai ya nen?! |
I saw the "do" prefix mentioned in the common word list - but isn't it standard dialect/standard slang? ドスケベ for example? 126.59.94.251 ( talk) 15:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
If you've seen the movie "rabukon" maybe you remember the hilarious karaoke scene featuring the song of one (imaginary?) rapper called "umibouzu".
That song (that no one likes except for the two main characters, "risa" and "ootani") is called "yoroshuu gozansu ka?".
But what does the title mean? Is this some dialect for "yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?"?
Thanks.
Contact Basemetal here 05:14, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, yoroshuu gozansu ka? is same to yoroshuu gozaimasu ka?. gozansu is a variety of gozaimasu used in Edo period and early Meiji period. See this page (Japanese) http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/78469/m0u/ -- Kyoww ( talk) 13:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
For example, many English language adaptations of manga and anime use Southern American English as a counterpart of Kansai dialect, although Kansai dialect does not usually fit the "bumpkin" image as well as the Southern American English does
Jay Rubin, I'm looking at you.
You have made a dog's dinner out of translating Murakami's アイロンのある風景 using this trope. You even contradict yourself in the exact same section as Ibaraki folk are tarred with the same brush (ie, being "bumpkins"). I understand that you have to translate more than just individual words and sentences, but your attempt at translating 関西弁 here must be recorded as an abject failure, on all levels. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.11.65.153 ( talk) 01:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Virtually all instances of "ya" are given as "ja"; whatever the transliteration style used here (one with which I am unfamiliar), this is not a representation of the pronunciation that the layman, looking at this article, will be likely to apprehend. Perhaps alongside the no-doubt correct- but less-accessible to those who are not linguists- current transliteration system a general representation of how the word is pronounced ought to be provided? For example the section ""好きやねん" /sukija neN/ "I love you" becomes '好っきゃねん' /suQkja neN/" might incorporate in the first instance "suki ya nen" (spaced as preferred/ per consensus) and in the second "sukkya nen" (the latter doubling of the consonant is generally that used in English as far as I've seen to represent the glottal stop of っ in this context).
One reason for the above consideration being worthwhile is other sections- for example "The emphasis or tag question particle jan ka in the casual speech of Kanto changes to yan ka in Kansai. Yan ka has some variations, such as a masculine variation yan ke (in some areas, but yan ke is also used by women) and a shortened variation yan, just like jan in Kanto. Jan ka and jan are used only in informal speech, but yan ka and yan can be used with formal forms like sugoi desu yan! ("It is great!"). Youngsters often use yan naa, the combination of yan and naa for tag question."- drawing a clear distinction between the "j" and "y" sounds, which might generate confusion for the uninitiated reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.195.208 ( talk) 04:12, 14 November 2021 (UTC)