This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kafr Qasim massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is not an article about the village. It's mostly about the massacre which is part of the village history.
I think that this article should be edited, so that most of it will be a paragraph about the history.
What about adding some facts and info about the current village situation ?? ^^
Dod1 10:23, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Translated from the talk page for the corresponding Hebrew entry:
217.132.33.12 12:53, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This article is written in a confusing matter and from a POV perspective. It needs a rewrite.
Guy Montag 01:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would you give us a hint why you totally dispute this article's neutrality and factual accuracy?-- Doron 02:29, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'd be happy too. I need a little time to write a comprehensive argument.
Guy Montag 02:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually the article is quite accurate and balanced. -- Zero 16:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree.
Guy Montag 21:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I put it all in the right order and I noted my commentary on the subject inside the article and where sources should be cited. The problem with this article is that it is based on specific texts that not everyone has access too. So The sources could be biased, the wording could be biased, something could have been withheld. There is no way to check this, and I've assumed mostly good faith, although the wording has led me to doubt it.
Guy Montag 21:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When I was reading the article I believed that there were alot of contextual gaps. First it was talking about the Jordanians going to war, then it starts quoting the commanders. I think that part should be filled with contextual information, and everything that was court related to be during the trial.
Guy Montag 21:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "What was the motivation for the cerfew?" Well, "it was expected that Jordan would enter the conflict on Egypt's side" and it was imposed "upon all Arab villages in the area close to the Jordanian border". Aren't those two statements sufficient to clarify the reason? - Mustafaa 21:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "Why is none of thus sourced properly?" I can only disagree. I much prefer an article sourced from books than from webpages; books tend to be better-researched, less POV, and more reliable. - Mustafaa 21:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not doubt that. The problem is that although I so very much want to assume good faith, I have to be a little suspicious when dealing with the Arab Israeli conflict. I value other people's pov, but something I cannot verify becomes an elitist edit that only few individuals with access can verify. There were also times when people used book names and pages that did not fit with the information provided, most notably the Revisionist Zionism article, which I had to painstakingly fix through proper book references. In theory, I love book sources, in practice I fear misuse. I have no doubt that the events happened, I just want readers to have the whole picture. I am interested too as I am only finding information from one sided sources.
Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "Where is the information after this, why the sudden random break?" This I agree with; I think the reason is that it happened the same day, but the article needs to make that clear. - Mustafaa 21:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would be happy to cooperate with you in fixing this information.
Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have identified problems with this article and Mustafaa has agreed with me. Why dont you contribute something to the talk page other than your overt hostility? I showed what is wrong, if you don't want to add material to fix the article, don't respond with pointless tangents. Unless you didn't know, all the information on the net about this article comes from socialist/Islamist sources, and duplicated wikipedia pages. Unless accounts from the other side are provided, it will remain an incomplete article.
Guy Montag 08:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've made substantial contextual and accuracy changes to the article. I've removed a quote wrongfully attributed to Malinki (some philosopher made it), fixed the amount killed, added background about the military administration from 1948-1966 (very important, I can't believe it was left out), fixed sentence structure and npoved the wording. I've also added some more aftermath information, and added notes on things that still need to be looked at. Although it is not fully done, I think the changes I made have substantially improved the quality of the article to the point where individual changes can be made. I await commentary on the edit. At least now we know where to go from.
Guy Montag 12:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am out of time today. Many of your deletions are going back. The story of the "grush" is not from a US newspaper, but very famous. Every Israeli who is old enough remembers it. You can find it on page 411 of Robinson's article (congratulations for actually reading something; the link you gave doesn't work for people who didn't pay, though). The story of the cordon around the village is also from Robinson and is also going back. -- Zero 15:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The link is a free copy I found. I've reinserted the Robinson cited quotes. In the future, watch your tone, I don't appreciate condescending attitude from you when I have done nothing other than cooperate.
Guy Montag 22:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Was Judge Halevy's insistance on disobeying illegal orders a clarification on the already established "Purity of Arms" military doctrine, or was it an addition to it?
Guy Montag 01:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So, what else needs work in this article? It looks pretty good to me.
Guy Montag 00:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, the article works fine, perhaps it is your connection. If you are still having a problem, I suggest a public library computer, or I can save the document and e-mail it to you. Also, could you please eleborate about the "nine seperate instances"? Because now it reads awkwardly. Hmm, I haven't heard of an english version for that operation, and the previous article was originally in Hebrew.
Guy Montag 03:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Numbers problem again. This says [ [2]] 47 died. Arab sources say 49. What do we put?
Guy Montag 06:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why did you change 4:30 to 3:30? Robinson clearly says 4:30. -- Zero 09:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This says 3:30. It also says 47 people died. How do we solve this? It would be very illogical if 350 some people were able to return from as far as Ramle and Jaffa in 30 minutes. Obviously either Robinson got the time wrong or David Shipler has it wrong.
Guy Montag 09:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Let's remove that tag! Any remaining problems must be very minor. -- Zero 10:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Roger that.
Guy Montag 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this should be noted in the article? Also, is it possible to translate this article to Hebrew? It improves on the original.
Guy Montag 00:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The "Little Triangle" consists of the seven Arab communities of Jaljulye, Kafr Bara, Kafr Qasim, Qalansawe, Tayibe, Tire and Zemer. The "Triangle" in the north consists of twelve Arab communities.--
Doron 07:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Zero's edit summary for 12.07 13 June: "Shadmi was IDF, not BP; most infiltration was not fedayeen; Arabs were citizens." Fedayeen were overwhelmingly Palestinians, while infiltrators were most often Palestinian villagers: this was not clearly expressed. I hope that explains it.
In any case, in relation to your remark that you basically wrote the page with someone else, articles in Wikipedia are not subject to the copyright of the people who wrote them, so if something is simply badly expressed it is not necessary to ask anyone's permission to change it on the talk page.
In addition, deleting words which change the meaning (or make the meaning harder to get at, as in this case) is not a minor edit and should not be marked as such. See Wikipedia:Minor_edit. Palmiro 17:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Could you clarify what you mean by Palestinian villegers? I wasn't expressing any copywritten right, I was noting that I have a very large understanding of the article.
Guy Montag 18:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood you. Historically, many infiltrators were Palestinian villagers (also Bedouin, but I don't know that there were many of them in that area), either inhabitants of villages on the Jordanian side of the Green Line who owned lands on the other side, or refugees from villages on the other side. The reasons for infiltration included pasturing animals (particularly for the Bedouin), tending land and getting agricultural produce (most often in the earliest years after 1948), and smuggling, inter alia. My point is that the fedayeen were generally Palestinians as well, whereas if you say "Palestinians and fedayeen" it incorrectly leaves the impression that the fedayeen were of another nationality. Hope that's clearer. Palmiro 18:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Many fedayeen were of Egyptian and Syrian origin.
Guy Montag 03:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to edit this article, with the statement and cite "However, 50 years have passed since the Kafr Qasim massacre, and the "Black Flag Defense" has failed to protect any IDF serviceman from conviction for "refusing to obey orders" eg [3]".
The statement I added has been summararily deleted, with no attempt at any form of explanation or discussion. The words quoted come from Israeli servicemen - they cannot possible be unacceptably Palestinian POV. (and it's very unlikely that they're unreliable - though I'd struggle to prove a negative).
I have no intention of stooping to edit-war, but I think these words should go back. PalestineRemembered 20:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that my attempt to bring this feature into the article has again been reverted, and with no attempt at discussion or consensus.
I'm not interested in an edit-war over this edit or any other - but I have to wonder about the intentions of editors who make no attempt to come to a consensus or use the Talk pages.
PalestineRemembered 21:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that this insertion is original research, but I have to say that I don't like it much and would not personally put it in the article. The reliability of the source for this information is dubious because it doesn't relate directly to the subject on which the source is expert (the opinions and fortunes of the refusers-to-serve). But mainly I dislike it because it is incomplete and potentially misleading. The most literal interprettation would be "no soldier has been charged for disobeying an order and then successfully used the black flag defence". Maybe that is true, I don't know. But that is not the most likely way a soldier would be defended by the principle. In a case so blatant that the black flag defence would be likely to succeed, the soldier would probably not be charged. The military would prefer such cases to disappear from public exposure as soon as possible, not to give them the publicity of a court case that might even lead to an embarrassing failure. -- Zero talk 14:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Suggest renaming to something more neutral like "Qasim incident" or "Qasim raid" Rune X2 14:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
On 18 October 2008, Haaretz published a long and important article ( Do the right thing, by Dalia Karpel) on the soldiers who refused to carry out the orders and kill civilians in other villages. As well as interviews with surviving soldiers (some of whom had never previously spoken about the events), the article includes speculation about Malinki's motivations, and details of Operation Hafarferet ("Mole"). This article adds substantially to our understanding both of the context of this massacre, and of the moral dilemmas of some of those involved. Unless someone beats me to it, I propose to include some of this material in the article. RolandR ( talk) 09:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The section on Operation Hafarferet concludes that "Rosenthal found no evidence that the killings were part of the plan or in any way pre-planned" and that "a similar opinion is held by historian Adam Raz and given in a testiminy of Shadmi shortly befor his death". Aside from the fact that the English should cleaned up, the article cited regarding Raz's opinion and Shadmi's testimony (General's Final Confession Links 1956 Massacre to Israel's Secret Plan to Expel Arabs. Haaretz, October 11, 2018) comes to exactly the opposite conclusion, stating for example that "Raz's study ... proves his claim that there is a connection between the massacre and the secret operation [that is, Operation Hafarferet]." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sganot ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it would be nice to add that this incident is being taught in israeli schools to high school students. the incident is talked about at the class and in school text books, it is given as an example of an illegal order that should not be carried out. from it students learn that they have an obligation not to carry our orders that are against some international values. in my opinion it would be a good addition to the article that at least the lesson is being learned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrZaf ( talk • contribs) 14:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello -- I saw that Robinson was already used as a source within the article, yet without giving her perspective on the ceremony, which I don't think was acceptable (both source usage-wise and NPOV-wise). I added it, corroborated by Slyomovics, 2008. This also seems to give due weight to more recent secondary (academic quality) sources, as opposed to period articles or (then) nearly-primary Davar, which the official recollection is based upon. What do you think? Best, — Ireilly talk 10:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."
I disagree.
Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.
It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.
It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki (talk) 08:50, 17 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Improvethewiki ( talk • contribs)
I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."
I disagree.
Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.
It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.
It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki ( talk) 09:24, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
This is the opening summary as it now stands:
"The Kafr Qasim massacre took place in the Israeli Arab village of Kafr Qasim situated on the Green Line, at that time, the de facto border between Israel and the Jordanian West Bank on October 29, 1956. It was carried out by the Israel Border Police (Magav) and resulted in 48 Arab civilians dead, including 6 women and 23 children aged 8–17. Arab sources usually give the death toll as 49, as they include the unborn child of one of the women.
The border policemen who were involved in the shooting were brought to trial and found guilty and sentenced to prison terms, but all received pardons and were released in a year.[1] The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents).[2] The Israeli court found that the command to kill civilians was “blatantly illegal”.[3]
In December 2007, President of Israel Shimon Peres formally apologised for the massacre.[4]"
In my view, the function of the opening summary is to provide the fundamental facts of the subject. I consider this summary to fail in this.
This summary provides no indication of context. There is no reference to the facts that provide any explanation of how or why this occurred.
Therefore, I added the following 3-sentence paragraph to the opening summary:
"The underlying basis of relations between the two communities was most crudely unveiled on the night of 28 October 1956. The peaceful villagers of Kfar Kassem were massacred as they returned home from the fields, unknowingly violating a curfew that had ben hastily imposed on the eve of the Sinai war. The officers responsible for the killing were indeed court-martialed, but were later amnestied." [4]
This provides context, connects this event to the other major event occurring at that time in 1956, and it constitutes solely a direct quotation from a respected text (A Modern History of Israel, by Noah Lucas), with no additional comment or editorializing on my part.
This edit was instantly removed in its entirety, with the explanation that it added nothing. I disagree.
My subsequent efforts to bring about a discussion of this instant deletion, with the administrator who performed it, have gone without response, which I continue to invite. Improvethewiki ( talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
@
Zero0000: Hi! Sorry to bother and I know it's petty, but isn't there another better form for indicating the source than placing the authors' surnames between brackets after a full-stop, with another full-stop after the closing bracket? Like for instance here:
His symbolic punishment [...] became a standard metaphor in Israeli polemic debate. (Robinson, Lipmann, Bilsky).
Thanks, and a happy 2016 to you!
Arminden (
talk) 19:15, 3 January 2016 (UTC)Arminden
Arminden (
talk) 19:15, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Wow... You really did sea with your own eyes the archaeopteryx fly and Jesus walk the waters... On the other hand, it's been three decades since I've started moving from one country to the next and writing my own unsourceable database. Arminden ( talk) 22:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)Arminden Arminden ( talk) 22:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 5 external links on
Kafr Qasim massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:32, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kafr Qasim massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I dont know if the second paragraph is misleading or a blatant lie, but the accused soldiers were in prison for more than a year, despite what you wrote. for example, here is an article from the Israeli newspaper ma'ariv, that states that shmuel melinki was in jail for 3 years and 4 months, before he was released because of his medical condition. because the article is protected, i would like to ask an editor that have the permission to edit it, to fix it. Zeze62 ( talk) 11:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I have nominated the page for OTD, but there are some unsourced paragraphs which need to be verified by reliable sources. @ Zero0000 and Huldra: I don't know if I can ask you take a look at it. -- Mhhossein talk 13:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
I didn't see any proof that all the killers received pardons Red Gabriel ( talk) 20:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like to (in the background > Timeline section of the article) add as an example the names of two of the Israeli field commanders that ordered their subordinates to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders. The names are "Yehuda Frankental" and "", so that the last paragraph of the section i mentioned will read:
"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration. Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "
and not
"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "
i reference the following sources:
1 This 2008 Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000
2 The Hebrew Wikipedia article about the massacre in the third paragraph of its "massacre" section https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%91%D7%97_%D7%9B%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%9D
The translation of the Dalia Karpel's article in the English Haaretz is Do the right thing, Oct 17, 2008. I can't tell if it is paywalled because I have a subscription, but if it is I can send a copy to anyone who asks by email. I think it is a good idea to list the local commanders who did not obey the order to kill, and since there weren't very many we can aim for a complete list. Gerbillus, can you help with that? There were eight villages including Kafr Qasim. Frankenthal was in charge of four, and gave orders to those four local commanders that prevented a massacre there. Haim Levy was in charge of the other four villages and left the local commanders to decide for themselves what to do (our text has that wrong). Three of them (Arye Menashes, Nimrod Lampert and Binyamin Kol) didn't murder anyone, but Gavriel Dahan (assigned to Kafr Qasim) did. All this needs checking. If the transcript of the trial has been published yet, there is supposed to be a complete description of the command structure. Zero talk 06:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. No need to keep this request open while sources are being researched.
Xan747 (
talk) 02:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
For example, Yehuda Frankental who, on his own initiative, refused Shadmi's orders. Jaim Levi, however, did not directly refuse orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise their own moral judgement.ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 20:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Fix typo by changing "int school syllabuses" into "in school syllabuses". Daniel R. Adam ( talk) 21:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Kafr Qasim massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is not an article about the village. It's mostly about the massacre which is part of the village history.
I think that this article should be edited, so that most of it will be a paragraph about the history.
What about adding some facts and info about the current village situation ?? ^^
Dod1 10:23, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Translated from the talk page for the corresponding Hebrew entry:
217.132.33.12 12:53, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This article is written in a confusing matter and from a POV perspective. It needs a rewrite.
Guy Montag 01:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Would you give us a hint why you totally dispute this article's neutrality and factual accuracy?-- Doron 02:29, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'd be happy too. I need a little time to write a comprehensive argument.
Guy Montag 02:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually the article is quite accurate and balanced. -- Zero 16:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree.
Guy Montag 21:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I put it all in the right order and I noted my commentary on the subject inside the article and where sources should be cited. The problem with this article is that it is based on specific texts that not everyone has access too. So The sources could be biased, the wording could be biased, something could have been withheld. There is no way to check this, and I've assumed mostly good faith, although the wording has led me to doubt it.
Guy Montag 21:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
When I was reading the article I believed that there were alot of contextual gaps. First it was talking about the Jordanians going to war, then it starts quoting the commanders. I think that part should be filled with contextual information, and everything that was court related to be during the trial.
Guy Montag 21:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "What was the motivation for the cerfew?" Well, "it was expected that Jordan would enter the conflict on Egypt's side" and it was imposed "upon all Arab villages in the area close to the Jordanian border". Aren't those two statements sufficient to clarify the reason? - Mustafaa 21:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "Why is none of thus sourced properly?" I can only disagree. I much prefer an article sourced from books than from webpages; books tend to be better-researched, less POV, and more reliable. - Mustafaa 21:54, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not doubt that. The problem is that although I so very much want to assume good faith, I have to be a little suspicious when dealing with the Arab Israeli conflict. I value other people's pov, but something I cannot verify becomes an elitist edit that only few individuals with access can verify. There were also times when people used book names and pages that did not fit with the information provided, most notably the Revisionist Zionism article, which I had to painstakingly fix through proper book references. In theory, I love book sources, in practice I fear misuse. I have no doubt that the events happened, I just want readers to have the whole picture. I am interested too as I am only finding information from one sided sources.
Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You ask "Where is the information after this, why the sudden random break?" This I agree with; I think the reason is that it happened the same day, but the article needs to make that clear. - Mustafaa 21:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would be happy to cooperate with you in fixing this information.
Guy Montag 00:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have identified problems with this article and Mustafaa has agreed with me. Why dont you contribute something to the talk page other than your overt hostility? I showed what is wrong, if you don't want to add material to fix the article, don't respond with pointless tangents. Unless you didn't know, all the information on the net about this article comes from socialist/Islamist sources, and duplicated wikipedia pages. Unless accounts from the other side are provided, it will remain an incomplete article.
Guy Montag 08:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've made substantial contextual and accuracy changes to the article. I've removed a quote wrongfully attributed to Malinki (some philosopher made it), fixed the amount killed, added background about the military administration from 1948-1966 (very important, I can't believe it was left out), fixed sentence structure and npoved the wording. I've also added some more aftermath information, and added notes on things that still need to be looked at. Although it is not fully done, I think the changes I made have substantially improved the quality of the article to the point where individual changes can be made. I await commentary on the edit. At least now we know where to go from.
Guy Montag 12:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am out of time today. Many of your deletions are going back. The story of the "grush" is not from a US newspaper, but very famous. Every Israeli who is old enough remembers it. You can find it on page 411 of Robinson's article (congratulations for actually reading something; the link you gave doesn't work for people who didn't pay, though). The story of the cordon around the village is also from Robinson and is also going back. -- Zero 15:43, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The link is a free copy I found. I've reinserted the Robinson cited quotes. In the future, watch your tone, I don't appreciate condescending attitude from you when I have done nothing other than cooperate.
Guy Montag 22:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Was Judge Halevy's insistance on disobeying illegal orders a clarification on the already established "Purity of Arms" military doctrine, or was it an addition to it?
Guy Montag 01:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So, what else needs work in this article? It looks pretty good to me.
Guy Montag 00:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, the article works fine, perhaps it is your connection. If you are still having a problem, I suggest a public library computer, or I can save the document and e-mail it to you. Also, could you please eleborate about the "nine seperate instances"? Because now it reads awkwardly. Hmm, I haven't heard of an english version for that operation, and the previous article was originally in Hebrew.
Guy Montag 03:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Numbers problem again. This says [ [2]] 47 died. Arab sources say 49. What do we put?
Guy Montag 06:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why did you change 4:30 to 3:30? Robinson clearly says 4:30. -- Zero 09:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This says 3:30. It also says 47 people died. How do we solve this? It would be very illogical if 350 some people were able to return from as far as Ramle and Jaffa in 30 minutes. Obviously either Robinson got the time wrong or David Shipler has it wrong.
Guy Montag 09:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Let's remove that tag! Any remaining problems must be very minor. -- Zero 10:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Roger that.
Guy Montag 16:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps this should be noted in the article? Also, is it possible to translate this article to Hebrew? It improves on the original.
Guy Montag 00:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The "Little Triangle" consists of the seven Arab communities of Jaljulye, Kafr Bara, Kafr Qasim, Qalansawe, Tayibe, Tire and Zemer. The "Triangle" in the north consists of twelve Arab communities.--
Doron 07:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
See Zero's edit summary for 12.07 13 June: "Shadmi was IDF, not BP; most infiltration was not fedayeen; Arabs were citizens." Fedayeen were overwhelmingly Palestinians, while infiltrators were most often Palestinian villagers: this was not clearly expressed. I hope that explains it.
In any case, in relation to your remark that you basically wrote the page with someone else, articles in Wikipedia are not subject to the copyright of the people who wrote them, so if something is simply badly expressed it is not necessary to ask anyone's permission to change it on the talk page.
In addition, deleting words which change the meaning (or make the meaning harder to get at, as in this case) is not a minor edit and should not be marked as such. See Wikipedia:Minor_edit. Palmiro 17:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Could you clarify what you mean by Palestinian villegers? I wasn't expressing any copywritten right, I was noting that I have a very large understanding of the article.
Guy Montag 18:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood you. Historically, many infiltrators were Palestinian villagers (also Bedouin, but I don't know that there were many of them in that area), either inhabitants of villages on the Jordanian side of the Green Line who owned lands on the other side, or refugees from villages on the other side. The reasons for infiltration included pasturing animals (particularly for the Bedouin), tending land and getting agricultural produce (most often in the earliest years after 1948), and smuggling, inter alia. My point is that the fedayeen were generally Palestinians as well, whereas if you say "Palestinians and fedayeen" it incorrectly leaves the impression that the fedayeen were of another nationality. Hope that's clearer. Palmiro 18:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Many fedayeen were of Egyptian and Syrian origin.
Guy Montag 03:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to edit this article, with the statement and cite "However, 50 years have passed since the Kafr Qasim massacre, and the "Black Flag Defense" has failed to protect any IDF serviceman from conviction for "refusing to obey orders" eg [3]".
The statement I added has been summararily deleted, with no attempt at any form of explanation or discussion. The words quoted come from Israeli servicemen - they cannot possible be unacceptably Palestinian POV. (and it's very unlikely that they're unreliable - though I'd struggle to prove a negative).
I have no intention of stooping to edit-war, but I think these words should go back. PalestineRemembered 20:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that my attempt to bring this feature into the article has again been reverted, and with no attempt at discussion or consensus.
I'm not interested in an edit-war over this edit or any other - but I have to wonder about the intentions of editors who make no attempt to come to a consensus or use the Talk pages.
PalestineRemembered 21:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that this insertion is original research, but I have to say that I don't like it much and would not personally put it in the article. The reliability of the source for this information is dubious because it doesn't relate directly to the subject on which the source is expert (the opinions and fortunes of the refusers-to-serve). But mainly I dislike it because it is incomplete and potentially misleading. The most literal interprettation would be "no soldier has been charged for disobeying an order and then successfully used the black flag defence". Maybe that is true, I don't know. But that is not the most likely way a soldier would be defended by the principle. In a case so blatant that the black flag defence would be likely to succeed, the soldier would probably not be charged. The military would prefer such cases to disappear from public exposure as soon as possible, not to give them the publicity of a court case that might even lead to an embarrassing failure. -- Zero talk 14:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Suggest renaming to something more neutral like "Qasim incident" or "Qasim raid" Rune X2 14:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
On 18 October 2008, Haaretz published a long and important article ( Do the right thing, by Dalia Karpel) on the soldiers who refused to carry out the orders and kill civilians in other villages. As well as interviews with surviving soldiers (some of whom had never previously spoken about the events), the article includes speculation about Malinki's motivations, and details of Operation Hafarferet ("Mole"). This article adds substantially to our understanding both of the context of this massacre, and of the moral dilemmas of some of those involved. Unless someone beats me to it, I propose to include some of this material in the article. RolandR ( talk) 09:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The section on Operation Hafarferet concludes that "Rosenthal found no evidence that the killings were part of the plan or in any way pre-planned" and that "a similar opinion is held by historian Adam Raz and given in a testiminy of Shadmi shortly befor his death". Aside from the fact that the English should cleaned up, the article cited regarding Raz's opinion and Shadmi's testimony (General's Final Confession Links 1956 Massacre to Israel's Secret Plan to Expel Arabs. Haaretz, October 11, 2018) comes to exactly the opposite conclusion, stating for example that "Raz's study ... proves his claim that there is a connection between the massacre and the secret operation [that is, Operation Hafarferet]." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sganot ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it would be nice to add that this incident is being taught in israeli schools to high school students. the incident is talked about at the class and in school text books, it is given as an example of an illegal order that should not be carried out. from it students learn that they have an obligation not to carry our orders that are against some international values. in my opinion it would be a good addition to the article that at least the lesson is being learned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrZaf ( talk • contribs) 14:44, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Hello -- I saw that Robinson was already used as a source within the article, yet without giving her perspective on the ceremony, which I don't think was acceptable (both source usage-wise and NPOV-wise). I added it, corroborated by Slyomovics, 2008. This also seems to give due weight to more recent secondary (academic quality) sources, as opposed to period articles or (then) nearly-primary Davar, which the official recollection is based upon. What do you think? Best, — Ireilly talk 10:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."
I disagree.
Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.
It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.
It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki (talk) 08:50, 17 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Improvethewiki ( talk • contribs)
I see that my edit to the article about the Kafr Qasim massacre, which added the quotation from the first comprehensive modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas (1975) was completely removed with the remark that it "added nothing."
I disagree.
Lucas' history is not focused on such events. It is a general history.
It is therefore that much more notable that he cites this particular event as emblematic of the fundamental relationship that existed between Jews and Arabs in the long aftermath of the 1948 war, taking place when these areas remained under martial law that had been imposed during British mandatory rule in response to actions by Jewish settlers, and highly resented by them, but then kept in place.
It is also to be noted that in the introduction as it now stands, there is no mention of the fact that the Arab villagers were killed as they returned from the fields unaware that a curfew had been placed, even though this fact was addressed in much greater detail in the body of the article, as is very appropriate and helps to explain in part how the event occurred. Improvethewiki ( talk) 09:24, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
This is the opening summary as it now stands:
"The Kafr Qasim massacre took place in the Israeli Arab village of Kafr Qasim situated on the Green Line, at that time, the de facto border between Israel and the Jordanian West Bank on October 29, 1956. It was carried out by the Israel Border Police (Magav) and resulted in 48 Arab civilians dead, including 6 women and 23 children aged 8–17. Arab sources usually give the death toll as 49, as they include the unborn child of one of the women.
The border policemen who were involved in the shooting were brought to trial and found guilty and sentenced to prison terms, but all received pardons and were released in a year.[1] The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents).[2] The Israeli court found that the command to kill civilians was “blatantly illegal”.[3]
In December 2007, President of Israel Shimon Peres formally apologised for the massacre.[4]"
In my view, the function of the opening summary is to provide the fundamental facts of the subject. I consider this summary to fail in this.
This summary provides no indication of context. There is no reference to the facts that provide any explanation of how or why this occurred.
Therefore, I added the following 3-sentence paragraph to the opening summary:
"The underlying basis of relations between the two communities was most crudely unveiled on the night of 28 October 1956. The peaceful villagers of Kfar Kassem were massacred as they returned home from the fields, unknowingly violating a curfew that had ben hastily imposed on the eve of the Sinai war. The officers responsible for the killing were indeed court-martialed, but were later amnestied." [4]
This provides context, connects this event to the other major event occurring at that time in 1956, and it constitutes solely a direct quotation from a respected text (A Modern History of Israel, by Noah Lucas), with no additional comment or editorializing on my part.
This edit was instantly removed in its entirety, with the explanation that it added nothing. I disagree.
My subsequent efforts to bring about a discussion of this instant deletion, with the administrator who performed it, have gone without response, which I continue to invite. Improvethewiki ( talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
@
Zero0000: Hi! Sorry to bother and I know it's petty, but isn't there another better form for indicating the source than placing the authors' surnames between brackets after a full-stop, with another full-stop after the closing bracket? Like for instance here:
His symbolic punishment [...] became a standard metaphor in Israeli polemic debate. (Robinson, Lipmann, Bilsky).
Thanks, and a happy 2016 to you!
Arminden (
talk) 19:15, 3 January 2016 (UTC)Arminden
Arminden (
talk) 19:15, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Wow... You really did sea with your own eyes the archaeopteryx fly and Jesus walk the waters... On the other hand, it's been three decades since I've started moving from one country to the next and writing my own unsourceable database. Arminden ( talk) 22:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)Arminden Arminden ( talk) 22:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 5 external links on
Kafr Qasim massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:32, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Kafr Qasim massacre. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:38, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I dont know if the second paragraph is misleading or a blatant lie, but the accused soldiers were in prison for more than a year, despite what you wrote. for example, here is an article from the Israeli newspaper ma'ariv, that states that shmuel melinki was in jail for 3 years and 4 months, before he was released because of his medical condition. because the article is protected, i would like to ask an editor that have the permission to edit it, to fix it. Zeze62 ( talk) 11:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
I have nominated the page for OTD, but there are some unsourced paragraphs which need to be verified by reliable sources. @ Zero0000 and Huldra: I don't know if I can ask you take a look at it. -- Mhhossein talk 13:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
I didn't see any proof that all the killers received pardons Red Gabriel ( talk) 20:22, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like to (in the background > Timeline section of the article) add as an example the names of two of the Israeli field commanders that ordered their subordinates to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders. The names are "Yehuda Frankental" and "", so that the last paragraph of the section i mentioned will read:
"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Notably Yehuda Frankental, who on his own initiative refused Shadmi's orders. And Jaim Levi, who did not directly refused orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise independent moral consideration. Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "
and not
"No villagers in other villages under Shadmi's control were shot, because local commanders gave direct orders to disobey Shadmi's and Malinki's orders by holding fire.[citation needed] Also, among the platoons stationed in Kafr Qasim itself, only the one led by Dahan actually opened fire.[15]: 656 "
i reference the following sources:
1 This 2008 Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/2008-10-05/ty-article/0000017f-f75c-d5bd-a17f-f77ea6c30000
2 The Hebrew Wikipedia article about the massacre in the third paragraph of its "massacre" section https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%91%D7%97_%D7%9B%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%A7%D7%90%D7%A1%D7%9D
The translation of the Dalia Karpel's article in the English Haaretz is Do the right thing, Oct 17, 2008. I can't tell if it is paywalled because I have a subscription, but if it is I can send a copy to anyone who asks by email. I think it is a good idea to list the local commanders who did not obey the order to kill, and since there weren't very many we can aim for a complete list. Gerbillus, can you help with that? There were eight villages including Kafr Qasim. Frankenthal was in charge of four, and gave orders to those four local commanders that prevented a massacre there. Haim Levy was in charge of the other four villages and left the local commanders to decide for themselves what to do (our text has that wrong). Three of them (Arye Menashes, Nimrod Lampert and Binyamin Kol) didn't murder anyone, but Gavriel Dahan (assigned to Kafr Qasim) did. All this needs checking. If the transcript of the trial has been published yet, there is supposed to be a complete description of the command structure. Zero talk 06:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. No need to keep this request open while sources are being researched.
Xan747 (
talk) 02:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
For example, Yehuda Frankental who, on his own initiative, refused Shadmi's orders. Jaim Levi, however, did not directly refuse orders but allowed his platoon commanders to exercise their own moral judgement.ARandomName123 ( talk)Ping me! 20:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Fix typo by changing "int school syllabuses" into "in school syllabuses". Daniel R. Adam ( talk) 21:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)