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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I'd like the article to include the "slavonic josephus texts". i've read about them when used as a reference in a book. the text describes Jesus and James, it chronicled the events before, during and after the crucifixition, and it even says (as claimed by the book) that Josephus described Jesus' physical features based on the wanted poster by the roman authorities. Also, i'd like the article include details on "early christian censorship" (if there are any) and to which extent (if any) the works of Josephus censored or edited which might explain (if any exists) why the mention of Jesus by Josephus in his works to be scarce. thx a lot. -- Rebskii 17:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC) rebskii
Can Doc Glasgow explain why there is even a need for compromise? I didn't know there was a conflict. I thought my changes were fairly simple and obvious but I will explain them. It is anachronistic to call the Hebrew Bible "Old Testament" (which is a part of the Christian Bible) here for two reasons. First, the Old Testament did not even exist back then -- the Christian Bible was not canonized unbtil much later. Second, Josephus himself certainly did not consider any of the books of the Bible he was referring to as "Old Testament." Finally, it should be obvious and uncontentious that Josephus is much more important to Jewish history than to Christian history. Most scholars do not think he says much at all about Jesus and Christians, period. I am not denying that scholars of Christianity may read Josephus and certainly didn't make any edit that leaves this out, but it is certainly secondary to the importance to Jewish history. -- Slrubenstein | Talk 23:42, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, granted 'Old Testament' is an anachronism, but then so too is 'Hebrew Bible' (which is a modern scholarly construct). Josephus in fact largely uses the LXX and not the Masoritic text. If we are pedantic about this, the article becomes unintelligible to the non-expert. The 'great figures' he speaks of are those we currently find in both the Jewish Tanakh and the Christian Old Testament (which are related but not identical) - that is why I suggested that both designations should be used.
...The vast majority of critical scholarship today accepts the majority of the Testimonium Flavianum. While there is indeed Christian interpolation, there is astounding evidence that Josephus indeed mentions Jesus at the core of that passage. I have contacted a few Josephus scholars and they denied the claim that the Testimonium Flavianum is out of context. One even stated, "The claim that the TF cuts off the narrative flow is totally worthless. In both places (the TF and Antiquities 20:200) that Jesus is mentioned in Josephus, the text correlates admirably with the context." - Dr. Paul Maier. bmar87 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Humus sapiens has changed some of the AD/BC terminology to BCE/CE with the edit comment "please use BCE/CE at least in Jewish-related articles". I was tempted to revert these changes on the grounds:
However, in a spirit of generosity – and to avoid dispute, I am going to change all notation to a double notation of BCE/BC and CE/AD – I place the ‘Common era’ notation first in sensitivity to the ‘Jewish’ interest nature of the article. I hope this can be accepted in the spirit in which it is offered. -- Doc (?) 19:07, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Dual symbols just look bad - and confusing. I'm sure that before I ever ventured onto Wikipedia, if I saw such a thing, I'd just not know what it meant and give up reading an article because I'd reason it wasn't written with me in mind. I'm not really sure what the motivation of dual notation was, but it seems unlikely to have been with the reader in mind - which I'd have thought should be the only deciding factor. With readers in mind, I'd have thought we'd have gone for terminology understood by everyone worldwide (ie "AD").
Incidentally, I have been told that the MoS currently supports removing all date modifiers where there are no BC years in an article (although I must admit that as I'm unfamiliar with American academic-speak, I just can't follow what it says at present anyway). I still prefer this approach, as I believe people would read a date without a modifier as being AD, jguk 18:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Generally, I agree - that AD etc should not be used when it is clearly needed. 1492 AD is unnecessary. But it is conventional, when the subject is in antiquity to use modifiers at least at first mention, for the avoidance of doubt. Here, I think one entry would be sufficient. Personally, I don't care for the double entry CE/AD - most academic works use a single style - but Wikipedia seems unable to agree one. Since AD was used here first, I am happy with a single AD - but, as others came and changed that, I sought a compromise. -- Doc (?) 18:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not being possessive, and I'm not claiming my POV should triumph. This article was originaly AD (and I am not the creator). The was an attempt to change it to CE - but there is no consensus for such a change - and I think we can agree that attempts to find a consensus on a preferred system are doomed. I substituted the dual system as an attempt to avoid an unresolvable edit war. Yes, it is unsatisfactory - but then most compromises are. I suggest we leave it alone and go and do something useful. If anyone has a proposal, for which they think they can get a consensus, then I'm happy to support them. But otherwise, let us depart from this futile debate. -- Doc (?) 11:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Let us not have this talk page filled with arguments that have been rehearsed elsewhere ad nauseum. Unless anyone is making a genuine attempt to reach a new consensus – then please stop adding to the troll food! -- Doc (?) 12:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I can see no new comments despite the recent edit, so I will add that I don't think either AD nor CE add anything new to the article, and as they also have the potential to confuse, should be omitted. AD/CE is particularly silly, and certainly should not be used, jguk 11:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
To avoid further editing waring between us - I have filled an RfC on the issue. I suggest we both wait and accept what the consensus of others. -- Doc (?) 12:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to the request for comment:
In my opinion, the terms BCE and CE have certain advantages, such as being theologically neutral, but they are not well known amongst the vast majority of English speakers, who this encyclopaedia is and will be read by. In the absence of a Wikipedia policy or guideline, which dictates whether we should BCE/CE or BC/AD, I would strongly recommend that we do what other well known and credible English language encyclopaedias do. According to Official Wikipedia Policy, quote: Articles in Wikipedia should refer to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have been published by a reputable or credible publisher. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. With this in mind, given that Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encarta and the Oxford English Dictionary qualify as reliable sources under Wikipedia's guidlenes, and they use the terms BC and AD, I believe that BC and AD should be used in this case also. I have not been able to find any dictionary, encyclopaedia or other source which uses BCE and CE or omits a designation altogether yet. As the vast majority of people and most well-known encyclopaedias and dictionaries use BC and AD, I would strongly recommend the usage of these terms here as well. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 14:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
As I have said, most well-known dictionaries and encyclopaedias use BC and AD. I cannot find any encyclopaedias which use BCE and CE, or no designation at all. Wikipedia policies seem to indicate that Wikipedia should follow their example. Therefore, a designation is needed and I believe that it should be BC and AD as they are the ones used by most reliable sources, even on articles on events which occur in the first century. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
If you check the relevant Britannica article, you will see that designations are used and they are of the BC/AD variety. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I think some sort of qualifier is needed for dates in antiquity. I can see the argument for using either BC/AD or BCE/CE. Since the latter is less well-known, I would suggest spelling it out the first time it is used, if that is the system settled upon. Brandon39 06:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
All dates need qualifiers, unless the meaning is obvious. They should be BC/AD as this is the usage. The exceptsion (that makes the rule) is the year 0. :-) Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 19:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, this should be a user preference thing. One's own preferences/stylesheet should render things as either AD or CE, and there should be markup that would generate it according to the preferences. I also believe that the whole date support is a bit lame without proper markup that would allow rendering into different calendar systems for readers with different native calendar backgrounds. I once suggested something in that vein, but this didn't generate a lot of feedback. Since I don't have time to improve the WP software to support that myself at this moment, I am not too angry that this doesn't exist, and thus perceive the BC/BCE kludges as just a reminder about weak technology. BACbKA 09:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
CE is a neutral term, "AD" is not. Use of "AD" violates NPOV.-- Lance talk 03:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have made a few adjustments to the section on Josephus's life by way of correction. Crucially, what was described as his praenomen (Flavius) was actually a nomen, and this has implications for the representation of Vespasian's and Titus's names as well (both TItus Flavius Vespasianus). I note that the nomen is attested in Origen, which tends to confirm that Josephus followed the general practice of taking the patron's praenomen and nomen upon becoming a citizen. It is Josephus himself (not modern scholars) who claims that the special ceremony at his liberation from chains was meant to restore his never-chained status (in the passage given). I adjusted a few other phrases to reflect these changes. Smason 07:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I fixed some of the awkward language here, but the question of the "Roman Roulette" method of suicide makes me wonder whether these details are present in Josephus' works (haven't read in full) or if they're just coming from this computer program - that seems to be where the original author is getting his material about the roulette. Does anyone know anything about this? There is also a continuity problem - how can he be the sole survivor if he surrenders with "one of his soldiers"? Aristophocles ( talk) 23:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article be moved to Flavius Josephus, as that was more or less his legal name, and the name he is most commonly called (in encyclopedic matters)? I saw an article link to Josephus Flavius! As a matter of course, there should still be a redirect from Josephus to Flavius Josephus. D. F. Schmidt 08:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
NO. the extent to which Flavius was his legal name is disputed. Further, he is more often known simply as Josephus - and since there is no other prominent person (AFAIK) commonly known by this name, there is no need to further specify. -- Doc ask? 10:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course his Hebrew name belongs in the intro. Does the fact that later he wrote in Greek negate that he was a Jew and that the Jews in Judea used Hebrew language? ← Humus sapiens ну? 02:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is ridiculous. His original Hebrew/Aramaic name was Yosef ben-Matityahu and this has gone down throughout the centuries with Hebrew speakers and is the name by which every Israeli schoolchild knows him. The gentleman was a Jew from Judea, not the virtual creation of a British translator of Greek texts 2000 years later. It is technically accurate that ben is Hebrew and bar is Aramaic - in fact they are interchangeable in both languages - but he was never known as Yosef bar-Matityahu. All this "reconstructing his name" business is totally artificial. It reminds me of Muammar Gaddafi claiming Shakespeare to have been an Arab (Sheikh Speer). Joseph son of Matthias is exactly that, just as William of Prussia is Wilhelm and Charles the Great is Karl. And Moses is Moshe, Isaac is Yitzhak, Jesus is Yeshua and Mary Magdalene is Miriam mi-Magdala. This strange discussion ending in a strange footnote does not do much credit to Wikipedia. Monosig 01:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid there is considerable evidence of a lack of good faith displayed on this page. Your argument here is patently silly, and I will not engage it. Previous contributors on this page have been overly willing to compromise basic principles of logic and history; and you have clearly abused their good nature. I suggest you bring your crusade elsewhere.-- Lance talk 12:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's stick to our policies. If it is true that Josephus is the only name used in the primary sources, then we use Josephus. There is only one reason to do this: to conform with our NOR policy. If there are secondary sources that claim that Josephus's name in Hebrew was יוסף בן מתתיהו then we should include this information in the body of the article with a proper citation. If there is any debate over Josephus's name we should explain the debate and provide citations, but again this is best defered to the body of the article not the introduction. If anyone has an analysis as to why all the primary sources say "Josephus" rather than his Hebrew name - well, if that person is an editor of Wikipedia their analysis must be kept out of Wikipedia because it would violate NOR and NPOV. If there is a verifiable secondary source that has an analysis as to why all the primary sources say "Josephus" of course then this analysis can be included in the article, with the proper citation. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The caption to the portrait of Josephus refers to the translation by "William Winston." The translator's name was in fact Whiston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Opaanderson ( talk • contribs)
I was following up some loose ends to my edits on Johannes Pfefferkorn and I ran across a few 19th century sources which claim Jewish Wars is misattributed to Josephus, and is actually by Joseph ben Gorion (a.k.a. Josippon). There's also an old comment at Talk:The Wars of the Jews pondering if there's confusion in that article. Was there a spurious medieval manuscript also called Jewish Wars or has the 19th century scholarship been debunked? -- Kendrick7 talk 01:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a paragraph about Josephus' critics:
(Josephus) was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side. (ref: Josephus, Flavius, The Jewish War, tr. G.A. Williamson, introduction by E. Mary Smallwood. New York, Penguin, 1981, p. 24).
Someone removed the Smallwood quote on the grounds that "That person certainly did not read clearly in Josephus book." I've restored it because it illustrates the statement in the preceding paragraph that "For his critics, he never satisfactorily explained his actions during the Jewish war — why he failed to commit suicide in Galilee in 67 with some of his compatriots, and why, after his capture, he cooperated with the Roman invaders."
The following paragraph (which I won't quote here) balances that by presenting salient facts, such as the fact that Simon Bar Giora and John of Giscala also eventually surrendered rather than choose death. -- Tony Sidaway 09:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This sounds pov. Someone tell me the precise source of this statement. From the statement it sounds as though Josephus offered strategic military information. Lowchill ( talk) 07:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have found no support for this statement either in Josephus' Life or the Antiquities. Since there are no other sources for Josephus' biography other than Josephus himself, it seems that this false accusation is derived from the historian Smallwood's attempt to spin Josephus as a traitor. Since I believe that the charge of traitor hinges on a peculiar zealot model of refusing to surrender, I think, this false accusation conceals the weakness of the charge. In other words, Josephus clever escape from a suicide pact (if he openly disagreed he might have been killed), does not seem so treacherous to many people. So, in the case of our article, the author chose to believe that there must be some other reason why josephus is considered a traitor. Again, there is no evidence that Josephus provided intelligence to the Romans while in prison or at any other time. Lowchill ( talk) 02:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Please, if anyone disagree with Jewish Literature, point here the arguments. I added on my own work or study, but Major Jewish Literature, from the most credible rabies and authors, form 4 different reliable sources. Who can erase their work? Add here the arguments to disqualify their well know work.
Ha‑Kohen, Solomon ben Abraham known by his Hebrew acronym Maharshakh. She'elot u-Teshuvot Maharshakh [Solomon ben Abraham ha‑Kohen's Responsa] in Hebrew. Vol. 1 of 4. 197 responsa, novellae on the Talmud and explanations of Maimonides' Mishneh Torah. Printing completed March 27, 1586 [Friedberg]. Salonika: David ben Abraham Azubib, 1586. Judaica Archival Project Microfiche Program Subject Catalog available here http://www.jerusalembooks.com/jap/engcat.htm
Molho's book, p includes entry No. 355 – Joseph Pereira, that belongs to the same family as Perahia the Italian who died Tishri 22, 5308 = October 6, 1547. This epitaph also appears on page 9 of La Famille Pérahia book. Michael ben Solomon Molho’s Essai d’une Monographie sur la Famille Pérahia à Thessalonique French. Salonika, 1938 - Michael Molho is author of a serie of books. He is very famous. Here is a title of TEN of his published material http://openlibrary.org/a/OL169574A/Michael-Molho
Daniel Conforte - Ḳore ha-Dorot - (Venice: Meir da Zara at the Giovanni Vendramin Press) Daniel Conforte is very famous and his published material are very well recognized as well. Who can eliminate or erase his work? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Conforte -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 01:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedias policies is clear about reliable sources information. IF any one believes that the references above are not reliable sources, please explain here the reasons. This is MAJOR JEWISH LITERATURE. Wikepedia readers have the right to obtain acess to MAJOR JEWISH LITERATURE. -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 01:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Do you need more than the fours that I pointed? Here is another two authors than confirmed the family claim:
Isaac Samuel Emmanuel - Matsevot Salonika, (Precious Stones of the Jews of Salonika). This book was printed in Israel (1963) by Ben-Zvi Institute only 46 years ago. http://www.bookgallery.co.il/content/english/bookpageschema.asp?BookPageID=58893
Joseph ben Judah Nehama’s Histoire des Israélites de Salonique [History of the Jews of Salonika] in French. Vols. 6 and 7 of 7. Salonika: Jewish Community of Salonika, 1978. Henry was president of the Jewish community of Salonka and a member of the Bikkur Holim in the 1880s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chriscohen ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Cohen has spent a lot of time on Wikipedia attempting to promote the claim that he and his immediate family are direct descendants of certain prominent ancient Jews. He has claimed descent variously from the Hasmoneans and from Josephus. In his attempts to promote his family tree on Wikipedia he invariably runs afoul of a number of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, including WP:OR, WP:V, WP:COI, WP:NOT, WP:NOTE, WP:SYNTH and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. Regardless of whether these claims are true, it's time for Mr. Cohen to understand that his personal family tree is not appropriate material for Wikipedia. He has a webpage where he can publish all the vanity material he likes, and usenet, blogs, and various genealogy sites are available to him. Furthermore, someone who lived as long ago as Josephus can reasonably be expected to have thousands of descendants with various surnames. There is no reasonable argument for giving special mention to Mr. Cohen's family. It's time for Mr. Cohen to finally, at long, long last, understand that Wikipedia is not the place for vanity posts about his personal family tree. If that information ever becomes notable (unlikely), someone will notice it, write about it, and that information will find it's way into Wikipedia through avenues other than Mr. Cohen's rather hamfisted attempts at self-promotion. -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 02:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Please, don’t try to kill the voice of the most credible Jewish historians and authors of our times, like Mr. David Conforte. His published material is considerate the guideline used by all rabies and scholars in the world. Why we cannot allow Wikipedia’s readers to read David Conforte`s published contente? It is because it is false, degenerative, or a sham? One must be nuts to silent the Jewish authors, historians, and publishers.
1) David Conforte. David Conforte’s materpiece book “Kore ha‑Dorot” ( Venice: Meir da Zara at the Giovanni Vendramin Press, 1746) indicates on page 72 (36b) that there is a connection between Josefus Flavius and the Perahia family. Why we cannot let Wikipedia’s readers read David Conforte’s material? If he says, writes and states in his book that the Hacohen Perahia family have the connection to Josephus, why do you think you have the right to silent him? (And at least 5 others different authors as well?)
Again this is not me here saying anything about me or my family, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least six different reliable sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent David Conforte`s voice and invalidate his work. His material is a reliable source for sure. One must be nuts to reject and to refute it.
2)Michael Molho. Another great and legendary Jewish historian and author of more than 10 books published in Jewish Literature. Molho has an essay on his book indicating that the Perahia family was first among the priests, descendants of Flavius Josephus. One of these family members, the famous poet Samuel Hacohen Perahia, also participated in his other books contributing with poems. Essai d’une Monographie sur la Famille Pérahia à Thessalonique French. Salonika, 1938. PS: Reprinted occurred only 46 years ago.
HERE IS WHAT IS EXACTLY IN MOLHO'S BOOK: ( I pretend to use ^(rewriting)part of it, on Josephus article, why not? Do you have objections?)
OF HIS NOBLE ANCESTRY. For four consecutive centuries, the Perahyah family kept Salonika in center stage, and they contributed in every aspect of economic, scientific, philosophical, literary, administrative and philanthropic activities.There were few examples, in the history of a nation, of such continued prestigious contributions, throughout the ages. Perahyah I, the Italian, had a famous ancestry. A closely guarded tradition traces his ancestry to the ancient tribe of the priests of the Temple. One of the most famous Perahyah sons, the poet Samuel, wrote in an essay at the end of the first volume by Solomon ha-Cohen latteringly known as the Mouarchah – that the family was first among the priests. That he belonged to this tribe is irrefutable as evidenced by his epitaph. The tradition also links him to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Masada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. We know that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books War of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era::::
- Michael Molho, author of more than 10 books that is part of the Major Jewish Literature
“In La Famille Pérahia, Molho, citing also the work of David Conforte's book, Kore ha-Dorot wrote that tradition links Samuel Hacohen Perahia to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Massada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. Molho goes on to write that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books The Wars of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era. Molho leaves no doubt that the Perahias are descendants of the famous general and historian who was born in Jerusalem in the year 37 CE and who died in Rome in the year 100 CE.”
Again this is not me here saying anything about me, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least four different sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent Michael Molho`s voice and invalidate his work. This is not fair and a correct thing to do, just because we don’t agree with the content. Please, don’t try to kill the voice of the most credible Jewish historians and authors of our times, like Mr. Michal Molho. His published material is considerate the guideline used by all rabies and scholars in the world. Why we cannot allow Wikipedia’s readers to read Michal Molho`s published content? One must be nuts to silent the Jewish authors, historians, and publishers.
And Michal Molho did not write this essay by himself. Here is what he wrote on the third page of the same book:
Again this is not me here saying anything about me, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least four different sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent Michael Molho`s voice and invalidate his work. This is not fair and a correct thing to do, just because we don’t agree with the content. Did we live in that time to dispute with the family and rabies their long establish claim?
3)Judah Gedaliah. Judah Gedaliah printed in 1521 the book “She'erit Yosef” in Salonika. There were two printings of She'erit Yosef in Salonika. The first was printed by Judah Gedaliah in 1521.
4) The second by Joseph ben Isaac Jabez in 1568. There are plenty references about the claim of Hacohen Perahia family and their histories and background. Please, put on your mind once for all that this family was very well know and traditional and their claim was notorious and accepted by the most prominent rabies of our times, and this information is available for people who read Jewish Literature. If you cannot read Hebrew, than see Michael Molho`s comment about this well know family and their claim, participations and histories on “She'erit Yosef” book.
5) Joseph Nehama. The first 5 volumes of the monumental work "Histoire des Israelites de Salonique" by Joseph Nehama (1880-1971) were published between 1935 and 1939, so only 70 years ago. His book also contains the information about the family, their claim, their history and their contributions to the Jewish Community in Salonika. See here a PDF file and locate the names of the Hacohen Perahia family, and the respective indication of the correct volume and pages that contains their histories, claim, and etc… See for yourself - http://www.sephardicstudies.org/pdf/NEHAMA-MASTER-INDEX.pdf
6) Isaac Samuel Emmanuel . Another illustrious author that wrote about dozens of Jewish families that lived in the XV Century including the Hacohen Perahia claim and histories. He wrote about Hacohen Perahia family, their claim, history and contribution to the Jewish Community in Salonika. This book is called “The Precious Stones of the Jews in Salonica” printed by in Israel by the Ben-Zvi Institute in 1963, only 46 years ago. This book also contains information about the Hacohen Perahia family, their claim, history and contribution for the Jewish Community in Salonika.
This is not a Original Research. We cannot silent the work of Major Jewish Literature just because certain individuals don’t link the content of this material.
If you want to see this same information, please visit the site the Genealogy in Salonika called Les Fleurs de Orient – The Genealogy of Jewish families that lived in Salonika, partner of the Jewish Museum of Thessaloniki. There you can read the well know and extensive claim published by the family.
http://www.farhi.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I3608&tree=Hassid
“In La Famille Pérahia, Molho, citing David Conforte's book, Kore ha-Dorot wrote, that tradition links Samuel to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Massada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. Molho goes on to write that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books The Wars of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era. Molho leaves no doubt that the Perahias are descendants of the famous general and historian who was born in Jerusalem in the year 37 CE and who died in Rome in the year 100 CE.”
We cannot silent the work of Major Jewish Literature, authors, rabies, historians, and publishers, just because certain individuals don’t link the content of the material that is hurting their own concepts and theories. There are 6 different reliable sources stating that HaCohen Perahia is recognized descendants of Flavius Josephus. We cannot ignore the tradition of the Jewish people, the work of the Jewish authors who spend most of their lives writing and fighting for future generations.
By the way, if you think this family never existed, please, spend only 60 seconds and read and see for yourself this link that contains many pictures of their Tombstones and also epitaphs about this well know, credible and important Jewish family.
See here http://www.cohen.org.br/images/stories/epitaphs_ofthefamily.png
Here we wretchedly see two or three desolately individuals trying to silent 6 different Jewish authors that worked very hard, and for a purpose their material survived and is now available for anyone who are really interesting in Jewish History and Literature and willing to give up their own concepts and theories. I think this whole situation is an absurd.
You will not, cannot, and don’t have the right to shut up the voice of our greatest Jewish authors, historians, rabies and publishers, ok? Who do you think you are? If you don’t agree with their published material that`s okay, but go home, take a shower and drink a Ice Tea and never try to silent their voices again, never try to kill their work and to erase a important chapter of the Jewish History. -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 02:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
"Beginning with the creation according to Genesis, he outlines Jewish history. Abraham taught science to the Egyptians..."
This is sort of confusing - and not sourced. He certainly did not teach the scientific method, which is the foundation of science as we know it today, so if anyone knows what the text says exactly and can describe it more... accurately, that would be great. Also, why is so little of this page sourced? 98.168.192.162 ( talk) 04:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
To whom it may concern,
Can you please help me. Josephus wrote in one of his books that chickens were not allowed inside the walls of Jerusalem, I think the page number is 187, can you help me with the books name and perhaps a copy of the page.
Will greatly appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.112.204.252 ( talk) 13:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I believe that Josephus was the first person to use this term, but i am not sure. And I am no expet on josephus. I assume those of you who watch this page are - can you confirm for me whether he did indeed coin the term and if so, where did he first use it? If he did not coin the term, where did he get it from? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering if we should expand the profile to talk more about the criticisms of Josephus because there are many scholars who discount much of his writings as politically rather than factually influenced. THDju ( talk) 12:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Revently I posted an external link to a page about an elaborate discussion about Flavius Josephus being Joseph of Arimathea (The biblical figure that took Jesus from the cross and burried him in his land). It is a most interesting and revolutionary piece about early chrisianity, and the role of Josephus in it. Unfortunatelly the link was discarded as a spamlink. I really think this link has an encyclopedic value for this page, and it does not violate any Wikipedia rule. I hope it will be agreed to put the link back. -- Controle2 ( talk) 16:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
tooMuchData
15:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheResearchPersona ( talk • contribs)Added some brief background information and corrected a spelling error. References provided as well. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 17:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The article refers to "the Genesis myth". This interjects an opinion...that the Biblical Genesis is a myth. That it is not, is a belief held by many people. It would be better to say "the creation story in Genesis" of "the Biblical story of creation" or simply "Genesis"....something of that light. Opinion has no place in encyclopedic form. Fabuladico ( talk) 02:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Included the quote by Nitsa Ben-Ari in which, to my reading, she includes Josephus "among converts who were shunned" and then considered a traitor - addressing why 19th-century scholars refused to study or translate his work. Parkwells ( talk) 17:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Isn't there considerable speculation that Josephus' works were written by Arius Calpurnius Piso, and that Josephus was a pen name given a fictitious background? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.205.195 ( talk) 02:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
caption under the bust reads "A Roman portrait bust said to be of Josephus, though this identification reflects an antisemitic trope that assumes that Jews have large noses. In the absence of any epigraphic evidence, this attribution cannot be supported.[1]"
so why even put it there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.171.160.130 ( talk) 04:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that the claim in this article, "It was often the book after the Bible that was most frequently owned by Christians" is not one made uniquely to Josephus' work. Regarding the identity of the second most popular book owned by Christians after the Bible, serious contenders include St. Augustine's "Confessions," Thomas a Kempis' "Imitation of Christ," and John Bunyan's "A Pilgrim's Progress." If no one has any documentation substantiating this claim, I propose we change it to some more generic claim of the text's popularity, without seeking to inflate it's status with a dubious or unproved (or unprovable) claim. For example, "It was thenceforward a book popular throughout the Christian world." Thoughts? ( Mryarsawich ( talk) 15:00, 4 August 2012 (UTC))
I don't know if any one else has picked up on the fact that Flavius Josephus claims to have studied all three Jewish sects and been taught by a banus by the age of 19. The first factor is the Essenes never inducted initiates into their order until they were 20 or older.If you study the "Dead Sea Scrolls" you will understand that Josephus might be stretching the truth a little bit. Another factor is that he claims to have been taught by a banus like Yeshua/Jesus was. Was this Yohanan the banus that was kicked out of the Essenes or was there lots of profits roaming around in the wilderness just waiting to emerge to teach selected people. I find that there is something very important here if you read between the lines. Was Josephus suggesting that he was given the same knowledge that Yeshua had been given in order to gain favour with the Roman authorities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbean777 ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
This claim is in dire need of a source. It directly conflicts with Josephus' own account of what transpired (The Jewish War III, 383), where he claims to have pleaded with the other survivors in the cave to reconsider their determination to commit suicide en masse. He does note, however, that upon realizing he would be unable to deter them from suicide while he himself wished to surrender to Vespasian's forces, that he suggested casting lots. Stating Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide is deceptive. AlmostSurely ( talk) 14:57, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
i have nothing to add to AlmostSurely's point (except that i agree it should be sourced). but i had a question related to this topic, and thought i'd put it here. i find this: "counting to every third person" to be incredibly confusing. i read thru the 'Josephus Problem' article. i guess "every 3rd person" works in the sense that if the 1st person to kill gets the designation "1," then the person killed would be number "3." then, if the next to kill is "4," the next to die is "6." then "7" kills "9." it continues in this way, by "3" until the end of the line is reached (or the circle is closed), when "40" kills "1" and the pattern ceases to hold. ("2" kills "5," "7" kills "10," "11" kills "14" etc.) however, with "every third person," it matters who does the 2nd killing. is it the next person AFTER the one killed ("1" kills "3" then "4" kills "6"), or is it the one who is SKIPPED ("1" kills "3" then "2" kills "5")? neither of these scenarios give one of the results from the 'Josephus Problem' article: "The first time around the circle, all of the even-numbered people die."
BUT...the JoPro article takes a different approach: "1" kills "2," "3" kills "4," "5" kills "6," and so on. this seems supported by the Josephus quote in that article, which states, "He whom the lot falls to first, let him be killed by him that hath the second lot." which ALSO does not give one of the results from that very article: "Josephus had an accomplice...It is alleged that he placed himself and the other man in the 31st and 16th place respectively." only by skipping a person, then going to the NEXT person (not the skipped person), can you end up with "16" and "31" as the remaining two people (out of 41).
well....i suppose i should see if the Talk page for the JoPro article has a discussion about this. but the phrase here is still confusing. Colbey84 ( talk) 09:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
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Too politically correct, biases the whole article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.196.249.242 ( talk) 19:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
See The Reception of Josephus in the Early Modern Period and the related articles in the same edition for a high quality set of sources to help improve this article. Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:48, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
If his name written in Hebrew was "יוסף הכהן בן מתתיהו ", then the transcription "Yosef ben Matityahu " seems incomplete, missing the "הכהן" part. "Hkhn", which which I guess should be transcribed as "HaKohen". -- Johannes Rohr ( talk) 13:05, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Please remove the prosthesis identified with Josephus. The source of this identification is the anti-Semitic motif of the great Jewish nose. There is no basis for the claim that identifies this finding with Josephus. Please correct the mistake here and everywhere else. My name is Asaf Avraham I am an Israeli archaeologist. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:ED0:5316:2500:B1BD:69E4:A9F1:8C2F ( talk) 20:01, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
My answer to Yanin Horon יניב הורון The bust is real and the nose is beautiful. But the identification is very doubtful. See the full prose in Hebrew. This identification has extremely dubious sources, probably anti-Semitic. Therefore it must be noted. Assaf Avraham — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.34.175 ( talk) 06:34, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead says Josephus "was a first-century Romano-Jewish scholar, historian and hagiographer." The word "hagiographer" does not appear anywhere else in the article. MOS:LEAD says "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Hagiography " is a biography of a saint or an ecclesiastical leader." I cannot see how this applies to Josephus at all. I think "hagiographer" should be removed but will wait to see if any objections are entered. Smeat75 ( talk) 19:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
To whom it might concern:
There is currently a Request for Comment on the Talk:Vita page, regarding the word entry "Vita" for Josephus' fourth book covering his Life History. Those that may have an opinion on this matter, please feel free to respond there. Davidbena ( talk) 14:18, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
"His preface to Antiquities offers his opinion early on, saying, "Upon the whole, a man that will peruse this history, may principally learn from it, that all events succeed well, even to an incredible degree, and the reward of felicity is proposed by God."[62] After inserting this attitude, Josephus contradicts himself: "I shall accurately describe what is contained in our records, in the order of time that belongs to them … without adding any thing to what is therein contained, or taking away any thing therefrom."" Perhaps I am misunderstanding the text here, so I didn't want to edit anything, but I fail to see any contradiction between these two quotes from Josephus. Can someone who is more informed on the subject take a look? Thanks. Leon181 ( talk) 07:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Since this keeps getting re-added, it's worth presenting the facts here. The image in question is [2]
Modern scholarship definitively rejects the identification of this bust as Josephus, as well as the rationale upon which it was originally made. Indeed, the first of the sources listed below explicitly criticizes Wikipedia for presenting this image as a depiction of Josephus. See e.g.
1) "How Do You Know a Jew When You See One?" by the historian Steven Fine in the collection Fashioning Jews: Clothing, Culture, and Commerce (2013), p. 19–20: [3]
2) "Distinguishing Jewishness in Antiquity" by the historian Jonathan P. Roth in the collection A Tall Order. Writing the Social History of the Ancient World (2005), p. 54: [4]
3) Bread, Wine, Walls and Scrolls by the archaeologist Magen Broshi (2001), p.47: [5].
4) Flavius Josephus Between Jerusalem and Rome by the classicist Per Bilde (2002 [1988]), p. 60: [6]
Hopefully this will be the end of the issue, until such time as a preponderance of reliable sources is produced which contradicts what is stated in these. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
We've been seeing a number of IP editors attempting to replace Palestine (region) with Judea or other alternatives recently. At first I agreed with this change, but after looking into it more closely I saw that Wikipedia's main article on the geographical region is indeed Palestine (region). I also saw that Josephus did in fact use this term. As such, Palestine appears to be the correct term / Wikilink for us to use. I invite the most recent IP range who is edit warring over this to engage here instead. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The article Timeline of the name Palestine and the sources it cites might be relevant for the present discussion. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm removing those again as they are not standard to the Latin alphabet and to English, and contain nothing relevant in the context of a biography such as this. Avilich ( talk) 20:06, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I'd like the article to include the "slavonic josephus texts". i've read about them when used as a reference in a book. the text describes Jesus and James, it chronicled the events before, during and after the crucifixition, and it even says (as claimed by the book) that Josephus described Jesus' physical features based on the wanted poster by the roman authorities. Also, i'd like the article include details on "early christian censorship" (if there are any) and to which extent (if any) the works of Josephus censored or edited which might explain (if any exists) why the mention of Jesus by Josephus in his works to be scarce. thx a lot. -- Rebskii 17:57, 4 October 2006 (UTC) rebskii
Can Doc Glasgow explain why there is even a need for compromise? I didn't know there was a conflict. I thought my changes were fairly simple and obvious but I will explain them. It is anachronistic to call the Hebrew Bible "Old Testament" (which is a part of the Christian Bible) here for two reasons. First, the Old Testament did not even exist back then -- the Christian Bible was not canonized unbtil much later. Second, Josephus himself certainly did not consider any of the books of the Bible he was referring to as "Old Testament." Finally, it should be obvious and uncontentious that Josephus is much more important to Jewish history than to Christian history. Most scholars do not think he says much at all about Jesus and Christians, period. I am not denying that scholars of Christianity may read Josephus and certainly didn't make any edit that leaves this out, but it is certainly secondary to the importance to Jewish history. -- Slrubenstein | Talk 23:42, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, granted 'Old Testament' is an anachronism, but then so too is 'Hebrew Bible' (which is a modern scholarly construct). Josephus in fact largely uses the LXX and not the Masoritic text. If we are pedantic about this, the article becomes unintelligible to the non-expert. The 'great figures' he speaks of are those we currently find in both the Jewish Tanakh and the Christian Old Testament (which are related but not identical) - that is why I suggested that both designations should be used.
...The vast majority of critical scholarship today accepts the majority of the Testimonium Flavianum. While there is indeed Christian interpolation, there is astounding evidence that Josephus indeed mentions Jesus at the core of that passage. I have contacted a few Josephus scholars and they denied the claim that the Testimonium Flavianum is out of context. One even stated, "The claim that the TF cuts off the narrative flow is totally worthless. In both places (the TF and Antiquities 20:200) that Jesus is mentioned in Josephus, the text correlates admirably with the context." - Dr. Paul Maier. bmar87 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Humus sapiens has changed some of the AD/BC terminology to BCE/CE with the edit comment "please use BCE/CE at least in Jewish-related articles". I was tempted to revert these changes on the grounds:
However, in a spirit of generosity – and to avoid dispute, I am going to change all notation to a double notation of BCE/BC and CE/AD – I place the ‘Common era’ notation first in sensitivity to the ‘Jewish’ interest nature of the article. I hope this can be accepted in the spirit in which it is offered. -- Doc (?) 19:07, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Dual symbols just look bad - and confusing. I'm sure that before I ever ventured onto Wikipedia, if I saw such a thing, I'd just not know what it meant and give up reading an article because I'd reason it wasn't written with me in mind. I'm not really sure what the motivation of dual notation was, but it seems unlikely to have been with the reader in mind - which I'd have thought should be the only deciding factor. With readers in mind, I'd have thought we'd have gone for terminology understood by everyone worldwide (ie "AD").
Incidentally, I have been told that the MoS currently supports removing all date modifiers where there are no BC years in an article (although I must admit that as I'm unfamiliar with American academic-speak, I just can't follow what it says at present anyway). I still prefer this approach, as I believe people would read a date without a modifier as being AD, jguk 18:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Generally, I agree - that AD etc should not be used when it is clearly needed. 1492 AD is unnecessary. But it is conventional, when the subject is in antiquity to use modifiers at least at first mention, for the avoidance of doubt. Here, I think one entry would be sufficient. Personally, I don't care for the double entry CE/AD - most academic works use a single style - but Wikipedia seems unable to agree one. Since AD was used here first, I am happy with a single AD - but, as others came and changed that, I sought a compromise. -- Doc (?) 18:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I am not being possessive, and I'm not claiming my POV should triumph. This article was originaly AD (and I am not the creator). The was an attempt to change it to CE - but there is no consensus for such a change - and I think we can agree that attempts to find a consensus on a preferred system are doomed. I substituted the dual system as an attempt to avoid an unresolvable edit war. Yes, it is unsatisfactory - but then most compromises are. I suggest we leave it alone and go and do something useful. If anyone has a proposal, for which they think they can get a consensus, then I'm happy to support them. But otherwise, let us depart from this futile debate. -- Doc (?) 11:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Let us not have this talk page filled with arguments that have been rehearsed elsewhere ad nauseum. Unless anyone is making a genuine attempt to reach a new consensus – then please stop adding to the troll food! -- Doc (?) 12:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I can see no new comments despite the recent edit, so I will add that I don't think either AD nor CE add anything new to the article, and as they also have the potential to confuse, should be omitted. AD/CE is particularly silly, and certainly should not be used, jguk 11:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
To avoid further editing waring between us - I have filled an RfC on the issue. I suggest we both wait and accept what the consensus of others. -- Doc (?) 12:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
In response to the request for comment:
In my opinion, the terms BCE and CE have certain advantages, such as being theologically neutral, but they are not well known amongst the vast majority of English speakers, who this encyclopaedia is and will be read by. In the absence of a Wikipedia policy or guideline, which dictates whether we should BCE/CE or BC/AD, I would strongly recommend that we do what other well known and credible English language encyclopaedias do. According to Official Wikipedia Policy, quote: Articles in Wikipedia should refer to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have been published by a reputable or credible publisher. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. With this in mind, given that Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encarta and the Oxford English Dictionary qualify as reliable sources under Wikipedia's guidlenes, and they use the terms BC and AD, I believe that BC and AD should be used in this case also. I have not been able to find any dictionary, encyclopaedia or other source which uses BCE and CE or omits a designation altogether yet. As the vast majority of people and most well-known encyclopaedias and dictionaries use BC and AD, I would strongly recommend the usage of these terms here as well. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 14:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
As I have said, most well-known dictionaries and encyclopaedias use BC and AD. I cannot find any encyclopaedias which use BCE and CE, or no designation at all. Wikipedia policies seem to indicate that Wikipedia should follow their example. Therefore, a designation is needed and I believe that it should be BC and AD as they are the ones used by most reliable sources, even on articles on events which occur in the first century. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
If you check the relevant Britannica article, you will see that designations are used and they are of the BC/AD variety. GrandfatherJoe ( talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I think some sort of qualifier is needed for dates in antiquity. I can see the argument for using either BC/AD or BCE/CE. Since the latter is less well-known, I would suggest spelling it out the first time it is used, if that is the system settled upon. Brandon39 06:27, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
All dates need qualifiers, unless the meaning is obvious. They should be BC/AD as this is the usage. The exceptsion (that makes the rule) is the year 0. :-) Dominick (ŤαĿĶ) 19:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, this should be a user preference thing. One's own preferences/stylesheet should render things as either AD or CE, and there should be markup that would generate it according to the preferences. I also believe that the whole date support is a bit lame without proper markup that would allow rendering into different calendar systems for readers with different native calendar backgrounds. I once suggested something in that vein, but this didn't generate a lot of feedback. Since I don't have time to improve the WP software to support that myself at this moment, I am not too angry that this doesn't exist, and thus perceive the BC/BCE kludges as just a reminder about weak technology. BACbKA 09:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
CE is a neutral term, "AD" is not. Use of "AD" violates NPOV.-- Lance talk 03:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have made a few adjustments to the section on Josephus's life by way of correction. Crucially, what was described as his praenomen (Flavius) was actually a nomen, and this has implications for the representation of Vespasian's and Titus's names as well (both TItus Flavius Vespasianus). I note that the nomen is attested in Origen, which tends to confirm that Josephus followed the general practice of taking the patron's praenomen and nomen upon becoming a citizen. It is Josephus himself (not modern scholars) who claims that the special ceremony at his liberation from chains was meant to restore his never-chained status (in the passage given). I adjusted a few other phrases to reflect these changes. Smason 07:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I fixed some of the awkward language here, but the question of the "Roman Roulette" method of suicide makes me wonder whether these details are present in Josephus' works (haven't read in full) or if they're just coming from this computer program - that seems to be where the original author is getting his material about the roulette. Does anyone know anything about this? There is also a continuity problem - how can he be the sole survivor if he surrenders with "one of his soldiers"? Aristophocles ( talk) 23:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article be moved to Flavius Josephus, as that was more or less his legal name, and the name he is most commonly called (in encyclopedic matters)? I saw an article link to Josephus Flavius! As a matter of course, there should still be a redirect from Josephus to Flavius Josephus. D. F. Schmidt 08:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
NO. the extent to which Flavius was his legal name is disputed. Further, he is more often known simply as Josephus - and since there is no other prominent person (AFAIK) commonly known by this name, there is no need to further specify. -- Doc ask? 10:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course his Hebrew name belongs in the intro. Does the fact that later he wrote in Greek negate that he was a Jew and that the Jews in Judea used Hebrew language? ← Humus sapiens ну? 02:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
This discussion is ridiculous. His original Hebrew/Aramaic name was Yosef ben-Matityahu and this has gone down throughout the centuries with Hebrew speakers and is the name by which every Israeli schoolchild knows him. The gentleman was a Jew from Judea, not the virtual creation of a British translator of Greek texts 2000 years later. It is technically accurate that ben is Hebrew and bar is Aramaic - in fact they are interchangeable in both languages - but he was never known as Yosef bar-Matityahu. All this "reconstructing his name" business is totally artificial. It reminds me of Muammar Gaddafi claiming Shakespeare to have been an Arab (Sheikh Speer). Joseph son of Matthias is exactly that, just as William of Prussia is Wilhelm and Charles the Great is Karl. And Moses is Moshe, Isaac is Yitzhak, Jesus is Yeshua and Mary Magdalene is Miriam mi-Magdala. This strange discussion ending in a strange footnote does not do much credit to Wikipedia. Monosig 01:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid there is considerable evidence of a lack of good faith displayed on this page. Your argument here is patently silly, and I will not engage it. Previous contributors on this page have been overly willing to compromise basic principles of logic and history; and you have clearly abused their good nature. I suggest you bring your crusade elsewhere.-- Lance talk 12:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's stick to our policies. If it is true that Josephus is the only name used in the primary sources, then we use Josephus. There is only one reason to do this: to conform with our NOR policy. If there are secondary sources that claim that Josephus's name in Hebrew was יוסף בן מתתיהו then we should include this information in the body of the article with a proper citation. If there is any debate over Josephus's name we should explain the debate and provide citations, but again this is best defered to the body of the article not the introduction. If anyone has an analysis as to why all the primary sources say "Josephus" rather than his Hebrew name - well, if that person is an editor of Wikipedia their analysis must be kept out of Wikipedia because it would violate NOR and NPOV. If there is a verifiable secondary source that has an analysis as to why all the primary sources say "Josephus" of course then this analysis can be included in the article, with the proper citation. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The caption to the portrait of Josephus refers to the translation by "William Winston." The translator's name was in fact Whiston. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Opaanderson ( talk • contribs)
I was following up some loose ends to my edits on Johannes Pfefferkorn and I ran across a few 19th century sources which claim Jewish Wars is misattributed to Josephus, and is actually by Joseph ben Gorion (a.k.a. Josippon). There's also an old comment at Talk:The Wars of the Jews pondering if there's confusion in that article. Was there a spurious medieval manuscript also called Jewish Wars or has the 19th century scholarship been debunked? -- Kendrick7 talk 01:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a paragraph about Josephus' critics:
(Josephus) was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side. (ref: Josephus, Flavius, The Jewish War, tr. G.A. Williamson, introduction by E. Mary Smallwood. New York, Penguin, 1981, p. 24).
Someone removed the Smallwood quote on the grounds that "That person certainly did not read clearly in Josephus book." I've restored it because it illustrates the statement in the preceding paragraph that "For his critics, he never satisfactorily explained his actions during the Jewish war — why he failed to commit suicide in Galilee in 67 with some of his compatriots, and why, after his capture, he cooperated with the Roman invaders."
The following paragraph (which I won't quote here) balances that by presenting salient facts, such as the fact that Simon Bar Giora and John of Giscala also eventually surrendered rather than choose death. -- Tony Sidaway 09:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This sounds pov. Someone tell me the precise source of this statement. From the statement it sounds as though Josephus offered strategic military information. Lowchill ( talk) 07:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have found no support for this statement either in Josephus' Life or the Antiquities. Since there are no other sources for Josephus' biography other than Josephus himself, it seems that this false accusation is derived from the historian Smallwood's attempt to spin Josephus as a traitor. Since I believe that the charge of traitor hinges on a peculiar zealot model of refusing to surrender, I think, this false accusation conceals the weakness of the charge. In other words, Josephus clever escape from a suicide pact (if he openly disagreed he might have been killed), does not seem so treacherous to many people. So, in the case of our article, the author chose to believe that there must be some other reason why josephus is considered a traitor. Again, there is no evidence that Josephus provided intelligence to the Romans while in prison or at any other time. Lowchill ( talk) 02:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Please, if anyone disagree with Jewish Literature, point here the arguments. I added on my own work or study, but Major Jewish Literature, from the most credible rabies and authors, form 4 different reliable sources. Who can erase their work? Add here the arguments to disqualify their well know work.
Ha‑Kohen, Solomon ben Abraham known by his Hebrew acronym Maharshakh. She'elot u-Teshuvot Maharshakh [Solomon ben Abraham ha‑Kohen's Responsa] in Hebrew. Vol. 1 of 4. 197 responsa, novellae on the Talmud and explanations of Maimonides' Mishneh Torah. Printing completed March 27, 1586 [Friedberg]. Salonika: David ben Abraham Azubib, 1586. Judaica Archival Project Microfiche Program Subject Catalog available here http://www.jerusalembooks.com/jap/engcat.htm
Molho's book, p includes entry No. 355 – Joseph Pereira, that belongs to the same family as Perahia the Italian who died Tishri 22, 5308 = October 6, 1547. This epitaph also appears on page 9 of La Famille Pérahia book. Michael ben Solomon Molho’s Essai d’une Monographie sur la Famille Pérahia à Thessalonique French. Salonika, 1938 - Michael Molho is author of a serie of books. He is very famous. Here is a title of TEN of his published material http://openlibrary.org/a/OL169574A/Michael-Molho
Daniel Conforte - Ḳore ha-Dorot - (Venice: Meir da Zara at the Giovanni Vendramin Press) Daniel Conforte is very famous and his published material are very well recognized as well. Who can eliminate or erase his work? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Conforte -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 01:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedias policies is clear about reliable sources information. IF any one believes that the references above are not reliable sources, please explain here the reasons. This is MAJOR JEWISH LITERATURE. Wikepedia readers have the right to obtain acess to MAJOR JEWISH LITERATURE. -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 01:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Do you need more than the fours that I pointed? Here is another two authors than confirmed the family claim:
Isaac Samuel Emmanuel - Matsevot Salonika, (Precious Stones of the Jews of Salonika). This book was printed in Israel (1963) by Ben-Zvi Institute only 46 years ago. http://www.bookgallery.co.il/content/english/bookpageschema.asp?BookPageID=58893
Joseph ben Judah Nehama’s Histoire des Israélites de Salonique [History of the Jews of Salonika] in French. Vols. 6 and 7 of 7. Salonika: Jewish Community of Salonika, 1978. Henry was president of the Jewish community of Salonka and a member of the Bikkur Holim in the 1880s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chriscohen ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Cohen has spent a lot of time on Wikipedia attempting to promote the claim that he and his immediate family are direct descendants of certain prominent ancient Jews. He has claimed descent variously from the Hasmoneans and from Josephus. In his attempts to promote his family tree on Wikipedia he invariably runs afoul of a number of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, including WP:OR, WP:V, WP:COI, WP:NOT, WP:NOTE, WP:SYNTH and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT. Regardless of whether these claims are true, it's time for Mr. Cohen to understand that his personal family tree is not appropriate material for Wikipedia. He has a webpage where he can publish all the vanity material he likes, and usenet, blogs, and various genealogy sites are available to him. Furthermore, someone who lived as long ago as Josephus can reasonably be expected to have thousands of descendants with various surnames. There is no reasonable argument for giving special mention to Mr. Cohen's family. It's time for Mr. Cohen to finally, at long, long last, understand that Wikipedia is not the place for vanity posts about his personal family tree. If that information ever becomes notable (unlikely), someone will notice it, write about it, and that information will find it's way into Wikipedia through avenues other than Mr. Cohen's rather hamfisted attempts at self-promotion. -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 02:46, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Please, don’t try to kill the voice of the most credible Jewish historians and authors of our times, like Mr. David Conforte. His published material is considerate the guideline used by all rabies and scholars in the world. Why we cannot allow Wikipedia’s readers to read David Conforte`s published contente? It is because it is false, degenerative, or a sham? One must be nuts to silent the Jewish authors, historians, and publishers.
1) David Conforte. David Conforte’s materpiece book “Kore ha‑Dorot” ( Venice: Meir da Zara at the Giovanni Vendramin Press, 1746) indicates on page 72 (36b) that there is a connection between Josefus Flavius and the Perahia family. Why we cannot let Wikipedia’s readers read David Conforte’s material? If he says, writes and states in his book that the Hacohen Perahia family have the connection to Josephus, why do you think you have the right to silent him? (And at least 5 others different authors as well?)
Again this is not me here saying anything about me or my family, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least six different reliable sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent David Conforte`s voice and invalidate his work. His material is a reliable source for sure. One must be nuts to reject and to refute it.
2)Michael Molho. Another great and legendary Jewish historian and author of more than 10 books published in Jewish Literature. Molho has an essay on his book indicating that the Perahia family was first among the priests, descendants of Flavius Josephus. One of these family members, the famous poet Samuel Hacohen Perahia, also participated in his other books contributing with poems. Essai d’une Monographie sur la Famille Pérahia à Thessalonique French. Salonika, 1938. PS: Reprinted occurred only 46 years ago.
HERE IS WHAT IS EXACTLY IN MOLHO'S BOOK: ( I pretend to use ^(rewriting)part of it, on Josephus article, why not? Do you have objections?)
OF HIS NOBLE ANCESTRY. For four consecutive centuries, the Perahyah family kept Salonika in center stage, and they contributed in every aspect of economic, scientific, philosophical, literary, administrative and philanthropic activities.There were few examples, in the history of a nation, of such continued prestigious contributions, throughout the ages. Perahyah I, the Italian, had a famous ancestry. A closely guarded tradition traces his ancestry to the ancient tribe of the priests of the Temple. One of the most famous Perahyah sons, the poet Samuel, wrote in an essay at the end of the first volume by Solomon ha-Cohen latteringly known as the Mouarchah – that the family was first among the priests. That he belonged to this tribe is irrefutable as evidenced by his epitaph. The tradition also links him to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Masada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. We know that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books War of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era::::
- Michael Molho, author of more than 10 books that is part of the Major Jewish Literature
“In La Famille Pérahia, Molho, citing also the work of David Conforte's book, Kore ha-Dorot wrote that tradition links Samuel Hacohen Perahia to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Massada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. Molho goes on to write that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books The Wars of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era. Molho leaves no doubt that the Perahias are descendants of the famous general and historian who was born in Jerusalem in the year 37 CE and who died in Rome in the year 100 CE.”
Again this is not me here saying anything about me, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least four different sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent Michael Molho`s voice and invalidate his work. This is not fair and a correct thing to do, just because we don’t agree with the content. Please, don’t try to kill the voice of the most credible Jewish historians and authors of our times, like Mr. Michal Molho. His published material is considerate the guideline used by all rabies and scholars in the world. Why we cannot allow Wikipedia’s readers to read Michal Molho`s published content? One must be nuts to silent the Jewish authors, historians, and publishers.
And Michal Molho did not write this essay by himself. Here is what he wrote on the third page of the same book:
Again this is not me here saying anything about me, but struggling for the right to add credible material from at least four different sources that contains vital information for Wikipedia’s readers. We cannot silent Michael Molho`s voice and invalidate his work. This is not fair and a correct thing to do, just because we don’t agree with the content. Did we live in that time to dispute with the family and rabies their long establish claim?
3)Judah Gedaliah. Judah Gedaliah printed in 1521 the book “She'erit Yosef” in Salonika. There were two printings of She'erit Yosef in Salonika. The first was printed by Judah Gedaliah in 1521.
4) The second by Joseph ben Isaac Jabez in 1568. There are plenty references about the claim of Hacohen Perahia family and their histories and background. Please, put on your mind once for all that this family was very well know and traditional and their claim was notorious and accepted by the most prominent rabies of our times, and this information is available for people who read Jewish Literature. If you cannot read Hebrew, than see Michael Molho`s comment about this well know family and their claim, participations and histories on “She'erit Yosef” book.
5) Joseph Nehama. The first 5 volumes of the monumental work "Histoire des Israelites de Salonique" by Joseph Nehama (1880-1971) were published between 1935 and 1939, so only 70 years ago. His book also contains the information about the family, their claim, their history and their contributions to the Jewish Community in Salonika. See here a PDF file and locate the names of the Hacohen Perahia family, and the respective indication of the correct volume and pages that contains their histories, claim, and etc… See for yourself - http://www.sephardicstudies.org/pdf/NEHAMA-MASTER-INDEX.pdf
6) Isaac Samuel Emmanuel . Another illustrious author that wrote about dozens of Jewish families that lived in the XV Century including the Hacohen Perahia claim and histories. He wrote about Hacohen Perahia family, their claim, history and contribution to the Jewish Community in Salonika. This book is called “The Precious Stones of the Jews in Salonica” printed by in Israel by the Ben-Zvi Institute in 1963, only 46 years ago. This book also contains information about the Hacohen Perahia family, their claim, history and contribution for the Jewish Community in Salonika.
This is not a Original Research. We cannot silent the work of Major Jewish Literature just because certain individuals don’t link the content of this material.
If you want to see this same information, please visit the site the Genealogy in Salonika called Les Fleurs de Orient – The Genealogy of Jewish families that lived in Salonika, partner of the Jewish Museum of Thessaloniki. There you can read the well know and extensive claim published by the family.
http://www.farhi.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I3608&tree=Hassid
“In La Famille Pérahia, Molho, citing David Conforte's book, Kore ha-Dorot wrote, that tradition links Samuel to Josephus Flavius, the chronicler of Massada, ally of the Romans and famous historian. Molho goes on to write that this famous person, whose fame was somewhat tarnished as a result of the events in which he participated, belonged to a sacerdotal family and that he made a significant impact on Jewish and world history. His books The Wars of the Jews, The Antiquities of the Jews, The Life of Flavius Josephus, an Autobiography and Josephus Flavius Against Apion record Jewish history from its earliest origins through the end of the first century of the Christian era. Molho leaves no doubt that the Perahias are descendants of the famous general and historian who was born in Jerusalem in the year 37 CE and who died in Rome in the year 100 CE.”
We cannot silent the work of Major Jewish Literature, authors, rabies, historians, and publishers, just because certain individuals don’t link the content of the material that is hurting their own concepts and theories. There are 6 different reliable sources stating that HaCohen Perahia is recognized descendants of Flavius Josephus. We cannot ignore the tradition of the Jewish people, the work of the Jewish authors who spend most of their lives writing and fighting for future generations.
By the way, if you think this family never existed, please, spend only 60 seconds and read and see for yourself this link that contains many pictures of their Tombstones and also epitaphs about this well know, credible and important Jewish family.
See here http://www.cohen.org.br/images/stories/epitaphs_ofthefamily.png
Here we wretchedly see two or three desolately individuals trying to silent 6 different Jewish authors that worked very hard, and for a purpose their material survived and is now available for anyone who are really interesting in Jewish History and Literature and willing to give up their own concepts and theories. I think this whole situation is an absurd.
You will not, cannot, and don’t have the right to shut up the voice of our greatest Jewish authors, historians, rabies and publishers, ok? Who do you think you are? If you don’t agree with their published material that`s okay, but go home, take a shower and drink a Ice Tea and never try to silent their voices again, never try to kill their work and to erase a important chapter of the Jewish History. -- Chris Cohen ( talk) 02:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
"Beginning with the creation according to Genesis, he outlines Jewish history. Abraham taught science to the Egyptians..."
This is sort of confusing - and not sourced. He certainly did not teach the scientific method, which is the foundation of science as we know it today, so if anyone knows what the text says exactly and can describe it more... accurately, that would be great. Also, why is so little of this page sourced? 98.168.192.162 ( talk) 04:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
To whom it may concern,
Can you please help me. Josephus wrote in one of his books that chickens were not allowed inside the walls of Jerusalem, I think the page number is 187, can you help me with the books name and perhaps a copy of the page.
Will greatly appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.112.204.252 ( talk) 13:52, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I believe that Josephus was the first person to use this term, but i am not sure. And I am no expet on josephus. I assume those of you who watch this page are - can you confirm for me whether he did indeed coin the term and if so, where did he first use it? If he did not coin the term, where did he get it from? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering if we should expand the profile to talk more about the criticisms of Josephus because there are many scholars who discount much of his writings as politically rather than factually influenced. THDju ( talk) 12:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi. Revently I posted an external link to a page about an elaborate discussion about Flavius Josephus being Joseph of Arimathea (The biblical figure that took Jesus from the cross and burried him in his land). It is a most interesting and revolutionary piece about early chrisianity, and the role of Josephus in it. Unfortunatelly the link was discarded as a spamlink. I really think this link has an encyclopedic value for this page, and it does not violate any Wikipedia rule. I hope it will be agreed to put the link back. -- Controle2 ( talk) 16:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
tooMuchData
15:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheResearchPersona ( talk • contribs)Added some brief background information and corrected a spelling error. References provided as well. -- Tatoranaki ( talk) 17:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
The article refers to "the Genesis myth". This interjects an opinion...that the Biblical Genesis is a myth. That it is not, is a belief held by many people. It would be better to say "the creation story in Genesis" of "the Biblical story of creation" or simply "Genesis"....something of that light. Opinion has no place in encyclopedic form. Fabuladico ( talk) 02:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Included the quote by Nitsa Ben-Ari in which, to my reading, she includes Josephus "among converts who were shunned" and then considered a traitor - addressing why 19th-century scholars refused to study or translate his work. Parkwells ( talk) 17:49, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Isn't there considerable speculation that Josephus' works were written by Arius Calpurnius Piso, and that Josephus was a pen name given a fictitious background? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.205.195 ( talk) 02:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
caption under the bust reads "A Roman portrait bust said to be of Josephus, though this identification reflects an antisemitic trope that assumes that Jews have large noses. In the absence of any epigraphic evidence, this attribution cannot be supported.[1]"
so why even put it there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.171.160.130 ( talk) 04:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I can't help but notice that the claim in this article, "It was often the book after the Bible that was most frequently owned by Christians" is not one made uniquely to Josephus' work. Regarding the identity of the second most popular book owned by Christians after the Bible, serious contenders include St. Augustine's "Confessions," Thomas a Kempis' "Imitation of Christ," and John Bunyan's "A Pilgrim's Progress." If no one has any documentation substantiating this claim, I propose we change it to some more generic claim of the text's popularity, without seeking to inflate it's status with a dubious or unproved (or unprovable) claim. For example, "It was thenceforward a book popular throughout the Christian world." Thoughts? ( Mryarsawich ( talk) 15:00, 4 August 2012 (UTC))
I don't know if any one else has picked up on the fact that Flavius Josephus claims to have studied all three Jewish sects and been taught by a banus by the age of 19. The first factor is the Essenes never inducted initiates into their order until they were 20 or older.If you study the "Dead Sea Scrolls" you will understand that Josephus might be stretching the truth a little bit. Another factor is that he claims to have been taught by a banus like Yeshua/Jesus was. Was this Yohanan the banus that was kicked out of the Essenes or was there lots of profits roaming around in the wilderness just waiting to emerge to teach selected people. I find that there is something very important here if you read between the lines. Was Josephus suggesting that he was given the same knowledge that Yeshua had been given in order to gain favour with the Roman authorities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbean777 ( talk • contribs) 00:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
This claim is in dire need of a source. It directly conflicts with Josephus' own account of what transpired (The Jewish War III, 383), where he claims to have pleaded with the other survivors in the cave to reconsider their determination to commit suicide en masse. He does note, however, that upon realizing he would be unable to deter them from suicide while he himself wished to surrender to Vespasian's forces, that he suggested casting lots. Stating Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide is deceptive. AlmostSurely ( talk) 14:57, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
i have nothing to add to AlmostSurely's point (except that i agree it should be sourced). but i had a question related to this topic, and thought i'd put it here. i find this: "counting to every third person" to be incredibly confusing. i read thru the 'Josephus Problem' article. i guess "every 3rd person" works in the sense that if the 1st person to kill gets the designation "1," then the person killed would be number "3." then, if the next to kill is "4," the next to die is "6." then "7" kills "9." it continues in this way, by "3" until the end of the line is reached (or the circle is closed), when "40" kills "1" and the pattern ceases to hold. ("2" kills "5," "7" kills "10," "11" kills "14" etc.) however, with "every third person," it matters who does the 2nd killing. is it the next person AFTER the one killed ("1" kills "3" then "4" kills "6"), or is it the one who is SKIPPED ("1" kills "3" then "2" kills "5")? neither of these scenarios give one of the results from the 'Josephus Problem' article: "The first time around the circle, all of the even-numbered people die."
BUT...the JoPro article takes a different approach: "1" kills "2," "3" kills "4," "5" kills "6," and so on. this seems supported by the Josephus quote in that article, which states, "He whom the lot falls to first, let him be killed by him that hath the second lot." which ALSO does not give one of the results from that very article: "Josephus had an accomplice...It is alleged that he placed himself and the other man in the 31st and 16th place respectively." only by skipping a person, then going to the NEXT person (not the skipped person), can you end up with "16" and "31" as the remaining two people (out of 41).
well....i suppose i should see if the Talk page for the JoPro article has a discussion about this. but the phrase here is still confusing. Colbey84 ( talk) 09:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
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Too politically correct, biases the whole article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.196.249.242 ( talk) 19:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
See The Reception of Josephus in the Early Modern Period and the related articles in the same edition for a high quality set of sources to help improve this article. Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:48, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
If his name written in Hebrew was "יוסף הכהן בן מתתיהו ", then the transcription "Yosef ben Matityahu " seems incomplete, missing the "הכהן" part. "Hkhn", which which I guess should be transcribed as "HaKohen". -- Johannes Rohr ( talk) 13:05, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Please remove the prosthesis identified with Josephus. The source of this identification is the anti-Semitic motif of the great Jewish nose. There is no basis for the claim that identifies this finding with Josephus. Please correct the mistake here and everywhere else. My name is Asaf Avraham I am an Israeli archaeologist. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:ED0:5316:2500:B1BD:69E4:A9F1:8C2F ( talk) 20:01, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
My answer to Yanin Horon יניב הורון The bust is real and the nose is beautiful. But the identification is very doubtful. See the full prose in Hebrew. This identification has extremely dubious sources, probably anti-Semitic. Therefore it must be noted. Assaf Avraham — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.34.175 ( talk) 06:34, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead says Josephus "was a first-century Romano-Jewish scholar, historian and hagiographer." The word "hagiographer" does not appear anywhere else in the article. MOS:LEAD says "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Hagiography " is a biography of a saint or an ecclesiastical leader." I cannot see how this applies to Josephus at all. I think "hagiographer" should be removed but will wait to see if any objections are entered. Smeat75 ( talk) 19:39, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
To whom it might concern:
There is currently a Request for Comment on the Talk:Vita page, regarding the word entry "Vita" for Josephus' fourth book covering his Life History. Those that may have an opinion on this matter, please feel free to respond there. Davidbena ( talk) 14:18, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
"His preface to Antiquities offers his opinion early on, saying, "Upon the whole, a man that will peruse this history, may principally learn from it, that all events succeed well, even to an incredible degree, and the reward of felicity is proposed by God."[62] After inserting this attitude, Josephus contradicts himself: "I shall accurately describe what is contained in our records, in the order of time that belongs to them … without adding any thing to what is therein contained, or taking away any thing therefrom."" Perhaps I am misunderstanding the text here, so I didn't want to edit anything, but I fail to see any contradiction between these two quotes from Josephus. Can someone who is more informed on the subject take a look? Thanks. Leon181 ( talk) 07:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Since this keeps getting re-added, it's worth presenting the facts here. The image in question is [2]
Modern scholarship definitively rejects the identification of this bust as Josephus, as well as the rationale upon which it was originally made. Indeed, the first of the sources listed below explicitly criticizes Wikipedia for presenting this image as a depiction of Josephus. See e.g.
1) "How Do You Know a Jew When You See One?" by the historian Steven Fine in the collection Fashioning Jews: Clothing, Culture, and Commerce (2013), p. 19–20: [3]
2) "Distinguishing Jewishness in Antiquity" by the historian Jonathan P. Roth in the collection A Tall Order. Writing the Social History of the Ancient World (2005), p. 54: [4]
3) Bread, Wine, Walls and Scrolls by the archaeologist Magen Broshi (2001), p.47: [5].
4) Flavius Josephus Between Jerusalem and Rome by the classicist Per Bilde (2002 [1988]), p. 60: [6]
Hopefully this will be the end of the issue, until such time as a preponderance of reliable sources is produced which contradicts what is stated in these. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
We've been seeing a number of IP editors attempting to replace Palestine (region) with Judea or other alternatives recently. At first I agreed with this change, but after looking into it more closely I saw that Wikipedia's main article on the geographical region is indeed Palestine (region). I also saw that Josephus did in fact use this term. As such, Palestine appears to be the correct term / Wikilink for us to use. I invite the most recent IP range who is edit warring over this to engage here instead. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The article Timeline of the name Palestine and the sources it cites might be relevant for the present discussion. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm removing those again as they are not standard to the Latin alphabet and to English, and contain nothing relevant in the context of a biography such as this. Avilich ( talk) 20:06, 20 January 2022 (UTC)