![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Vanbrugh did not create the English Baroque style - earlier buildings by Wren are considered English Baroque (see e.g. Kerry Downes, English Baroque Architecture, London, Zwemmer, 1966) - though one could argue that he took it to a new level. I also think you've downplayed Hawksmoor's role in the design of Castle Howard and Blenheim Palace, which these days are considered collaborative works by the two architects (see e.g. Vaughan Hart, Nicholas Hawksmoor: Rebuilding Ancient Wonders, New Haven and London, Yale University Press, 2002). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spandrels ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is way too "prosey" for an encyclopedia entry. Come on, the "dreaded Bastille", no citations or anything anywhere? 24.86.144.101 ( talk) 04:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm planning a pretty complete re-write about Vanbrugh's plays, which will focus on his original comedies The Relapse and The Provoked Wife and more or less ignore all those redlinked other plays, which are mere adaptations and translations anyway. Also a big-ass cleanup of the EB prose on Vanbrugh's life and architecture, but without so much new input from me, since the comedies are my main interest. Any objections or thoughts out there? I would love to have somebody to discuss Vanbrugh with. -- Bishonen 19:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
'.....as Voltaire said, if the rooms had only been as wide as the walls were thick, the chateau would have been convenient enough.': Was Voltaire referring to Blenheim when he made this quote, because if he was, he had obviosly never been there; and if he wasn't then it needs to be taken out. Vanbrugh was not the world's greatest architect, but he wasn't as bad as this page makes him! Giano 17:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Tried to present a more balanced picture of Vanbrugh (at least as architect of Blenheim) and provide a clearer account of his friction with the Duchess of Marlborough. Removed Voltaire quote as it is less than helpful! Giano 19:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ha! If Voltaire was commenting on Blenheim, he was just being a jerk, because Blenheim was recognized in its own day as a marvel. While Vanbrugh's other buildings were loved, Blenheim Palance was regarded by contemporaries as a true showpiece of the realm. It was one of those places they took foreigners to impress them. The commission alone tells you what people thought of Vanbrugh as an architect: the commemoration of that battle was a huge deal, for Blenheim was the most famous battle of the day, next to perhaps Agincourt. Bad architect? Hardly. As a gentleman, Vanbrugh's about the last guy who upheld the old cavalier dream of an intelligent man being able to do any art with "application." Geogre 13:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, criticism of Blenheim was divided along party lines, Geogre. Giano has a crapload of sour Tory comments, and I have some too, we may make a quote section with stuff like the minnows fancying themselves whales when they approached the famous bridge (Pope). "It looks like a great college with a church in the middle". I just got a very complicated edit conflict, that I had to give up on, from getting held up forever by the server, trying to edit the article. :-( -- Bishonen 16:05, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Interesting. I didn't know Vanbrugh was such a Whig. I would have thought that being hated by Sarah Churchill would have endeared him somewhat. Also, Howard was a friend to Pope. These things seemed to change year by year. Phillips was a friend/enemy; Cibber was a friend/enemy; Rich was a villain/producer of Gay's. All those comments have to be read politically (and many of Johnson's, too, but that's an aside). Geogre 21:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, wait. That's not such an aside. Voltaire visited England with whom? Ah, yes. Samuel Johnson, the Whig hater (and the generally previous generation not liker and the rake hater). Well, not conclusive, but a thing. Geogre 22:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Voltaire:"A witty saying proves nothing." In this case so very true! Giano 12:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The subtitles for the separate plays introduced by User:ALoan were problematic in that they pulled the paragraph about Jeremy Collier and the change in audience taste in under the heading of The Provoked Wife, where it doesn't belong. I have now padded the paragraph slightly and given it its own subtitle, but I'm not sure it's the best thing to do. Having all these short sections with individual titles looks choppy and breaks flow. At the same time, the more easily the reader can find stuff from looking at the TOC, the better, of course. -- Bishonen 13:08, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the thumbs-up, Filiocht. Since User:ALoan hasn't so far discussed any of his changes on this page, I don't think I'll be quite as conscientious as above in the future about possible changes of mine to his edits, either. But of course I won't do anything drastic without taking it to this page first, as I'm sure ALoan won't either.-- Bishonen 23:27, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Good morning Bishonen, I've left you an email about the finale for your thoughts. The 'see also' section seems to have an external link to Kimbolton Castle, I haven't mentioned this in the text as to list every house with a desription would be tedious for the reader, but if Kimbolton is to remain then there must be mention of the others, these are all in a mish mash of styles depending on the whim of the owner and patron, so little to do with V's architectural concepts and ideals. I think you had some plays etc. on 'see also' - Why have you removed them? If you don't want them there we might as well remove the whole section. I will put a explanation on talk page as to why I haven't banged on for pages about other designs. Giano 09:58, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All right, now Neutrality has deleted the "Related topics" section also, I guess I give up. Neutrality, if you read this page, could you please look at the discussion above and let me know if you agree about the problem for readers of knowing which links are actually useful in amongst all the blue, and if you have any suggestion for helping with it?-- Bishonen 16:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Crossposted
User Talk:Neutrality/
Talk:John Vanbrugh:
Hi, Neutrality, please don't think I don't value the interest you take in improving John Vanbrugh! It takes me a while to answer sometimes, because I'm pretty busy (and slow). I totally share your concern about length, "scrolling length" as well as kilobyte size, and I take your point that "See also" is not intended for terms that have already been linked in the article text. I suppose renaming the section "Related topics" didn't make as much difference as I thought? It was probably altogether a mistake to try to shoehorn our "Small set of useful links culled from the big set of article wikilinks" collection into a format intended for something else, and I'm trying to think of alternatives. Meanwhile, though, I think I should also try to explain why I'm so interested in having a collection like that at all.
A lot, I mean a lot, of the 17th-18th century terms, and especially names, that are linked in the article lead to not merely weak articles, but to actually worse-than-nothing articles, especially in the field of Restoration comedy, the form that Vanbrugh wrote. This includes big, important figures like William Congreve and William Wycherley, important plays, major topics ...lots of very central stuff. Many or most of those articles are 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica text dumps. I realize it may sound very extreme to call 1911 articles "worse than nothing": isn't a little information always better than none? Well, I think not in this case, because:
I still think it's right to link to all existing articles in the text of John Vanbrugh. Wikipedia is dynamic, and bad articles are being improved all the time. I'm rewriting the 1911 Restoration drama articles as fast as I can myself, but I haven't been here very long, I don't have that much time, and few other Wikipedians seem to be working in late 17th and 18th century literature. There's Geogre, who writes great articles, and... well, there's Geogre, I haven't actually seen any traces of anyone else. I could have missed them, but whenever I look around at articles on the drama, thaat I take the most interest in, nobody seems to have touched those articles since they were created, as either stubs or 1911 text or a combination. Well, touched them substantively, I mean. They get categories and wikilinks, but the text stays the same.
My point is that there is some good information on Restoration comedy and related topics on Wikipedia, but at present it's terribly hard to find it from following wikilinks in the John Vanbrugh text. I hope that will change, but I'd like also to give the reader some help now. I do understand that a "See also" section is not the right way, I'm trying to think of something else. You have a lot of editing experience, if you have any ideas for alternatives I hope you'll share them. If I called the section something completely different, do you think it might be OK to put the links side by side in one line, rather than having them add scrolling length the way they do?-- Bishonen 00:35, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC). (Sorry for the screed.)
Now that John Vanbrugh is about to get Featured article status after a great reception on WP:FAC, I'm refactoring this page, because I'm tired of seeing the misleading notice about an original "failed nomination". The earlier nomination was of an experimental draft page and was withdrawn by the authors as soon as they became aware of it, after about five hours. That's not what's normally understood by a failed nomination. (Please see previous page versions in History, e. g. 30 October 2004, if you want to read the removed section!)-- Bishonen 00:45, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At least in my opinion, this article is a strong FA nomination. If the hard working authors agree, simply indicate it, and I'll nominate the article. I know that I, at least, can see nothing to add. Geogre 04:01, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think to reduce it would be a pity, as it is intended to be a fully comprehensive as possible, like the architecture the plays are discussed in their relationship to each other, and their relevanvce to each stage of Vanbrugh's carreer. Thanks for the copy edit, but there seems to be a large void in the Blenheim section, where I think the pictures are now too small especially the monumental gate which now appears a trifle less monumental and squat. Giano 14:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On the subject of the pictures, one thing I'm doing now for the Jonathan Wild article is using the image description to actually put in some notes. I'm not recommending anything, but it is one way to make things shorter: you can say, "see the enlarged image for more details" and then use the image page to make salient points. Like I said, that's not a recommendation, just a possibility. I see little to improve in the article and no seams at which anything can be cut. Geogre 03:22, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I just noticed that the heading of the "References" section has been changed to "Sources". According to Wikipedia:Guide to layout, part of the Manual of style, a section called "References", with the contents this one has, is supposed to be one of the "standardized appendices". Could the user who made the change please explain why they think "Sources" is a better heading? (It's not quite a synonym, sources are a subset of references.) Btw, it's a good idea to mention changes made, either in the edit field or on this page, especially small but significant changes like this, so others are made aware of them. It would also be preferable not to have to dig through what is by now a daunting History to find who made a change.-- Bishonen 02:41, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Somebody changed my "such severity was in fact rarely to be seen on the English stage before Ibsen" in the Legacy section to "before the influence of Ibsen". I can understand if the original sounded a little unexpected, with Ibsen being a Norwegian playwright, but it was actually intended and correct. It was the plays of Ibsen himself, not of English Ibsen followers, that created a great sensation on the, yes, English stage, and made English theatrical history in the nineteenth century. I have changed it back. I was thinking of Ibsen's A Doll's House — maybe I should put that title in, but it seems a little overweening — it would puff up Vanbrugh's "A Journey to London" beyond its deserts.-- Bishonen 16:33, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since this article is about the man, and there is an article about the palace, it seems to me that the details about the palace need to be moved/blended into Blenheim Palace. This article's plenty long enough with all that. Elf | Talk 02:32, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Even in Biology there are
lumpers and
splitters ;>) --
Wetman 14:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The above editors are completely correct - the information concerning Blenheim Palace should definitely remain here. There is room for a great deal of improvement at Blenheim Palace, however, the information here is relevant to how Vanbrugh developed an architectural concept and style. Blenheim was a midway point in this concept, if Blenheim goes then one is left with Castle Howard the beginning and Seaton Delaval Hall at the conclusion - two houses both in Vanbrugh's form of baroque - diversely different but with no link showing development. Further Blenheim information here also covers Vanbrugh's relationship with his client and is relevant to Vanbrugh on a personal level. There is no information here on the interiors or furnishings or subsequent landscaping at Blenheim, or the belle epoque transformation of the Blenheim state rooms into a pastiche of Versailles. There are also a wide spectrum of characters who have inhabited the palace who led interesting lives, all this will hopefully appear one day at Blenheim. Giano 08:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, MisfitToys, thanks for helpful copyediting—though I changed "18th century" etc. back to "18th-century", because that's the correct spelling when used attributively, as in "18th-century" literature—please check it out, you'll see that it's only in the attributive position that the page uses the hyphen. I also took out the "earlier" that you inserted in "Kerry Downes has shown in his well-researched modern biography (1987) that even the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Dictionary of National Biography repeat 18th- and 19th-century traditions which were originally offered as guesses but have hardened into "fact" in the process of being passed on. This accounts for several discrepancies between these earlier authorities and the following narrative etc", because it's a misunderstanding—I meant to say that it accounts for, ahem, cough, this article being more reliable than those in the EB and DNB, since they're based on outdated information while this is based on current research. I. e., I was talking about the current, latest editions of EB and DNB. I thought it needed saying (politely) that it's Wikipedia that's right and the EB that's wrong— otherwise maybe a reader will notice the quite striking discrepancies and go "See, Wikipedia's unreliable, they say differently from the EB." Scholars are aware that EB articles on minor 18th-century (hyphen) figures haven't been updated, other than stylistically, since the late 19th century (see? No hyphen that time!), but to the ordinary reader, EB is just the touchstone of reliability by which everything else is judged. Anyway. I'm glad you put in "earlier", because it made me realise I'd failed to make my meaning clear. I've reformulated it now. I do appreciate your help. Bishonen | Talk 23:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First, this seems to be an excellent article — good work, whoever was responsible. However, I'm unsure about the following passages: "Kerry Downes has shown in his well-researched modern biography (1987) that even the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Dictionary of National Biography repeat 18th- and 19th-century traditions which were originally offered as guesses but have hardened into "fact" in the process of being passed on. This accounts for several discrepancies between the entries in these encyclopædias and the following narrative, which is based on the findings of Downes (1987) and McCormick (1991)." and "stated as fact in the Dictionary of National Biography)." and "See also the caution in Early life, above, about the basis of both these articles in traditional rather than scholarly sources."
To me, this feels very near to gloating about the failings of other reference works, which would (of course) be quite unseemly. It's great, of course, that Wikipedia puts these lesser works to shame, but we don't need to emphasise this within articles. Even more than that, it just seems a little off-topic. When a reader is looking for a concise summary of John Vanbrugh's life and work, it seems quite irrelevant to launch straight away into a discussion — not of Vanbrugh's early life — but into criticism of errors in rival works! I suggest we stick to the facts as they are now established; any discussion of discrepancies in other biographies should be, in my opinion, removed, or at least placed in a footnote, or kept confined to the "Sources" section.
Out of curiosity, the Dictionary of National Biography has recently been revised; do the errors persist in this version?
These are just my thoughts on what is otherwise a top-notch article. Good stuff! — Matt Crypto 00:27, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
<!-- NOTE! If you're correcting this fact based on the EB or ODB, please see the talk page -- these sources are known to contain inaccuracies on this topic -->
. The reasoning is that if something's primarily aimed at an editor, it really belongs either as a comment or on the Talk: page, not integrated within the article text.
— Matt Crypto 11:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)It's been quite a while since we saw such an aggressive little edit summary but it looks as though the vacation we've been granted is over. We hope this is not the start of a vindictive little control campaign. With 719,384 articles to work on, there must be something to do that's not confrontational. Cluttering articles with "info" boxes that contain no fresh information seems to lack a certain desirable freshness and originality. -- Wetman 00:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
( User:Ta bu shi da yu has contacted nine like-minded Wikipedians to throw their weight around at this Talkpage on this subject. See that User's recent contributions for an idea of what to expect. -- Wetman 03:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC))
TBSDY suggested that I weigh in on the infobox debate, so here I am. I've looked at both no-infobox and infobox versions of the article. I'm slightly pro-infobox simply on the grounds that it presents birth and death locations which are otherwise buried in the text. IMO, this outweighs the disadvantage of the slightly smaller portrait - if someone wants to see it in all its glory, they can just click it anyway. -- Jacj 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Neto, I think your picking up the infobox edit war where Ta bu shi da yu left off was the direct cause of the article getting protected. Your only input on the subject so far has been the single word "infobox" in the edit summary. IMO both Ta bu and you reverted against consensus. If "infobox" is all you have to say about it, I guess the article will stay protected for a good long time. :-( Bishonen | talk 01:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I have unprotected this page. No discussion has happened at all in the 10 days it has been protected. Please do not start the edit war again, or I'll be back. :( -- Phroziac ( talk) 14:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm unprotecting again for the same reason as before: no discussion. If there is a resumption of the edit war I will find another way to stop it. I don't think either of the warring parties would like that. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
If this edit war starts again and is missed by User talk:Phroziac, I'll protect the page. Please try to work out a consensus, preferrably not by polling. Meanwhile, just leave things as they are. Filiocht | The kettle's on 13:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Netoholic is a disgrace. He is constantly warring with other editors. Why has he not been banned yet? Jooler 22:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Would you fine people please stop edit warring over this? For want of a better expression, it's lame. It's only a box, for goodness sake! There are more important things... I know it's not the politically-correct thing, but even a poll would be better than having this page protected every other day. — Matt Crypto 23:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for keeping the infobox. Although it seems the regular editors of the article disagree.... perhaps we could come to a comprimise somehow? Ryan Norton T | @ | C 23:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The box is stupid, cartoonish, and destructive, but the point here is that no one has the right to keep going to 3RR to insert it. Enumerate the advantages of redundancy here, and exclude "consistency," please, because you'll first need to make all subjects of biography consistent before you can make their lives consistent so that you can consistently jam in a box that half the legitimate voters on TFD want actually deleted, not merely unused. Otherwise, one person inserting it over and over and over and over and over and, when unblocked, over again, while five to six people keep removing it is disruption of Wikipedia. Let Netoholic go find one of those lovely 1911 text dumps and then go find a photo, extract the information, and insert this box-of-destiny, but don't take an article that has already been approved as already exhibiting the best of Wikipedia and try to mangle it to make his childish and churlish point. Geogre 15:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
As an "outsider" to the whole edit-war over the infobox on this particular page, I'll put in my own two cents... I generally like the concept of infoboxes as a way of getting some consistency in the articles of a particular type. I created the infobox for top-level domains, for instance, and I was one of the main people putting infoboxes on all the articles on popes (though I didn't actually create that particular infobox). I've also put the infobox for games on several game articles. Thus, I'll speak out in favor of adding the biography infobox here, though I have no intention of getting into an edit war by actually doing it if it's against the view of many others. *Dan T.* 17:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is a truly wonderful narrative of the man's life, but is there any way that someone could have in-line citations put in. I wasn't involved in the artcicle at all, but I know that today FACs need to have inline references, or they don't make the cut. I count to in line references and one note in this article. Thoughts?-- dave-- 20:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank for the note, Bishonen. Glad to see that the issue has been tackled before...and so recently. I had not noticed the parenthetical documentation in my brief reading of the text. Have a great day. Blessings.-- dave-- 01:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This article clearly needs inline cites, so why was it allowed for the Main Page? What a joke. LuciferMorgan 13:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow contributors
MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.
There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:
Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
This sentence from the introductory paragraph seems inappropriately biased and laudatory for an encyclopedia article: "His architectural work was as bold and daring as his early political activism and marriage-themed plays, and jarred conservative opinions on the subject." This implies that Vanbrugh's views were in line with what would now be considered "liberal" attitudes toward women and gender relations, which is at the very least debatable, given some of the content of his plays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.176.186 ( talk) 21:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed the guide to pronouncing his name and it seems, well, a little odd. Surely it should be Van-bra, with a short a (i.e., not Van-brahhh), rather than Van-brew?
[1] = Inappropriate use of the ROLLBACK tool, by user GiacomoReturned. Please discuss on the talk page, and do not misuse the rollback tool. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The lede/intro of this article is a bit too short. It fails WP:LEAD. With respect to both the size and scope of the rest of the article, it does not adequately summarize the entire articles contents and fails to function as a standalone overview. The lede should be expanded upon. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The tone of this article infuses the POV of the article-writer and/or individual Wikipedians, without attributing this to secondary sources. One among multiple possible examples is:
This inappropriate style of tone should be removed. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Page numbers for cites where the author's name is cited are missing in multiple key places. In order more fully satisfy WP:V, page numbers should be provided for all cites. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Why were these reverted? And the edit summary was also insulting, why was this done? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
[3] -- Does this cite verify the specific dates of birth and death for this individual? -- Cirt ( talk) 23:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
[5] - I tagged some spots where citations and pages numbers for cites are needed. These were removed with no explanation. Perhaps we could discuss here how to further improve this page. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
If somebody makes an edit and you don't agree with it, take it to the talk. And take it to the talk before you revert them for the third time. And don't revert them whilst you're discussing the disagreement. And stop reverting over silly things. Play ball, or find yourself blocked. Our readers don't want you using our articles to play fisticuffs; that's what the talk page is for. Though, fwiw, this is laughable—
My talk page is always open if you lot are having problems. AGK 02:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
@AGK, other articles I've been involved in, such as iPad are actually sourced with inline citations that carefully, and Sex Pistols which was on the front page yesterday has 233 inline citations, which you can only get to by citing things quite carefully. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 06:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Sex Pistols was on the front page yesterday, I think that is likely to make it a good example of a high quality FA... -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 17:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
These should be re-linked somewhere else in the article, as they are now not linked to at all. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Its getting rather long, so anyone object? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Given that these are facts they should probably all be sourced anyone object to the addition of a {{ref-improve-section}} tag? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Quite possibly :), but I wanted to make my position clear and not have an extended discussion on the topic. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I was going through the article to check for superfluous citation needed's and I noticed that the last three paragraphs of this section aren't particularly well written. Can they be improved? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 12:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I've removed them from the article as they need lots of sources and aren't well written. For posterity they are below: -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
He also had the unusual skill, for an architect, of delivering the goods that his clients required. citation needed His reputation has suffered because of his famed disagreements with the Duchess of Marlborough, yet, one must remember his original client was the British Nation, not the Duchess and the nation wanted a monument and celebration of victory, and that is what Vanbrugh gave the nation.
His influence on successive architects is incalculable. citation needed Nicholas Hawksmoor, Vanbrugh's friend and collaborator on so many projects continued to design many London churches for ten years after Vanbrugh's death. Vanbrugh's pupil and cousin the architect Edward Lovett Pearce rose to become one of Ireland's greatest architects. His influence in Yorkshire can also be seen in the work of the amateur architect William Wakefield who designed several buildings in the county that show Vanbrugh's influence.
Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain, citation needed by inns, street names, a university college ( York) and schools named in his honour, but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the ever present influence of his architecture. citation needed
"remembered throughout Britain":
Probably a lot more; probably OR, but hope it helps anyway. -- RexxS ( talk) 20:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
^^ Undoubtably 'both' :p. But seriously even given the noise and taking it with a pinch of salt I'd expect him to make the top 100 for such a strong claim of popularity to be plausible without a reliable source to back it up. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain,[citation needed] by inns, street names, a university college (York) and schools named in his honour, -- well of course he's not remembered by the kind of birdbrain who'd canonize Mrs Windsor or seek Deep Meaning in "Karma Chameleon". Suggestion: remove the comma: Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain by at least one inn,( The Vanbrugh, Greenwich) street names,[list] a university college ( Vanbrugh college, York University) and schools[citation needed] named in his honour,. Nuff said? -- Hoary ( talk) 22:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh I wouldn't call it unilateral. It simply seems nobody is particularly bothered if this article remains with a bauble on the top of it if the cost is such appaling mutilation. I mean, good grief - should we be citing a pub called the "Vanbrugh" to have to prove the statement. Ludicrous. -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 21:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
From the list of works its not particularly extensive, most of them have been demolished or completely rebuilt. The only surviving ones are the Orangery at Kensington Palace, the Greenwich Hospital, the state rooms at Hampton court and the Ordnance Board Building, Woolwich - given the size of London that isn't actually that many. If you want to claim he influenced other people who did build lots of other buildings in London that's fine if it is backed up with a reliable source. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I've protected this for a brief period due to the edit warring. Discuss or go for a walk, folks. Risker ( talk) 21:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Isn't this rather long as its not hugely important to the article? Wouldn't it be better if it was summarised as a paragraph? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 13:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The main thing I've done is add sources, I don't see why anyone would object to that... -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Now back on topic, it still isn't clear why 4 paragraphs are needed on another playwrights play and why this couldn't be condensed per WP:SUMMARY with the rest of the content in that article. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Information brought to you by Bishonen.
The FAR/FARC of John Vanbrugh has been closed by SandyGeorgia because of abuse, see Wikipedia:Featured article review/John Vanbrugh/archive1. Specifically, the citation style has been changed without consensus; the article has not been improved during the FAR, but rather damaged; and my own request for more time because of health issues, which was endorsed by delegate Dana boomer, has been ignored. Here is the wording of SandyGeorgia's close:
Bishonen | talk 21:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC).
She's not on the list... The featured article director, Raul654, or his delegates YellowMonkey and Dana boomer -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Y'all are confused; I don't close FARs, but I can enter a declaration. End of story (I hope). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
This was indeed a pleasing article in late April compared with the state that it's in now.
There's a lot of talk in the mercifully suspended FAR about an unwonted change in citation style. I wonder what really happened. Here (from early May) was my own first, very minor contribution to this article. I thereby increased the number of notes from 12 to 14. I did so because sourcing (via one method or another) was clearly warranted, because notes were already used (as they had been even before this FAR started), and because notes could be used to add this information more neatly than could any alternative I could think of.
The main impact I've had on this article is in the transformation from this entirely unsourced list of architectural works to this sourced one. This change accounts for one third or more of the number of footnotes added since April; so if footnotes per se irritate you, direct your barbs at me. Indeed, most of the additional sourcing here seems otiose: if an item is bluelinked to an article that clearly and sourcedly says that the work is in whole or in part by Vanbrugh, this is all we need -- it's only the redlinks that should need to be sourced. On the other hand footnotes that are hardly needed here also seem harmless: as this is anyway a mere list, footnotes can hardly be said to impair its readability.
I wonder where the article should go from here, and, more locally, what should be done about the sourcing of the list of architectural works -- whether the footnotes for works with articles should be retained, converted, or deleted. -- Hoary ( talk) 21:57, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough on the revert for now. The only other thing I've removed from the article is the final 3 paragraphs of the legacy section mentioned in the section above (of which one has been readded). Other than that my only non-sourcing changes have been adding a couple of sentences on the Duchess and Nicolas Hawksmoor and that Blenhiem is now a world heritage site (though the latter could do with some grammar improvements). -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
What is the family connection referred to in the portion of the article headed Early life and background?
"The picture of a well-connected youth is reinforced by the fact that Vanbrugh in January 1686 took up an officer's commission in his distant relative the Earl of Huntingdon's foot regiment"
I can find no blood or marriage link between them. Eddaido ( talk) 12:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this edit [6] When writing this page, these references were used. When people were bleeting that facts were not referenced, all they had to do was read the listed references. Funny old world isn't it? Giacomo 07:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Vanbrugh/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
needs inline citations -- plange 21:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 21:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
It has a long list of pics down the left, at least as I view it (with an unmodified "skin", under Epiphany).
I read
=== Playwright === {| class="floatright" |- | [[File:Colley Cibber.jpg|thumb|u
blah blah. Is the syntax correct here? This collection isn't being floated. ("Floatright" is explained here.) -- Hoary ( talk) 10:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
As quote should be explicitly sourced does anyone have a source for Voltaire's quote on Blenheim Palace: "a great mass of stone with neither charm nor taste". I had a quick Google and couldn't find anything (other than this page and obvious ripoffs) either on the main search or on Google Books/Scholar. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Is it just me or does the gallery need a trim? We can't post photos of all Vanbrugh's works - it'd take up too much room. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Vanbrugh did not create the English Baroque style - earlier buildings by Wren are considered English Baroque (see e.g. Kerry Downes, English Baroque Architecture, London, Zwemmer, 1966) - though one could argue that he took it to a new level. I also think you've downplayed Hawksmoor's role in the design of Castle Howard and Blenheim Palace, which these days are considered collaborative works by the two architects (see e.g. Vaughan Hart, Nicholas Hawksmoor: Rebuilding Ancient Wonders, New Haven and London, Yale University Press, 2002). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spandrels ( talk • contribs) 00:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
The opening paragraph is way too "prosey" for an encyclopedia entry. Come on, the "dreaded Bastille", no citations or anything anywhere? 24.86.144.101 ( talk) 04:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm planning a pretty complete re-write about Vanbrugh's plays, which will focus on his original comedies The Relapse and The Provoked Wife and more or less ignore all those redlinked other plays, which are mere adaptations and translations anyway. Also a big-ass cleanup of the EB prose on Vanbrugh's life and architecture, but without so much new input from me, since the comedies are my main interest. Any objections or thoughts out there? I would love to have somebody to discuss Vanbrugh with. -- Bishonen 19:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
'.....as Voltaire said, if the rooms had only been as wide as the walls were thick, the chateau would have been convenient enough.': Was Voltaire referring to Blenheim when he made this quote, because if he was, he had obviosly never been there; and if he wasn't then it needs to be taken out. Vanbrugh was not the world's greatest architect, but he wasn't as bad as this page makes him! Giano 17:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Tried to present a more balanced picture of Vanbrugh (at least as architect of Blenheim) and provide a clearer account of his friction with the Duchess of Marlborough. Removed Voltaire quote as it is less than helpful! Giano 19:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ha! If Voltaire was commenting on Blenheim, he was just being a jerk, because Blenheim was recognized in its own day as a marvel. While Vanbrugh's other buildings were loved, Blenheim Palance was regarded by contemporaries as a true showpiece of the realm. It was one of those places they took foreigners to impress them. The commission alone tells you what people thought of Vanbrugh as an architect: the commemoration of that battle was a huge deal, for Blenheim was the most famous battle of the day, next to perhaps Agincourt. Bad architect? Hardly. As a gentleman, Vanbrugh's about the last guy who upheld the old cavalier dream of an intelligent man being able to do any art with "application." Geogre 13:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, criticism of Blenheim was divided along party lines, Geogre. Giano has a crapload of sour Tory comments, and I have some too, we may make a quote section with stuff like the minnows fancying themselves whales when they approached the famous bridge (Pope). "It looks like a great college with a church in the middle". I just got a very complicated edit conflict, that I had to give up on, from getting held up forever by the server, trying to edit the article. :-( -- Bishonen 16:05, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Interesting. I didn't know Vanbrugh was such a Whig. I would have thought that being hated by Sarah Churchill would have endeared him somewhat. Also, Howard was a friend to Pope. These things seemed to change year by year. Phillips was a friend/enemy; Cibber was a friend/enemy; Rich was a villain/producer of Gay's. All those comments have to be read politically (and many of Johnson's, too, but that's an aside). Geogre 21:41, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, wait. That's not such an aside. Voltaire visited England with whom? Ah, yes. Samuel Johnson, the Whig hater (and the generally previous generation not liker and the rake hater). Well, not conclusive, but a thing. Geogre 22:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Voltaire:"A witty saying proves nothing." In this case so very true! Giano 12:33, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The subtitles for the separate plays introduced by User:ALoan were problematic in that they pulled the paragraph about Jeremy Collier and the change in audience taste in under the heading of The Provoked Wife, where it doesn't belong. I have now padded the paragraph slightly and given it its own subtitle, but I'm not sure it's the best thing to do. Having all these short sections with individual titles looks choppy and breaks flow. At the same time, the more easily the reader can find stuff from looking at the TOC, the better, of course. -- Bishonen 13:08, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the thumbs-up, Filiocht. Since User:ALoan hasn't so far discussed any of his changes on this page, I don't think I'll be quite as conscientious as above in the future about possible changes of mine to his edits, either. But of course I won't do anything drastic without taking it to this page first, as I'm sure ALoan won't either.-- Bishonen 23:27, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Good morning Bishonen, I've left you an email about the finale for your thoughts. The 'see also' section seems to have an external link to Kimbolton Castle, I haven't mentioned this in the text as to list every house with a desription would be tedious for the reader, but if Kimbolton is to remain then there must be mention of the others, these are all in a mish mash of styles depending on the whim of the owner and patron, so little to do with V's architectural concepts and ideals. I think you had some plays etc. on 'see also' - Why have you removed them? If you don't want them there we might as well remove the whole section. I will put a explanation on talk page as to why I haven't banged on for pages about other designs. Giano 09:58, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All right, now Neutrality has deleted the "Related topics" section also, I guess I give up. Neutrality, if you read this page, could you please look at the discussion above and let me know if you agree about the problem for readers of knowing which links are actually useful in amongst all the blue, and if you have any suggestion for helping with it?-- Bishonen 16:41, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Crossposted
User Talk:Neutrality/
Talk:John Vanbrugh:
Hi, Neutrality, please don't think I don't value the interest you take in improving John Vanbrugh! It takes me a while to answer sometimes, because I'm pretty busy (and slow). I totally share your concern about length, "scrolling length" as well as kilobyte size, and I take your point that "See also" is not intended for terms that have already been linked in the article text. I suppose renaming the section "Related topics" didn't make as much difference as I thought? It was probably altogether a mistake to try to shoehorn our "Small set of useful links culled from the big set of article wikilinks" collection into a format intended for something else, and I'm trying to think of alternatives. Meanwhile, though, I think I should also try to explain why I'm so interested in having a collection like that at all.
A lot, I mean a lot, of the 17th-18th century terms, and especially names, that are linked in the article lead to not merely weak articles, but to actually worse-than-nothing articles, especially in the field of Restoration comedy, the form that Vanbrugh wrote. This includes big, important figures like William Congreve and William Wycherley, important plays, major topics ...lots of very central stuff. Many or most of those articles are 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica text dumps. I realize it may sound very extreme to call 1911 articles "worse than nothing": isn't a little information always better than none? Well, I think not in this case, because:
I still think it's right to link to all existing articles in the text of John Vanbrugh. Wikipedia is dynamic, and bad articles are being improved all the time. I'm rewriting the 1911 Restoration drama articles as fast as I can myself, but I haven't been here very long, I don't have that much time, and few other Wikipedians seem to be working in late 17th and 18th century literature. There's Geogre, who writes great articles, and... well, there's Geogre, I haven't actually seen any traces of anyone else. I could have missed them, but whenever I look around at articles on the drama, thaat I take the most interest in, nobody seems to have touched those articles since they were created, as either stubs or 1911 text or a combination. Well, touched them substantively, I mean. They get categories and wikilinks, but the text stays the same.
My point is that there is some good information on Restoration comedy and related topics on Wikipedia, but at present it's terribly hard to find it from following wikilinks in the John Vanbrugh text. I hope that will change, but I'd like also to give the reader some help now. I do understand that a "See also" section is not the right way, I'm trying to think of something else. You have a lot of editing experience, if you have any ideas for alternatives I hope you'll share them. If I called the section something completely different, do you think it might be OK to put the links side by side in one line, rather than having them add scrolling length the way they do?-- Bishonen 00:35, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC). (Sorry for the screed.)
Now that John Vanbrugh is about to get Featured article status after a great reception on WP:FAC, I'm refactoring this page, because I'm tired of seeing the misleading notice about an original "failed nomination". The earlier nomination was of an experimental draft page and was withdrawn by the authors as soon as they became aware of it, after about five hours. That's not what's normally understood by a failed nomination. (Please see previous page versions in History, e. g. 30 October 2004, if you want to read the removed section!)-- Bishonen 00:45, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
At least in my opinion, this article is a strong FA nomination. If the hard working authors agree, simply indicate it, and I'll nominate the article. I know that I, at least, can see nothing to add. Geogre 04:01, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think to reduce it would be a pity, as it is intended to be a fully comprehensive as possible, like the architecture the plays are discussed in their relationship to each other, and their relevanvce to each stage of Vanbrugh's carreer. Thanks for the copy edit, but there seems to be a large void in the Blenheim section, where I think the pictures are now too small especially the monumental gate which now appears a trifle less monumental and squat. Giano 14:20, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On the subject of the pictures, one thing I'm doing now for the Jonathan Wild article is using the image description to actually put in some notes. I'm not recommending anything, but it is one way to make things shorter: you can say, "see the enlarged image for more details" and then use the image page to make salient points. Like I said, that's not a recommendation, just a possibility. I see little to improve in the article and no seams at which anything can be cut. Geogre 03:22, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I just noticed that the heading of the "References" section has been changed to "Sources". According to Wikipedia:Guide to layout, part of the Manual of style, a section called "References", with the contents this one has, is supposed to be one of the "standardized appendices". Could the user who made the change please explain why they think "Sources" is a better heading? (It's not quite a synonym, sources are a subset of references.) Btw, it's a good idea to mention changes made, either in the edit field or on this page, especially small but significant changes like this, so others are made aware of them. It would also be preferable not to have to dig through what is by now a daunting History to find who made a change.-- Bishonen 02:41, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Somebody changed my "such severity was in fact rarely to be seen on the English stage before Ibsen" in the Legacy section to "before the influence of Ibsen". I can understand if the original sounded a little unexpected, with Ibsen being a Norwegian playwright, but it was actually intended and correct. It was the plays of Ibsen himself, not of English Ibsen followers, that created a great sensation on the, yes, English stage, and made English theatrical history in the nineteenth century. I have changed it back. I was thinking of Ibsen's A Doll's House — maybe I should put that title in, but it seems a little overweening — it would puff up Vanbrugh's "A Journey to London" beyond its deserts.-- Bishonen 16:33, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since this article is about the man, and there is an article about the palace, it seems to me that the details about the palace need to be moved/blended into Blenheim Palace. This article's plenty long enough with all that. Elf | Talk 02:32, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Even in Biology there are
lumpers and
splitters ;>) --
Wetman 14:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The above editors are completely correct - the information concerning Blenheim Palace should definitely remain here. There is room for a great deal of improvement at Blenheim Palace, however, the information here is relevant to how Vanbrugh developed an architectural concept and style. Blenheim was a midway point in this concept, if Blenheim goes then one is left with Castle Howard the beginning and Seaton Delaval Hall at the conclusion - two houses both in Vanbrugh's form of baroque - diversely different but with no link showing development. Further Blenheim information here also covers Vanbrugh's relationship with his client and is relevant to Vanbrugh on a personal level. There is no information here on the interiors or furnishings or subsequent landscaping at Blenheim, or the belle epoque transformation of the Blenheim state rooms into a pastiche of Versailles. There are also a wide spectrum of characters who have inhabited the palace who led interesting lives, all this will hopefully appear one day at Blenheim. Giano 08:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, MisfitToys, thanks for helpful copyediting—though I changed "18th century" etc. back to "18th-century", because that's the correct spelling when used attributively, as in "18th-century" literature—please check it out, you'll see that it's only in the attributive position that the page uses the hyphen. I also took out the "earlier" that you inserted in "Kerry Downes has shown in his well-researched modern biography (1987) that even the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Dictionary of National Biography repeat 18th- and 19th-century traditions which were originally offered as guesses but have hardened into "fact" in the process of being passed on. This accounts for several discrepancies between these earlier authorities and the following narrative etc", because it's a misunderstanding—I meant to say that it accounts for, ahem, cough, this article being more reliable than those in the EB and DNB, since they're based on outdated information while this is based on current research. I. e., I was talking about the current, latest editions of EB and DNB. I thought it needed saying (politely) that it's Wikipedia that's right and the EB that's wrong— otherwise maybe a reader will notice the quite striking discrepancies and go "See, Wikipedia's unreliable, they say differently from the EB." Scholars are aware that EB articles on minor 18th-century (hyphen) figures haven't been updated, other than stylistically, since the late 19th century (see? No hyphen that time!), but to the ordinary reader, EB is just the touchstone of reliability by which everything else is judged. Anyway. I'm glad you put in "earlier", because it made me realise I'd failed to make my meaning clear. I've reformulated it now. I do appreciate your help. Bishonen | Talk 23:02, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First, this seems to be an excellent article — good work, whoever was responsible. However, I'm unsure about the following passages: "Kerry Downes has shown in his well-researched modern biography (1987) that even the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Dictionary of National Biography repeat 18th- and 19th-century traditions which were originally offered as guesses but have hardened into "fact" in the process of being passed on. This accounts for several discrepancies between the entries in these encyclopædias and the following narrative, which is based on the findings of Downes (1987) and McCormick (1991)." and "stated as fact in the Dictionary of National Biography)." and "See also the caution in Early life, above, about the basis of both these articles in traditional rather than scholarly sources."
To me, this feels very near to gloating about the failings of other reference works, which would (of course) be quite unseemly. It's great, of course, that Wikipedia puts these lesser works to shame, but we don't need to emphasise this within articles. Even more than that, it just seems a little off-topic. When a reader is looking for a concise summary of John Vanbrugh's life and work, it seems quite irrelevant to launch straight away into a discussion — not of Vanbrugh's early life — but into criticism of errors in rival works! I suggest we stick to the facts as they are now established; any discussion of discrepancies in other biographies should be, in my opinion, removed, or at least placed in a footnote, or kept confined to the "Sources" section.
Out of curiosity, the Dictionary of National Biography has recently been revised; do the errors persist in this version?
These are just my thoughts on what is otherwise a top-notch article. Good stuff! — Matt Crypto 00:27, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
<!-- NOTE! If you're correcting this fact based on the EB or ODB, please see the talk page -- these sources are known to contain inaccuracies on this topic -->
. The reasoning is that if something's primarily aimed at an editor, it really belongs either as a comment or on the Talk: page, not integrated within the article text.
— Matt Crypto 11:03, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)It's been quite a while since we saw such an aggressive little edit summary but it looks as though the vacation we've been granted is over. We hope this is not the start of a vindictive little control campaign. With 719,384 articles to work on, there must be something to do that's not confrontational. Cluttering articles with "info" boxes that contain no fresh information seems to lack a certain desirable freshness and originality. -- Wetman 00:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
( User:Ta bu shi da yu has contacted nine like-minded Wikipedians to throw their weight around at this Talkpage on this subject. See that User's recent contributions for an idea of what to expect. -- Wetman 03:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC))
TBSDY suggested that I weigh in on the infobox debate, so here I am. I've looked at both no-infobox and infobox versions of the article. I'm slightly pro-infobox simply on the grounds that it presents birth and death locations which are otherwise buried in the text. IMO, this outweighs the disadvantage of the slightly smaller portrait - if someone wants to see it in all its glory, they can just click it anyway. -- Jacj 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Neto, I think your picking up the infobox edit war where Ta bu shi da yu left off was the direct cause of the article getting protected. Your only input on the subject so far has been the single word "infobox" in the edit summary. IMO both Ta bu and you reverted against consensus. If "infobox" is all you have to say about it, I guess the article will stay protected for a good long time. :-( Bishonen | talk 01:08, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I have unprotected this page. No discussion has happened at all in the 10 days it has been protected. Please do not start the edit war again, or I'll be back. :( -- Phroziac ( talk) 14:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm unprotecting again for the same reason as before: no discussion. If there is a resumption of the edit war I will find another way to stop it. I don't think either of the warring parties would like that. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
If this edit war starts again and is missed by User talk:Phroziac, I'll protect the page. Please try to work out a consensus, preferrably not by polling. Meanwhile, just leave things as they are. Filiocht | The kettle's on 13:45, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Netoholic is a disgrace. He is constantly warring with other editors. Why has he not been banned yet? Jooler 22:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Would you fine people please stop edit warring over this? For want of a better expression, it's lame. It's only a box, for goodness sake! There are more important things... I know it's not the politically-correct thing, but even a poll would be better than having this page protected every other day. — Matt Crypto 23:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for keeping the infobox. Although it seems the regular editors of the article disagree.... perhaps we could come to a comprimise somehow? Ryan Norton T | @ | C 23:27, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The box is stupid, cartoonish, and destructive, but the point here is that no one has the right to keep going to 3RR to insert it. Enumerate the advantages of redundancy here, and exclude "consistency," please, because you'll first need to make all subjects of biography consistent before you can make their lives consistent so that you can consistently jam in a box that half the legitimate voters on TFD want actually deleted, not merely unused. Otherwise, one person inserting it over and over and over and over and over and, when unblocked, over again, while five to six people keep removing it is disruption of Wikipedia. Let Netoholic go find one of those lovely 1911 text dumps and then go find a photo, extract the information, and insert this box-of-destiny, but don't take an article that has already been approved as already exhibiting the best of Wikipedia and try to mangle it to make his childish and churlish point. Geogre 15:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
As an "outsider" to the whole edit-war over the infobox on this particular page, I'll put in my own two cents... I generally like the concept of infoboxes as a way of getting some consistency in the articles of a particular type. I created the infobox for top-level domains, for instance, and I was one of the main people putting infoboxes on all the articles on popes (though I didn't actually create that particular infobox). I've also put the infobox for games on several game articles. Thus, I'll speak out in favor of adding the biography infobox here, though I have no intention of getting into an edit war by actually doing it if it's against the view of many others. *Dan T.* 17:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is a truly wonderful narrative of the man's life, but is there any way that someone could have in-line citations put in. I wasn't involved in the artcicle at all, but I know that today FACs need to have inline references, or they don't make the cut. I count to in line references and one note in this article. Thoughts?-- dave-- 20:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank for the note, Bishonen. Glad to see that the issue has been tackled before...and so recently. I had not noticed the parenthetical documentation in my brief reading of the text. Have a great day. Blessings.-- dave-- 01:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This article clearly needs inline cites, so why was it allowed for the Main Page? What a joke. LuciferMorgan 13:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow contributors
MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.
There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:
Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 08:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
This sentence from the introductory paragraph seems inappropriately biased and laudatory for an encyclopedia article: "His architectural work was as bold and daring as his early political activism and marriage-themed plays, and jarred conservative opinions on the subject." This implies that Vanbrugh's views were in line with what would now be considered "liberal" attitudes toward women and gender relations, which is at the very least debatable, given some of the content of his plays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.176.186 ( talk) 21:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Just noticed the guide to pronouncing his name and it seems, well, a little odd. Surely it should be Van-bra, with a short a (i.e., not Van-brahhh), rather than Van-brew?
[1] = Inappropriate use of the ROLLBACK tool, by user GiacomoReturned. Please discuss on the talk page, and do not misuse the rollback tool. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The lede/intro of this article is a bit too short. It fails WP:LEAD. With respect to both the size and scope of the rest of the article, it does not adequately summarize the entire articles contents and fails to function as a standalone overview. The lede should be expanded upon. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The tone of this article infuses the POV of the article-writer and/or individual Wikipedians, without attributing this to secondary sources. One among multiple possible examples is:
This inappropriate style of tone should be removed. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Page numbers for cites where the author's name is cited are missing in multiple key places. In order more fully satisfy WP:V, page numbers should be provided for all cites. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Why were these reverted? And the edit summary was also insulting, why was this done? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
[3] -- Does this cite verify the specific dates of birth and death for this individual? -- Cirt ( talk) 23:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
[5] - I tagged some spots where citations and pages numbers for cites are needed. These were removed with no explanation. Perhaps we could discuss here how to further improve this page. -- Cirt ( talk) 22:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
If somebody makes an edit and you don't agree with it, take it to the talk. And take it to the talk before you revert them for the third time. And don't revert them whilst you're discussing the disagreement. And stop reverting over silly things. Play ball, or find yourself blocked. Our readers don't want you using our articles to play fisticuffs; that's what the talk page is for. Though, fwiw, this is laughable—
My talk page is always open if you lot are having problems. AGK 02:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
@AGK, other articles I've been involved in, such as iPad are actually sourced with inline citations that carefully, and Sex Pistols which was on the front page yesterday has 233 inline citations, which you can only get to by citing things quite carefully. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 06:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Sex Pistols was on the front page yesterday, I think that is likely to make it a good example of a high quality FA... -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 17:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
These should be re-linked somewhere else in the article, as they are now not linked to at all. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Its getting rather long, so anyone object? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Given that these are facts they should probably all be sourced anyone object to the addition of a {{ref-improve-section}} tag? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Quite possibly :), but I wanted to make my position clear and not have an extended discussion on the topic. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I was going through the article to check for superfluous citation needed's and I noticed that the last three paragraphs of this section aren't particularly well written. Can they be improved? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 12:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
I've removed them from the article as they need lots of sources and aren't well written. For posterity they are below: -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
He also had the unusual skill, for an architect, of delivering the goods that his clients required. citation needed His reputation has suffered because of his famed disagreements with the Duchess of Marlborough, yet, one must remember his original client was the British Nation, not the Duchess and the nation wanted a monument and celebration of victory, and that is what Vanbrugh gave the nation.
His influence on successive architects is incalculable. citation needed Nicholas Hawksmoor, Vanbrugh's friend and collaborator on so many projects continued to design many London churches for ten years after Vanbrugh's death. Vanbrugh's pupil and cousin the architect Edward Lovett Pearce rose to become one of Ireland's greatest architects. His influence in Yorkshire can also be seen in the work of the amateur architect William Wakefield who designed several buildings in the county that show Vanbrugh's influence.
Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain, citation needed by inns, street names, a university college ( York) and schools named in his honour, but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the ever present influence of his architecture. citation needed
"remembered throughout Britain":
Probably a lot more; probably OR, but hope it helps anyway. -- RexxS ( talk) 20:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
^^ Undoubtably 'both' :p. But seriously even given the noise and taking it with a pinch of salt I'd expect him to make the top 100 for such a strong claim of popularity to be plausible without a reliable source to back it up. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain,[citation needed] by inns, street names, a university college (York) and schools named in his honour, -- well of course he's not remembered by the kind of birdbrain who'd canonize Mrs Windsor or seek Deep Meaning in "Karma Chameleon". Suggestion: remove the comma: Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain by at least one inn,( The Vanbrugh, Greenwich) street names,[list] a university college ( Vanbrugh college, York University) and schools[citation needed] named in his honour,. Nuff said? -- Hoary ( talk) 22:56, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh I wouldn't call it unilateral. It simply seems nobody is particularly bothered if this article remains with a bauble on the top of it if the cost is such appaling mutilation. I mean, good grief - should we be citing a pub called the "Vanbrugh" to have to prove the statement. Ludicrous. -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 21:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
From the list of works its not particularly extensive, most of them have been demolished or completely rebuilt. The only surviving ones are the Orangery at Kensington Palace, the Greenwich Hospital, the state rooms at Hampton court and the Ordnance Board Building, Woolwich - given the size of London that isn't actually that many. If you want to claim he influenced other people who did build lots of other buildings in London that's fine if it is backed up with a reliable source. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:37, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I've protected this for a brief period due to the edit warring. Discuss or go for a walk, folks. Risker ( talk) 21:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Isn't this rather long as its not hugely important to the article? Wouldn't it be better if it was summarised as a paragraph? -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 13:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
The main thing I've done is add sources, I don't see why anyone would object to that... -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Now back on topic, it still isn't clear why 4 paragraphs are needed on another playwrights play and why this couldn't be condensed per WP:SUMMARY with the rest of the content in that article. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Information brought to you by Bishonen.
The FAR/FARC of John Vanbrugh has been closed by SandyGeorgia because of abuse, see Wikipedia:Featured article review/John Vanbrugh/archive1. Specifically, the citation style has been changed without consensus; the article has not been improved during the FAR, but rather damaged; and my own request for more time because of health issues, which was endorsed by delegate Dana boomer, has been ignored. Here is the wording of SandyGeorgia's close:
Bishonen | talk 21:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC).
She's not on the list... The featured article director, Raul654, or his delegates YellowMonkey and Dana boomer -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Y'all are confused; I don't close FARs, but I can enter a declaration. End of story (I hope). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
This was indeed a pleasing article in late April compared with the state that it's in now.
There's a lot of talk in the mercifully suspended FAR about an unwonted change in citation style. I wonder what really happened. Here (from early May) was my own first, very minor contribution to this article. I thereby increased the number of notes from 12 to 14. I did so because sourcing (via one method or another) was clearly warranted, because notes were already used (as they had been even before this FAR started), and because notes could be used to add this information more neatly than could any alternative I could think of.
The main impact I've had on this article is in the transformation from this entirely unsourced list of architectural works to this sourced one. This change accounts for one third or more of the number of footnotes added since April; so if footnotes per se irritate you, direct your barbs at me. Indeed, most of the additional sourcing here seems otiose: if an item is bluelinked to an article that clearly and sourcedly says that the work is in whole or in part by Vanbrugh, this is all we need -- it's only the redlinks that should need to be sourced. On the other hand footnotes that are hardly needed here also seem harmless: as this is anyway a mere list, footnotes can hardly be said to impair its readability.
I wonder where the article should go from here, and, more locally, what should be done about the sourcing of the list of architectural works -- whether the footnotes for works with articles should be retained, converted, or deleted. -- Hoary ( talk) 21:57, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough on the revert for now. The only other thing I've removed from the article is the final 3 paragraphs of the legacy section mentioned in the section above (of which one has been readded). Other than that my only non-sourcing changes have been adding a couple of sentences on the Duchess and Nicolas Hawksmoor and that Blenhiem is now a world heritage site (though the latter could do with some grammar improvements). -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
What is the family connection referred to in the portion of the article headed Early life and background?
"The picture of a well-connected youth is reinforced by the fact that Vanbrugh in January 1686 took up an officer's commission in his distant relative the Earl of Huntingdon's foot regiment"
I can find no blood or marriage link between them. Eddaido ( talk) 12:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this edit [6] When writing this page, these references were used. When people were bleeting that facts were not referenced, all they had to do was read the listed references. Funny old world isn't it? Giacomo 07:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:John Vanbrugh/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
needs inline citations -- plange 21:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 21:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 15:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
It has a long list of pics down the left, at least as I view it (with an unmodified "skin", under Epiphany).
I read
=== Playwright === {| class="floatright" |- | [[File:Colley Cibber.jpg|thumb|u
blah blah. Is the syntax correct here? This collection isn't being floated. ("Floatright" is explained here.) -- Hoary ( talk) 10:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
As quote should be explicitly sourced does anyone have a source for Voltaire's quote on Blenheim Palace: "a great mass of stone with neither charm nor taste". I had a quick Google and couldn't find anything (other than this page and obvious ripoffs) either on the main search or on Google Books/Scholar. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Is it just me or does the gallery need a trim? We can't post photos of all Vanbrugh's works - it'd take up too much room. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 18:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)