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Specifically with respect to the nature of edits such as this one by User:Canada Jack, we should be careful not to attempt to nullify the HSCA's findings here. Its conclusion, "on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" certainly has many detractors, but notwithstanding, as no other official process has ever risen to overturn it, there really is no basis for us to do so either (whether by drawing on certain interpretations of its validity by some other party or otherwise comparing it to any other (independent) federal investigation). Earl of Arundel ( talk) 06:42, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
The onus is on you, Earl of Arundel, to cite something which says the conclusion of conspiracy was only "partially" driven by the acoustic evidence. So far, you've failed to do so. It wasn't in the conclusions you posted to the NO OR page - indeed, as I said above, the only evidence cited in that conclusion... was the acoustic evidence, implying exactly what I claimed! Canada Jack ( talk) 20:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Rather than continue discussion of this issue on
CanadaJack's talk page, I'm just reposting the most current comments from there to here:
The answer was in front of our face all this time on the article of House Select Committee on Assassinations itself, maybe it was even staring at us and maybe it was having fits cuz of the laughter:
Although the HSCA had prepared a draft report confirming the Warren Commission's single shooter theory and finding no evidence of conspiracy, at the eleventh hour, the committee was swayed by a since-disputed acoustic analysis of a dictabelt police channel recording. [1]: 495 This acoustic analysis of the dictabelt recording by the firm Bolt, Beranek and Newman Inc. concluded that four shots were fired at the president, thus causing the HSCA to reverse its earlier position and report "that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy." [1]: 9 In terms of scientific evidence, the HSCA acknowledged that the existence of a second shooter was only supported by this acoustic analysis. [1]: 84
—usernamekiran
(talk)
20:28, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Kiran, everyone is entitled to their interpretation of the facts. What the facts constitute is guided by consensus. Closing the discussion to make preeminent one participant's view of the facts, seems problematic. Doubly so when done by that same participant. I see nothing wrong with having this discussion open for other editors to further comment on. Why should it be frozen for one view to be represented above all others simply because its proponent deems it the factual one? It doesn't work like that on Wikipedia. We have mechanisms in place to close discussions and this seems far from being a suitable candidate. Again, except for RMs and RfCs, regular discussions are not closed anywhere except perhaps AN/I, XfD, etc. Not unless the discussion becomes so highly toxic, it's better closed. El_C 05:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Material cited to conspiracy believer Michael Parenti's website has been added multiple times. [2] [3] The material from that website states:
First, Michael Parenti is not a reliable source for information on the assassination of JFK. This particular section is Parenti's attempt to support the "state within a state" conspiracy. Second, the material is self-published. Third, the only hits I can find for a sociologist named "David Simone" are linked to Parenti's writings. - Location ( talk) 22:28, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Current media sensationalism about the new documents must be backed by documents shown on the National Archives website. [4] JoetheMoe25 ( talk) 15:39, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
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I've just corrected an error in the text, see the reference I give.
The text as it was is a very common mistake made by people who criticise Donahue's work without actually reading it! And following the publication of JFK: The Smoking Gun, we can expect more and more of it. McLaren's work is worth a read too, but it is nowhere near as thorough as Donahue's. But many reviewers assume that, having read McLaren, they don't need to read the work on which it is based but can pretend they have. Bad mistake. See here for just one example. Andrewa ( talk) 02:02, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Article talk pages are not the place to discuss our own personal views on whether or not this or any other theory is impossible. [5]
It can be difficult to draw the line. I have felt it appropriate to disclose my view, and still think that was appropriate. But I've been trying very hard not to promote this view here. In the article we can and should cite reliable sources that discuss the merits of the various theories. But that is all. Andrewa ( talk) 18:58, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
As indicated above, I think this edit is uncalled for. It removes material that is relevant and interesting and which Lattimer, Donahue and Menninger all regarded as important, and the reason for its removal seems to be purely the theories of Canada Jack as to what actually happened. It would, in my opinion, improve Wikipedia to reinstate it.
But it would achieve nothing for me to revert it. My views are clear I think, as are theirs, and I think we should both now leave it to others to follow up in due course. Andrewa ( talk) 13:36, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I recently added a quote by RFK, but it was falsely called vandalism by BrandonTR. I Think it should be added. It's from a great source, Bobby Kennedy himself. Here it is:
...divine retribution. He said that. Then he went on and said that, when he was growing up, somebody he knew - who had misbehaved - was on a sled or something, ran into a tree, hit his head, and became cross-eyed. He said that was God's retribution for people who were bad. So you should be careful of cross-eyed people because God put his mark on them. And this might very well be God's retribution to President Kennedy... (Source: Cite book|title=Robert Kennedy In His Own Words: The Unpublished Recollections of the Kennedy Years|last=Kennedy|first=Robert|publisher=Bantam|year=1989|isbn=978-0553346619|location=United States|pages=105)
I know I could have added more around this quote to make it flow better and I will try to do that and I hope others will to. I'm fine with someone deleting it as well, if they have a constructive reason and a bit of helpful criticism, but just shouting "vandalism" doesn't help. HAL 333 02:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd agree it's not vandalism, instead it's a good-faith edit. Problem is, while it's a lovely quote, how does this fit into a page on conspiracies to kill JFK? Unless there's a "God did it" conspiracy! Canada Jack ( talk) 17:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The text says the following:Brugioni recalls seeing a "white cloud" of brain matter, three or four feet above Kennedy's head, and says that this "spray" lasted for more than one frame of the film. The version of the Zapruder film available to the public depicts the fatal head shot on only one frame of the film, frame 313.
Perhaps it's just the way it is written. However, the text seems to imply that the 'white cloud' did not last for more than one frame of the film. What is meant by "depicts the fatal head shot on only one frame of the film"? Obviously, the impact itself is only on frame 313. But the physical reaction of Kennedy's head matter does indeed carry on until at least Z-316, if not 317. The quality of the film doesn't make it clear by 317, and by 318 Zapruder had introduced camera shake (probably in reaction to the sound of the shot). But it's certainly clear that there is a plume of tissue and blood above Kennedy's head up to and including Z-316, and the projectiles of presumably parts of his skull or brain are clearly visible in both 313 and 314 (and possibly also 315).
It's not actually easy to talk about this, for me. And I've had to watch the bloody scene for the six hundreth time now! Anyway, I think the second sentence may need reworded for clarity.
Also, what is meant by "the Zapruder film available to the public"? Surely there was only one Zapruder, and one Zapruder film of the event? There may have been multiple prints made (and I'm not sure how many of these are publically available), but I think this needs clarification also. As in, "The Zapruder film available to the public..." --
82.21.97.70 (
talk)
16:39, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi, the 4th paragraph of the "Alleged inconsistencies" section has a long list of various investigation inconsistencies in a sentence that is kind of hard to read - unwieldy even. It's 154 words long and the list grammar/formatting is borderline questionable. I think this information would be better conveyed in a breakout bullet point form. If not that, maybe it would be better to parse it out into multiple sentences.
I'm new to wiki editing, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this. Feel free to let me know if this isn't the right approach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dylanesmo ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Not seeing/hearing anyone in the staircase she was on the fourth floor 2600:1700:4000:62E0:6903:9276:56E:9576 ( talk) 21:31, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The "Prayer Man" theory, to begin with, is bogus as far as its claim that it shows Lee Harvey Oswald in the shadows on the front steps of the Depository during the assassination, however, as far as Wikipedia rules, the entry itself is not credible and is based on false claims in almost every sentence of the entry...First off the claim that Prayer Man is a man is wrong and has been proven to be a female...In 2016 digital photo expert Chris Davidson managed to enhance the NBC newsreel "Wiegman Film" in which Prayer Man is seen and brought out the face of a woman on Prayer Man...Also - the hands in a praying position that is the source of Prayer Man's moniker is actually that woman holding her purse up in front of her...Photo analysis showed that Prayer Man is wearing a uniform-colored dress from shoulder to knee and not showing the color breaks between Oswald's shirt, belt, and pants...This once again confirms that Prayer Man is a woman...Whoever wrote the article entered the false claim that Marina Oswald confirmed that Prayer Man was Lee...This is not true...The Prayer Man supporter who sent Marina Stan Dane's Prayer Man book, Ed LeDoux, recorded Marina in a phone call and Marina told him she hadn't read the book LeDoux mailed her...From his conversation with Marina in that recorded phone call it was clear that Marina thought she was being asked about the original mistaking of Billy Lovelady for Oswald in Ike Altgens' 1963 photo of the Depository front steps...The claim in the presently-existing Prayer Man entry that Marina confirmed Oswald was Prayer Man is provably false and is based on deliberate misrepresentation that is typical of how the Prayer Man group supports its bogus claim...The next flagrant untruth the editor makes is the claim that the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter never happened and was fabricated by manager Truly and Officer Baker...Whoever wrote this entry omitted the fact that there were several witnesses to Oswald being in that 2nd floor lunch room, the latest being Buell Frazier who said a partly-eaten cheese sandwich and apple was seen on that table after the assassination in the exact spot Oswald was seen eating lunch...The reason the Prayer Man believers need to get rid of the 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter is because they know it makes Oswald being out on the front steps unlikely...Next, the editor ignores that Baker's encounter could not have happened on the 4th floor because Mrs Garner said she was there watching the steps and saw Baker & Truly emerge...It is just outright dishonest for the editor to then continue that Truly saw Oswald in a storage closet on the 1st floor while not informing the reader that this was at least ten minutes after the assassination after Truly had searched the upstairs and returned to the ground floor...He does the same thing with Ochus Campbell, who also made clear that he did not see Oswald hiding in the utility closet under the front stairs until after he had gone to the Grassy Knoll and returned back to the Lobby...The editor is stretching context and trying to make it look like those witnesses saw Oswald right after Prayer Man was seen not too far away in the Depository front entranceway...Once again, when Fritz indicated Truly saw Oswald "somewhere near the back stairway" he was describing the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter and therefore confirming its real-ness...The editor is doing an outright intentional mis-informing of the reader because Campbell was quite clear the "storage room" he saw Oswald in was the utility closet under the front stairway and not the rear store room the editor is dishonestly inferring...The editor continues his deliberate prevarication by claiming FBI agent Hosty's notes of the 3pm interrogation of Oswald on the day of the assassination indicated Oswald was out on the front steps watching the presidential parade...There were 3 witnesses taking notes during Oswald's interrogation by Captain Fritz...They were Fritz, and FBI agents Hosty & Bookhout...When their notes were compared all 3 sets of notes started at the Lunch Room Encounter 90 seconds after the shots, then went down to the 1st floor to eat lunch, and then after lunch was eaten went out to the front steps to watch the presidential parade...If we give Oswald 5 minutes to eat lunch (according to these notes), then the earliest Oswald could show up on the front steps to watch the parade would be 6 1/2 minutes after the shots and not during the assassination as the editor suggests...The last and final whopper is the editor's reference to Postal Inspector Harry Holmes' statement...Holmes was present during Oswald's interrogation on Sunday two days after the assassination...The editor has failed to accurately relate what Holmes actually said...Holmes related that Oswald said he had "come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about"...What Oswald was saying there is he came down from the 2nd floor lunch room where Officer Baker had confronted him and went to the 1st floor Lobby where he was stopped by a cop...The editor is trying to give the false impression that Oswald went from the Prayer Man position on the front steps in to the Lobby where he ran in to Baker & Truly on their way in to the Depository and that Baker and Truly then lied and shifted this encounter to the 2nd floor lunch room, however any accurate interpretation of what Holmes really said makes it clear Oswald had described a 2nd stopping by a cop that occurred in the Lobby after Oswald had come down from the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter with Baker, and this was many minutes after the shots...So the reason for this "Talk" entry is to protest that even though the Prayer Man theory may be a legitimate entry as an example of conspiracy theories as far as the credibility of the internal workings of the entry itself it is quite deceptive and uses deliberate mis-representation of evidence as its means...This is typical of Sean Murphy's Prayer Man theory and is a good example of how it was formulated...Murphy himself completely disappeared in 2013 and has never returned to answer for any of this...Prayer Man has been proven to be Depository secretary Sarah Stanton...See the book 'Honest Answers About The Murder Of President John F Kennedy' (Palamara 2021)...
To my mind, conspiracy theories which include Oswald as at least one shooter seem at least more tenable than those who exclude him as being framed such as Garrison’s. Does any conspiracy theory with Oswald being framed address to me what would seem a couple of obvious questions that I haven’t heard addressed? If so, can they be included in the article? Firstly, what was the fallback plan if by plain dumb luck Oswald had been absent from work that day due to illness or any other reason? Would the assassination have been called off? Secondly, and even more likely, I think, what if after the fact Oswald would have had an ironclad alibi such as eating lunch with several coworkers at the time of the shooting? (Indeed, he claimed he was doing exactly that with two coworkers, both of whom denied it.)
I’m not here to debate the issue, just simply to ask what I did above. If such contingencies had been considered by the conspirators according to those who position an innocent Oswald as the fall guy, what exactly do they say the plan was? Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 20:58, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Okay no debate, I will simply tell you that your assunptions are wrong. Not all interrogation reports state that Oswald said he ate lunch with two other workers. The joint Hosty-Bookhout report states that he simply saw the two re-enter the building. The two workers said they entered through a rear loading dock. The window of the domino room gave a perfect view of this.
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."
You could not "walk through" the domino room. It only had one entrance and in any case, there was no purpose in walking through it. Oswald saw them "walk through" from the dock entrance to the elevator.
Bookhout then wrote a solo report changing this to Oswald saying he ate with these two. As did Fritz. None of the reports were typed while Oswald was still alive. Jarman was asked about having lunch with Oswald, and truthfully denied it - thus effectively beating the falsified alibi.
As for Oswald having an "ironclad alibi" - you answer your own question. They controlled the narrative, the evidence, the witnesses - and after Oswald was murdered, they could claim anything. His ironclad alibi was changed as above so it could be beaten and Hosty falsly claimed he destroyed his interrogation notes (which further state that Oswald said he went out to watch the parade). Luckily these notes did survive and there is evidence that could validate (or refute) that part of the alibi - if it can be prised out of the hands of NBC.
As for your "what if"... there were no shortage of alternative patsies. Frazier was arrested as an accomplice and he owned an Enfield - with an Enfiend being one of the makes of rifles reportedly found on the 6th floor. And another worker, Joe Molina, had his home ransacked by police looking to tie him in since he was on their so-called subversive list.
Hope this helps. 111.220.48.157 ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)gpfloor 111.220.48.157 ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Someone has plonked down what purports to be the rationale for the Warren Commission - trouble is, that rationale seems to be pulled straight from a conspiracy theory - about a second Oswald in Mexico City. So the section needs to be substantially rewritten - or removed.
With the information that someone had been impersonating Oswald, President Johnson expressed concern that the public might come to believe that Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev and/or Cuban leader Fidel Castro was implicated in the assassination — a situation that Johnson said might lead to "... a war that [could] kill 40 million Americans in an hour". Johnson relayed his concern to both Chief Justice Earl Warren and Senator Richard Russell, telling them that they could "serve America" by joining the commission Johnson had established to investigate the assassination
It appears that a lot of this is taken whole cloth from a Frontline article by John Newman, but nowhere does it say that these are the conclusions of the author. This is the OPINION of the author who wrote the article, it is not a FACT. While there are sources which will back up the part about Johnson's fears of the Soviets and /or Cubans being blamed, and a risk of a nuclear war to follow, to suggest this was also driven by the "truth" of an Oswald impersonator is merely the opinion of an author, let alone that there was in fact an imposter, a highly disputed claim.
Therefore this entire "background" section needs to be substantially rewritten or removed. Beyond the implied rationale for Johnson creating the WC, most of the documents I see linked to here were released with the HSCA's Lopez Report back around 1996, part of the release of previously top secret documents surrounding the assassination. And that report - written by staff members hunting a conspiracy - said the evidence was not sufficient to conclude there was an Oswald imposter. That release was eagerly anticipated by conspiracy theorists at the time as it was purported to be a smoking gun that revealed the CIA etc knew there was a second Oswald. In fact, it revealed that the evidence showed that it was most likely indeed Oswald who visited the embassies in question, not an imposter, though the latter possibility could not be ruled out. And this was by staff who had direct access to many of the people in question.
Yet the section basically treats the imposter theory as fact. As with any of the other conspiracy theories on the page, claims should be couched along the line of, "authors claim..." or "one theory suggests..." In terms of this, the very existence of an imposter itself isn't clear as to WHY there'd be an imposter - an entire page could be spent on what an imposter might mean in terms of the assassination, indeed, a real imposter might have nothing at all to do with the assassination, but something to do with the KGB throwing the CIA off certain scents, for example. And any cover-up of any knowledge of this more to do with institutional "cover your ass" when your surveillance subject kills the president, than with some nefarious plot said agency was involved with. Just sayin. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
From the audio recording of Johnson's telephone conversation with Senator Richard Russell:
LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Well you want me to tell you the truth? You know what happened? Bobby and them went up to see him today and he turned them down cold and said "no." Two hours later I called him and ordered him down here and he didn't want to come. I insisted he come, he came down here and told me no twice and I just pulled out what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City and I say now, 'I don't want Mr. Khrushchev to be told tomorrow and be testifying before a camera that he killed this fellow and that Castro killed him and all I want you to do is look at the facts and bring in other facts you want in here, and determined who killed the President and I think you'd put on your uniform of World War I, fat as you are, and do anything you could to save one American life. And I'm surprised that you the Chief Justice of the United States would turn me down.' And he started crying and said, well I won't turn you down. I'll just do whatever you say, but he turned the Attorney General down.
LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Dick, it has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour and you would put on your uniform in a minute. Now the reason I've asked Warren is because he is the Chief Justice of this country and we've got to have the highest judicial people we can have. The reason I ask you is because you have that same kind of temperament and you can do anything for your country and don't go giving me that kind of stuff about you can't serve with anybody--you can do anything. -- BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:59, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I removed this sentence from the lead because it gives credence to debunked conspiracy theories about JFK's murder: "In 1998, the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) unearthed inconsistencies in the prior investigations, and the Board's chief analyst for military records contended that the brain photographs in the Kennedy records were probably not of Kennedy's brain". Yodabyte ( talk) 02:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I restored the sentence from the lead because no "debunking" evidence has been provided. 24.234.77.218 ( talk) 11:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Sources
|
---|
|
Consortiumnews is considered “generally unreliable” for statements of fact, see WP:RSP and the many associated WP:RSN discussions about this website.
Aguilar is also an ophthalmologist. He has no expertise in gunshot wounds, autopsies, or forensic interviewing. So asserting him as an expert falls afoul of WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 17:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
User Shibbolethink removed my edits and claimed that Posner's 1993 book "Case Closed" is unreliable. I find this claim incredible, as it is widely acknowledged that this book, along with Bugliosi's book, is the definite account of the Kennedy assassination. Posner's book is used multiple times as a source in this article. Should we remove all references to this book? Virtuus ( talk) 18:12, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
should we talk about the mob connection conspiracy theory?" but instead: "
should we talk about it to this depth?" The operative question, then, is: Do the breadth of many different secondary sources discuss it to this depth? — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
The current state of the article uses this website quite a bit (e.g. [11] [12] are both cited several times). Do we have any reason to believe this is a reliable source as per WP:RS? Meaning: secondary, independent, with an editorial board, published editorial policy, and wide readership in mainstream circles? Because the more I examine this, the more it seems like a personal website pushing conspiracies. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 03:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
@ BrandonTRA I removed the material in question because it is based solely on WP:PRIMARY sources, and therefore has no demonstration of being WP:DUE.
Per DUE, "avoiding undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects....Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements.... Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute
."
We have no demonstration that this material is DUE, as we do not have it represented in secondary independent reliable sources as characterized in WP:RS. A secondary independent source means completely separated from the subject matter, so these transcripts of the commission proceedings etc. do not count. Those are WP:PRIMARY sources and are not part of determining whether material is WP:DUE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 18:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
@
BrandonTRA: The reference to fox10news is actually an article by local affiliate WASA. per the [q] footnote on the
WP:RSP entry: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG.
" But, regardless, the applicable
WP:RSP entry would actually be Fox News (news excluding politics and science) as this is a topic of history. And that entry reads: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science
". I'm no fan of Fox News, but I am a fan of correctly applied Wikipedia policy. —
Shibbolethink (
♔
♕)
19:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
"There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science
". Indeed, Fox News in not reliable on politics and science, but it's very reliable on entertainment ... lol
BrandonTRA (
talk)
20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is generally reliable on ALL topics other than politics. In the subject of politics, it reliably presents a conservative view of the nature and significance of current events, thereby suffering the vile calumny of the left (or: every other mainstream media source) of being "unreliable." In that context, "unreliable" means "they don't parrot the liberal cant." 98.183.25.236 ( talk) 04:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG." [13] — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 03:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is NOT an “unreliable” news channel. It reliably, as I’ve stated before, presents a conservative interpretation of current events. It is the only mainstream news channel which does not parrot the liberal cant. The left cannot tolerate this. Liberal commentators and their toadies (eg, commenters on this page) therefore assault Fox News by vile calumnies imputing the integrity of their journalism. The Left simply tolerates no dissent, being at heart a totalitarian, autocratic and oppressive mentality. 98.183.25.236 ( talk) 17:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
There is a group of organized persons out of the "ReOpenKennedyCase" website who are entering seriously mis-referenced material in Kennedy Assassination Wikipedia articles in order to spin content in favor of their claim that Oswald was seen as "Prayer Man" on the front steps of the Depository during the assassination...They did it in this article in the "Role Of Oswald" section in the following quote: " When asked to account for himself at the time of the assassination, Oswald claimed that he “went outside to watch P. Parade” (referring to the presidential motorcade), and was “out with [William Shelley, a foreman at the depository] in front”,[230] and that he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.[231] Initially, Texas School Book Depository superintendent Roy Truly and Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting. Some researchers, including Stan Dane, theorize that a man who was filmed standing on the Depository front steps during the assassination, referred to as "prayer man", is Oswald. "... The entry's author footnoted the quotes from Mary Ferrell and the Warren Commission Volumes in order to hide their true "ReOpenKennedyCase" source...The last footnote from Stan Dane's "Prayer Man" book is the true source and also the source of the entry author's bias...Because of its esoteric nature in Kennedy research the public who reads this entry will not immediately detect its faux scholarship and intent...The references to "out with Bill Shelley in front" and "went outside to watch the Presidential Parade" have already been proven to be 5 minutes after the assassination according to other information included in those same references but omitted by the entry's author...The quote [he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.] is a straight bastardization of Harry Holmes describing a second stopping of Oswald at the front door 5 minutes after the shots after he had come down from being stopped by Officer Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...The entry is dishonestly trying to infer this quote by Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was saying Oswald was Prayer Man on the front steps...Its writer omits Holmes saying "Oswald had come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about" right before the quoted part...Typical of the Prayer Man group the following quote is just outright false and intentionally so: "Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting"...If you check Campbell's real statement he clearly said that he went to the Grassy Knoll from the front steps after the shooting and minutes later when he returned to the Lobby he saw Oswald hiding in the Storage Room (Source: Occhus Campbell Warren Commission Statement)...The entry writer is being intentionally inaccurate in both his writing and sources and is trying to spin the evidence in the direction of Prayer Man by means of distorted quotes, omissions, and false references... 2601:6C3:4000:C5C0:55D3:2BB3:1672:2625 ( talk) 18:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page: "In the wake of the end of the Cold War and the passage of the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act, the U.S. Government has declassified an enormous number of formerly-secret documents. Among the most stunning are those pertaining to the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy and its subsequent investigations. The new records contain stark indications of conspiracy, and a great wealth of material concerning the hows and whys of the ensuing coverup.
"
This website is not a news organization or a scholarly journal. It does not have an editorial board. It does not have any editorial policy. It is comprised of various essays and thoughts of conspiracy theorists.
The pertinent wikipedia policy is WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 22:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Now you say that the pertinent Wiki policy is WP:FRINGE In other words, you've changed your argument mid-stream from your previous "unreliable" justification to your new "fringe" justification. Of course, your new justification is without merit as well, since you have provided no support that History Matters meets Wiki's criteria for being fringe. You're just wasting everyone's time with this. Tomorrow, when I have the chance, I will simply supply another source for the verbatim Garrison trial testimony that was sourced to History Matters. Hope you like wasting our time... BrandonTRA ( talk) 23:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Just because someone or some site alleges a conspiracy in the case of the JFK assassination does make them FRINGE, nor does it meet Wiki's criteria of FRINGE. Many of those who have held power in the U.S. have alleged a JFK conspiracy, including the government body, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which alleged a Mafia conspiracy, as well as President Lyndon Johnson who alleged a JFK conspiracy involving Khrushchev and/or Castro. It is perfectly OK and within Wiki guidelines to cite sources alleging conspiracy. BrandonTRA ( talk) 00:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
The JFK Assassination Archive disk and other AARC electronic document products are developed by History Matters. Visit our website: www.history-matters.com for more information and to order"This would mean the citation was not actually replaced, just pointed towards a different website run by the same group of people who are, as described above, likely not a reliable source. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 05:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
FWIW: I generally agree with Shibbolethink on the reliability of History Matters. When used properly, I do not have a strong objection to using the primary source material that is not published on the National Archives website; however, I do think President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection on the National Archives website should be the first place to go for primary source material. Unfortunately, a lot of the primary source material is often used to make a point not supported by reliable secondary sources. That material should be stripped from the article. - Location ( talk) 16:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent conspiracy sources are permitted to be used in this article. I had originally thought that Wikipedia guidelines allowed fringe material to be discussed in an article only to the extent that it was discussed in reliable secondary sources (see WP:FRIND). Does the fact that we are essentially defining this article as fringe content mean we can ignore that? This article states that there have been 1,000 to 2,000 books written about the assassination with 95% of those being pro-conspiracy. If that means we have 950 to 1,900 pro-conspiracy books, can anyone dump anything from those books into this article as they see fit? Who decides which conspiracy authors or theories are notable for inclusion? - Location ( talk) 16:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The long list of Witness Deaths (about 3 pages of text) creates the impression of overwhelming evidence for the theory they evidence of a conspiracy. The argument that they are not improbable statistically is actually the consensus of reliable sources. It should be in a paragraph at the top of the section, just after (or before) a paragraph summarizing the theory witness deaths are evidence of a conspiracy. Ttulinsky ( talk) 04:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
Apparently the CTs think this means that the Bush didn't want to admit he was in Dallas/Dealey Plaza. (Bush did pen a letter in 1979 stating that he was in Tyler, Texas - see Jodie Elliott Hansen's book - so this is consistent with CTs cherry-picking their info.) There is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 20:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is cited to various primary sources, conspiracy sources, a newspaper obituary, and Bugliosi:
The discussion of de Mohrenschildt in the obituary and Bugliosi refer to his connections to Oswald and does not mention a conspiracy involving GHWB. We have some innuendo, but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 22:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is also cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
This is one of those factoids that is debated among "researchers", but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this. I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 19:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. I am sure Torbitt (aka David Copeland) is famous within the wall-garden of conspiracy believers, but this blurb (which in essence states that a conspiracy believer read a book by another conspiracy believer) is the only mention I could find of him or his book in a reliable source. - Location ( talk) 16:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. Farrell is a prolific writer of alternative history, but no coverage in reliable sources. - Location ( talk) 16:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. Neither Fritz or Smith - or their works - are notable or have coverage in reliable secondary sources. - Location ( talk) 16:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I was trying to add a book about the possible involvement of Israel in the assassination of JFK. That book is titled Accomplishing Jim Garrison's Investigation on the Trail of the Assassins of JFK. I tried to explain the relevance of that book, but I was censored. That book was praised by James DiEugenio, one of the main experts on the assassination of JFK, and by many others. Enough reason to add it. 93.41.114.124 ( talk) 11:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
This page is egregiously unbalanced with numerous claims sourced only to WP:FRINGE sources and with little or no counterbalance. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of the independent sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles ... Fringe sources can be used to support text that describes fringe theories provided that such sources have been noticed and given proper context with third-party, independent sources.
(Seen elsewhere in the Wikiverse.)
Would not it have been better to go for the 'You do what we want or we will release information in the election year' option - the comeback if the action was discovered would be far less than for 'propaganda of the deed'.
That 60 years have passed and there is a totally different set of worldviews (there are now children whose parents were born after the end of the Cold War) and it is difficult to visualise the world as it was then will affect perceptions. Jackiespeel ( talk) 12:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Will there be a mention on the Main Page?
And, given the various controversies and claims should this article be suitably monitored for the next week or so? Jackiespeel ( talk) 14:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
footnote #467 https://bloomington.iu.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html#d1&gsc.tab=0 goes to page not found. vroman ( talk) 04:10, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Partially due to the 60th anniversary of the JFK assassination there are many articles recently concerning the Paramount+ original documentary, "JFK: What the Doctors Saw". It premiered Nov 14, 2023. Seven Parkland doctors say neck wound was an entrance wound. Meaning more than one shooter.
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 11:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC) - and see note:
My understanding is that this has been brought up before and ignored. There is not one word, as far as I can tell, in the current versions of Assassination of John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories about any Parkland doctor saying the neck wound is an entry wound. Even though various Parkland doctors have been saying this for years. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 11:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
just reporting what they saw.An argument that is frequently invoked about Bob Lazar's claims. That doesn't mean they aren't forwarding a conspiracy theory. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 15:05, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
From the NY Times article you dismiss: "the professional opinions of the physicians present in the president’s Parkland Memorial Hospital emergency room. ... What did the staff observe? An entrance wound on Kennedy’s throat. What does that suggest? A bullet entered from the front. Why is that significant? It contradicts the findings of the Warren Commission. ... You will finish the film agreeing that what the doctors saw is crucial." -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
7 doctors testifying to the same thingactually doesn't mean what you think it means. Doctors testify to things all the time in the media, like alien implants and Covid quackery. Until mainstream scholarship in medical journals endorses the conclusion of these doctors, their opinion stays relegated to the fringe/tabloid domain. See WP:MEDRS. Not giving fringe ideas WP:UNDUE weight isn't censorship. It's good editorial policy. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 16:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Note. See recent discussion at Talk:Assassination of John F. Kennedy#Parkland doctors say neck wound was an entrance wound. Meaning more than one shooter. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 23:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Specifically with respect to the nature of edits such as this one by User:Canada Jack, we should be careful not to attempt to nullify the HSCA's findings here. Its conclusion, "on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy" certainly has many detractors, but notwithstanding, as no other official process has ever risen to overturn it, there really is no basis for us to do so either (whether by drawing on certain interpretations of its validity by some other party or otherwise comparing it to any other (independent) federal investigation). Earl of Arundel ( talk) 06:42, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
The onus is on you, Earl of Arundel, to cite something which says the conclusion of conspiracy was only "partially" driven by the acoustic evidence. So far, you've failed to do so. It wasn't in the conclusions you posted to the NO OR page - indeed, as I said above, the only evidence cited in that conclusion... was the acoustic evidence, implying exactly what I claimed! Canada Jack ( talk) 20:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Rather than continue discussion of this issue on
CanadaJack's talk page, I'm just reposting the most current comments from there to here:
The answer was in front of our face all this time on the article of House Select Committee on Assassinations itself, maybe it was even staring at us and maybe it was having fits cuz of the laughter:
Although the HSCA had prepared a draft report confirming the Warren Commission's single shooter theory and finding no evidence of conspiracy, at the eleventh hour, the committee was swayed by a since-disputed acoustic analysis of a dictabelt police channel recording. [1]: 495 This acoustic analysis of the dictabelt recording by the firm Bolt, Beranek and Newman Inc. concluded that four shots were fired at the president, thus causing the HSCA to reverse its earlier position and report "that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy." [1]: 9 In terms of scientific evidence, the HSCA acknowledged that the existence of a second shooter was only supported by this acoustic analysis. [1]: 84
—usernamekiran
(talk)
20:28, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
References
Kiran, everyone is entitled to their interpretation of the facts. What the facts constitute is guided by consensus. Closing the discussion to make preeminent one participant's view of the facts, seems problematic. Doubly so when done by that same participant. I see nothing wrong with having this discussion open for other editors to further comment on. Why should it be frozen for one view to be represented above all others simply because its proponent deems it the factual one? It doesn't work like that on Wikipedia. We have mechanisms in place to close discussions and this seems far from being a suitable candidate. Again, except for RMs and RfCs, regular discussions are not closed anywhere except perhaps AN/I, XfD, etc. Not unless the discussion becomes so highly toxic, it's better closed. El_C 05:50, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Material cited to conspiracy believer Michael Parenti's website has been added multiple times. [2] [3] The material from that website states:
First, Michael Parenti is not a reliable source for information on the assassination of JFK. This particular section is Parenti's attempt to support the "state within a state" conspiracy. Second, the material is self-published. Third, the only hits I can find for a sociologist named "David Simone" are linked to Parenti's writings. - Location ( talk) 22:28, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Current media sensationalism about the new documents must be backed by documents shown on the National Archives website. [4] JoetheMoe25 ( talk) 15:39, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
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I've just corrected an error in the text, see the reference I give.
The text as it was is a very common mistake made by people who criticise Donahue's work without actually reading it! And following the publication of JFK: The Smoking Gun, we can expect more and more of it. McLaren's work is worth a read too, but it is nowhere near as thorough as Donahue's. But many reviewers assume that, having read McLaren, they don't need to read the work on which it is based but can pretend they have. Bad mistake. See here for just one example. Andrewa ( talk) 02:02, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Article talk pages are not the place to discuss our own personal views on whether or not this or any other theory is impossible. [5]
It can be difficult to draw the line. I have felt it appropriate to disclose my view, and still think that was appropriate. But I've been trying very hard not to promote this view here. In the article we can and should cite reliable sources that discuss the merits of the various theories. But that is all. Andrewa ( talk) 18:58, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
As indicated above, I think this edit is uncalled for. It removes material that is relevant and interesting and which Lattimer, Donahue and Menninger all regarded as important, and the reason for its removal seems to be purely the theories of Canada Jack as to what actually happened. It would, in my opinion, improve Wikipedia to reinstate it.
But it would achieve nothing for me to revert it. My views are clear I think, as are theirs, and I think we should both now leave it to others to follow up in due course. Andrewa ( talk) 13:36, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I recently added a quote by RFK, but it was falsely called vandalism by BrandonTR. I Think it should be added. It's from a great source, Bobby Kennedy himself. Here it is:
...divine retribution. He said that. Then he went on and said that, when he was growing up, somebody he knew - who had misbehaved - was on a sled or something, ran into a tree, hit his head, and became cross-eyed. He said that was God's retribution for people who were bad. So you should be careful of cross-eyed people because God put his mark on them. And this might very well be God's retribution to President Kennedy... (Source: Cite book|title=Robert Kennedy In His Own Words: The Unpublished Recollections of the Kennedy Years|last=Kennedy|first=Robert|publisher=Bantam|year=1989|isbn=978-0553346619|location=United States|pages=105)
I know I could have added more around this quote to make it flow better and I will try to do that and I hope others will to. I'm fine with someone deleting it as well, if they have a constructive reason and a bit of helpful criticism, but just shouting "vandalism" doesn't help. HAL 333 02:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd agree it's not vandalism, instead it's a good-faith edit. Problem is, while it's a lovely quote, how does this fit into a page on conspiracies to kill JFK? Unless there's a "God did it" conspiracy! Canada Jack ( talk) 17:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The text says the following:Brugioni recalls seeing a "white cloud" of brain matter, three or four feet above Kennedy's head, and says that this "spray" lasted for more than one frame of the film. The version of the Zapruder film available to the public depicts the fatal head shot on only one frame of the film, frame 313.
Perhaps it's just the way it is written. However, the text seems to imply that the 'white cloud' did not last for more than one frame of the film. What is meant by "depicts the fatal head shot on only one frame of the film"? Obviously, the impact itself is only on frame 313. But the physical reaction of Kennedy's head matter does indeed carry on until at least Z-316, if not 317. The quality of the film doesn't make it clear by 317, and by 318 Zapruder had introduced camera shake (probably in reaction to the sound of the shot). But it's certainly clear that there is a plume of tissue and blood above Kennedy's head up to and including Z-316, and the projectiles of presumably parts of his skull or brain are clearly visible in both 313 and 314 (and possibly also 315).
It's not actually easy to talk about this, for me. And I've had to watch the bloody scene for the six hundreth time now! Anyway, I think the second sentence may need reworded for clarity.
Also, what is meant by "the Zapruder film available to the public"? Surely there was only one Zapruder, and one Zapruder film of the event? There may have been multiple prints made (and I'm not sure how many of these are publically available), but I think this needs clarification also. As in, "The Zapruder film available to the public..." --
82.21.97.70 (
talk)
16:39, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi, the 4th paragraph of the "Alleged inconsistencies" section has a long list of various investigation inconsistencies in a sentence that is kind of hard to read - unwieldy even. It's 154 words long and the list grammar/formatting is borderline questionable. I think this information would be better conveyed in a breakout bullet point form. If not that, maybe it would be better to parse it out into multiple sentences.
I'm new to wiki editing, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this. Feel free to let me know if this isn't the right approach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dylanesmo ( talk • contribs) 10:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Not seeing/hearing anyone in the staircase she was on the fourth floor 2600:1700:4000:62E0:6903:9276:56E:9576 ( talk) 21:31, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
The "Prayer Man" theory, to begin with, is bogus as far as its claim that it shows Lee Harvey Oswald in the shadows on the front steps of the Depository during the assassination, however, as far as Wikipedia rules, the entry itself is not credible and is based on false claims in almost every sentence of the entry...First off the claim that Prayer Man is a man is wrong and has been proven to be a female...In 2016 digital photo expert Chris Davidson managed to enhance the NBC newsreel "Wiegman Film" in which Prayer Man is seen and brought out the face of a woman on Prayer Man...Also - the hands in a praying position that is the source of Prayer Man's moniker is actually that woman holding her purse up in front of her...Photo analysis showed that Prayer Man is wearing a uniform-colored dress from shoulder to knee and not showing the color breaks between Oswald's shirt, belt, and pants...This once again confirms that Prayer Man is a woman...Whoever wrote the article entered the false claim that Marina Oswald confirmed that Prayer Man was Lee...This is not true...The Prayer Man supporter who sent Marina Stan Dane's Prayer Man book, Ed LeDoux, recorded Marina in a phone call and Marina told him she hadn't read the book LeDoux mailed her...From his conversation with Marina in that recorded phone call it was clear that Marina thought she was being asked about the original mistaking of Billy Lovelady for Oswald in Ike Altgens' 1963 photo of the Depository front steps...The claim in the presently-existing Prayer Man entry that Marina confirmed Oswald was Prayer Man is provably false and is based on deliberate misrepresentation that is typical of how the Prayer Man group supports its bogus claim...The next flagrant untruth the editor makes is the claim that the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter never happened and was fabricated by manager Truly and Officer Baker...Whoever wrote this entry omitted the fact that there were several witnesses to Oswald being in that 2nd floor lunch room, the latest being Buell Frazier who said a partly-eaten cheese sandwich and apple was seen on that table after the assassination in the exact spot Oswald was seen eating lunch...The reason the Prayer Man believers need to get rid of the 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter is because they know it makes Oswald being out on the front steps unlikely...Next, the editor ignores that Baker's encounter could not have happened on the 4th floor because Mrs Garner said she was there watching the steps and saw Baker & Truly emerge...It is just outright dishonest for the editor to then continue that Truly saw Oswald in a storage closet on the 1st floor while not informing the reader that this was at least ten minutes after the assassination after Truly had searched the upstairs and returned to the ground floor...He does the same thing with Ochus Campbell, who also made clear that he did not see Oswald hiding in the utility closet under the front stairs until after he had gone to the Grassy Knoll and returned back to the Lobby...The editor is stretching context and trying to make it look like those witnesses saw Oswald right after Prayer Man was seen not too far away in the Depository front entranceway...Once again, when Fritz indicated Truly saw Oswald "somewhere near the back stairway" he was describing the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter and therefore confirming its real-ness...The editor is doing an outright intentional mis-informing of the reader because Campbell was quite clear the "storage room" he saw Oswald in was the utility closet under the front stairway and not the rear store room the editor is dishonestly inferring...The editor continues his deliberate prevarication by claiming FBI agent Hosty's notes of the 3pm interrogation of Oswald on the day of the assassination indicated Oswald was out on the front steps watching the presidential parade...There were 3 witnesses taking notes during Oswald's interrogation by Captain Fritz...They were Fritz, and FBI agents Hosty & Bookhout...When their notes were compared all 3 sets of notes started at the Lunch Room Encounter 90 seconds after the shots, then went down to the 1st floor to eat lunch, and then after lunch was eaten went out to the front steps to watch the presidential parade...If we give Oswald 5 minutes to eat lunch (according to these notes), then the earliest Oswald could show up on the front steps to watch the parade would be 6 1/2 minutes after the shots and not during the assassination as the editor suggests...The last and final whopper is the editor's reference to Postal Inspector Harry Holmes' statement...Holmes was present during Oswald's interrogation on Sunday two days after the assassination...The editor has failed to accurately relate what Holmes actually said...Holmes related that Oswald said he had "come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about"...What Oswald was saying there is he came down from the 2nd floor lunch room where Officer Baker had confronted him and went to the 1st floor Lobby where he was stopped by a cop...The editor is trying to give the false impression that Oswald went from the Prayer Man position on the front steps in to the Lobby where he ran in to Baker & Truly on their way in to the Depository and that Baker and Truly then lied and shifted this encounter to the 2nd floor lunch room, however any accurate interpretation of what Holmes really said makes it clear Oswald had described a 2nd stopping by a cop that occurred in the Lobby after Oswald had come down from the 2nd floor Lunch Room Encounter with Baker, and this was many minutes after the shots...So the reason for this "Talk" entry is to protest that even though the Prayer Man theory may be a legitimate entry as an example of conspiracy theories as far as the credibility of the internal workings of the entry itself it is quite deceptive and uses deliberate mis-representation of evidence as its means...This is typical of Sean Murphy's Prayer Man theory and is a good example of how it was formulated...Murphy himself completely disappeared in 2013 and has never returned to answer for any of this...Prayer Man has been proven to be Depository secretary Sarah Stanton...See the book 'Honest Answers About The Murder Of President John F Kennedy' (Palamara 2021)...
To my mind, conspiracy theories which include Oswald as at least one shooter seem at least more tenable than those who exclude him as being framed such as Garrison’s. Does any conspiracy theory with Oswald being framed address to me what would seem a couple of obvious questions that I haven’t heard addressed? If so, can they be included in the article? Firstly, what was the fallback plan if by plain dumb luck Oswald had been absent from work that day due to illness or any other reason? Would the assassination have been called off? Secondly, and even more likely, I think, what if after the fact Oswald would have had an ironclad alibi such as eating lunch with several coworkers at the time of the shooting? (Indeed, he claimed he was doing exactly that with two coworkers, both of whom denied it.)
I’m not here to debate the issue, just simply to ask what I did above. If such contingencies had been considered by the conspirators according to those who position an innocent Oswald as the fall guy, what exactly do they say the plan was? Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 20:58, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Okay no debate, I will simply tell you that your assunptions are wrong. Not all interrogation reports state that Oswald said he ate lunch with two other workers. The joint Hosty-Bookhout report states that he simply saw the two re-enter the building. The two workers said they entered through a rear loading dock. The window of the domino room gave a perfect view of this.
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize."
You could not "walk through" the domino room. It only had one entrance and in any case, there was no purpose in walking through it. Oswald saw them "walk through" from the dock entrance to the elevator.
Bookhout then wrote a solo report changing this to Oswald saying he ate with these two. As did Fritz. None of the reports were typed while Oswald was still alive. Jarman was asked about having lunch with Oswald, and truthfully denied it - thus effectively beating the falsified alibi.
As for Oswald having an "ironclad alibi" - you answer your own question. They controlled the narrative, the evidence, the witnesses - and after Oswald was murdered, they could claim anything. His ironclad alibi was changed as above so it could be beaten and Hosty falsly claimed he destroyed his interrogation notes (which further state that Oswald said he went out to watch the parade). Luckily these notes did survive and there is evidence that could validate (or refute) that part of the alibi - if it can be prised out of the hands of NBC.
As for your "what if"... there were no shortage of alternative patsies. Frazier was arrested as an accomplice and he owned an Enfield - with an Enfiend being one of the makes of rifles reportedly found on the 6th floor. And another worker, Joe Molina, had his home ransacked by police looking to tie him in since he was on their so-called subversive list.
Hope this helps. 111.220.48.157 ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)gpfloor 111.220.48.157 ( talk) 13:04, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Someone has plonked down what purports to be the rationale for the Warren Commission - trouble is, that rationale seems to be pulled straight from a conspiracy theory - about a second Oswald in Mexico City. So the section needs to be substantially rewritten - or removed.
With the information that someone had been impersonating Oswald, President Johnson expressed concern that the public might come to believe that Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev and/or Cuban leader Fidel Castro was implicated in the assassination — a situation that Johnson said might lead to "... a war that [could] kill 40 million Americans in an hour". Johnson relayed his concern to both Chief Justice Earl Warren and Senator Richard Russell, telling them that they could "serve America" by joining the commission Johnson had established to investigate the assassination
It appears that a lot of this is taken whole cloth from a Frontline article by John Newman, but nowhere does it say that these are the conclusions of the author. This is the OPINION of the author who wrote the article, it is not a FACT. While there are sources which will back up the part about Johnson's fears of the Soviets and /or Cubans being blamed, and a risk of a nuclear war to follow, to suggest this was also driven by the "truth" of an Oswald impersonator is merely the opinion of an author, let alone that there was in fact an imposter, a highly disputed claim.
Therefore this entire "background" section needs to be substantially rewritten or removed. Beyond the implied rationale for Johnson creating the WC, most of the documents I see linked to here were released with the HSCA's Lopez Report back around 1996, part of the release of previously top secret documents surrounding the assassination. And that report - written by staff members hunting a conspiracy - said the evidence was not sufficient to conclude there was an Oswald imposter. That release was eagerly anticipated by conspiracy theorists at the time as it was purported to be a smoking gun that revealed the CIA etc knew there was a second Oswald. In fact, it revealed that the evidence showed that it was most likely indeed Oswald who visited the embassies in question, not an imposter, though the latter possibility could not be ruled out. And this was by staff who had direct access to many of the people in question.
Yet the section basically treats the imposter theory as fact. As with any of the other conspiracy theories on the page, claims should be couched along the line of, "authors claim..." or "one theory suggests..." In terms of this, the very existence of an imposter itself isn't clear as to WHY there'd be an imposter - an entire page could be spent on what an imposter might mean in terms of the assassination, indeed, a real imposter might have nothing at all to do with the assassination, but something to do with the KGB throwing the CIA off certain scents, for example. And any cover-up of any knowledge of this more to do with institutional "cover your ass" when your surveillance subject kills the president, than with some nefarious plot said agency was involved with. Just sayin. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
From the audio recording of Johnson's telephone conversation with Senator Richard Russell:
LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Well you want me to tell you the truth? You know what happened? Bobby and them went up to see him today and he turned them down cold and said "no." Two hours later I called him and ordered him down here and he didn't want to come. I insisted he come, he came down here and told me no twice and I just pulled out what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City and I say now, 'I don't want Mr. Khrushchev to be told tomorrow and be testifying before a camera that he killed this fellow and that Castro killed him and all I want you to do is look at the facts and bring in other facts you want in here, and determined who killed the President and I think you'd put on your uniform of World War I, fat as you are, and do anything you could to save one American life. And I'm surprised that you the Chief Justice of the United States would turn me down.' And he started crying and said, well I won't turn you down. I'll just do whatever you say, but he turned the Attorney General down.
LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Dick, it has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour and you would put on your uniform in a minute. Now the reason I've asked Warren is because he is the Chief Justice of this country and we've got to have the highest judicial people we can have. The reason I ask you is because you have that same kind of temperament and you can do anything for your country and don't go giving me that kind of stuff about you can't serve with anybody--you can do anything. -- BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:59, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I removed this sentence from the lead because it gives credence to debunked conspiracy theories about JFK's murder: "In 1998, the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) unearthed inconsistencies in the prior investigations, and the Board's chief analyst for military records contended that the brain photographs in the Kennedy records were probably not of Kennedy's brain". Yodabyte ( talk) 02:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I restored the sentence from the lead because no "debunking" evidence has been provided. 24.234.77.218 ( talk) 11:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Sources
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Consortiumnews is considered “generally unreliable” for statements of fact, see WP:RSP and the many associated WP:RSN discussions about this website.
Aguilar is also an ophthalmologist. He has no expertise in gunshot wounds, autopsies, or forensic interviewing. So asserting him as an expert falls afoul of WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 17:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
User Shibbolethink removed my edits and claimed that Posner's 1993 book "Case Closed" is unreliable. I find this claim incredible, as it is widely acknowledged that this book, along with Bugliosi's book, is the definite account of the Kennedy assassination. Posner's book is used multiple times as a source in this article. Should we remove all references to this book? Virtuus ( talk) 18:12, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
should we talk about the mob connection conspiracy theory?" but instead: "
should we talk about it to this depth?" The operative question, then, is: Do the breadth of many different secondary sources discuss it to this depth? — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
The current state of the article uses this website quite a bit (e.g. [11] [12] are both cited several times). Do we have any reason to believe this is a reliable source as per WP:RS? Meaning: secondary, independent, with an editorial board, published editorial policy, and wide readership in mainstream circles? Because the more I examine this, the more it seems like a personal website pushing conspiracies. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 03:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
@ BrandonTRA I removed the material in question because it is based solely on WP:PRIMARY sources, and therefore has no demonstration of being WP:DUE.
Per DUE, "avoiding undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects....Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements.... Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute
."
We have no demonstration that this material is DUE, as we do not have it represented in secondary independent reliable sources as characterized in WP:RS. A secondary independent source means completely separated from the subject matter, so these transcripts of the commission proceedings etc. do not count. Those are WP:PRIMARY sources and are not part of determining whether material is WP:DUE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 18:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
@
BrandonTRA: The reference to fox10news is actually an article by local affiliate WASA. per the [q] footnote on the
WP:RSP entry: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG.
" But, regardless, the applicable
WP:RSP entry would actually be Fox News (news excluding politics and science) as this is a topic of history. And that entry reads: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science
". I'm no fan of Fox News, but I am a fan of correctly applied Wikipedia policy. —
Shibbolethink (
♔
♕)
19:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
"There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science
". Indeed, Fox News in not reliable on politics and science, but it's very reliable on entertainment ... lol
BrandonTRA (
talk)
20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is generally reliable on ALL topics other than politics. In the subject of politics, it reliably presents a conservative view of the nature and significance of current events, thereby suffering the vile calumny of the left (or: every other mainstream media source) of being "unreliable." In that context, "unreliable" means "they don't parrot the liberal cant." 98.183.25.236 ( talk) 04:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA ( talk) 05:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG." [13] — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 03:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Fox News is NOT an “unreliable” news channel. It reliably, as I’ve stated before, presents a conservative interpretation of current events. It is the only mainstream news channel which does not parrot the liberal cant. The left cannot tolerate this. Liberal commentators and their toadies (eg, commenters on this page) therefore assault Fox News by vile calumnies imputing the integrity of their journalism. The Left simply tolerates no dissent, being at heart a totalitarian, autocratic and oppressive mentality. 98.183.25.236 ( talk) 17:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
There is a group of organized persons out of the "ReOpenKennedyCase" website who are entering seriously mis-referenced material in Kennedy Assassination Wikipedia articles in order to spin content in favor of their claim that Oswald was seen as "Prayer Man" on the front steps of the Depository during the assassination...They did it in this article in the "Role Of Oswald" section in the following quote: " When asked to account for himself at the time of the assassination, Oswald claimed that he “went outside to watch P. Parade” (referring to the presidential motorcade), and was “out with [William Shelley, a foreman at the depository] in front”,[230] and that he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.[231] Initially, Texas School Book Depository superintendent Roy Truly and Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting. Some researchers, including Stan Dane, theorize that a man who was filmed standing on the Depository front steps during the assassination, referred to as "prayer man", is Oswald. "... The entry's author footnoted the quotes from Mary Ferrell and the Warren Commission Volumes in order to hide their true "ReOpenKennedyCase" source...The last footnote from Stan Dane's "Prayer Man" book is the true source and also the source of the entry author's bias...Because of its esoteric nature in Kennedy research the public who reads this entry will not immediately detect its faux scholarship and intent...The references to "out with Bill Shelley in front" and "went outside to watch the Presidential Parade" have already been proven to be 5 minutes after the assassination according to other information included in those same references but omitted by the entry's author...The quote [he was at the “front entrance to the first floor” when he encountered a policeman.] is a straight bastardization of Harry Holmes describing a second stopping of Oswald at the front door 5 minutes after the shots after he had come down from being stopped by Officer Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...The entry is dishonestly trying to infer this quote by Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was saying Oswald was Prayer Man on the front steps...Its writer omits Holmes saying "Oswald had come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about" right before the quoted part...Typical of the Prayer Man group the following quote is just outright false and intentionally so: "Occhus Campbell, the Depository vice president, said they saw Oswald in the first floor storage room at the time of the shooting"...If you check Campbell's real statement he clearly said that he went to the Grassy Knoll from the front steps after the shooting and minutes later when he returned to the Lobby he saw Oswald hiding in the Storage Room (Source: Occhus Campbell Warren Commission Statement)...The entry writer is being intentionally inaccurate in both his writing and sources and is trying to spin the evidence in the direction of Prayer Man by means of distorted quotes, omissions, and false references... 2601:6C3:4000:C5C0:55D3:2BB3:1672:2625 ( talk) 18:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page: "In the wake of the end of the Cold War and the passage of the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act, the U.S. Government has declassified an enormous number of formerly-secret documents. Among the most stunning are those pertaining to the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy and its subsequent investigations. The new records contain stark indications of conspiracy, and a great wealth of material concerning the hows and whys of the ensuing coverup.
"
This website is not a news organization or a scholarly journal. It does not have an editorial board. It does not have any editorial policy. It is comprised of various essays and thoughts of conspiracy theorists.
The pertinent wikipedia policy is WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 22:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Now you say that the pertinent Wiki policy is WP:FRINGE In other words, you've changed your argument mid-stream from your previous "unreliable" justification to your new "fringe" justification. Of course, your new justification is without merit as well, since you have provided no support that History Matters meets Wiki's criteria for being fringe. You're just wasting everyone's time with this. Tomorrow, when I have the chance, I will simply supply another source for the verbatim Garrison trial testimony that was sourced to History Matters. Hope you like wasting our time... BrandonTRA ( talk) 23:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Just because someone or some site alleges a conspiracy in the case of the JFK assassination does make them FRINGE, nor does it meet Wiki's criteria of FRINGE. Many of those who have held power in the U.S. have alleged a JFK conspiracy, including the government body, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which alleged a Mafia conspiracy, as well as President Lyndon Johnson who alleged a JFK conspiracy involving Khrushchev and/or Castro. It is perfectly OK and within Wiki guidelines to cite sources alleging conspiracy. BrandonTRA ( talk) 00:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
The JFK Assassination Archive disk and other AARC electronic document products are developed by History Matters. Visit our website: www.history-matters.com for more information and to order"This would mean the citation was not actually replaced, just pointed towards a different website run by the same group of people who are, as described above, likely not a reliable source. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 05:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
FWIW: I generally agree with Shibbolethink on the reliability of History Matters. When used properly, I do not have a strong objection to using the primary source material that is not published on the National Archives website; however, I do think President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection on the National Archives website should be the first place to go for primary source material. Unfortunately, a lot of the primary source material is often used to make a point not supported by reliable secondary sources. That material should be stripped from the article. - Location ( talk) 16:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I am wondering to what extent conspiracy sources are permitted to be used in this article. I had originally thought that Wikipedia guidelines allowed fringe material to be discussed in an article only to the extent that it was discussed in reliable secondary sources (see WP:FRIND). Does the fact that we are essentially defining this article as fringe content mean we can ignore that? This article states that there have been 1,000 to 2,000 books written about the assassination with 95% of those being pro-conspiracy. If that means we have 950 to 1,900 pro-conspiracy books, can anyone dump anything from those books into this article as they see fit? Who decides which conspiracy authors or theories are notable for inclusion? - Location ( talk) 16:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The long list of Witness Deaths (about 3 pages of text) creates the impression of overwhelming evidence for the theory they evidence of a conspiracy. The argument that they are not improbable statistically is actually the consensus of reliable sources. It should be in a paragraph at the top of the section, just after (or before) a paragraph summarizing the theory witness deaths are evidence of a conspiracy. Ttulinsky ( talk) 04:14, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
Apparently the CTs think this means that the Bush didn't want to admit he was in Dallas/Dealey Plaza. (Bush did pen a letter in 1979 stating that he was in Tyler, Texas - see Jodie Elliott Hansen's book - so this is consistent with CTs cherry-picking their info.) There is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 20:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is cited to various primary sources, conspiracy sources, a newspaper obituary, and Bugliosi:
The discussion of de Mohrenschildt in the obituary and Bugliosi refer to his connections to Oswald and does not mention a conspiracy involving GHWB. We have some innuendo, but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this, so I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 22:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material is also cited to Jefferson Morley's blog:
This is one of those factoids that is debated among "researchers", but again there is no reliable secondary source of information about the conspiracy that discusses the relevance of this. I am going to remove it from the article. - Location ( talk) 19:47, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. I am sure Torbitt (aka David Copeland) is famous within the wall-garden of conspiracy believers, but this blurb (which in essence states that a conspiracy believer read a book by another conspiracy believer) is the only mention I could find of him or his book in a reliable source. - Location ( talk) 16:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. Farrell is a prolific writer of alternative history, but no coverage in reliable sources. - Location ( talk) 16:15, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The following material appears in the "Other published theories" section:
Removed. Neither Fritz or Smith - or their works - are notable or have coverage in reliable secondary sources. - Location ( talk) 16:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I was trying to add a book about the possible involvement of Israel in the assassination of JFK. That book is titled Accomplishing Jim Garrison's Investigation on the Trail of the Assassins of JFK. I tried to explain the relevance of that book, but I was censored. That book was praised by James DiEugenio, one of the main experts on the assassination of JFK, and by many others. Enough reason to add it. 93.41.114.124 ( talk) 11:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
This page is egregiously unbalanced with numerous claims sourced only to WP:FRINGE sources and with little or no counterbalance. - Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of the independent sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles ... Fringe sources can be used to support text that describes fringe theories provided that such sources have been noticed and given proper context with third-party, independent sources.
(Seen elsewhere in the Wikiverse.)
Would not it have been better to go for the 'You do what we want or we will release information in the election year' option - the comeback if the action was discovered would be far less than for 'propaganda of the deed'.
That 60 years have passed and there is a totally different set of worldviews (there are now children whose parents were born after the end of the Cold War) and it is difficult to visualise the world as it was then will affect perceptions. Jackiespeel ( talk) 12:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Will there be a mention on the Main Page?
And, given the various controversies and claims should this article be suitably monitored for the next week or so? Jackiespeel ( talk) 14:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
footnote #467 https://bloomington.iu.edu/~oah/nl/98feb/jfk.html#d1&gsc.tab=0 goes to page not found. vroman ( talk) 04:10, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Partially due to the 60th anniversary of the JFK assassination there are many articles recently concerning the Paramount+ original documentary, "JFK: What the Doctors Saw". It premiered Nov 14, 2023. Seven Parkland doctors say neck wound was an entrance wound. Meaning more than one shooter.
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 11:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC) - and see note:
My understanding is that this has been brought up before and ignored. There is not one word, as far as I can tell, in the current versions of Assassination of John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories about any Parkland doctor saying the neck wound is an entry wound. Even though various Parkland doctors have been saying this for years. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 11:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
just reporting what they saw.An argument that is frequently invoked about Bob Lazar's claims. That doesn't mean they aren't forwarding a conspiracy theory. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 15:05, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
From the NY Times article you dismiss: "the professional opinions of the physicians present in the president’s Parkland Memorial Hospital emergency room. ... What did the staff observe? An entrance wound on Kennedy’s throat. What does that suggest? A bullet entered from the front. Why is that significant? It contradicts the findings of the Warren Commission. ... You will finish the film agreeing that what the doctors saw is crucial." -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
7 doctors testifying to the same thingactually doesn't mean what you think it means. Doctors testify to things all the time in the media, like alien implants and Covid quackery. Until mainstream scholarship in medical journals endorses the conclusion of these doctors, their opinion stays relegated to the fringe/tabloid domain. See WP:MEDRS. Not giving fringe ideas WP:UNDUE weight isn't censorship. It's good editorial policy. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 16:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Note. See recent discussion at Talk:Assassination of John F. Kennedy#Parkland doctors say neck wound was an entrance wound. Meaning more than one shooter. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 23:39, 11 December 2023 (UTC)