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I had an edit of mine undone and got this message: I undid your recent edit in John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Per WP:PSTS, it is preferable to have secondary sources rather than primary sources. The addition of primary sources indicates that we think something is important (i.e. original research), whereas the addition of secondary sources indicates that someone else thinks something is important. Location (talk) 20:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I believe that Location does not understand the wiki article that s/he referenced. An primary source, to quote form the reference, "are very close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources." Hence, in this case, the Zapruder film is the primary source. What the prohibition is: "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." In other words, if I or someone else attempted to directly interpret the film, that would be prohibited.
A secondary source, on the other hand, "are second-hand accounts, generally at least one step removed from an event. They rely on primary sources for their material, making analytic or evaluative claims about them."
Every one of my cite changes was to a secondary source. The sub-section in question is analysis about the primary source, the Zapruder film, and the view that it is comprised evidence. I put those cites so that a wikipedia reader could read their arguments directly. Instead, the single-source, Bugliosi, is someone who is clearly not unbiased or independent, but wrote his book with the avowed purpose of refuting all the existing theories of the actual subject of the article.
Now, what I think you might have meant—and you have a better argument—is that my sources weren't "reliable". There is the article that says that self-published books aren't reliable in general. It goes on to say: "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." In the case of David Lifton, this is certainly the case. But it is true that most of the theories surrounding the Kennedy assassination have been self-published. However, take the five-volume "Inside the AARB"—a cite you kicked out. This book meticulously cites evidence in the public record, i.e. primary sources. To not be able to cite it does a tremendous disservice to the readership and to truth.
If one can only cite books like Bugliosi's, the article itself becomes patently unfair. As you know well, the whole point of the various rules that are in place is to create a fair, balanced look at the subject—a neutral point of view. This is impossible if one can't cite the sources that give the evidence. At this date - almost 50 years after the assassination — there are very few books or articles that can be said to have a "neutral point of view". And, very few mainstream press articles or books are being written, even as new primary sources continue to develop. Every thing out there at this point argues one side or the other. Therefore, to be fair, to create that neutral point of view, both sides, via cites, must be given so that someone can look at the evidence and evaluate for themselves. This edit creates bias that should not be there. Ramcduff ( talk) 21:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I am clear on what you kicked out. Again, I didn't put in primary sources, which is the reason that you claimed you removed it. This seems to be — I assume — a long-standing confusion that you have. The Zapruder film is the primary source. All the others are secondary sources, including Bugliosi (which is a single-source, which should be avoided per wikipedia guidelines on controversial matters). He references these theories for the purpose of debunking them, thus he is not a disinterested third party source (upon which wikipedia articles are supposed to be built) but an interested secondary source as are the others. They are all analyzing evidence related to the primary source, the film and documents related to the film at the time of the assassination. Thus, there is no place where the theory itself (that the film was altered) is described without bias, nor is there a link to the primary sources that prove their points (which they have references in their books, but Bugliosi does not.) Look, after reading all the wikipedia articles related to sourcing, I think there is a good argument to just get rid of this article all-together, as each article needs to be established on the basis of a disinterested and reliable third party sources and I don't think that they exist on this topic. But given the topic is here, then it should be balanced within itself, both giving cites to the actual reputable theories (one based on evidence that is verifiable) and to those sources, such as Bugliosi, who question those theories. Could you please give me a quote that supports your position that these were primary sources. I have showed above that, my wikipedia's definition, they are classic secondary sources. Ramcduff ( talk) 22:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Here are my two cents. I think Location is correct here. When it is discussing the Zapruder film, the various authors are secondary sources, the actual film the primary source, true. However, when discussion is of the range of authors who have theories in regards to the Zapruder film, those authors are in this case the primary source, (i.e., the primary sources of critiques of the Zapruder film) and Bugliosi's listing of them (for whatever purpose) is the secondary source. Otherwise, we are applying a POV assessment of who the "main" theorists are. These are the main proponents? Says who? You, Ramcduff? No, Location is correct to insert Bugliosi. Not sure if you have read the Bugliosi book, Ramcduff, but he actually gives a very good overview of the history of the conspiracy theories, who has been promoting them, and their influence on the subject in the public sphere. Sure, he takes issue with almost all of them, but he is one of the very few who has gone to the trouble of grouping them and tracing the evolution of the various arguments and theories. The fact he picks apart their various theories is neither here nor there for the purposes of what we need him here for. He is an excellent source in terms of tabulating the various theorists by particular aspects of the assassination. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:36, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Re Location point number 1 - I understand, sorry I didn't include links
Re Location point number 2 (and Canada Jack)
Basically, what you two are saying is that secondary sources are rendered into primary sources by being the object of an article. However, I don't think anything that was pointed to within the wikipedia article indicates that should be the case. It is clear by the definition of primary source "which is the original source of the information being discussed" that this information is the Zapruder film and the documents (i.e. chain of evidence) about it. The people who have studied the film and associated documents and have come to the conclusion from that, that the film was altered, does not constitute "direct knowledge of a situation" (necessary to be a primary source as you quoted above), but is classic "generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information."(secondary source) Their knowledge is indirect, via the primary evidence. An "allegation" made through analysis of a primary source does not then become a "primary source" in most cases. The article does state "some sources may be classified as primary or secondary, depending on how it is used" with links to various articles about it. They conclude that a secondary source may become a primary source if it is the object of a critique of that secondary source. [Emphasis added] An example given is this: "But a source may be primary or secondary, depending on what the researcher is looking for. Smith’s American Reading Instruction (1965), for instance, is obviously a secondary source, based mainly on the study of a large number of children’s readers. Her book could also, however, be used as a primary source if Smith herself and her views on reading instruction were the object of investigation." (italics added) From footnote 6 in WP:PSTS</ref> [1] This is the only case given in the wikipedia article's or supporting footnotes in which a secondary source of a historical nature changes to a primary source: when it is the object of critique. Therefore, from Bugliosi's point of view, yes those critiques became his primary sources. However, Wikipedia article's are not suppose to be critiques of material they present. This is encylopedia, and is not suppose to take sides. This section is suppose to present information neutrally about this particular piece of evidence. That is: "This is what they secondary sources have concluded by their studies about the Zupruder film" (with cites to their work) There then could be a sentence disputing that, with cites to those works. Or, of course, Wikipedia would prefer an independent third-party but, as I have already argued, they really don't exist in this realm so to create balance is important that both sides are represented in an even-handed manner.
There is another point I would like to make. The article is chock-full of cites just as I had tried to do. That is: a secondary analysis of primary source material. I am not going to give the full list, but just look at 17-28, 32-37 to see what I mean.
I would be perfectly happy to keep Bugliosi as a cite—and yes, I have read him—but also feel that the actual material should be cited as it is with most other theorist presented in the article otherwise this section is rendered into a critique contrary to Wikipedia policy. Ramcduff ( talk) 18:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I didn't see that sentence that way—that the lists those who made the argument was part of his critique (and to say it isn't a critque is odd since it certainly is, however limited)—but I am willing to see it from your angle and drop this discussion with this: so if I understand this, I should simply leave those sentences alone and then add my own text that makes the point I wish to make with cites within Wikipedia standards?
I do want to add that I do think that, per the plea to shorten this article with summary and put relevant portions on other pages, that this section should properly be a sentence of two summary with redirection to a Zapruder film page with a section on critiques of it there. As a newbie, I am not going to do that at this point unless others think it is a good idea. Ramcduff ( talk) 18:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
At this point, the Lifton article is still without a summary of his thesis, so it would be premature. There is, in fact, more about his thesis here than there. That said, I am working on a summary there and, at that point, I will come back and make this one leaner. Then, once I really get the hang us this, perhaps do the Zapruder film move. Thanks to you two for explaining your viewpoint, I appreciated the dialogue. Ramcduff ( talk) 01:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be a kind of obsession with shortening the article and breaking it up into a series of subtopics. However, in comparing the article to other momentous articles, for example "World War II", the article does not appear to be that long -- especially considering that at least one thousand books have been written on the subject of the JFK assassination. BrandonTR ( talk) 07:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I think we have done enough on here, it needs no more edits unless they have to be impoved... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.136.227 ( talk) 20:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Are we truly expected to supply all the "official" responses? Because there are a lot of allegations on this page with other explanations that don't seem to have an explanation supplied. If we are to do so, as in some cases we have the "official" line and then the allegations, it makes more sense to have the HSCA response AFTER the allegations as it responded to the claims, rather than the other way around. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Instead of removing the following text, I decided to give other editors an opportunity to fix this text. No need to repeat the back-and-forth edit warring which happened with the Tippit stuff. Here is the text:
Paul O'Connor, a laboratory technologist who assisted in the autopsy of President Kennedy, claimed that the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was conducted in obedience to a high command of admirals and generals. [2] O'Conner's fellow hospital corpsmen, James Jenkins, said:
We were all military, we could be controlled.... I was 19 or 20 years old, and all at once I understood that my country was not much better than a third world country. From that point on in time, I have had no trust, no respect for the government. [2]
One member of the autopsy team, Lieutenant Colonel Pierre Finck, testified at the trial of Clay Shaw that the autopsy doctors were ordered not to talk about what they had seen in the autopsy room. Finck said:
...when you are a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army you just follow orders, and at the end of the autopsy, we were specifically told—as I recall it, it was by Admiral [Edward C.] Kenney, the Surgeon General of the Navy—this is subject to verification—we were specifically told not to discuss the case. [3] [4]
The issue here is that there is nothing to indicate "conspiracy" or other relevant suspicious activity. As it stands, we have one guy saying the military was in charge of the autopsy and this caused him to lose faith in his country, and the other saying he was told not to discuss the case. In both instances, this is pretty standard practice in a military setting (which Bethesda was). What we need here is something more explicit, such as claims that the military took control and didn't allow a proper autopsy to be carried out, in connection with a cover-up, and in Finck's case, someone who claims that Finck was told not to discuss the case so as to cover up a conspiracy or what have you. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
There were kind of mysterious civilian people, in civilian clothes — were there [at Bethesda]. It seemed like they commanded a lot of respect and attention — sinister looking people. They would come up and look over my shoulder, or look over Dr. Boswell's shoulder, and run back, and they'd have a little conference in the corner. Then all at once the word would come down: "Stop what you're doing and go on to the other procedure." And that's the way it was all along. We just jumped back-and-forth, back-and-forth. There was no smooth flow of procedure at all. [5]
Brandon, that new O'Connor quote fits in with the theme of the article, but that doesn't fix the other two quotes. There is still nothing within those two quotes to suggest "conspiracy" or "cover-up." Officious, control-freak military types aren't synonymous with conspiracy/cover-up. And, I don't need to tell you this, combining quotes to suggest a conclusion is OR, especially given the fact that Finck did not consider the autopsy "guided" by the military. We need someone or something to explicitly state coverup/conspiracy with those two people. With Jenkins, I'm sure we can find him saying that the actions of the military there indicated that to him. With Finck, you won't find him saying those actions meant coverup/conspiracy, but there are certainly many authors who say as much, so we need someone inserted saying that about his experience. Canada Jack ( talk) 13:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I hope you are joking, Brandon. All those quotes say is a) 19- and 20-year-olds are easily controlled by the military and b) personnel were told not to talk to anyone. The article is about cover-ups and conspiracies related to the Kennedy assassination not about the persuasive sway of the military. As for "cherry-picking," if anything the only thing here being "cherry-picked" is Finck's quote, as Finck has been quite explicit from Day 1 about there NOT being any interference by the military, that the autopsy was above-board, that there was no cover-up. Yet you want to imply with a cherry-picked quote from Finck something he never believed - that there was a conspiracy/cover-up in terms of the circumstances of the autopsy.
As I indicated earlier, we need an author stating the quotes are indicative of cover-up/conspiracy or, at least in the case of Jenkins, an additional quote from him saying that. Otherwise, the content will be removed. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC) Canada Jack ( talk) 14:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
It's not about consensus, Brandon. The quotes violate wikipedia policy as they constitute Original Research as they are a synthesis of published material. WP:SYN. Arranging quotes in the manner you have without a source EXPLICITLY linking them to the theme of the page is Original Research, pure and simple. As stand-alone quotes, there is NOTHING within the quotes linking them to the subject of the page which is on cover-ups and conspiracies related to the Kennedy assassination. In this situation, military control and/or military orders per se does not mean "conspiracy" or "cover-up." We need someone to say as much. Here is the policy: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.
I have flagged this for you, suggested a simple fix, and all I am getting from you is a lot of hue and cry, not really sure what you don't get here. So, if there is nothing changed, I will remove the text on Tuesday. Canada Jack ( talk) 15:04, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
And the text will be restored on Wednesday, as per Wikipedia's policy of consensus. 70.189.205.138 ( talk) 20:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Good work Brandon. Listen, I am getting a bit turned off by your insistence on fighting some of these basic changes which need to be done. One of your edit lines made it seem that if not for my temper tantrum, this section would not need to have been changed. No, as soon as outsiders look at this section as it stood, the flagged quotes would have to be modified or removed. And that's a fact, not an opinion. Obviously, we are on different sides of the fence when it comes to the interpretation of the assassination. But I think I have shown a greater interest in properly producing the cases, and doing so in terms appropriate for wikipedia.
Too often here you seem to interpret what are suggestions for improvement from a more-experienced editor as attacks on the article itself.
The very fact that I felt compelled to rewrite the lede which, I should point out, makes the basic case for "conspiracy," should tell you that I have a greater interest in presenting the case than in grinding some pro-WC ax.
What I pointed out in this section on the medical quotes was not an attempt to remove material that suggested "conspiracy," it was to make the text actually reflect the article. In other words, to make the case the section purports to make. It simply did not do that, and that needed to be addressed, and I KNEW it could be addressed as, recall, I was someone who believed "conspiracy" for some 25 years. I know the material, IOW. Now, with the author and the quotes, we have something which actually better makes the case for "conspiracy." I'd still quibble with this section, though perhaps in not the way you'd expect. It still doesn't make the strong case for "conspiracy/ Cover-up" which many authors in fact make, and it SHOULD make that case. I could do it, but you are the one making the main contributions here. In terms of wikipedia, the section is now fine, I believe, as there are no red flags along the lines of POV or OR, etc. But in terms of making the strong case as per the conspiracy authors, I think this section should be rewritten to emphasize the contention that the autopsy was not only led by the military, but the results were manipulated so as to suggest "single gunman." Canada Jack ( talk) 13:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Hmmmm.... seems the only "consensus" that counts is what Brandon determines is "consensus." When it's text I want to change - actually text I asked HIM to change - I can't because of what he describes as lack of "consensus." However, when I write something and HE wants it changed, well, it seems that there is suddenly no "consensus" and the onus is on me to supply a reason why HE can't change it.
I advise you, Brandon, to review wikipedia policies on Ownership of Articles: WP:OWN.
Here is what I had originally written: "Subsequent official investigations confirmed most of the conclusions of the Warren Commission."
He wants the words "federal government" investigations instead. I pointed out that "official" is better as the CT crowd sees "government" wording as intrinsically suspect. "Official" is neutral in this context, and in an article which deals with a contentious subject, more neutral wording is preferred.
But there are several other good reasons to use "official." For one, on the assassination page, we see, in terms of the investigations, the term "Official investigations" to describe them. So, being consistent, we should say "Official." Indeed, "federal government" or "government" is lacking in terms of describing ANY of the investigations.
The Clay Shaw trial is not listed as an "official investigation" in that "Official investigations" section, nor is it described as an "official investigation" on its own page. Of course, there was an investigation by the NOLA DA for a trial, but this is not what we normally consider an "official investigation," I submit. The only person who sees it as an "official investigation" I am aware of is... Brandon. So that line of logic is, by definition, POV. Here is the policy, Brandon: WP:POV.
Further, there was arguably only a single "federal government" investigation - the Warren Commission. The "federal government" comprises the executive, judicial and legislative branches of the American government. The WC, appointed by the Executive, comprised the Supreme Court chief justice, and members of the legislative branch. Subsequent investigations, such as the House Select Committee, involved one branch of the "federal government," but not the federal government itself.
Even if you dismiss that line of argument in terms of "federal government," the Ramsey Clark Panel was not a "federal government" or even "government" investigation, it was a panel of medical experts who investigated the medical evidence, including the autopsy photos. While this was an "official" investigation as the panel was set up by the Attorney General, it was not, per se, a "government" investigation as opposed to the others who consulted medical experts etc as WITNESSES and came to their own conclusions based on their expert testimony. And it was the FIRST "Official" investigation post-WC, and it agreed with the basic medical conclusions of the WC, as per the paragraph in question. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
You're being the nit-picker, Brandon. The main page has a header for these investigations which is called... "Official investigations." As I said, the Ramsey Clark wasn't a "federal government" investigation anyway. Canada Jack ( talk) 12:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Removed this stupidass uncited theory:
The car can clearly be seen not changing momentum basically whatsoever. Also, you don't see any violent forward motion at all. And acceleration of that kind of car would not be able to cause a more violent backward motion than forward. Stupidass theory, and uncited too. So removed. Fresheneesz ( talk) 23:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Three years ago, the New Orleans Conspiracy section was added to this article [2]. It included text regarding the claims of Judith Vary Baker. The Baker text was the upshot of a long discussion regarding what, if anything, should be said about her on wikipedia. [3] An editor would now like to remove the text, she has failed to produce evidence that she was acquainted with Oswald. That change in the text has been reverted. The editor wishing to make the change must now build a case here on the talk page. It's all right here in black and white: Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle [4]. "If your edit gets reverted, look at the article's talk page and its edit history for an explanation... If you have reason to disagree with the explanation given, or you don't see any explanation at all, start a new discussion (section) on the article's talk page to request an explanation for why your edit was reverted, or to present your argument."
To summarize, if Brandon wants to go bat for JV Baker (please tell me this is not happening), then he needs to present an argument here on the talk page. I think the current text has consensus among the editors, and the change does not. Joegoodfriend ( talk) 19:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
HERE'S THE CASE: Even Warren Commission apologist John McAdams acknowledges that Baker has produced evidence, including a book she owns with Oswald's alleged handwriting inscribed on it. Ergo: Baker has produced evidence, so the current claim made in the article that she has not produced evidence is incorrect. BrandonTR ( talk) 21:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The question to be asked is once again obfuscated and hides in plain sight. The question is not whether JVB is being honest. The question is why was David Ferrie carrying on a Cancer Research project in his spare time, and with thousands of white mice stored in his own apartment...? Why had he been studying Cancers since the mid 50's..?
I don't know how this can be worked in, but it's interesting to note there were media reports of shots fired from the grassy knoll (the exact term is even used) on at least one radio broadcast of the day: Voice of America. An MP3 of this recording is under the JFK assassination section of this webpage. 70.72.215.252 ( talk) 23:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
(deleting a mass of material copied from abovetopsecret.com, a discussion forum site that does not qualify as a reliable source for Wikipedia) — Rich wales 21:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The movie Rendezvous with Death by German director Wilfried Huismann deserves mention in the Cuban Conspiracy section. The comments of Alexander Haig from the movie are notable. Jason from nyc ( talk) 00:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
[A] source may be primary or secondary, depending on what the researcher is looking for.
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I am deleting On November 22, 1963, from Testimony of Eyewitness because it make the page shorter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.171.215 ( talk) 20:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Please feel free to update/add to the NASA section. It was based off of a single author's work. There is video and other media available online somewhere, but the purpose of adding the section was just to be inclusive. 69.146.144.86 ( talk) 00:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
This theory - that the CIA killed Kennedy to keep him from learning (and sharing with the Soviets and the public) a secret UFO reverse-engineering program - appears to have been around while in different forms (i.e. [5]). It seems to be a combination of the CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory and the CIA's involvement in the UFO conspiracy theory. (The CIA has something to say about the later: [6].) Lester's book is self-published, however, the coverage in secondary reliable sources seems to stem from an article by AOL's Lee Speigel:
I guess I'm not sure if this should go under "Other published theories", under the section regarding CIA involvement, or keep as a separate section. *sigh* Location ( talk) 19:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Just wanted to clarify the issue of whether Oswald used iron sights or not. "both the WC and the HSCA agreed that Oswald used a scope on the rifle -- the rifle was found w/ a scope mounted on it" said Brandon when he reverted my clarification of this issue. Brandon isn't quite accurate here - the HSCA, as can be seen in the very link to this section, concluded that Oswald - or the shooter - could have refired as quickly as within 1.66 seconds if the iron sights were used. While the scope was on the rifle, the iron sights could still be used, and it is unknown whether the assassin (we know SOMEONE was firing shots from the TSBD) used the scope or the sights. The HSCA, IOW, did NOT conclude Oswald/the assassin used the scope. Which is why the HSCA did their tests using the iron sights. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Binksternet has finally admitted the WC is the great wrong. While it is clearly outside Wikis scope to right this, it is within its scope to document it. Childish insults and religious conviction are great substitutes for careful consideration and acknowledgement of the obvious- the WC was inspired and performed to convince the public of Oswald's guilt, not find out what happened. The inclusion of Dulles at very least has the conspicuous appearance of taint. WC apologists also believe in such things as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and the Iraqi terrorists, which I wish was as harmless as believing in bigfoot and the moon landings being faked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inteluck ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
A scope on a rifle does not indicate that the rifle was used at all, or that any shooter used either sites. The police have a test to determine that, which to my knowledge was not performed on this rifle. A poorly aligned scope does indicate that that rifle would be poor choice to achieve rapid fire hits on a moving target at distance, along with its inherent inaccuracy and poor general condition. But lets face it, it is Canada Jack who is full of the certainty as to what happened, inferred from the mostly contradictory or controversial data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inteluck ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I see problems with this material regarding Joseph Milteer and Pierre Finck. The part about Milteer's statements (secretly recorded by a Miami police informant) is taken straight from a self-published source of a kind that is generally not acceptable here as a reliable source. Quoting from WP:SPS: "Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." Similarly for the Finck testimony at the Clay Shaw trial; if you must quote directly from the trial transcript, find a more reliable source. And in both cases, extensive verbatim quoting from primary source material is discouraged — not absolutely prohibited, to be sure, but it should be limited to "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". In this situation, I believe these extensive primary-source quotes are inappropriate because the reader is being implicitly called upon to conclude from these quotes that Milteer's death was "suspicious" and that Finck's testimony supports allegations of a government conspiracy. If these allegations are credible, find reliable secondary sources which discuss them. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Note, too, that "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" (see WP:PROVEIT). This also applies to the reliability of a source: If a source that appears to be unreliable is in fact reliable, the editor who wants to use the disputed source needs to present a satisfactory case for its usability (e.g., if you think jfklancerforum.com is a well-respected, reliable source and not a self-published blog, you need to establish this to the satisfaction of reasonable people). — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted BrandonTR's removal of citation information ( diff). The assertion that is an advertisement and/or promotional is unfounded. Please discuss. Location ( talk) 21:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
We shouldn't be cherry-picking lengthy quotes to put in the article, so I re-wrote the bit about what Tip O'Neill (w/ ghost-writer William Novak) claimed Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers said regarding the direction of the shots.( diff) The implication here is that alleged perjury on their part somehow points to a conspiracy either by the placement of a grassy knoll gunman or that they were forced to alter their testimony. Unfortunately, leaving this as an implication makes this OR so we need sources explicitly stating how this points to a conspiracy. The O'Neill book alone is not sufficient because he did not say he thought their alleged contradictory statements were evidence of a conspiracy. Location ( talk) 03:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I added this after the Powers info to hopefully mollify some of the critics by providing the Warren Commission's counter-argument: Other witnesses, who appeared before the Warren Commission, also reported hearing shots from the grassy knoll. The Commission discounted such testimony, pointing to "the difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of gunshots" due to the disparate noises produced by a bullet, including: muzzle blast, the shock wave produced by the bullet, the noise produced by the impact of the bullet, and echos. BrandonTR ( talk) 04:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
I think this discussion is getting sidetracked with insults and irrelevant grievances. I've removed it for a very simple reason: as I pointed out here eight (!) years ago, the anecdotes in O'Neill's book are disputed and their factual accuracy is in doubt. Furthermore, O'Donnell himself says "The story is an absolute lie...whoever gave that story is lying. It's an absolute, outright lie." Gamaliel ( talk) 15:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
UTC)
So O'Neill's "official" biographer has detailed "the dubious factual accuracy of the anecdotes in O'Neill's book in general." Really? So tell us what this biographer has to say. BrandonTR ( talk) 07:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
So what do have now? An allegation contained in a book which has numerous people disputing other allegations within the same book! Further, we have 1) the subject of the allegation - O'Donnell- talking about specifically denying the allegation. And, 2) we have Powers in the same allegation "confirming" the story per O'Neill EVEN THOUGH HE TESTIFIED HE THOUGHT HE HEARD SHOTS FROM THE DIRECTION OF GRASSY KNOLL.
In the end, what does the O'Neill anecdote claim? Simply that these two changed their testimony to "rear shot" so as to protect the Kennedys from the ordeal. But how big a deal is this? Especially given that we already had numerous others testifying that a knoll/front shot happened? It's not a big deal at all, IMHO. EVEN IF THE ALLEGATION IS TRUE. As for the FBI, it is entirely ambiguous as to whether the FBI "coerced" them into changing their story, even if it seems they led their witnesses. O'Donnell, after all, cites the feelings of the Kennedys here, NOT pressure from the FBI - as his motivating factor. He may have felt that he should give the "expected" answer for the sake of the Kennedys - not that the FBI wanted that answer. As for evidence of this, again, we have the statement from Powers. HE obviously didn't feel "coerced," given his testimony, he simply felt he needed to protect the Kennedys as per their words.
In the end, I feel we CAN include this on the page, but we need to be careful what, exactly, is being claimed. That O'Donnell and Powers changed their story to spare the Kennedys. And that the FBI questioned their stories (or at least O'Donnell's, it's not clear what story is being "confirmed" by Powers). THEN we can mention that some authors interpret this to mean the FBI coerced them into changing their story. While others feel it was, if true, simply that their motive was to spare the Kennedys. THEN we can mention that O'Donnell specifically denied the allegations O'Neill has (albiet as presented by a CIA operative in 1975) AND Powers in fact testified that he thought he heard shots from the direction of the underpass. AND that O'Neill's book has been widely critisized by many for factual innacuracies. Canada Jack ( talk) 22:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Relevant secondary sources found by Location for this discussion
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Books
Newspaper articles
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Above is a proposal for text that should satisfy the secondary source requirement linking O'Neill's allegations with those of various conspiracy authors. I spent hours digging these up and formatting them, so I hope certain people will keep this in mind when they say I am attempting to suppress a particular point of view.
In my opinion, the O'Neill book is in and of itself a sketchy source, but the claims been discussed in enough other sources that were not self-published. Kelin's Praise from a Future Generation: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy and the First Generation Critics of the Warren Report appears to discuss it, too, but I can only get a snippet view in GBooks. The allegations in the 1975 Chicago Tribune article were also discussed in one of the above sources, so we may choose to include that with O'Donnell's denial. There are plenty of source discrediting the veracity of O'Neill's book but I'm not sure it is appropriate to put here per Wikipedia:Avoid thread mode. It's probably best to create an article entitled Man of the House (book), place reviews of the book there, and link it here where appropriate.
There are so many examples of allegations stating that people thought there was a grassy knoll shooter or that people were intimidated to change their testimony that it almost seems silly to single out one and give this much coverage to it. We would certainly have a book longer than Bugliosi's if we gave this much coverage to all of them. Location ( talk) 00:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
No mention of a motive, ANYWHERE. WHAT IS GOING ON?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.164.8.110 ( talk) 01:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
This is a topic which tends to lead to heated disagreements. I would remind everyone involved that the best way to deal with these disagreements is found at WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. Following the advice on those two pages not only makes things go much more smoothly, it maximizes the chances of getting your way in the end. I'm just saying. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Recent hire to the Dallas PD, Roscoe White, claimed in his diary that after the shooting of JFK, as he, Tippet, and Oswald were driving to the airfield, Oswald started to question what was going on, so White admits he had to shot Tippet who was not privy to the Conspiracy, as reported by Roscoe's son Ricky White in his diary; moreover his mom worked at Jack Ruby's nightclub. [1]
So far the best explanation for why Tippet was killed. Timing and motive don't make Oswald a logical suspect.
Hovering over the Dallas PD scene is that Mayor Cabell's brother had great motive and many means to kill the President. More specifically, why did the Dallas PD hire Roscoe White as a motorcycle officer in Sept. 1963 whose national security credentials would have obviously be known to the Dallas Chief who hired him; and, no doubt, to the Mayor's brother, who had been fired along with Allen Dulles in 1961 after the 'Bay of Pigs' Event they organized became a total fiasco. Constitutional capers ( talk) 20:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the following from the "Possible evidence of a cover-up" section again:
Even if RFK believed it was shoddy work, we cannot imply something that the source doesn't state (i.e. that RFK believed there was a cover-up). Location ( talk) 04:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
If we abide by WP:WEIGHT, there is a good argument to include Buyer, Douglass, and especially Thompson due to the amount of material they have presented relevant to various conspiracy theories and how frequently they have been cited in regards to that material. If we abide by WP:WEIGHT, what do have for RFK Jr.? A few sentences in a Charlie Rose interview. Location ( talk) 04:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually, Brandon, you'll see from the edit history of the article that I've done a pretty good job of taking a jumble mess of conspiracy thoughts and placing them in some reasonable order. This particular assertion is incredibly weak as there is no substantial coverage about any particular conspiracy theory... and that is what this article is about. So, since you stuck the material in the section entitled "Role of Oswald", what does RFK Jr. say what RFK thought about Oswald's role in a conspiracy theory? Location ( talk) 13:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
No, he has simply realized that to be credible, the page should follow wikipedia rules. And he, like many others here, are sick and tired of having to explain again and again and again why these rules have to be followed. Rather than just omit conspiracy theories that you don't happen to like... Right. This is what we are up against. The argument about the Tip O'Neill stuff above is a case in point. There was NO "conspiracy theory" at all there, WHICH IS WHAT THE PAGE IS ABOUT, just an account of what some said they heard. As a stand-alone, it is MEANINGLESS. You HAVE to supply a reason for this, along the lines of "author x says this is evidence ignored by the WC pointing to a conspiracy" and the simple fact that we've had this same discussion again and again and again tells us more [personal attack removed] than this mythical band of pro-WC editors trying to "hide" the "truth." Canada Jack ( talk) 20:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The Warren Commission seemed concerned what RFK thought about the assassination. Indeed the article, under the heading Background even states that the Commission "...indicated that Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State; Robert S. McNamara, the Secretary of Defense; C. Douglas Dillon, the Secretary of the Treasury; Robert F. Kennedy, the Attorney General" reached the conclusion on the basis of information available to them that that Oswald acted alone and that no credible evidence supported the contention that he was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the president. You opine that RFK was working from the same evidence that everybody else was. In fact, you don't know that. People in positions of power are often privy to information that others are not, and RFK was after all Attorney General before he was axed by Johnson. On a different subject, Robert F. Kennedy was quoted as saying that LBJ was "mean, bitter, vicious—[an] animal in many ways.... In this example, we see that RFK had information on Johnson that others did not. BrandonTR ( talk) 23:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Kennedy evidently thought Vietnam was a war of choice, as he told several confidants that he intended to pull out. The Vietnam War was essentially a civil war, with the French having invented the country of S. Vietnam. Most US policy makers fell for the "domino theory" (another French concoction) of why we had to intervene. As it turned out, the domino theory -- the major justification for the war -- turned out to be dead wrong as neither Thailand or Malaysia fell to the Communists. Even Cambodia would would have never come under the power of the Khmer Rouge had Nixon and Kissinger not undermined the government of Prince Sihanouk. Douglas MacArthur -- who had experience fighting in Asia and who is widely regarded as a hawk on military matters -- told Kennedy: "Anyone wanting to commit American ground forces to the mainland of Asia should have his head examined." You almost never see this quote in our sanitized version of history. There's also this:
"Arthur Schlesinger Jr., in his book 'Robert Kennedy and His Times,' documents other episodes showing President Kennedy's determination not to let Vietnam become an American war. One was when Gen. Douglas MacArthur told him it would be foolish to fight again in Asia and that the problem should be solved at the diplomatic table. Later General Taylor said that MacArthur's views made 'a hell of an impression on the President ... so that whenever he'd get this military advice from the Joint Chiefs or from me or anyone else, he'd say, 'Well, now, you gentlemen, you go back and convince General MacArthur, then I'll be convinced.'" --Roger Hilsman, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs under President Kennedy, letter to The New York Times, 20 January 1992 BrandonTR ( talk) 21:35, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
if JFK and RFK had 25,000 special forces people in Vietnam, they seem unlikely to have just decided to pull them out and let the Communists, backed by the Chinese, have another country. JFK was smarting from Cuba, that had been backed by the USSR. To let another country fall to the Commies, this one backed by the Chinese, might well have been intolerable. And the new training role of Special Forces with the resurrected Green Berets in Vietnam, was JFK and RFK's baby. RFK himself probably coined the word "counterinsurgency." So now he's going to give up his counterinsurgents in 1964? I don't think so.
How many fighting ground troops I don't know, but it seems likely the Kennedys would not have given up Vietnam without trying a lot more people and a sea and air blockade, ala Cuba. And run into the same Ho Chi Minh Trail Cambodia problems that Nixon eventually did. But had JFK survived to early 1969 and the end of his second term, that would not have been his problem.
It's worth remembering that before Vietnam, the U.S. hadn't had a Vietnam (unless you count the Bay of Pigs). The US had fought in Korea. Before Korea, the U.S. action that finally drove Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor was cutting off Japan's credit and freezing their assets and trade in July 1941. This provoked by Japan's 1940-41 incursions into... Vietnam. Then called southern French Indochina, and weakened by the French loss to Hitler and their conversion to puppet Vichy and unwilling Japanese allies in the last half of 1940. The Japanese took Saigon in late 1940 and again in July 1941, and that was the U.S. last straw, as it gave Japan bases only 800 miles from the Philippines. So the US had a long history of sticking their necks out with regard to Southeast Asia. JFK was aware that the last time an enemy had taken Saigon, they had gone on to take the Philippines, Malaya, the Dutch Indies, and Guam. JFK had been there for part of that show, himself! So he'd been personal witness to a sort of dominos in that part of the world, featuring the Japanese. Yes, protecting Saigon meant the U.S. was going to ignore the French loss at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. But then, they were the French. ;). Oliver Stone's idea of JFK just tucking his tail in and going home in 1964, is about as fantastic as Stone's vision of a magic bullet. S B H arris 23:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
This material has been included in the section "Role of Oswald", but it says nothing as to what RFK Jr. thought RFK thought what Oswald's role might be. Is there any relevance to this section or are we just trying to get random items into the article? - Location ( talk) 20:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
why cant we have non-conspriacy viewpoint?
so heres mine for consensus...
A non-conspiracy assassination review is probably the final an least theatrical analysis when compared the many cloak & dagger tales of an evil government killing their own good-hearted leader. This less Hollywood-style analysis was shown on a channel 5 documentary broadcast in 2013, where a 'professional' investigator decided to mount a cold case review on the assassination, as was surprised that no one else had done so.
By the programs end it was revealed that a secret-service agent 'accidentally' shot the president with an AR-15 rifle, while returning fire. This explains why kennedy's head was knocked backward, which a bullet shot from behind wouldn't have caused. It also explains why the establishment didn't admit this serious mistake, due to the obvious embarrassment that such a person is hired to protect the president. However it was ironic that his presence, and in a forward car, placed him in this position. The agent was named as William hickey after using CGI simulation trajectory tracing an gunpowder notice reports from witness statements. Though an obvious witness, to prevent perjury he wasn't called to trial, an died of old age 2005. There were many other revelations on other mistakes made by both conspiracy theorists and the official ballistic analysis. [2]
The proper question is not so much was there a conspiracy, but how much conspiracy. It is common knowledge that many documents were kept from public release. Thus there was conspiracy after the fact. I am adding again my contribution to this article and ask that persons kindly refrain from reverting and edit-warring. I am not reverting nor removing what anyone has written. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 22:50, 22 November 2013 (UTC))
I'm proposing the merger of this article into this one. Anyone care to weigh in on where it should go and/or reasons against the merger? -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 18:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, fair enough, and thank you for the analysis, its appreciated. I'm not sure that there's much more that can be added to the Mercer article that is supported by sources. So we're still left with an orphan article. Any suggestions as to where in the Jack Ruby article to add the info? -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 16:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Icarus4 ( talk) 15:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Icarus4 ( talk) 00:14, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I would welcome help with Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean if anyone has any expertise there. An anti-Castro group with links to Guy Bannister. Interesting article but needs an expert eye. Ulcerspar12 ( talk) 20:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
The term "conspiracy theories" was originally circulated in the immediate aftermath of the assassination as a means of distancing anyone who doubted the official narrative from the discussion, and there have been and continue to be ongoing efforts to discredit anyone who expresses such doubts. The term "alternative versions" would be more accurate, since it takes into account the fact that the research done by alternative historians of the JFK assassination, as a whole, is at least as competent and exhaustive as the research advanced in support of the official version. Lestrad ( talk) 06:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Instead of me renaming this section or otherwise omitting this, I want to flag that the following paragraph is not what we'd call "physical evidence" per se, that being Tague's bullet wound, his "physical location" (not the same as "physical evidence") and the suggested trajectory from a place other than the TSBD: "Several conspiracy theories posit that at least one shooter was located in the Dal-Tex Building, which is located across the street from the Texas School Book Depository. According to L. Fletcher Prouty, the physical location of James Tague when he was injured by a bullet fragment is not consistent with the trajectory of a missed shot from the Texas School Book Depository, leading Prouty to theorize that Tague was instead wounded by a missed shot from the second floor of the Dal-Tex Building."
Why not fix the name of this section or otherwise adjust this, Brandon? Canada Jack ( talk) 20:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
In response to the earlier suggestion by Sunrise, I cobbled together the following list of people known for their criticism of the lone gunman theory that could be placed in the article similar to what appears in Moon landing conspiracy theories#Conspiracists and their main proposals. Perhaps there are individuals that should be removed from this list or others that should be added, but I'll let whatever discussion follows shape the consensus for that information. I have also not taken the time to summarize each person's views (perhaps Joegoodfriend or BrandonTR would like to assist if they think this is a good idea), and sourcing is incomplete but what I have noted is from what I would consider to be neutral, non-primary sources. Understanding that some think that "conspiracy theorists" is non-neutral and others, myself included, think that "researchers" is non-neutral, I've tried to label the list or section as neutrally as I can. Again, let's discuss to form some sort of consensus. - Location ( talk) 04:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
List of people known for their criticism of the lone gunman theory
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The section titled Possible evidence of a cover-up states:
There appears to be an edit war brewing over the second sentence, so this should probably be discussed here rather than in the edit summaries. Please discuss. Location ( talk) 18:16, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Citing opinions of individuals, no matter how prominent, is not evidence. The section is about "possible evidence" of a cover-up, and the quote from Schweiker is not "evidence" by any definition, except to those in the conspiracy crowd. I have no particular objection either to a section of prominent people who believe there was a conspiracy/cover-up, but unless any of those individuals possess specific knowledge that a conspiracy/cover-up occurred, the section should be prefaced by a note of the "argument from authority" fallacy in case people are misled into thinking opinions somehow reflect fact. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I had an edit of mine undone and got this message: I undid your recent edit in John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. Per WP:PSTS, it is preferable to have secondary sources rather than primary sources. The addition of primary sources indicates that we think something is important (i.e. original research), whereas the addition of secondary sources indicates that someone else thinks something is important. Location (talk) 20:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I believe that Location does not understand the wiki article that s/he referenced. An primary source, to quote form the reference, "are very close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. An account of a traffic accident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the accident; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources." Hence, in this case, the Zapruder film is the primary source. What the prohibition is: "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." In other words, if I or someone else attempted to directly interpret the film, that would be prohibited.
A secondary source, on the other hand, "are second-hand accounts, generally at least one step removed from an event. They rely on primary sources for their material, making analytic or evaluative claims about them."
Every one of my cite changes was to a secondary source. The sub-section in question is analysis about the primary source, the Zapruder film, and the view that it is comprised evidence. I put those cites so that a wikipedia reader could read their arguments directly. Instead, the single-source, Bugliosi, is someone who is clearly not unbiased or independent, but wrote his book with the avowed purpose of refuting all the existing theories of the actual subject of the article.
Now, what I think you might have meant—and you have a better argument—is that my sources weren't "reliable". There is the article that says that self-published books aren't reliable in general. It goes on to say: "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." In the case of David Lifton, this is certainly the case. But it is true that most of the theories surrounding the Kennedy assassination have been self-published. However, take the five-volume "Inside the AARB"—a cite you kicked out. This book meticulously cites evidence in the public record, i.e. primary sources. To not be able to cite it does a tremendous disservice to the readership and to truth.
If one can only cite books like Bugliosi's, the article itself becomes patently unfair. As you know well, the whole point of the various rules that are in place is to create a fair, balanced look at the subject—a neutral point of view. This is impossible if one can't cite the sources that give the evidence. At this date - almost 50 years after the assassination — there are very few books or articles that can be said to have a "neutral point of view". And, very few mainstream press articles or books are being written, even as new primary sources continue to develop. Every thing out there at this point argues one side or the other. Therefore, to be fair, to create that neutral point of view, both sides, via cites, must be given so that someone can look at the evidence and evaluate for themselves. This edit creates bias that should not be there. Ramcduff ( talk) 21:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I am clear on what you kicked out. Again, I didn't put in primary sources, which is the reason that you claimed you removed it. This seems to be — I assume — a long-standing confusion that you have. The Zapruder film is the primary source. All the others are secondary sources, including Bugliosi (which is a single-source, which should be avoided per wikipedia guidelines on controversial matters). He references these theories for the purpose of debunking them, thus he is not a disinterested third party source (upon which wikipedia articles are supposed to be built) but an interested secondary source as are the others. They are all analyzing evidence related to the primary source, the film and documents related to the film at the time of the assassination. Thus, there is no place where the theory itself (that the film was altered) is described without bias, nor is there a link to the primary sources that prove their points (which they have references in their books, but Bugliosi does not.) Look, after reading all the wikipedia articles related to sourcing, I think there is a good argument to just get rid of this article all-together, as each article needs to be established on the basis of a disinterested and reliable third party sources and I don't think that they exist on this topic. But given the topic is here, then it should be balanced within itself, both giving cites to the actual reputable theories (one based on evidence that is verifiable) and to those sources, such as Bugliosi, who question those theories. Could you please give me a quote that supports your position that these were primary sources. I have showed above that, my wikipedia's definition, they are classic secondary sources. Ramcduff ( talk) 22:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Here are my two cents. I think Location is correct here. When it is discussing the Zapruder film, the various authors are secondary sources, the actual film the primary source, true. However, when discussion is of the range of authors who have theories in regards to the Zapruder film, those authors are in this case the primary source, (i.e., the primary sources of critiques of the Zapruder film) and Bugliosi's listing of them (for whatever purpose) is the secondary source. Otherwise, we are applying a POV assessment of who the "main" theorists are. These are the main proponents? Says who? You, Ramcduff? No, Location is correct to insert Bugliosi. Not sure if you have read the Bugliosi book, Ramcduff, but he actually gives a very good overview of the history of the conspiracy theories, who has been promoting them, and their influence on the subject in the public sphere. Sure, he takes issue with almost all of them, but he is one of the very few who has gone to the trouble of grouping them and tracing the evolution of the various arguments and theories. The fact he picks apart their various theories is neither here nor there for the purposes of what we need him here for. He is an excellent source in terms of tabulating the various theorists by particular aspects of the assassination. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:36, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Re Location point number 1 - I understand, sorry I didn't include links
Re Location point number 2 (and Canada Jack)
Basically, what you two are saying is that secondary sources are rendered into primary sources by being the object of an article. However, I don't think anything that was pointed to within the wikipedia article indicates that should be the case. It is clear by the definition of primary source "which is the original source of the information being discussed" that this information is the Zapruder film and the documents (i.e. chain of evidence) about it. The people who have studied the film and associated documents and have come to the conclusion from that, that the film was altered, does not constitute "direct knowledge of a situation" (necessary to be a primary source as you quoted above), but is classic "generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information."(secondary source) Their knowledge is indirect, via the primary evidence. An "allegation" made through analysis of a primary source does not then become a "primary source" in most cases. The article does state "some sources may be classified as primary or secondary, depending on how it is used" with links to various articles about it. They conclude that a secondary source may become a primary source if it is the object of a critique of that secondary source. [Emphasis added] An example given is this: "But a source may be primary or secondary, depending on what the researcher is looking for. Smith’s American Reading Instruction (1965), for instance, is obviously a secondary source, based mainly on the study of a large number of children’s readers. Her book could also, however, be used as a primary source if Smith herself and her views on reading instruction were the object of investigation." (italics added) From footnote 6 in WP:PSTS</ref> [1] This is the only case given in the wikipedia article's or supporting footnotes in which a secondary source of a historical nature changes to a primary source: when it is the object of critique. Therefore, from Bugliosi's point of view, yes those critiques became his primary sources. However, Wikipedia article's are not suppose to be critiques of material they present. This is encylopedia, and is not suppose to take sides. This section is suppose to present information neutrally about this particular piece of evidence. That is: "This is what they secondary sources have concluded by their studies about the Zupruder film" (with cites to their work) There then could be a sentence disputing that, with cites to those works. Or, of course, Wikipedia would prefer an independent third-party but, as I have already argued, they really don't exist in this realm so to create balance is important that both sides are represented in an even-handed manner.
There is another point I would like to make. The article is chock-full of cites just as I had tried to do. That is: a secondary analysis of primary source material. I am not going to give the full list, but just look at 17-28, 32-37 to see what I mean.
I would be perfectly happy to keep Bugliosi as a cite—and yes, I have read him—but also feel that the actual material should be cited as it is with most other theorist presented in the article otherwise this section is rendered into a critique contrary to Wikipedia policy. Ramcduff ( talk) 18:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I didn't see that sentence that way—that the lists those who made the argument was part of his critique (and to say it isn't a critque is odd since it certainly is, however limited)—but I am willing to see it from your angle and drop this discussion with this: so if I understand this, I should simply leave those sentences alone and then add my own text that makes the point I wish to make with cites within Wikipedia standards?
I do want to add that I do think that, per the plea to shorten this article with summary and put relevant portions on other pages, that this section should properly be a sentence of two summary with redirection to a Zapruder film page with a section on critiques of it there. As a newbie, I am not going to do that at this point unless others think it is a good idea. Ramcduff ( talk) 18:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
At this point, the Lifton article is still without a summary of his thesis, so it would be premature. There is, in fact, more about his thesis here than there. That said, I am working on a summary there and, at that point, I will come back and make this one leaner. Then, once I really get the hang us this, perhaps do the Zapruder film move. Thanks to you two for explaining your viewpoint, I appreciated the dialogue. Ramcduff ( talk) 01:25, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
There seems to be a kind of obsession with shortening the article and breaking it up into a series of subtopics. However, in comparing the article to other momentous articles, for example "World War II", the article does not appear to be that long -- especially considering that at least one thousand books have been written on the subject of the JFK assassination. BrandonTR ( talk) 07:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I think we have done enough on here, it needs no more edits unless they have to be impoved... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.136.227 ( talk) 20:55, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Are we truly expected to supply all the "official" responses? Because there are a lot of allegations on this page with other explanations that don't seem to have an explanation supplied. If we are to do so, as in some cases we have the "official" line and then the allegations, it makes more sense to have the HSCA response AFTER the allegations as it responded to the claims, rather than the other way around. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Instead of removing the following text, I decided to give other editors an opportunity to fix this text. No need to repeat the back-and-forth edit warring which happened with the Tippit stuff. Here is the text:
Paul O'Connor, a laboratory technologist who assisted in the autopsy of President Kennedy, claimed that the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital was conducted in obedience to a high command of admirals and generals. [2] O'Conner's fellow hospital corpsmen, James Jenkins, said:
We were all military, we could be controlled.... I was 19 or 20 years old, and all at once I understood that my country was not much better than a third world country. From that point on in time, I have had no trust, no respect for the government. [2]
One member of the autopsy team, Lieutenant Colonel Pierre Finck, testified at the trial of Clay Shaw that the autopsy doctors were ordered not to talk about what they had seen in the autopsy room. Finck said:
...when you are a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army you just follow orders, and at the end of the autopsy, we were specifically told—as I recall it, it was by Admiral [Edward C.] Kenney, the Surgeon General of the Navy—this is subject to verification—we were specifically told not to discuss the case. [3] [4]
The issue here is that there is nothing to indicate "conspiracy" or other relevant suspicious activity. As it stands, we have one guy saying the military was in charge of the autopsy and this caused him to lose faith in his country, and the other saying he was told not to discuss the case. In both instances, this is pretty standard practice in a military setting (which Bethesda was). What we need here is something more explicit, such as claims that the military took control and didn't allow a proper autopsy to be carried out, in connection with a cover-up, and in Finck's case, someone who claims that Finck was told not to discuss the case so as to cover up a conspiracy or what have you. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
There were kind of mysterious civilian people, in civilian clothes — were there [at Bethesda]. It seemed like they commanded a lot of respect and attention — sinister looking people. They would come up and look over my shoulder, or look over Dr. Boswell's shoulder, and run back, and they'd have a little conference in the corner. Then all at once the word would come down: "Stop what you're doing and go on to the other procedure." And that's the way it was all along. We just jumped back-and-forth, back-and-forth. There was no smooth flow of procedure at all. [5]
Brandon, that new O'Connor quote fits in with the theme of the article, but that doesn't fix the other two quotes. There is still nothing within those two quotes to suggest "conspiracy" or "cover-up." Officious, control-freak military types aren't synonymous with conspiracy/cover-up. And, I don't need to tell you this, combining quotes to suggest a conclusion is OR, especially given the fact that Finck did not consider the autopsy "guided" by the military. We need someone or something to explicitly state coverup/conspiracy with those two people. With Jenkins, I'm sure we can find him saying that the actions of the military there indicated that to him. With Finck, you won't find him saying those actions meant coverup/conspiracy, but there are certainly many authors who say as much, so we need someone inserted saying that about his experience. Canada Jack ( talk) 13:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
I hope you are joking, Brandon. All those quotes say is a) 19- and 20-year-olds are easily controlled by the military and b) personnel were told not to talk to anyone. The article is about cover-ups and conspiracies related to the Kennedy assassination not about the persuasive sway of the military. As for "cherry-picking," if anything the only thing here being "cherry-picked" is Finck's quote, as Finck has been quite explicit from Day 1 about there NOT being any interference by the military, that the autopsy was above-board, that there was no cover-up. Yet you want to imply with a cherry-picked quote from Finck something he never believed - that there was a conspiracy/cover-up in terms of the circumstances of the autopsy.
As I indicated earlier, we need an author stating the quotes are indicative of cover-up/conspiracy or, at least in the case of Jenkins, an additional quote from him saying that. Otherwise, the content will be removed. Canada Jack ( talk) 14:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC) Canada Jack ( talk) 14:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
It's not about consensus, Brandon. The quotes violate wikipedia policy as they constitute Original Research as they are a synthesis of published material. WP:SYN. Arranging quotes in the manner you have without a source EXPLICITLY linking them to the theme of the page is Original Research, pure and simple. As stand-alone quotes, there is NOTHING within the quotes linking them to the subject of the page which is on cover-ups and conspiracies related to the Kennedy assassination. In this situation, military control and/or military orders per se does not mean "conspiracy" or "cover-up." We need someone to say as much. Here is the policy: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.
I have flagged this for you, suggested a simple fix, and all I am getting from you is a lot of hue and cry, not really sure what you don't get here. So, if there is nothing changed, I will remove the text on Tuesday. Canada Jack ( talk) 15:04, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
And the text will be restored on Wednesday, as per Wikipedia's policy of consensus. 70.189.205.138 ( talk) 20:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Good work Brandon. Listen, I am getting a bit turned off by your insistence on fighting some of these basic changes which need to be done. One of your edit lines made it seem that if not for my temper tantrum, this section would not need to have been changed. No, as soon as outsiders look at this section as it stood, the flagged quotes would have to be modified or removed. And that's a fact, not an opinion. Obviously, we are on different sides of the fence when it comes to the interpretation of the assassination. But I think I have shown a greater interest in properly producing the cases, and doing so in terms appropriate for wikipedia.
Too often here you seem to interpret what are suggestions for improvement from a more-experienced editor as attacks on the article itself.
The very fact that I felt compelled to rewrite the lede which, I should point out, makes the basic case for "conspiracy," should tell you that I have a greater interest in presenting the case than in grinding some pro-WC ax.
What I pointed out in this section on the medical quotes was not an attempt to remove material that suggested "conspiracy," it was to make the text actually reflect the article. In other words, to make the case the section purports to make. It simply did not do that, and that needed to be addressed, and I KNEW it could be addressed as, recall, I was someone who believed "conspiracy" for some 25 years. I know the material, IOW. Now, with the author and the quotes, we have something which actually better makes the case for "conspiracy." I'd still quibble with this section, though perhaps in not the way you'd expect. It still doesn't make the strong case for "conspiracy/ Cover-up" which many authors in fact make, and it SHOULD make that case. I could do it, but you are the one making the main contributions here. In terms of wikipedia, the section is now fine, I believe, as there are no red flags along the lines of POV or OR, etc. But in terms of making the strong case as per the conspiracy authors, I think this section should be rewritten to emphasize the contention that the autopsy was not only led by the military, but the results were manipulated so as to suggest "single gunman." Canada Jack ( talk) 13:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Hmmmm.... seems the only "consensus" that counts is what Brandon determines is "consensus." When it's text I want to change - actually text I asked HIM to change - I can't because of what he describes as lack of "consensus." However, when I write something and HE wants it changed, well, it seems that there is suddenly no "consensus" and the onus is on me to supply a reason why HE can't change it.
I advise you, Brandon, to review wikipedia policies on Ownership of Articles: WP:OWN.
Here is what I had originally written: "Subsequent official investigations confirmed most of the conclusions of the Warren Commission."
He wants the words "federal government" investigations instead. I pointed out that "official" is better as the CT crowd sees "government" wording as intrinsically suspect. "Official" is neutral in this context, and in an article which deals with a contentious subject, more neutral wording is preferred.
But there are several other good reasons to use "official." For one, on the assassination page, we see, in terms of the investigations, the term "Official investigations" to describe them. So, being consistent, we should say "Official." Indeed, "federal government" or "government" is lacking in terms of describing ANY of the investigations.
The Clay Shaw trial is not listed as an "official investigation" in that "Official investigations" section, nor is it described as an "official investigation" on its own page. Of course, there was an investigation by the NOLA DA for a trial, but this is not what we normally consider an "official investigation," I submit. The only person who sees it as an "official investigation" I am aware of is... Brandon. So that line of logic is, by definition, POV. Here is the policy, Brandon: WP:POV.
Further, there was arguably only a single "federal government" investigation - the Warren Commission. The "federal government" comprises the executive, judicial and legislative branches of the American government. The WC, appointed by the Executive, comprised the Supreme Court chief justice, and members of the legislative branch. Subsequent investigations, such as the House Select Committee, involved one branch of the "federal government," but not the federal government itself.
Even if you dismiss that line of argument in terms of "federal government," the Ramsey Clark Panel was not a "federal government" or even "government" investigation, it was a panel of medical experts who investigated the medical evidence, including the autopsy photos. While this was an "official" investigation as the panel was set up by the Attorney General, it was not, per se, a "government" investigation as opposed to the others who consulted medical experts etc as WITNESSES and came to their own conclusions based on their expert testimony. And it was the FIRST "Official" investigation post-WC, and it agreed with the basic medical conclusions of the WC, as per the paragraph in question. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
You're being the nit-picker, Brandon. The main page has a header for these investigations which is called... "Official investigations." As I said, the Ramsey Clark wasn't a "federal government" investigation anyway. Canada Jack ( talk) 12:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Removed this stupidass uncited theory:
The car can clearly be seen not changing momentum basically whatsoever. Also, you don't see any violent forward motion at all. And acceleration of that kind of car would not be able to cause a more violent backward motion than forward. Stupidass theory, and uncited too. So removed. Fresheneesz ( talk) 23:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Three years ago, the New Orleans Conspiracy section was added to this article [2]. It included text regarding the claims of Judith Vary Baker. The Baker text was the upshot of a long discussion regarding what, if anything, should be said about her on wikipedia. [3] An editor would now like to remove the text, she has failed to produce evidence that she was acquainted with Oswald. That change in the text has been reverted. The editor wishing to make the change must now build a case here on the talk page. It's all right here in black and white: Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle [4]. "If your edit gets reverted, look at the article's talk page and its edit history for an explanation... If you have reason to disagree with the explanation given, or you don't see any explanation at all, start a new discussion (section) on the article's talk page to request an explanation for why your edit was reverted, or to present your argument."
To summarize, if Brandon wants to go bat for JV Baker (please tell me this is not happening), then he needs to present an argument here on the talk page. I think the current text has consensus among the editors, and the change does not. Joegoodfriend ( talk) 19:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
HERE'S THE CASE: Even Warren Commission apologist John McAdams acknowledges that Baker has produced evidence, including a book she owns with Oswald's alleged handwriting inscribed on it. Ergo: Baker has produced evidence, so the current claim made in the article that she has not produced evidence is incorrect. BrandonTR ( talk) 21:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The question to be asked is once again obfuscated and hides in plain sight. The question is not whether JVB is being honest. The question is why was David Ferrie carrying on a Cancer Research project in his spare time, and with thousands of white mice stored in his own apartment...? Why had he been studying Cancers since the mid 50's..?
I don't know how this can be worked in, but it's interesting to note there were media reports of shots fired from the grassy knoll (the exact term is even used) on at least one radio broadcast of the day: Voice of America. An MP3 of this recording is under the JFK assassination section of this webpage. 70.72.215.252 ( talk) 23:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
(deleting a mass of material copied from abovetopsecret.com, a discussion forum site that does not qualify as a reliable source for Wikipedia) — Rich wales 21:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The movie Rendezvous with Death by German director Wilfried Huismann deserves mention in the Cuban Conspiracy section. The comments of Alexander Haig from the movie are notable. Jason from nyc ( talk) 00:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
[A] source may be primary or secondary, depending on what the researcher is looking for.
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I am deleting On November 22, 1963, from Testimony of Eyewitness because it make the page shorter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.171.215 ( talk) 20:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Please feel free to update/add to the NASA section. It was based off of a single author's work. There is video and other media available online somewhere, but the purpose of adding the section was just to be inclusive. 69.146.144.86 ( talk) 00:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
This theory - that the CIA killed Kennedy to keep him from learning (and sharing with the Soviets and the public) a secret UFO reverse-engineering program - appears to have been around while in different forms (i.e. [5]). It seems to be a combination of the CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory and the CIA's involvement in the UFO conspiracy theory. (The CIA has something to say about the later: [6].) Lester's book is self-published, however, the coverage in secondary reliable sources seems to stem from an article by AOL's Lee Speigel:
I guess I'm not sure if this should go under "Other published theories", under the section regarding CIA involvement, or keep as a separate section. *sigh* Location ( talk) 19:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Just wanted to clarify the issue of whether Oswald used iron sights or not. "both the WC and the HSCA agreed that Oswald used a scope on the rifle -- the rifle was found w/ a scope mounted on it" said Brandon when he reverted my clarification of this issue. Brandon isn't quite accurate here - the HSCA, as can be seen in the very link to this section, concluded that Oswald - or the shooter - could have refired as quickly as within 1.66 seconds if the iron sights were used. While the scope was on the rifle, the iron sights could still be used, and it is unknown whether the assassin (we know SOMEONE was firing shots from the TSBD) used the scope or the sights. The HSCA, IOW, did NOT conclude Oswald/the assassin used the scope. Which is why the HSCA did their tests using the iron sights. Canada Jack ( talk) 16:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Binksternet has finally admitted the WC is the great wrong. While it is clearly outside Wikis scope to right this, it is within its scope to document it. Childish insults and religious conviction are great substitutes for careful consideration and acknowledgement of the obvious- the WC was inspired and performed to convince the public of Oswald's guilt, not find out what happened. The inclusion of Dulles at very least has the conspicuous appearance of taint. WC apologists also believe in such things as weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and the Iraqi terrorists, which I wish was as harmless as believing in bigfoot and the moon landings being faked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inteluck ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
A scope on a rifle does not indicate that the rifle was used at all, or that any shooter used either sites. The police have a test to determine that, which to my knowledge was not performed on this rifle. A poorly aligned scope does indicate that that rifle would be poor choice to achieve rapid fire hits on a moving target at distance, along with its inherent inaccuracy and poor general condition. But lets face it, it is Canada Jack who is full of the certainty as to what happened, inferred from the mostly contradictory or controversial data. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inteluck ( talk • contribs) 00:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I see problems with this material regarding Joseph Milteer and Pierre Finck. The part about Milteer's statements (secretly recorded by a Miami police informant) is taken straight from a self-published source of a kind that is generally not acceptable here as a reliable source. Quoting from WP:SPS: "Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so." Similarly for the Finck testimony at the Clay Shaw trial; if you must quote directly from the trial transcript, find a more reliable source. And in both cases, extensive verbatim quoting from primary source material is discouraged — not absolutely prohibited, to be sure, but it should be limited to "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge". In this situation, I believe these extensive primary-source quotes are inappropriate because the reader is being implicitly called upon to conclude from these quotes that Milteer's death was "suspicious" and that Finck's testimony supports allegations of a government conspiracy. If these allegations are credible, find reliable secondary sources which discuss them. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Note, too, that "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" (see WP:PROVEIT). This also applies to the reliability of a source: If a source that appears to be unreliable is in fact reliable, the editor who wants to use the disputed source needs to present a satisfactory case for its usability (e.g., if you think jfklancerforum.com is a well-respected, reliable source and not a self-published blog, you need to establish this to the satisfaction of reasonable people). — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted BrandonTR's removal of citation information ( diff). The assertion that is an advertisement and/or promotional is unfounded. Please discuss. Location ( talk) 21:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
We shouldn't be cherry-picking lengthy quotes to put in the article, so I re-wrote the bit about what Tip O'Neill (w/ ghost-writer William Novak) claimed Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers said regarding the direction of the shots.( diff) The implication here is that alleged perjury on their part somehow points to a conspiracy either by the placement of a grassy knoll gunman or that they were forced to alter their testimony. Unfortunately, leaving this as an implication makes this OR so we need sources explicitly stating how this points to a conspiracy. The O'Neill book alone is not sufficient because he did not say he thought their alleged contradictory statements were evidence of a conspiracy. Location ( talk) 03:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
I added this after the Powers info to hopefully mollify some of the critics by providing the Warren Commission's counter-argument: Other witnesses, who appeared before the Warren Commission, also reported hearing shots from the grassy knoll. The Commission discounted such testimony, pointing to "the difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of gunshots" due to the disparate noises produced by a bullet, including: muzzle blast, the shock wave produced by the bullet, the noise produced by the impact of the bullet, and echos. BrandonTR ( talk) 04:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
I think this discussion is getting sidetracked with insults and irrelevant grievances. I've removed it for a very simple reason: as I pointed out here eight (!) years ago, the anecdotes in O'Neill's book are disputed and their factual accuracy is in doubt. Furthermore, O'Donnell himself says "The story is an absolute lie...whoever gave that story is lying. It's an absolute, outright lie." Gamaliel ( talk) 15:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
UTC)
So O'Neill's "official" biographer has detailed "the dubious factual accuracy of the anecdotes in O'Neill's book in general." Really? So tell us what this biographer has to say. BrandonTR ( talk) 07:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
So what do have now? An allegation contained in a book which has numerous people disputing other allegations within the same book! Further, we have 1) the subject of the allegation - O'Donnell- talking about specifically denying the allegation. And, 2) we have Powers in the same allegation "confirming" the story per O'Neill EVEN THOUGH HE TESTIFIED HE THOUGHT HE HEARD SHOTS FROM THE DIRECTION OF GRASSY KNOLL.
In the end, what does the O'Neill anecdote claim? Simply that these two changed their testimony to "rear shot" so as to protect the Kennedys from the ordeal. But how big a deal is this? Especially given that we already had numerous others testifying that a knoll/front shot happened? It's not a big deal at all, IMHO. EVEN IF THE ALLEGATION IS TRUE. As for the FBI, it is entirely ambiguous as to whether the FBI "coerced" them into changing their story, even if it seems they led their witnesses. O'Donnell, after all, cites the feelings of the Kennedys here, NOT pressure from the FBI - as his motivating factor. He may have felt that he should give the "expected" answer for the sake of the Kennedys - not that the FBI wanted that answer. As for evidence of this, again, we have the statement from Powers. HE obviously didn't feel "coerced," given his testimony, he simply felt he needed to protect the Kennedys as per their words.
In the end, I feel we CAN include this on the page, but we need to be careful what, exactly, is being claimed. That O'Donnell and Powers changed their story to spare the Kennedys. And that the FBI questioned their stories (or at least O'Donnell's, it's not clear what story is being "confirmed" by Powers). THEN we can mention that some authors interpret this to mean the FBI coerced them into changing their story. While others feel it was, if true, simply that their motive was to spare the Kennedys. THEN we can mention that O'Donnell specifically denied the allegations O'Neill has (albiet as presented by a CIA operative in 1975) AND Powers in fact testified that he thought he heard shots from the direction of the underpass. AND that O'Neill's book has been widely critisized by many for factual innacuracies. Canada Jack ( talk) 22:48, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
Relevant secondary sources found by Location for this discussion
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Books
Newspaper articles
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Above is a proposal for text that should satisfy the secondary source requirement linking O'Neill's allegations with those of various conspiracy authors. I spent hours digging these up and formatting them, so I hope certain people will keep this in mind when they say I am attempting to suppress a particular point of view.
In my opinion, the O'Neill book is in and of itself a sketchy source, but the claims been discussed in enough other sources that were not self-published. Kelin's Praise from a Future Generation: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy and the First Generation Critics of the Warren Report appears to discuss it, too, but I can only get a snippet view in GBooks. The allegations in the 1975 Chicago Tribune article were also discussed in one of the above sources, so we may choose to include that with O'Donnell's denial. There are plenty of source discrediting the veracity of O'Neill's book but I'm not sure it is appropriate to put here per Wikipedia:Avoid thread mode. It's probably best to create an article entitled Man of the House (book), place reviews of the book there, and link it here where appropriate.
There are so many examples of allegations stating that people thought there was a grassy knoll shooter or that people were intimidated to change their testimony that it almost seems silly to single out one and give this much coverage to it. We would certainly have a book longer than Bugliosi's if we gave this much coverage to all of them. Location ( talk) 00:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
No mention of a motive, ANYWHERE. WHAT IS GOING ON?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.164.8.110 ( talk) 01:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
This is a topic which tends to lead to heated disagreements. I would remind everyone involved that the best way to deal with these disagreements is found at WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS. Following the advice on those two pages not only makes things go much more smoothly, it maximizes the chances of getting your way in the end. I'm just saying. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 23:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Recent hire to the Dallas PD, Roscoe White, claimed in his diary that after the shooting of JFK, as he, Tippet, and Oswald were driving to the airfield, Oswald started to question what was going on, so White admits he had to shot Tippet who was not privy to the Conspiracy, as reported by Roscoe's son Ricky White in his diary; moreover his mom worked at Jack Ruby's nightclub. [1]
So far the best explanation for why Tippet was killed. Timing and motive don't make Oswald a logical suspect.
Hovering over the Dallas PD scene is that Mayor Cabell's brother had great motive and many means to kill the President. More specifically, why did the Dallas PD hire Roscoe White as a motorcycle officer in Sept. 1963 whose national security credentials would have obviously be known to the Dallas Chief who hired him; and, no doubt, to the Mayor's brother, who had been fired along with Allen Dulles in 1961 after the 'Bay of Pigs' Event they organized became a total fiasco. Constitutional capers ( talk) 20:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I have removed the following from the "Possible evidence of a cover-up" section again:
Even if RFK believed it was shoddy work, we cannot imply something that the source doesn't state (i.e. that RFK believed there was a cover-up). Location ( talk) 04:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
If we abide by WP:WEIGHT, there is a good argument to include Buyer, Douglass, and especially Thompson due to the amount of material they have presented relevant to various conspiracy theories and how frequently they have been cited in regards to that material. If we abide by WP:WEIGHT, what do have for RFK Jr.? A few sentences in a Charlie Rose interview. Location ( talk) 04:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually, Brandon, you'll see from the edit history of the article that I've done a pretty good job of taking a jumble mess of conspiracy thoughts and placing them in some reasonable order. This particular assertion is incredibly weak as there is no substantial coverage about any particular conspiracy theory... and that is what this article is about. So, since you stuck the material in the section entitled "Role of Oswald", what does RFK Jr. say what RFK thought about Oswald's role in a conspiracy theory? Location ( talk) 13:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
No, he has simply realized that to be credible, the page should follow wikipedia rules. And he, like many others here, are sick and tired of having to explain again and again and again why these rules have to be followed. Rather than just omit conspiracy theories that you don't happen to like... Right. This is what we are up against. The argument about the Tip O'Neill stuff above is a case in point. There was NO "conspiracy theory" at all there, WHICH IS WHAT THE PAGE IS ABOUT, just an account of what some said they heard. As a stand-alone, it is MEANINGLESS. You HAVE to supply a reason for this, along the lines of "author x says this is evidence ignored by the WC pointing to a conspiracy" and the simple fact that we've had this same discussion again and again and again tells us more [personal attack removed] than this mythical band of pro-WC editors trying to "hide" the "truth." Canada Jack ( talk) 20:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The Warren Commission seemed concerned what RFK thought about the assassination. Indeed the article, under the heading Background even states that the Commission "...indicated that Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State; Robert S. McNamara, the Secretary of Defense; C. Douglas Dillon, the Secretary of the Treasury; Robert F. Kennedy, the Attorney General" reached the conclusion on the basis of information available to them that that Oswald acted alone and that no credible evidence supported the contention that he was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the president. You opine that RFK was working from the same evidence that everybody else was. In fact, you don't know that. People in positions of power are often privy to information that others are not, and RFK was after all Attorney General before he was axed by Johnson. On a different subject, Robert F. Kennedy was quoted as saying that LBJ was "mean, bitter, vicious—[an] animal in many ways.... In this example, we see that RFK had information on Johnson that others did not. BrandonTR ( talk) 23:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
Kennedy evidently thought Vietnam was a war of choice, as he told several confidants that he intended to pull out. The Vietnam War was essentially a civil war, with the French having invented the country of S. Vietnam. Most US policy makers fell for the "domino theory" (another French concoction) of why we had to intervene. As it turned out, the domino theory -- the major justification for the war -- turned out to be dead wrong as neither Thailand or Malaysia fell to the Communists. Even Cambodia would would have never come under the power of the Khmer Rouge had Nixon and Kissinger not undermined the government of Prince Sihanouk. Douglas MacArthur -- who had experience fighting in Asia and who is widely regarded as a hawk on military matters -- told Kennedy: "Anyone wanting to commit American ground forces to the mainland of Asia should have his head examined." You almost never see this quote in our sanitized version of history. There's also this:
"Arthur Schlesinger Jr., in his book 'Robert Kennedy and His Times,' documents other episodes showing President Kennedy's determination not to let Vietnam become an American war. One was when Gen. Douglas MacArthur told him it would be foolish to fight again in Asia and that the problem should be solved at the diplomatic table. Later General Taylor said that MacArthur's views made 'a hell of an impression on the President ... so that whenever he'd get this military advice from the Joint Chiefs or from me or anyone else, he'd say, 'Well, now, you gentlemen, you go back and convince General MacArthur, then I'll be convinced.'" --Roger Hilsman, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs under President Kennedy, letter to The New York Times, 20 January 1992 BrandonTR ( talk) 21:35, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
if JFK and RFK had 25,000 special forces people in Vietnam, they seem unlikely to have just decided to pull them out and let the Communists, backed by the Chinese, have another country. JFK was smarting from Cuba, that had been backed by the USSR. To let another country fall to the Commies, this one backed by the Chinese, might well have been intolerable. And the new training role of Special Forces with the resurrected Green Berets in Vietnam, was JFK and RFK's baby. RFK himself probably coined the word "counterinsurgency." So now he's going to give up his counterinsurgents in 1964? I don't think so.
How many fighting ground troops I don't know, but it seems likely the Kennedys would not have given up Vietnam without trying a lot more people and a sea and air blockade, ala Cuba. And run into the same Ho Chi Minh Trail Cambodia problems that Nixon eventually did. But had JFK survived to early 1969 and the end of his second term, that would not have been his problem.
It's worth remembering that before Vietnam, the U.S. hadn't had a Vietnam (unless you count the Bay of Pigs). The US had fought in Korea. Before Korea, the U.S. action that finally drove Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor was cutting off Japan's credit and freezing their assets and trade in July 1941. This provoked by Japan's 1940-41 incursions into... Vietnam. Then called southern French Indochina, and weakened by the French loss to Hitler and their conversion to puppet Vichy and unwilling Japanese allies in the last half of 1940. The Japanese took Saigon in late 1940 and again in July 1941, and that was the U.S. last straw, as it gave Japan bases only 800 miles from the Philippines. So the US had a long history of sticking their necks out with regard to Southeast Asia. JFK was aware that the last time an enemy had taken Saigon, they had gone on to take the Philippines, Malaya, the Dutch Indies, and Guam. JFK had been there for part of that show, himself! So he'd been personal witness to a sort of dominos in that part of the world, featuring the Japanese. Yes, protecting Saigon meant the U.S. was going to ignore the French loss at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. But then, they were the French. ;). Oliver Stone's idea of JFK just tucking his tail in and going home in 1964, is about as fantastic as Stone's vision of a magic bullet. S B H arris 23:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
This material has been included in the section "Role of Oswald", but it says nothing as to what RFK Jr. thought RFK thought what Oswald's role might be. Is there any relevance to this section or are we just trying to get random items into the article? - Location ( talk) 20:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
why cant we have non-conspriacy viewpoint?
so heres mine for consensus...
A non-conspiracy assassination review is probably the final an least theatrical analysis when compared the many cloak & dagger tales of an evil government killing their own good-hearted leader. This less Hollywood-style analysis was shown on a channel 5 documentary broadcast in 2013, where a 'professional' investigator decided to mount a cold case review on the assassination, as was surprised that no one else had done so.
By the programs end it was revealed that a secret-service agent 'accidentally' shot the president with an AR-15 rifle, while returning fire. This explains why kennedy's head was knocked backward, which a bullet shot from behind wouldn't have caused. It also explains why the establishment didn't admit this serious mistake, due to the obvious embarrassment that such a person is hired to protect the president. However it was ironic that his presence, and in a forward car, placed him in this position. The agent was named as William hickey after using CGI simulation trajectory tracing an gunpowder notice reports from witness statements. Though an obvious witness, to prevent perjury he wasn't called to trial, an died of old age 2005. There were many other revelations on other mistakes made by both conspiracy theorists and the official ballistic analysis. [2]
The proper question is not so much was there a conspiracy, but how much conspiracy. It is common knowledge that many documents were kept from public release. Thus there was conspiracy after the fact. I am adding again my contribution to this article and ask that persons kindly refrain from reverting and edit-warring. I am not reverting nor removing what anyone has written. ( EnochBethany ( talk) 22:50, 22 November 2013 (UTC))
I'm proposing the merger of this article into this one. Anyone care to weigh in on where it should go and/or reasons against the merger? -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 18:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, fair enough, and thank you for the analysis, its appreciated. I'm not sure that there's much more that can be added to the Mercer article that is supported by sources. So we're still left with an orphan article. Any suggestions as to where in the Jack Ruby article to add the info? -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 16:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Icarus4 ( talk) 15:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Atomic Energy Commission investigation of John F. Kennedy assassination evidence until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Icarus4 ( talk) 00:14, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I would welcome help with Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean if anyone has any expertise there. An anti-Castro group with links to Guy Bannister. Interesting article but needs an expert eye. Ulcerspar12 ( talk) 20:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
The term "conspiracy theories" was originally circulated in the immediate aftermath of the assassination as a means of distancing anyone who doubted the official narrative from the discussion, and there have been and continue to be ongoing efforts to discredit anyone who expresses such doubts. The term "alternative versions" would be more accurate, since it takes into account the fact that the research done by alternative historians of the JFK assassination, as a whole, is at least as competent and exhaustive as the research advanced in support of the official version. Lestrad ( talk) 06:27, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Instead of me renaming this section or otherwise omitting this, I want to flag that the following paragraph is not what we'd call "physical evidence" per se, that being Tague's bullet wound, his "physical location" (not the same as "physical evidence") and the suggested trajectory from a place other than the TSBD: "Several conspiracy theories posit that at least one shooter was located in the Dal-Tex Building, which is located across the street from the Texas School Book Depository. According to L. Fletcher Prouty, the physical location of James Tague when he was injured by a bullet fragment is not consistent with the trajectory of a missed shot from the Texas School Book Depository, leading Prouty to theorize that Tague was instead wounded by a missed shot from the second floor of the Dal-Tex Building."
Why not fix the name of this section or otherwise adjust this, Brandon? Canada Jack ( talk) 20:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
In response to the earlier suggestion by Sunrise, I cobbled together the following list of people known for their criticism of the lone gunman theory that could be placed in the article similar to what appears in Moon landing conspiracy theories#Conspiracists and their main proposals. Perhaps there are individuals that should be removed from this list or others that should be added, but I'll let whatever discussion follows shape the consensus for that information. I have also not taken the time to summarize each person's views (perhaps Joegoodfriend or BrandonTR would like to assist if they think this is a good idea), and sourcing is incomplete but what I have noted is from what I would consider to be neutral, non-primary sources. Understanding that some think that "conspiracy theorists" is non-neutral and others, myself included, think that "researchers" is non-neutral, I've tried to label the list or section as neutrally as I can. Again, let's discuss to form some sort of consensus. - Location ( talk) 04:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
List of people known for their criticism of the lone gunman theory
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The section titled Possible evidence of a cover-up states:
There appears to be an edit war brewing over the second sentence, so this should probably be discussed here rather than in the edit summaries. Please discuss. Location ( talk) 18:16, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Citing opinions of individuals, no matter how prominent, is not evidence. The section is about "possible evidence" of a cover-up, and the quote from Schweiker is not "evidence" by any definition, except to those in the conspiracy crowd. I have no particular objection either to a section of prominent people who believe there was a conspiracy/cover-up, but unless any of those individuals possess specific knowledge that a conspiracy/cover-up occurred, the section should be prefaced by a note of the "argument from authority" fallacy in case people are misled into thinking opinions somehow reflect fact. Canada Jack ( talk) 17:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)