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A recent article by BRIAN SCIARETTA - Sunday, October 21, 2012, states " [Brooks] has continued growing and is now 6'6.] http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=show&id=9548 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.21.168 ( talk) 17:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
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John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The entry for John Anthony Brooks Jr. begins as such: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
This should instead read: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American footballer who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
The above change should be completed because it is more factually accurate and represents the individual's (read: John A. Brooks Jr.) ethnicity more fully. Being American is entirely different from being German-American. Moreover, "footballer" is distinguished from "soccer player" as it harkens to a fuller representation of the sport as it exists outside the United States. That is, the sport is globally known as football. Changing "footballer" to "soccer" is an act of cultural dilution and "Americanization" of the term.
These changes should be instated immediately, as Mr. Brooks is sure to be a subject of interest for the foreseeable future.
Johncarbone ( talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:OPENPARA we shouldn't have a hyphenated nationality for the subject. I don't see any discussion about it in the article, so we only list the team that he represents at the international level. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 16:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The first sentence in the article contains a grammatical mistake. 107.192.194.74 ( talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result: Both Brooks' German and American nationalities should be referred to in the opening sentence of the article.
Five editors supported "American" and four supported "German-American".
The main argument in favour of "American" was the claim that a consensus exists via WP:FOOTY that only the most recent FIFA nationality of an international player should be mentioned in the opening sentence. However, this claim was also disputed, and no evidence of any such consensus was presented. There does not appear to be any codified rule specific to football. I spot-checked a few relevant articles, and found a mixture of approaches, with some mentioning multiple nationalities, some mentioning multiple nationalities but downplaying one or more (e.g. "a Brazilian-born Spanish footballer"), some not mentioning any nationality, but instead naming countries the person had played for and some only mentioning one FIFA nationality. Through looking at edit histories, I could also see that some editors involved in this discussion have also recently been active in enforcing their preference in the subject-area. Overall, I did not find evidence of consensus through looking at articles. Of course, my survey was not comprehensive.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality was presented as evidence supporting the existence of a local consensus. However, this appears to be a set of notes connected in some way to the guidance set out at WP:MOSFLAG. It relates to the issue of the inclusion of national flags in articles, and not to the contents of article leads, so it is not directly relevant to the question at hand.
I am led to the conclusion that editors who voted based on the belief that there exists a consensus to exclude from article leads nationalities not as defined by FIFA rules are mistaken in this belief. So, reduced weight should be given to those votes.
In favour of "German-American", the main argument was based on WP:OPENPARA. While it is not impermissible to deviate from this guideline, I do not see that any good reason for doing so has been presented in the discussion. It was also argued that, given that Brooks was born in Germany and does not seem to have ever resided outside Germany, it would be odd to simply call him "American" in the opening sentence. I think this is a strong argument.
There was a parallel discussion at WP:BLPN, but I did not feel that this added anything substantive to the discussion here.
Additional comments:
I am not personally keen on "German-American", since it may be mistaken for an ethnicity. Perhaps "German and American" or something like that would be better. Just saying.
It is obviously key to this close that I do not see a pre-existing consensus on the general question. If new evidence is presented about this, I may re-consider the close or re-open it for another closer. I will add though, that there would also be the thorny issue of whether a local consensus can override OPENPARA, which I'm glad not to have had to tackle here, so reversal of the close would not be automatic.
Editors who are unhappy with this close may wish to consider opening an RfC so as to sort out the question of whether specific guidance concerning nationality in the lead of football biographies is a good idea. This close hasn't particularly found that it is or isn't, just that there is not evidence of a consensus about it.
At what point, if at all, should Brooks' ethnicity be mentioned in the lede (i.e. is he German-American, American, or a soccer player who played for America)? The relevant wikipedia policy is WP: OPENPARA. Editors who I know are interested are: Walter Görlitz, Mikemor92, and myself. The reason for asking for comments is because this could very easily turn into an edit war and should be established through consensus which includes non-involved parties. Thanks. DJAMP4444 19:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
And the consensus decision is against you. You are pushing a POV to keep a policy based edit out of a BLP. Only you know why you're doing that. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
That was not the consensus. Several editors changed opinion during the discussion and the BLP discussion. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
This was an inappropriate non-admin closure and does not seem to reflect consensus. Giant Snowman 11:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Unless anyone has new information to present, I'm not going to reconsider the close. Anyone who's dissatisfied with that should post at WP:AN, being as specific as they can about what they think is wrong with the close. Formerip ( talk) 15:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@ Walter Görlitz: @ FormerIP: @ Number 57: @ SW3 5DL: - hello all, I have raised the matter at WP:AN. Giant Snowman 14:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The lede reads: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.”
Instead, it should read: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented both the United States and Germany in international soccer tournaments.”
The original quotation misrepresents Brooks’ national identity. He was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. He grew up in Germany, where he has lived his entire life. He has never lived in the United States; as such, it is an overstatement to say that he is solely American. If anything, he is German of American descent.
An NPR article ( http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/17/322897921/after-his-game-winning-goal-we-ask-who-is-john-brooks) points to the fact that Brooks has a tattoo on both elbows: on the left, a map of Berlin with a star over his birthplace; and on the right, a map of Illinois with a star over Chicago, his father’s hometown. It’s pretty clear that he sees his national identity as both German and American.
In an interview with the Deutsche Bahn Konzern, Brooks noted that he displays both American traits (his name, his love of basketball, and his love of American music) and German traits (his playing style, as he lives in Germany and learned how to play soccer there). The interview is in German – his native language – and can be found at the following address: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwUbTuGn_nc
The original quotation also states that Brooks has “represented the United States national soccer team internationally.” While this is technically true, it would be more accurate to say that he has played for both the United States and Germany at the international level.
The excitement surrounding Brooks’ winning goal in the United States’ match with Ghana on June 16th is entirely understandable, and it may potentially cause Americans to want to claim him as their own. However, this attitude is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates neither the reality of his national background nor the standards of Wikipedia. Alanna1991 ( talk) 04:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Not done There's a discussion above and your opinion is against several editing guidelines:
WP:OPENPARA and
WP:MOSBIO. Feel free to read them.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
06:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Somewhere should include "He is the greatest american since Abraham Lincoln" or at least some mention as many Americans do feel this way thanks. Ibelievethatwewillwin123 ( talk) 16:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Facts are, that Brooks never lived in the USA or America [1]. He was born in Berlin, grew up there and is playing Fußball (soccer) in Berlin, Germany.
Once again Wikipedia claims a person as someone they are not. Wikipedia's claims in the lead that Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player. That, by itself in the lead, is a very misleading and inaccurate description. It disregards his factual life, home and upbringing.
Brooks (f)actually is a German soccer player, now also playing for the USA team in the 2014 worldcup, for which he qualified due to his US father. Therefore he is a GERMAN AND in 2014 AMERICAN soccer player, but he is NOT (only) an AMERICAN soccer player. Wondering about wikipedia's often misleading classifications( 50.173.166.172 ( talk) 17:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC))
@ 50.173.166.172, I got that bit wrong myself, then somebody set me straight. It's the team he's playing for, which is the American team, and that makes him an 'American player.' Get it? Then, farther down is his nationality, which is clearly stated as German-American. SW3 5DL ( talk) 21:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
If this guy really is [generally] referred to as "John Brooks", as is said in the lede, then why isn't this article at "John Brooks (footballer)"? We don't disambiguate people by their middle names, do we? HandsomeFella ( talk) 19:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I believe the standard disambiguation would be "John Brooks (footballer born 1993)". Number 5 7 20:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The last sentence in the international career section is "Brooks is the only U.S. substitute to score a goal in FIFA World Cup play in the U.S. national team's history," and has a citation needed after it. In the article at http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/06/15/16/42/140616-mntvgha-matchday states "Brooks became the first U.S. MNT substitute to score a goal in a FIFA World Cup." There, citation found. Add it.
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The score for the Netherlands should be entered as 2-3 not 2-2. The game was never tied at 2-2. 66.162.38.18 ( talk) 23:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 15:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
John Anthony Brooks →
John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – He is rarely referred to as "John Anthony Brooks"
Joeykai (
talk)
12:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like somebody to update his appearance statistics and goals for Hertha Berlin. He has been listed at 81 appearances and 4 goals since last the beginning of the 2015-16 season and yet has appeared 21 times in the Bundesliga this season with one goal scored. Here is the link: [1]
Beachhouse81 ( talk) 18:09, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
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Probably, the sentence which describes his transfer to Vfl Wolfsburg should be put on the 'Club Career' instead of 'International Career' Glorian WD ( talk) 19:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
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The sentence "The reported €20 million transfer fee is the record highest for an American soccer player." is no longer correct, because this record was subsequently broken by Pulisic's transfer to Chelsea. Change to "The reported €20 million transfer fee was then the record highest for an American soccer player." Njsnyder ( talk) 15:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus ( talk) 05:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
John Brooks (soccer player, born 1993) → John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – per WP:NCSP Joeykai ( talk) 02:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Reporting errors |
A recent article by BRIAN SCIARETTA - Sunday, October 21, 2012, states " [Brooks] has continued growing and is now 6'6.] http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=show&id=9548 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.21.168 ( talk) 17:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The entry for John Anthony Brooks Jr. begins as such: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
This should instead read: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American footballer who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."
The above change should be completed because it is more factually accurate and represents the individual's (read: John A. Brooks Jr.) ethnicity more fully. Being American is entirely different from being German-American. Moreover, "footballer" is distinguished from "soccer player" as it harkens to a fuller representation of the sport as it exists outside the United States. That is, the sport is globally known as football. Changing "footballer" to "soccer" is an act of cultural dilution and "Americanization" of the term.
These changes should be instated immediately, as Mr. Brooks is sure to be a subject of interest for the foreseeable future.
Johncarbone ( talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:OPENPARA we shouldn't have a hyphenated nationality for the subject. I don't see any discussion about it in the article, so we only list the team that he represents at the international level. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 16:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The first sentence in the article contains a grammatical mistake. 107.192.194.74 ( talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Result: Both Brooks' German and American nationalities should be referred to in the opening sentence of the article.
Five editors supported "American" and four supported "German-American".
The main argument in favour of "American" was the claim that a consensus exists via WP:FOOTY that only the most recent FIFA nationality of an international player should be mentioned in the opening sentence. However, this claim was also disputed, and no evidence of any such consensus was presented. There does not appear to be any codified rule specific to football. I spot-checked a few relevant articles, and found a mixture of approaches, with some mentioning multiple nationalities, some mentioning multiple nationalities but downplaying one or more (e.g. "a Brazilian-born Spanish footballer"), some not mentioning any nationality, but instead naming countries the person had played for and some only mentioning one FIFA nationality. Through looking at edit histories, I could also see that some editors involved in this discussion have also recently been active in enforcing their preference in the subject-area. Overall, I did not find evidence of consensus through looking at articles. Of course, my survey was not comprehensive.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality was presented as evidence supporting the existence of a local consensus. However, this appears to be a set of notes connected in some way to the guidance set out at WP:MOSFLAG. It relates to the issue of the inclusion of national flags in articles, and not to the contents of article leads, so it is not directly relevant to the question at hand.
I am led to the conclusion that editors who voted based on the belief that there exists a consensus to exclude from article leads nationalities not as defined by FIFA rules are mistaken in this belief. So, reduced weight should be given to those votes.
In favour of "German-American", the main argument was based on WP:OPENPARA. While it is not impermissible to deviate from this guideline, I do not see that any good reason for doing so has been presented in the discussion. It was also argued that, given that Brooks was born in Germany and does not seem to have ever resided outside Germany, it would be odd to simply call him "American" in the opening sentence. I think this is a strong argument.
There was a parallel discussion at WP:BLPN, but I did not feel that this added anything substantive to the discussion here.
Additional comments:
I am not personally keen on "German-American", since it may be mistaken for an ethnicity. Perhaps "German and American" or something like that would be better. Just saying.
It is obviously key to this close that I do not see a pre-existing consensus on the general question. If new evidence is presented about this, I may re-consider the close or re-open it for another closer. I will add though, that there would also be the thorny issue of whether a local consensus can override OPENPARA, which I'm glad not to have had to tackle here, so reversal of the close would not be automatic.
Editors who are unhappy with this close may wish to consider opening an RfC so as to sort out the question of whether specific guidance concerning nationality in the lead of football biographies is a good idea. This close hasn't particularly found that it is or isn't, just that there is not evidence of a consensus about it.
At what point, if at all, should Brooks' ethnicity be mentioned in the lede (i.e. is he German-American, American, or a soccer player who played for America)? The relevant wikipedia policy is WP: OPENPARA. Editors who I know are interested are: Walter Görlitz, Mikemor92, and myself. The reason for asking for comments is because this could very easily turn into an edit war and should be established through consensus which includes non-involved parties. Thanks. DJAMP4444 19:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
And the consensus decision is against you. You are pushing a POV to keep a policy based edit out of a BLP. Only you know why you're doing that. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
That was not the consensus. Several editors changed opinion during the discussion and the BLP discussion. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
This was an inappropriate non-admin closure and does not seem to reflect consensus. Giant Snowman 11:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Unless anyone has new information to present, I'm not going to reconsider the close. Anyone who's dissatisfied with that should post at WP:AN, being as specific as they can about what they think is wrong with the close. Formerip ( talk) 15:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@ Walter Görlitz: @ FormerIP: @ Number 57: @ SW3 5DL: - hello all, I have raised the matter at WP:AN. Giant Snowman 14:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The lede reads: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.”
Instead, it should read: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented both the United States and Germany in international soccer tournaments.”
The original quotation misrepresents Brooks’ national identity. He was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. He grew up in Germany, where he has lived his entire life. He has never lived in the United States; as such, it is an overstatement to say that he is solely American. If anything, he is German of American descent.
An NPR article ( http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/17/322897921/after-his-game-winning-goal-we-ask-who-is-john-brooks) points to the fact that Brooks has a tattoo on both elbows: on the left, a map of Berlin with a star over his birthplace; and on the right, a map of Illinois with a star over Chicago, his father’s hometown. It’s pretty clear that he sees his national identity as both German and American.
In an interview with the Deutsche Bahn Konzern, Brooks noted that he displays both American traits (his name, his love of basketball, and his love of American music) and German traits (his playing style, as he lives in Germany and learned how to play soccer there). The interview is in German – his native language – and can be found at the following address: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwUbTuGn_nc
The original quotation also states that Brooks has “represented the United States national soccer team internationally.” While this is technically true, it would be more accurate to say that he has played for both the United States and Germany at the international level.
The excitement surrounding Brooks’ winning goal in the United States’ match with Ghana on June 16th is entirely understandable, and it may potentially cause Americans to want to claim him as their own. However, this attitude is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates neither the reality of his national background nor the standards of Wikipedia. Alanna1991 ( talk) 04:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Not done There's a discussion above and your opinion is against several editing guidelines:
WP:OPENPARA and
WP:MOSBIO. Feel free to read them.
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
06:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Somewhere should include "He is the greatest american since Abraham Lincoln" or at least some mention as many Americans do feel this way thanks. Ibelievethatwewillwin123 ( talk) 16:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Facts are, that Brooks never lived in the USA or America [1]. He was born in Berlin, grew up there and is playing Fußball (soccer) in Berlin, Germany.
Once again Wikipedia claims a person as someone they are not. Wikipedia's claims in the lead that Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player. That, by itself in the lead, is a very misleading and inaccurate description. It disregards his factual life, home and upbringing.
Brooks (f)actually is a German soccer player, now also playing for the USA team in the 2014 worldcup, for which he qualified due to his US father. Therefore he is a GERMAN AND in 2014 AMERICAN soccer player, but he is NOT (only) an AMERICAN soccer player. Wondering about wikipedia's often misleading classifications( 50.173.166.172 ( talk) 17:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC))
@ 50.173.166.172, I got that bit wrong myself, then somebody set me straight. It's the team he's playing for, which is the American team, and that makes him an 'American player.' Get it? Then, farther down is his nationality, which is clearly stated as German-American. SW3 5DL ( talk) 21:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
If this guy really is [generally] referred to as "John Brooks", as is said in the lede, then why isn't this article at "John Brooks (footballer)"? We don't disambiguate people by their middle names, do we? HandsomeFella ( talk) 19:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I believe the standard disambiguation would be "John Brooks (footballer born 1993)". Number 5 7 20:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The last sentence in the international career section is "Brooks is the only U.S. substitute to score a goal in FIFA World Cup play in the U.S. national team's history," and has a citation needed after it. In the article at http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/06/15/16/42/140616-mntvgha-matchday states "Brooks became the first U.S. MNT substitute to score a goal in a FIFA World Cup." There, citation found. Add it.
![]() | This
edit request to
John Anthony Brooks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The score for the Netherlands should be entered as 2-3 not 2-2. The game was never tied at 2-2. 66.162.38.18 ( talk) 23:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 15:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
John Anthony Brooks →
John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – He is rarely referred to as "John Anthony Brooks"
Joeykai (
talk)
12:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like somebody to update his appearance statistics and goals for Hertha Berlin. He has been listed at 81 appearances and 4 goals since last the beginning of the 2015-16 season and yet has appeared 21 times in the Bundesliga this season with one goal scored. Here is the link: [1]
Beachhouse81 ( talk) 18:09, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
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Probably, the sentence which describes his transfer to Vfl Wolfsburg should be put on the 'Club Career' instead of 'International Career' Glorian WD ( talk) 19:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
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The sentence "The reported €20 million transfer fee is the record highest for an American soccer player." is no longer correct, because this record was subsequently broken by Pulisic's transfer to Chelsea. Change to "The reported €20 million transfer fee was then the record highest for an American soccer player." Njsnyder ( talk) 15:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus ( talk) 05:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
John Brooks (soccer player, born 1993) → John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – per WP:NCSP Joeykai ( talk) 02:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)