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Are we only accepting academically-published writings as sources in this article? There's been increased interest from non-academics lately, and they've written stuff that I can't find in any papers (not that I'm particularly good at using JSTOR). The article says that “Modern interest in Eleanor Rykener has not been confined to academia”, but only really discusses the prevailing academic view formed… fifty years ago? If we can't even agree to fix the remaining third-person personal pronouns outside quotes (nor even replace them with "they"), we can at least consider reducing the bias somewhat.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate in making such edits to the article, but as it was featured I'm not sure of the expected behaviour. Adding in information from nonacademics, even with a really high bar for inclusion, would end up as a significant change to the content of the article. Judging by WP:POVFORK, I'm guessing that we shouldn't have a separate article for "academic consensus on" v.s. "views outside academia on"… but I don't know to what extent (potentially) drastic edits are permitted to featured articles. wizzwizz4 ( talk) 21:28, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
academia isn't good at queer historycitation needed No blogs today, thank you. serial # 18:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
In modern times some scholars insist that, despite the restoration of the pronouns, they represent "an emotionless and elegant re-imagining of Platonic dialogue, whereby erotic poetry was seen as an expression of refined sensibilities".(My JSTOR isn't strong enough to find proper academic citations to back up my assertions, so Wikipedia excerpts backed by published articles and books will have to do.) Is this enough, or should I find direct quotes from academics who've noticed this systematic problem within academia? (A problem which is, I'll note, getting better; credit where credit's due.)
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, but what does it mean to be an expert on a single historical document? (Suitable definitions should class people like me as inexpert, but some others as expert.) That's what I'm asking about, here. A lot of people have a lot to say about Eleanor, but only some people's equally-(un)substantiated views are to be accepted.
in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (Whilst this is clearly a case where everyone should make an exception to the rule, that's what they all say.) Even ignoring that, my proposed solution is worse than useless. The ratchet of academia turns; I'll wait for it. wizzwizz4 ( talk) 23:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm still not sure why we can't use singular "they" (and declensions) to replace the two(?) unquoted occurrences of "he" (or declensions). I'm trying not to be WP:ICANTHEARYOU about this, but all I've taken away from the previous discussions is that singular they is somehow "ungrammatical" – despite it being in common use, including in other Wikipedia articles.
Given that the gender of the article's subject is unknown / disputed, surely WP:NPOV dictates we shouldn't editorialise here? (Unless you think that some of the stances are revisionism and should therefore be excluded, in which case I don't know which policies would apply.) wizzwizz4 ( talk) 13:51, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi @ Serial Number 54129:! I see you object to how this article has been, for some time now, been being rewritten to avoid pronouns based on previous discussion. If you would like to seek consensus for using masculine pronouns, please do so! Cheers, -sche ( talk) 08:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I've moved the unqualified description of Rykener as a trans woman out of the WP:LEADSENTENCE, and into a new paragraph in the lead, and modified the wording to be less categorical. This shouldn't be stated categorically in Wikipedia's voice anywhere in the article, and especially not in the lead. Currently, I've left it as indirect attribution, following the model in the final sentence of the lead at Albert Cashier, but perhaps this should be further tightened by using intext attribution. Adding -sche. Mathglot ( talk) 00:50, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.wizzwizz4 ( talk) 15:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Naming someone by both their (preferred) name and their deadname, especially in the title, does contravene against MOS:DEADNAME, so is there any better way to title this article or refer to the subject in question? Casspedia ( talk) 15:57, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Serial Number 54129 reverted my recent move as it was undiscussed. My apologies in not thinking it would be an issue and checking in here. I was trying to follow manual of style guidance. So let's discuss.
As I stated in my edit summary at the time, the primary researcher (Karras) who brought about the contemporary understanding of this person has said that we should consider them a transgender person. As such I attempted to rename the article to reflect their name. Per MOS:GENDERID, MOS:GIDINFO.
I'll add, upon reflection, that the MOS also states, "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources." Emphasis mine. Given that the researcher’s comments are recent (in 2016) and after a cursory search, I am unable to find any more recent reliable sources to counter this, I recommend we rename the article.
In fact in my quick search a 2019 essay from a researcher at The University of Iowa also reaffirms that Rykener was transgender and should be "understood as a transgender woman". So a plus one in that column. :)
For the curious, I learned about this after listening to the Vagina Museum's Apr 28, 2021 podcast episode where the issue is discussed ( transcript). Ckoerner ( talk) 00:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification. Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification. Basically, I'm afraid this only applies to BLPs. As the effective author of this article, I made sure to take into account the most recent scholarly research—you'll note that Karras is probably the single most used source in the article. Cheers, ——Serial 01:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification.
Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification.Reading the article, footnote 1. Using the translation as I'm not sure many of us speak Latin,
John Rykener, calling [himself] Eleanor(emphasis mine). If Rykener referred to themselves as Elanor in an official interrogation, then that's pretty strongly a self-identification for the purposes of GENDERID.
Basically, I'm afraid this only applies to BLPs.That is not true. While there are certainly provisions within the guideline that only apply to the living, chiefly the second and third paragraph, the remainder of it applies to any biography. This broader interpretation of the guideline was affirmed within the close of a May/June 2023 RfC of the guideline
there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion(emphasis mine).
Eleanor Rykener, born John Rykener, was a 14th-century...at the start of the lead, keeping the footnote after mention of Rykener's former name. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 01:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Eleanor Rykener, born John Rykener, was a 14th-century...seems to be a good way to handle this, I agree. Jessamyn ( my talk page) 00:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
John/Eleanor Rykener article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | John/Eleanor Rykener is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 10, 2019. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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Are we only accepting academically-published writings as sources in this article? There's been increased interest from non-academics lately, and they've written stuff that I can't find in any papers (not that I'm particularly good at using JSTOR). The article says that “Modern interest in Eleanor Rykener has not been confined to academia”, but only really discusses the prevailing academic view formed… fifty years ago? If we can't even agree to fix the remaining third-person personal pronouns outside quotes (nor even replace them with "they"), we can at least consider reducing the bias somewhat.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate in making such edits to the article, but as it was featured I'm not sure of the expected behaviour. Adding in information from nonacademics, even with a really high bar for inclusion, would end up as a significant change to the content of the article. Judging by WP:POVFORK, I'm guessing that we shouldn't have a separate article for "academic consensus on" v.s. "views outside academia on"… but I don't know to what extent (potentially) drastic edits are permitted to featured articles. wizzwizz4 ( talk) 21:28, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
academia isn't good at queer historycitation needed No blogs today, thank you. serial # 18:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
In modern times some scholars insist that, despite the restoration of the pronouns, they represent "an emotionless and elegant re-imagining of Platonic dialogue, whereby erotic poetry was seen as an expression of refined sensibilities".(My JSTOR isn't strong enough to find proper academic citations to back up my assertions, so Wikipedia excerpts backed by published articles and books will have to do.) Is this enough, or should I find direct quotes from academics who've noticed this systematic problem within academia? (A problem which is, I'll note, getting better; credit where credit's due.)
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, but what does it mean to be an expert on a single historical document? (Suitable definitions should class people like me as inexpert, but some others as expert.) That's what I'm asking about, here. A lot of people have a lot to say about Eleanor, but only some people's equally-(un)substantiated views are to be accepted.
in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (Whilst this is clearly a case where everyone should make an exception to the rule, that's what they all say.) Even ignoring that, my proposed solution is worse than useless. The ratchet of academia turns; I'll wait for it. wizzwizz4 ( talk) 23:16, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm still not sure why we can't use singular "they" (and declensions) to replace the two(?) unquoted occurrences of "he" (or declensions). I'm trying not to be WP:ICANTHEARYOU about this, but all I've taken away from the previous discussions is that singular they is somehow "ungrammatical" – despite it being in common use, including in other Wikipedia articles.
Given that the gender of the article's subject is unknown / disputed, surely WP:NPOV dictates we shouldn't editorialise here? (Unless you think that some of the stances are revisionism and should therefore be excluded, in which case I don't know which policies would apply.) wizzwizz4 ( talk) 13:51, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi @ Serial Number 54129:! I see you object to how this article has been, for some time now, been being rewritten to avoid pronouns based on previous discussion. If you would like to seek consensus for using masculine pronouns, please do so! Cheers, -sche ( talk) 08:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I've moved the unqualified description of Rykener as a trans woman out of the WP:LEADSENTENCE, and into a new paragraph in the lead, and modified the wording to be less categorical. This shouldn't be stated categorically in Wikipedia's voice anywhere in the article, and especially not in the lead. Currently, I've left it as indirect attribution, following the model in the final sentence of the lead at Albert Cashier, but perhaps this should be further tightened by using intext attribution. Adding -sche. Mathglot ( talk) 00:50, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.wizzwizz4 ( talk) 15:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Naming someone by both their (preferred) name and their deadname, especially in the title, does contravene against MOS:DEADNAME, so is there any better way to title this article or refer to the subject in question? Casspedia ( talk) 15:57, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Serial Number 54129 reverted my recent move as it was undiscussed. My apologies in not thinking it would be an issue and checking in here. I was trying to follow manual of style guidance. So let's discuss.
As I stated in my edit summary at the time, the primary researcher (Karras) who brought about the contemporary understanding of this person has said that we should consider them a transgender person. As such I attempted to rename the article to reflect their name. Per MOS:GENDERID, MOS:GIDINFO.
I'll add, upon reflection, that the MOS also states, "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources." Emphasis mine. Given that the researcher’s comments are recent (in 2016) and after a cursory search, I am unable to find any more recent reliable sources to counter this, I recommend we rename the article.
In fact in my quick search a 2019 essay from a researcher at The University of Iowa also reaffirms that Rykener was transgender and should be "understood as a transgender woman". So a plus one in that column. :)
For the curious, I learned about this after listening to the Vagina Museum's Apr 28, 2021 podcast episode where the issue is discussed ( transcript). Ckoerner ( talk) 00:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification. Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification. Basically, I'm afraid this only applies to BLPs. As the effective author of this article, I made sure to take into account the most recent scholarly research—you'll note that Karras is probably the single most used source in the article. Cheers, ——Serial 01:09, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification.
Please point to where J/ER or E/JR made this self-identification.Reading the article, footnote 1. Using the translation as I'm not sure many of us speak Latin,
John Rykener, calling [himself] Eleanor(emphasis mine). If Rykener referred to themselves as Elanor in an official interrogation, then that's pretty strongly a self-identification for the purposes of GENDERID.
Basically, I'm afraid this only applies to BLPs.That is not true. While there are certainly provisions within the guideline that only apply to the living, chiefly the second and third paragraph, the remainder of it applies to any biography. This broader interpretation of the guideline was affirmed within the close of a May/June 2023 RfC of the guideline
there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion(emphasis mine).
Eleanor Rykener, born John Rykener, was a 14th-century...at the start of the lead, keeping the footnote after mention of Rykener's former name. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 01:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Eleanor Rykener, born John Rykener, was a 14th-century...seems to be a good way to handle this, I agree. Jessamyn ( my talk page) 00:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)