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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Someone has just supplied a citation which was "required" for the sequence of movements in the English suites -- but this (like other such "citations" here) is a reference to a recording which lists the movements. This seems quite absurd to me: the sequence of movements can be checked directly by looking at the score, to which there are several links at the end of the article. I cannot see that mentioning any particular recording is any help at all. Am I missing something? I understand the need for verifiability, but some things are self-verifiable, and extraneous references just clutter up the text. Imaginatorium ( talk) 14:05, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Your article says J. S. Bach was born March 31st, 1685. According to all other sources including biography.com, and everything else I have heard it was March 21st. The churches in Ann Arbor when I was in college in 1985 had a birthday concert on 1985. So either you are wrong or everyone else is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 17:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, but then George Washington's birthday should be like March 4. And when I looked up Julian calendar it shows the dates going from Sep 2, 1752 to Sep 14, 1752 which is 2 days later (i.e., an additional 11 days more than the 1 day it should be). So why Mar 31 instead of April 1? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 18:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
But where he was was Germany and it was before adoption of the calendar. But this article just furthers my point that Wikipedia is very unreliable and most of the writers have their heads stuck in places where it is too dark to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 11:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Bach's birthdate is noted in Gregorian rather than what countless sources use, i.,e. March 21. The original German wiki notes it as March 21. Having done Bach research for a good many years, this is the first time I've seen the Gregorian date of March 31. Looking at Bach's contemporaries, the old style date is maintained. Why has this revision been made? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.175 ( talk) 21:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Citing the NS date first is misleading, pedantic and punctilious. This entry on Bach is unique in the entire body of secondary literature in music history (including contemporary scholarship) in drawing unnecessary attention to the "great controversy" of the very gradual adoption of the Gregorian (to the XX century in Russia). Each and every student who is asked to cite the birthdate of Bach will be given censure. Anyone who knows Bach will say "He was born on March 21, 1685." To expect ordinary music students to take the OS/NS differences into consideration is, of course, a misguided project. As a service, this date should be changed. Drawing attention to calendarism has nothing to do with the fact base on which we rely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.20.234.131 ( talk) 00:55, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Also, I was reading about the calculation of Orthodox and, for lack of a better word, Unorthodox Easter. Orthodox use the calendar that's older. The article coincidentally mentions March 21st because that is the considered date of the equinox, but this article ( http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7050) states that old style March 21 is new style April 3, not March 31. if correct, this article should say Bach was born on April 3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 12:08, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
They censored a valid comment from me they didn't like. Wikipedia has a habbit of doing that to people they disagree with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 12:19, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
News of a petition, including the signatures of Günter Blobel and J. M. Coetzee, to save Bach's house, which is currently under a car park: [1]! Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
We've had a couple of reverts with regard to the Category:18th-century classical composers. If you view the category you'll see that they're all composers of music from the Classical period (as opposed to Baroque or Romantic), like Mozart. It doesn't mean composers of classical music broadly defined -- that wouldn't even make sense, since all composers of the 18th century composed that kind of music; none of them wrote jazz or hip-hop. Can we get a consensus on this? — Wahoofive ( talk) 22:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, those guys don't belong there either. There's really no point in having a category of all 18th-century composers. I was afraid no one would see it if I brought it up on the category talk page, though, so I thought I'd start here. — Wahoofive ( talk) 23:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the problem is that the category contains "18th century" in the name, which is redundant at best, and uselessly exclusionary at worst (Beethoven's not a classical composer?). Where's a better place to address this? — Wahoofive ( talk) 00:01, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Or maybe the category is just redundant with List of Classical era composers. — Wahoofive ( talk) 00:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to group alternative versions of Bach's works (very incomplete list) together under the wholly inappropriate banner of "Easy Listening" versions. Neither Wendy Carlos or Jacques Loussier are bracketed in these genre definitions either in life or on Wikipedia's other pages. Carlos is an electronic pioneer who is fundamental to the history of Electronic Music and Loussier is a highly respected Jazz pianist who has a major career spanning the latter half of the twentieth century and beyond. "Easy Listening" as used in this otherwise fine article appears to be a form of slur or the ignorance of the writer to the other forms of music available in the current time. Putting these fine artists together and tagging them with the "Easy Listening" badge is as wantonly wrong as lumping Debussy together with Palestrina and tagging them "Old Skool Classical Stuff". Subject to no objections I would like to rewrite the paragraph in question, expanding the article to show the effect that Bach had on contemporary musicians outside the formal so-called "Classical" music arena, rather than simply the effect these artists had on the "popularity of Bach". I'll start my changes in a week from now if there are no objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humbled By The Knowledge Of Others ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm adding a mention of this feast day in this article's legacy section, in order to include the Episcopal and Lutheran musicians' memorial on today's list of Holidays and Observances. Lutherans celebrate Bach, Handel and Schutz on the anniversary of Bach's death, and Epicopalians substitute Purcell for Schutz. I'm mentioning the reason here, because all the wikipedia articles for the other musicians mention the feast day. From this talk page, it seems that one or more editors may prefer the article as it is (and don't have the time to track down if/when a previous mention/s was/were removed, much less try to upgrade the status of this article, which seems on a downward trend). Jweaver28 ( talk) 11:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
"Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg concertos, the Mass in B minor, The Well-Tempered Clavier, two Passions, keyboard works, and more than 300 cantatas, of which nearly 100 cantatas have been lost to posterity.[2]"
Ahum. We're pretty sure that some cantatas have been lost (who knows how many were stored in the Weimar castle that burned down?). But to claim the number as "nearly 100" lacks evidence. Ref 2 is to a solid, well-written piece in the New York Review of Books last February by Gerge Stauffer. He's nice about Gardiner's book, but in the end is very critical about the stretches of the imagination—something that struck me in parts of Gardiner's BBC doco on Bach from a year or two ago. Tellingly, nowhere in the referenced review does the "nearly 100" claim appear; and if it's in Gardiner's book (which I haven't yet read), that should be referenced, with page number.
So I've a mind to remove that clause from the lead. What do people think? Tony (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
"The obituary stated that Bach composed five annual cycles, making a total of approximately three hundred cantatas. Only two hundred or so survive." Imaginatorium ( talk) 16:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
According to Spitta's 3-volume biography of Bach, as Cantor of the Thomasschule, 1723-1750, he had responsibility for music in the two main churches, the St. Nicholas Church or Nikolaikirche, and the St. Thomas Church. The article up to today had instead of the St. Thomas Church the " Paulinerkirche" which was the University Church. The WP article on the Paulinerkirche says Bach was Music director there but only for 1723-1725. It seems that Bach actually had worse relations overall with the University than predecessor Kuhnau had had. Anyhow for main responsibilities I am about to change Paulinerkirche to St. Thomas Church and put in a reference to Spitta. Marlindale ( talk) 20:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I looked in Spitta's index for three churches, Thomaskirche, Nikolaikirche, and the third which WP articles (on Bach and itself) call(ed) Paulinerkirche but (the translators of) Spitta call "University Church." What I found in Spitta is about the organs of each church. In vol. II, pp. 281-291. Starting on p. 281, "The organs of the two principal churches [I believe this means Thomaskirche and Nikolaikirche} which, it is true, Bach in his capacity as Cantor was not required to play upon.... were old and worn out. There were two in the Thomaskirche." The larger had been renovated in 1721, with addition of (p. 282) 400 new pipes and mixture stops, "under the direction of Johann Scheibe," co-supervised by Bach and Görner, organist of the University Church. A lot of details of the organ are given. p. 283. "The smaller of the two organs in the Thomaskirche was the older," which despite repairs as late as 1727 "was of very little use, and in 1740 Scheibe had to take it ... away."
P. 286, "The Nikolaikirche contained an organ dating from ... 1597-1598," last repaired in 1692 before Bach's time, and early in his time, 1725, by Scheibe. "In both the Thomaskirche and Nikolaikirche the organs were tuned to 'chorus' pitch."
P. 287 "In contrast to these old organs, which were of only moderate capacity, and liable to get out of order frequently, there had been in the University church since ... 1716 an organ which fulfilled the highest expectations, and which Bach must have chiefly employed when he played for his own pleasure or before other people." This suggests use of it was not part of his work as Cantor, unless perhaps in 1723-1725? Bach himself had been consulted, as a known leading organist, about this new organ and came from Köthen in 1716 to give his written opinion, which Spitta quotes on pp. 288-290. (Then Spitta goes into generalities about use of the organ in Lutheran services of the time: preludes, postludes) Marlindale ( talk) 23:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
This edit removed the sentence: The final work Bach completed was a chorale prelude for organ, entitled Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit (Before thy throne I now appear, BWV 668a) which he dictated to his son-in-law, Johann Christoph Altnickol, from his deathbed. When the notes on the three staves of the final cadence are counted and mapped onto the Roman alphabet, the initials "JSB" are found.(Geiringer (1966), p. 256) with the edit summary "See essay "The Deathbed Chorale: Exposing a Myth" in Wolff (1991), p. 282". Prima facie, this seems to be a reliably sourced claim, based on Johann Nikolaus Forkel writings. It should only be removed if the source doesn't support it. If it does, I think it would be more helpful to rephrase and refute the passage, e.g. Based on Johann Nikolaus Forkel's biography of Bach from 1802, it has been a long-held myth that Bach's final work was a chorale prelude ... The notes of the final cadence can supposedly be mapped to form the initials "JSB".(Geiringer (1966), p. 256) This account has since been refuted.("The Deathbed Chorale: Exposing a Myth" in Wolff (1991), p. 282). -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 06:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Buxtehude ( talk) 14:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
This
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[Add to Bibliography titles] Pirro, André (1907. English translation by Joe Armstrong 2014). The Aesthetic of Johann Sebastian Bach. New York: Rowman and Littlfield. ISBN978-1-4422-3290-7. Bostonflute ( talk) 22:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Some of his most well-known works, such as Toccata & Fugue, "Air", and "Jesu...Joy" are hardly mentioned or omitted. A music sample of each would be nice. -- 2605:E000:8645:2B00:B9E3:BE39:C1C1:985 ( talk) 04:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Isn't his name also frequently pronounced as "back" in English? Various puns presuppose such a pronunciation (just search the web for "hunchbach" or "Nickelbach", for example). Even PDQ Bach seems to be based on it ("pretty damn quick back"). -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 05:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
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Add some info about WMG, they own Bach's music - warner music group
46.109.65.175 ( talk) 16:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Do we really need this here? Seems odd to me. No one ever heard of the critic. 155.213.224.59 ( talk) 16:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
This is a strange heading in a biography article, listing the works in the supposed order of duration. How about Magnificat, Passions, oratorios? A bit of development, from the relatively early Magnificat 1723, St John Passion 1724, Easter Oratorio 1725, St Matthew Passion 1727, Christmas Oratorio 1734, to the Ascension Oratorio 1735. - Or group differently: Passions and oratorios vs. Church music in Latin? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Anybody interested in Bach and related biographies and musical groups please help expand and start the missing entries from the Bach Cantatas website at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music/Missing articles:Bach Cantatas site.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
It's disappointing to see gender unnecessarily elevated to inform categories. Why is this distinction being made? Tony (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
For a few reasons I think this topic does not belong in the Lead. It seems not relevant to the essence of Bach as a composer. There is a section about the death. The lead has a statement as fact, "modern historians believe" the death was caused by a combination of pneumonia and stroke. In the section, this is called speculation. I think we should not speculate about an event over 250 years ago. Spitta's biography, vol. 3, p. 274, gives some details. Spitta confirms that Bach had "apoplexy", a stroke. He does not mention any lung disease. He confirms a statement attributed to a contemporary newspaper that "Medical treatment associated with the [failed eye] operation had such bad effects that his health, hitherto unfailing, was severely shaken" and he was left totally blind. Medical sources confirm that stroke is often associated with high fever (half of hospitalized stroke cases) and that might have led to the pneumonia speculation? What I propose to do in short is to remove any details of Bach's death (other than the date) from the Lead, and revise the section, referring to Spitta as indicated, Marlindale ( talk) 03:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Apologies if this has been dealt with before, but the article seems light on Bach's actual relationship with the religious music he created. Sources agree that the Lutheran Church was far more than a generous client, he remained a deeply committed orthodox Lutheran at a time when new ways of worship were starting to prevail. Rumiton ( talk) 23:32, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from Spitta and from the article itself, Leipzig period, this position, granted in 1736, was more or less an honorary one, a "title and style," far from a full-time position. Spitta says Bach visited Dresden only four times between 1723 and his death in 1750, but his main position remained in Leipzig. The article says that by getting this honor, Bach hoped to gain leverage with the Leipzig authorities. I think it is too complicated to explain this in the Lead, where as now stated it gives a misleading impression, so I propose to delete it from there, while possibly supplementing the text about it in the Leipzig period with material from Spitta. Marlindale ( talk) 19:24, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
It seemed rather a drastic action, but as I did not have any reason myself to revert any of it, I did not. Marlindale ( talk) 17:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be some misunderstanding in this article about German grammar when referring to the "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". "Mizlerischer" is an adjective and subject to declination in German; for detail, see e.g. wikt:lustig#Declension. The salient bit is that the nominative in strong declension (without article) or in mixed declension (with indefinite article) is "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". The form "Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" only occurs in genitive, dative and accusative cases (except singular dative where it's "Mizlerischerem"). The confusion probably arose from reading citations in German of the form "… im Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" or in prose "Gründung des Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" – those are declensions (dative, genitive). Please restore the nominative "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 06:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Bach died in 1750, and systematic publication of his music by the Bach-Gesellschaft began about 1850. In the intervening century some fraction of Bach's music is thought to have been lost including some 100 cantatas and a St. Mark Passion. For the music preserved, who preserved it? CPE Bach, JSB's second son, was the last of his 11 sons to die, in 1788. Johann Christian B., the last born, died earlier, in 1782, and also probably had not carriied many of his father's manuscripts to England. Do the Bach-Gesellschaft volumes, 1850-1900, give indications of where the works had been located? Marlindale ( talk) 03:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
JSB had I believe three: Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Johann Christian Bach, and Wilhelm Friedemann Bach.. They might be mentioned in the Lead and/or under Legacy? The statement "Bach is the father, we are the children" was made about CPE Bach by Haydn or Mozart according to different sources I've seen? JC Bach contributed to the origin of the classical "galant" style of Haydn and Mozart I think.. As of now CPE is mentioned as co-author of an obituary of JSB, not highlighted that I saw. Various details need checking, but does the concept seem reasonable? Marlindale ( talk) 03:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
There was at least one more composer son, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, making four. This one and WF Bach might not be mentioned in the Lead? The statement about CPE Bach being the father was made by Mozart to Gottfried van Swieten according to a few sources. One in The Guardian said in the second half of the 18th cent., the name "Bach" in musical circles was almost entirely used about CPE not JSB. Marlindale ( talk) 03:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Google for `Bach's sons' gave a header Johann Sebastian Bach > sons and a listing of 11 of them. The four composer sons mentioned above are the first four sons on the list. None of the other sons seems to have composed. . JC Bach was the 11th and youngest son. Marlindale ( talk) 04:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst Bach is said to be "the only grandson of JSB 'to have gained fame as a composer" Marlindale ( talk) 00:17, 3 July 2015 (UTC) In the WP article on him as of now there is a discography with just one recording. Searching a compendious source (original research) I was unable to find any (other) recordings.
CPE Bach is now mentioned in the Lead and JC Bach in the Leipzig period when he was born. I have no current plan to mention the other two son composers WF and JCF Bach, or the grandson WFE, as they seem less distinguished than CPE and JC. Marlindale ( talk) 03:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought I mentioned the two sons in proportion to their importance as composers in their times, which really was not equal between the sons, and that these two were more important than Wilhelm Friedemann or JCF. So I don't see how this was "inconsistent." Buxtehude reverted the mentions, Of course I'm disappointed, but it would not be right for me to revert.. Marlindale ( talk) 04:15, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
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Please add ...
... as this is the largest German and largest international Bach website created by a family member of this family of musicians: largest collections of tributes, genealogy, stamps, Bach places and much more.
BachUeberBach ( talk) 08:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi Cannolis, all for us "is new" as we are new in the community, both Wiki and Bach: this is our apology if the answer might be too long. We didn't expect your answer so fast and didn't check and discover your answer out until today. Sorry. Thanks for requesting more proof. BachUeberBach is the largest German and International Bach website and in many themes there is way more information beyond Wikipedia. This website is the new reference in Bach genealogy all over the world. Same with stamps, tributes, Bach places, societies, choirs, orchestras and many more themes. Many Bach institutions worldwide link to it. We correspond with Bach Institutions like Bach archive, Bach House in Eisenach, St. Thomas Church, Officials in Arnstadt, Wechmar and Dornheim [3] plus video on the bottom of this page). I am related to JSB and we found dozens of relatives of Bach with a new tool. "BachueberBach", respectively "Bach On Bach" is no. 1 on many ( 35 languages ) foreign Google searches in their native language, even in India (जोहान सेबेस्टियन बाख; put this in Google) and China (约 翰·塞巴斯蒂安·巴赫 国际 项目+视频; put this in Google). We are the last and currently important genealogists regarding Bach earlier than Veit. The reliable second sources: Director Dr. Hansen Bach House Eisenach, thee Bach City # 1 together with Leipzig; Paragraph 27 as first recommendation on the net: [4] Paragraph 27 as first recommendation on the net! Next Bach.de: [5] (Pos. 6) , thee authority for decades: Bach-Cantatas with some 40 Links for instance Links in General [6] Pos. 7) plus Bach in Arts Ulm Cathedral (Must see my pictures, Cannolis: [7], Bach Cantatas ( there is a link to Bach-Cantatas on your Wiki page) is thee reference as a Bach website in the world. Check Wikipedia "Bach On Stamps" we have 120 more. Wikipedia Bach Choirs: we have dozens more. Important Bach Cities Ohrdruf [8]; Position 6) Arnstadt [9]; last article hint to a new website ) and Muehlhausen [10]; No. 1, whole article + 3 links !!! link to us. Please add our site to your page please as it's a total of more than 3 years of work with thousands of hours travel, taking photos, writing and researching. Best regards and thanks for reading that much and reconsidering, Peter -- BachUeberBach ( talk) 09:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Apart from Mr Schonken's WP:OWNERy approach to the current misguided bibliography section (presumably he'll push me up against WP:3RR so, fellow editors, please do eventually fix that mistake), this is a very well curated and cared for article. As such, I won't put these two old sources in for now: but here are the EB9 and EB11 articles on Bach, both of which are pretty thorough for their era, and might be used for future article expansion:
Kindly use these rather than the EB template, which lacks most of this info and makes it look as though Hugh Chisholm wrote the entire encyclopædia. — LlywelynII 11:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
needs sourcing. Wiktionary isn't authoritative at all, but it doesn't agree with this article. Word Reference's discussion isn't a WP:RS but it shows some people use the [x] pronunciation but others don't and even need to have the sound explained to them (the ch from "loch"). No idea how these guys came up with "bark" but possibly it's a British tinged thing. So... sourcing and possibly dialectical variants are in order. — LlywelynII 12:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
don't need a separate section carved out of the bibliography section, which should only list the works being used by the page's citations. They should go into a #Further reading section if they're not being used... but (a) Further Reading sections are generally terrible unless they're being lovingly curated by a specialist or are carefully listing what the actual value of each inclusion is and (b) there's no need for it here: there's an entire article on Bach's biographies so we shouldn't do a half-arsed partial list here.
These two were unused. Kindly reinclude them in the #Bibliography section once they're being used to verify some point in the text that isn't covered by one of the other works:
— LlywelynII 11:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The current formatting of this page
Anyone [ snip ] think that's a good idea? I don't, but I'm bumping up against WP:3RR at this point. (My own proposed formatting is here, but I'm open to third options that don't treat the #Bibliography section like a #Further Reading one.) — LlywelynII 14:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Rfc's should be worded neutrally [-Schonken]
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Someone has just supplied a citation which was "required" for the sequence of movements in the English suites -- but this (like other such "citations" here) is a reference to a recording which lists the movements. This seems quite absurd to me: the sequence of movements can be checked directly by looking at the score, to which there are several links at the end of the article. I cannot see that mentioning any particular recording is any help at all. Am I missing something? I understand the need for verifiability, but some things are self-verifiable, and extraneous references just clutter up the text. Imaginatorium ( talk) 14:05, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Your article says J. S. Bach was born March 31st, 1685. According to all other sources including biography.com, and everything else I have heard it was March 21st. The churches in Ann Arbor when I was in college in 1985 had a birthday concert on 1985. So either you are wrong or everyone else is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 17:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, but then George Washington's birthday should be like March 4. And when I looked up Julian calendar it shows the dates going from Sep 2, 1752 to Sep 14, 1752 which is 2 days later (i.e., an additional 11 days more than the 1 day it should be). So why Mar 31 instead of April 1? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 18:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
But where he was was Germany and it was before adoption of the calendar. But this article just furthers my point that Wikipedia is very unreliable and most of the writers have their heads stuck in places where it is too dark to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 11:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Bach's birthdate is noted in Gregorian rather than what countless sources use, i.,e. March 21. The original German wiki notes it as March 21. Having done Bach research for a good many years, this is the first time I've seen the Gregorian date of March 31. Looking at Bach's contemporaries, the old style date is maintained. Why has this revision been made? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.175 ( talk) 21:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Citing the NS date first is misleading, pedantic and punctilious. This entry on Bach is unique in the entire body of secondary literature in music history (including contemporary scholarship) in drawing unnecessary attention to the "great controversy" of the very gradual adoption of the Gregorian (to the XX century in Russia). Each and every student who is asked to cite the birthdate of Bach will be given censure. Anyone who knows Bach will say "He was born on March 21, 1685." To expect ordinary music students to take the OS/NS differences into consideration is, of course, a misguided project. As a service, this date should be changed. Drawing attention to calendarism has nothing to do with the fact base on which we rely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.20.234.131 ( talk) 00:55, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Also, I was reading about the calculation of Orthodox and, for lack of a better word, Unorthodox Easter. Orthodox use the calendar that's older. The article coincidentally mentions March 21st because that is the considered date of the equinox, but this article ( http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7050) states that old style March 21 is new style April 3, not March 31. if correct, this article should say Bach was born on April 3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 12:08, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
They censored a valid comment from me they didn't like. Wikipedia has a habbit of doing that to people they disagree with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.84.231.3 ( talk) 12:19, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
News of a petition, including the signatures of Günter Blobel and J. M. Coetzee, to save Bach's house, which is currently under a car park: [1]! Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
We've had a couple of reverts with regard to the Category:18th-century classical composers. If you view the category you'll see that they're all composers of music from the Classical period (as opposed to Baroque or Romantic), like Mozart. It doesn't mean composers of classical music broadly defined -- that wouldn't even make sense, since all composers of the 18th century composed that kind of music; none of them wrote jazz or hip-hop. Can we get a consensus on this? — Wahoofive ( talk) 22:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, those guys don't belong there either. There's really no point in having a category of all 18th-century composers. I was afraid no one would see it if I brought it up on the category talk page, though, so I thought I'd start here. — Wahoofive ( talk) 23:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Maybe the problem is that the category contains "18th century" in the name, which is redundant at best, and uselessly exclusionary at worst (Beethoven's not a classical composer?). Where's a better place to address this? — Wahoofive ( talk) 00:01, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Or maybe the category is just redundant with List of Classical era composers. — Wahoofive ( talk) 00:04, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
This article seems to group alternative versions of Bach's works (very incomplete list) together under the wholly inappropriate banner of "Easy Listening" versions. Neither Wendy Carlos or Jacques Loussier are bracketed in these genre definitions either in life or on Wikipedia's other pages. Carlos is an electronic pioneer who is fundamental to the history of Electronic Music and Loussier is a highly respected Jazz pianist who has a major career spanning the latter half of the twentieth century and beyond. "Easy Listening" as used in this otherwise fine article appears to be a form of slur or the ignorance of the writer to the other forms of music available in the current time. Putting these fine artists together and tagging them with the "Easy Listening" badge is as wantonly wrong as lumping Debussy together with Palestrina and tagging them "Old Skool Classical Stuff". Subject to no objections I would like to rewrite the paragraph in question, expanding the article to show the effect that Bach had on contemporary musicians outside the formal so-called "Classical" music arena, rather than simply the effect these artists had on the "popularity of Bach". I'll start my changes in a week from now if there are no objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humbled By The Knowledge Of Others ( talk • contribs) 20:42, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm adding a mention of this feast day in this article's legacy section, in order to include the Episcopal and Lutheran musicians' memorial on today's list of Holidays and Observances. Lutherans celebrate Bach, Handel and Schutz on the anniversary of Bach's death, and Epicopalians substitute Purcell for Schutz. I'm mentioning the reason here, because all the wikipedia articles for the other musicians mention the feast day. From this talk page, it seems that one or more editors may prefer the article as it is (and don't have the time to track down if/when a previous mention/s was/were removed, much less try to upgrade the status of this article, which seems on a downward trend). Jweaver28 ( talk) 11:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
"Bach's compositions include the Brandenburg concertos, the Mass in B minor, The Well-Tempered Clavier, two Passions, keyboard works, and more than 300 cantatas, of which nearly 100 cantatas have been lost to posterity.[2]"
Ahum. We're pretty sure that some cantatas have been lost (who knows how many were stored in the Weimar castle that burned down?). But to claim the number as "nearly 100" lacks evidence. Ref 2 is to a solid, well-written piece in the New York Review of Books last February by Gerge Stauffer. He's nice about Gardiner's book, but in the end is very critical about the stretches of the imagination—something that struck me in parts of Gardiner's BBC doco on Bach from a year or two ago. Tellingly, nowhere in the referenced review does the "nearly 100" claim appear; and if it's in Gardiner's book (which I haven't yet read), that should be referenced, with page number.
So I've a mind to remove that clause from the lead. What do people think? Tony (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
"The obituary stated that Bach composed five annual cycles, making a total of approximately three hundred cantatas. Only two hundred or so survive." Imaginatorium ( talk) 16:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
According to Spitta's 3-volume biography of Bach, as Cantor of the Thomasschule, 1723-1750, he had responsibility for music in the two main churches, the St. Nicholas Church or Nikolaikirche, and the St. Thomas Church. The article up to today had instead of the St. Thomas Church the " Paulinerkirche" which was the University Church. The WP article on the Paulinerkirche says Bach was Music director there but only for 1723-1725. It seems that Bach actually had worse relations overall with the University than predecessor Kuhnau had had. Anyhow for main responsibilities I am about to change Paulinerkirche to St. Thomas Church and put in a reference to Spitta. Marlindale ( talk) 20:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I looked in Spitta's index for three churches, Thomaskirche, Nikolaikirche, and the third which WP articles (on Bach and itself) call(ed) Paulinerkirche but (the translators of) Spitta call "University Church." What I found in Spitta is about the organs of each church. In vol. II, pp. 281-291. Starting on p. 281, "The organs of the two principal churches [I believe this means Thomaskirche and Nikolaikirche} which, it is true, Bach in his capacity as Cantor was not required to play upon.... were old and worn out. There were two in the Thomaskirche." The larger had been renovated in 1721, with addition of (p. 282) 400 new pipes and mixture stops, "under the direction of Johann Scheibe," co-supervised by Bach and Görner, organist of the University Church. A lot of details of the organ are given. p. 283. "The smaller of the two organs in the Thomaskirche was the older," which despite repairs as late as 1727 "was of very little use, and in 1740 Scheibe had to take it ... away."
P. 286, "The Nikolaikirche contained an organ dating from ... 1597-1598," last repaired in 1692 before Bach's time, and early in his time, 1725, by Scheibe. "In both the Thomaskirche and Nikolaikirche the organs were tuned to 'chorus' pitch."
P. 287 "In contrast to these old organs, which were of only moderate capacity, and liable to get out of order frequently, there had been in the University church since ... 1716 an organ which fulfilled the highest expectations, and which Bach must have chiefly employed when he played for his own pleasure or before other people." This suggests use of it was not part of his work as Cantor, unless perhaps in 1723-1725? Bach himself had been consulted, as a known leading organist, about this new organ and came from Köthen in 1716 to give his written opinion, which Spitta quotes on pp. 288-290. (Then Spitta goes into generalities about use of the organ in Lutheran services of the time: preludes, postludes) Marlindale ( talk) 23:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
This edit removed the sentence: The final work Bach completed was a chorale prelude for organ, entitled Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit (Before thy throne I now appear, BWV 668a) which he dictated to his son-in-law, Johann Christoph Altnickol, from his deathbed. When the notes on the three staves of the final cadence are counted and mapped onto the Roman alphabet, the initials "JSB" are found.(Geiringer (1966), p. 256) with the edit summary "See essay "The Deathbed Chorale: Exposing a Myth" in Wolff (1991), p. 282". Prima facie, this seems to be a reliably sourced claim, based on Johann Nikolaus Forkel writings. It should only be removed if the source doesn't support it. If it does, I think it would be more helpful to rephrase and refute the passage, e.g. Based on Johann Nikolaus Forkel's biography of Bach from 1802, it has been a long-held myth that Bach's final work was a chorale prelude ... The notes of the final cadence can supposedly be mapped to form the initials "JSB".(Geiringer (1966), p. 256) This account has since been refuted.("The Deathbed Chorale: Exposing a Myth" in Wolff (1991), p. 282). -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 06:28, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Buxtehude ( talk) 14:42, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
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[Add to Bibliography titles] Pirro, André (1907. English translation by Joe Armstrong 2014). The Aesthetic of Johann Sebastian Bach. New York: Rowman and Littlfield. ISBN978-1-4422-3290-7. Bostonflute ( talk) 22:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Some of his most well-known works, such as Toccata & Fugue, "Air", and "Jesu...Joy" are hardly mentioned or omitted. A music sample of each would be nice. -- 2605:E000:8645:2B00:B9E3:BE39:C1C1:985 ( talk) 04:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Isn't his name also frequently pronounced as "back" in English? Various puns presuppose such a pronunciation (just search the web for "hunchbach" or "Nickelbach", for example). Even PDQ Bach seems to be based on it ("pretty damn quick back"). -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 05:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
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Add some info about WMG, they own Bach's music - warner music group
46.109.65.175 ( talk) 16:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Do we really need this here? Seems odd to me. No one ever heard of the critic. 155.213.224.59 ( talk) 16:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
This is a strange heading in a biography article, listing the works in the supposed order of duration. How about Magnificat, Passions, oratorios? A bit of development, from the relatively early Magnificat 1723, St John Passion 1724, Easter Oratorio 1725, St Matthew Passion 1727, Christmas Oratorio 1734, to the Ascension Oratorio 1735. - Or group differently: Passions and oratorios vs. Church music in Latin? -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 07:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Anybody interested in Bach and related biographies and musical groups please help expand and start the missing entries from the Bach Cantatas website at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music/Missing articles:Bach Cantatas site.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
It's disappointing to see gender unnecessarily elevated to inform categories. Why is this distinction being made? Tony (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
For a few reasons I think this topic does not belong in the Lead. It seems not relevant to the essence of Bach as a composer. There is a section about the death. The lead has a statement as fact, "modern historians believe" the death was caused by a combination of pneumonia and stroke. In the section, this is called speculation. I think we should not speculate about an event over 250 years ago. Spitta's biography, vol. 3, p. 274, gives some details. Spitta confirms that Bach had "apoplexy", a stroke. He does not mention any lung disease. He confirms a statement attributed to a contemporary newspaper that "Medical treatment associated with the [failed eye] operation had such bad effects that his health, hitherto unfailing, was severely shaken" and he was left totally blind. Medical sources confirm that stroke is often associated with high fever (half of hospitalized stroke cases) and that might have led to the pneumonia speculation? What I propose to do in short is to remove any details of Bach's death (other than the date) from the Lead, and revise the section, referring to Spitta as indicated, Marlindale ( talk) 03:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Apologies if this has been dealt with before, but the article seems light on Bach's actual relationship with the religious music he created. Sources agree that the Lutheran Church was far more than a generous client, he remained a deeply committed orthodox Lutheran at a time when new ways of worship were starting to prevail. Rumiton ( talk) 23:32, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from Spitta and from the article itself, Leipzig period, this position, granted in 1736, was more or less an honorary one, a "title and style," far from a full-time position. Spitta says Bach visited Dresden only four times between 1723 and his death in 1750, but his main position remained in Leipzig. The article says that by getting this honor, Bach hoped to gain leverage with the Leipzig authorities. I think it is too complicated to explain this in the Lead, where as now stated it gives a misleading impression, so I propose to delete it from there, while possibly supplementing the text about it in the Leipzig period with material from Spitta. Marlindale ( talk) 19:24, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
It seemed rather a drastic action, but as I did not have any reason myself to revert any of it, I did not. Marlindale ( talk) 17:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be some misunderstanding in this article about German grammar when referring to the "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". "Mizlerischer" is an adjective and subject to declination in German; for detail, see e.g. wikt:lustig#Declension. The salient bit is that the nominative in strong declension (without article) or in mixed declension (with indefinite article) is "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". The form "Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" only occurs in genitive, dative and accusative cases (except singular dative where it's "Mizlerischerem"). The confusion probably arose from reading citations in German of the form "… im Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" or in prose "Gründung des Mizlerischen Bücherverlag" – those are declensions (dative, genitive). Please restore the nominative "Mizlerischer Bücherverlag". -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 06:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Bach died in 1750, and systematic publication of his music by the Bach-Gesellschaft began about 1850. In the intervening century some fraction of Bach's music is thought to have been lost including some 100 cantatas and a St. Mark Passion. For the music preserved, who preserved it? CPE Bach, JSB's second son, was the last of his 11 sons to die, in 1788. Johann Christian B., the last born, died earlier, in 1782, and also probably had not carriied many of his father's manuscripts to England. Do the Bach-Gesellschaft volumes, 1850-1900, give indications of where the works had been located? Marlindale ( talk) 03:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
JSB had I believe three: Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, Johann Christian Bach, and Wilhelm Friedemann Bach.. They might be mentioned in the Lead and/or under Legacy? The statement "Bach is the father, we are the children" was made about CPE Bach by Haydn or Mozart according to different sources I've seen? JC Bach contributed to the origin of the classical "galant" style of Haydn and Mozart I think.. As of now CPE is mentioned as co-author of an obituary of JSB, not highlighted that I saw. Various details need checking, but does the concept seem reasonable? Marlindale ( talk) 03:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
There was at least one more composer son, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, making four. This one and WF Bach might not be mentioned in the Lead? The statement about CPE Bach being the father was made by Mozart to Gottfried van Swieten according to a few sources. One in The Guardian said in the second half of the 18th cent., the name "Bach" in musical circles was almost entirely used about CPE not JSB. Marlindale ( talk) 03:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Google for `Bach's sons' gave a header Johann Sebastian Bach > sons and a listing of 11 of them. The four composer sons mentioned above are the first four sons on the list. None of the other sons seems to have composed. . JC Bach was the 11th and youngest son. Marlindale ( talk) 04:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst Bach is said to be "the only grandson of JSB 'to have gained fame as a composer" Marlindale ( talk) 00:17, 3 July 2015 (UTC) In the WP article on him as of now there is a discography with just one recording. Searching a compendious source (original research) I was unable to find any (other) recordings.
CPE Bach is now mentioned in the Lead and JC Bach in the Leipzig period when he was born. I have no current plan to mention the other two son composers WF and JCF Bach, or the grandson WFE, as they seem less distinguished than CPE and JC. Marlindale ( talk) 03:43, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought I mentioned the two sons in proportion to their importance as composers in their times, which really was not equal between the sons, and that these two were more important than Wilhelm Friedemann or JCF. So I don't see how this was "inconsistent." Buxtehude reverted the mentions, Of course I'm disappointed, but it would not be right for me to revert.. Marlindale ( talk) 04:15, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
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Please add ...
... as this is the largest German and largest international Bach website created by a family member of this family of musicians: largest collections of tributes, genealogy, stamps, Bach places and much more.
BachUeberBach ( talk) 08:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi Cannolis, all for us "is new" as we are new in the community, both Wiki and Bach: this is our apology if the answer might be too long. We didn't expect your answer so fast and didn't check and discover your answer out until today. Sorry. Thanks for requesting more proof. BachUeberBach is the largest German and International Bach website and in many themes there is way more information beyond Wikipedia. This website is the new reference in Bach genealogy all over the world. Same with stamps, tributes, Bach places, societies, choirs, orchestras and many more themes. Many Bach institutions worldwide link to it. We correspond with Bach Institutions like Bach archive, Bach House in Eisenach, St. Thomas Church, Officials in Arnstadt, Wechmar and Dornheim [3] plus video on the bottom of this page). I am related to JSB and we found dozens of relatives of Bach with a new tool. "BachueberBach", respectively "Bach On Bach" is no. 1 on many ( 35 languages ) foreign Google searches in their native language, even in India (जोहान सेबेस्टियन बाख; put this in Google) and China (约 翰·塞巴斯蒂安·巴赫 国际 项目+视频; put this in Google). We are the last and currently important genealogists regarding Bach earlier than Veit. The reliable second sources: Director Dr. Hansen Bach House Eisenach, thee Bach City # 1 together with Leipzig; Paragraph 27 as first recommendation on the net: [4] Paragraph 27 as first recommendation on the net! Next Bach.de: [5] (Pos. 6) , thee authority for decades: Bach-Cantatas with some 40 Links for instance Links in General [6] Pos. 7) plus Bach in Arts Ulm Cathedral (Must see my pictures, Cannolis: [7], Bach Cantatas ( there is a link to Bach-Cantatas on your Wiki page) is thee reference as a Bach website in the world. Check Wikipedia "Bach On Stamps" we have 120 more. Wikipedia Bach Choirs: we have dozens more. Important Bach Cities Ohrdruf [8]; Position 6) Arnstadt [9]; last article hint to a new website ) and Muehlhausen [10]; No. 1, whole article + 3 links !!! link to us. Please add our site to your page please as it's a total of more than 3 years of work with thousands of hours travel, taking photos, writing and researching. Best regards and thanks for reading that much and reconsidering, Peter -- BachUeberBach ( talk) 09:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Apart from Mr Schonken's WP:OWNERy approach to the current misguided bibliography section (presumably he'll push me up against WP:3RR so, fellow editors, please do eventually fix that mistake), this is a very well curated and cared for article. As such, I won't put these two old sources in for now: but here are the EB9 and EB11 articles on Bach, both of which are pretty thorough for their era, and might be used for future article expansion:
Kindly use these rather than the EB template, which lacks most of this info and makes it look as though Hugh Chisholm wrote the entire encyclopædia. — LlywelynII 11:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
needs sourcing. Wiktionary isn't authoritative at all, but it doesn't agree with this article. Word Reference's discussion isn't a WP:RS but it shows some people use the [x] pronunciation but others don't and even need to have the sound explained to them (the ch from "loch"). No idea how these guys came up with "bark" but possibly it's a British tinged thing. So... sourcing and possibly dialectical variants are in order. — LlywelynII 12:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
don't need a separate section carved out of the bibliography section, which should only list the works being used by the page's citations. They should go into a #Further reading section if they're not being used... but (a) Further Reading sections are generally terrible unless they're being lovingly curated by a specialist or are carefully listing what the actual value of each inclusion is and (b) there's no need for it here: there's an entire article on Bach's biographies so we shouldn't do a half-arsed partial list here.
These two were unused. Kindly reinclude them in the #Bibliography section once they're being used to verify some point in the text that isn't covered by one of the other works:
— LlywelynII 11:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The current formatting of this page
Anyone [ snip ] think that's a good idea? I don't, but I'm bumping up against WP:3RR at this point. (My own proposed formatting is here, but I'm open to third options that don't treat the #Bibliography section like a #Further Reading one.) — LlywelynII 14:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Rfc's should be worded neutrally [-Schonken]