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Hmm, I thought that Joe was from Cleland, about 10 miles from Carluke.
I recall the day he returned from the 1974 world cup, all the kids from Cleland Primary school, including me, spent the whole afternoon in Mennock Street waiting for him to come home (I think his parents lived there).
The article twice mentions that Jordan joined Kenny Dalglish as the only Scottish player ever to score in 3 World Cup finals competitions. However this information on Dalglish appears neither in the list of players to score in three WCFs, nor on Dalglish's own page. As one who is just about old enough to remember, I am fairly certain that Dalglish did not score in the 1974 tournament (Scotland's 3 goals being scored by Jordan (2) and Lorimer). Demogorgon's Soup-taster 13:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't actually say anything whatsoever about his time at Milan - was it really that un-notable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.98.72.18 ( talk) 00:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
This article should also mention the anti-Italian remarks by Jordan that sparked off Gattuso's attack on him after the AC Milan-Spurs game in February 2011.
There seem to be some misconceptions about these policies on this article. First, material that is repeatedly referred to later in biographical materials as important to the subject's life, important enough to be used as examples to support other claims in the article, are by definition, not NEWS. Second, UNDUE does not mandate removing large well sourced and relevant parts of an article just because other parts don't have enough content. That's a frankly absurd way to approach article development. Those gaps exist simply due to lack of easily obtainable coverage to expand them to the size they should be if this were a Featured Article. I should know, I spent much of last week looking for them. MickMacNee ( talk) 14:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
On 15 February, 2011, during Tottenham's 1-0 victory over AC Milan in Italy, in last 16 UEFA Champions League, Jordan was involved in two heated exchanges with Milan player Gennaro Gattuso. During the game Gattuso had a touchline confrontation with Jordan, and after the game, Gattuso grabbed Jordan by the neck and attempted to head butt him, to which Jordan neither reacted or retaliated to physically. Gattuso later apologised, and was banned by UEFA for four European matches for assaulting Jordan.
The incident is covered in twice as much detail as it needs to be. Talking about Featured Article status, Thierry Henry covers the handball incident in as much detail as this. Obviously that is absurd, seen as Jordan/Gattuso resulted in a backpage headline and a short suspension, whereas the handball resulted in one nation heading to the World Cup instead of another and months of headlines, with a diplomatic spat to boot. This is all fluff: [Gattuso later apologised and took full responsibility for having lost his head and doing what he did to "an older person", and with a UEFA investigation having begun immediately, stated he would accept any forthcoming ban. In explaining the head-butt he said "Jordan busted my balls for the whole second half" and "I was annoyed about the words I'd exchanged with Jordan earlier. We were both speaking Scottish given that I played in his country in Glasgow but I'm not going to say what was said". According to Gattuso's agent, the head butt was triggered by Jordan calling him an “Italian bastard”, a claim which Jordan rejected emphatically, stating "He clearly doesn't realise I consider playing for Milan the proudest time of my career, that my daughter lives and works in Italy and that I love the country and the people. It's just a nonsense, it really is.”] Remove it. Cheers.-- Echetus Xe 17:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
[On 15 February 2011, during Tottenham's 1-0 victory over AC Milan at the San Siro, in the last 16 of the UEFA Champions League, Jordan was involved in two heated exchanges with Milan player Gennaro Gattuso. During the game Gattuso had a touchline confrontation with Jordan, and after the game, Gattuso grabbed Jordan by the neck and attempted to head butt him, to which Jordan neither reacted or retaliated to physically. Gattuso apologized, but received a four match ban from UEFA. His agent claimed Jordan used a racial slur to provoke Gattuso, an accusation Jordan claimed to be 'nonsense'.]
Textbook WP:UNDUE and exactly the sort of thing which lowers the quality of existing articles. Real-world consequences were minimal and applied entirely to Gattuso. WFC has it precisely right about how we apply BLP to situations like this. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 13:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
You're all completely wrong. There is a clear difference between BLP issues (misrepresentation of information) and simple quality concerns (patchy coverage). You simply cannot apply UNDUE to an article to so blatantly hack parts out of it, when it is so clearly and obviously nowhere near, i.e. not even 10%, what it would be, if it were complete, if it were at the version where anyone could reasonably ask, is the coverage now here in proper proportion? It's really sad that the only justification any of you seem to have for cutting this back to this vague and pretty pointless summary, is that the article is so shit it doesn't contain enough information right now elsewhere to make it 'look' in proportion (rather than actually being in proportion if the article was complete), and so you are going to degrade the quality of all parts of it, even the properly sourced, properly attributed, parts. While the suggestions above were fatally flawed with their dodgy summarisation and unbalanced ommissions and assumptions, the reverted to one line for all incidents version is frankly a joke, and is itself a 'begging the question' type BLP violation, considering at least one of those incidents, probably more, Jordan was completely blameless. Given your explanations above, is the jaw breaking incident now also 'out of balance' for the Man U section? Because it's beyond doubt considered historically notable, per the sources, and is of a size hat would be perfectly acceptable if this article was an FA. You won't be able to answer that question without proving you logic behind these changes to be utterly wrong, imho. MickMacNee ( talk) 19:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 13:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Joe Jordan (footballer) → Joe Jordan – I believe that the football player is clearly the primary topic amongst people known as Joe Jordan (rather than Joseph). His viewing statistics (11,842 in the last 90 days) are almost 20 times greater than the musician (605) and almost 30 times greater than the politician (397). The footballer is very notable within his field; he is only one of two players from Great Britain to score in three separate FIFA World Cup tournaments ( David Beckham being the other); he appeared over 50 times for his national team and has been inducted into the national hall of fame. Jmorrison230582 ( talk) 10:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Hmm, I thought that Joe was from Cleland, about 10 miles from Carluke.
I recall the day he returned from the 1974 world cup, all the kids from Cleland Primary school, including me, spent the whole afternoon in Mennock Street waiting for him to come home (I think his parents lived there).
The article twice mentions that Jordan joined Kenny Dalglish as the only Scottish player ever to score in 3 World Cup finals competitions. However this information on Dalglish appears neither in the list of players to score in three WCFs, nor on Dalglish's own page. As one who is just about old enough to remember, I am fairly certain that Dalglish did not score in the 1974 tournament (Scotland's 3 goals being scored by Jordan (2) and Lorimer). Demogorgon's Soup-taster 13:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't actually say anything whatsoever about his time at Milan - was it really that un-notable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.98.72.18 ( talk) 00:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
This article should also mention the anti-Italian remarks by Jordan that sparked off Gattuso's attack on him after the AC Milan-Spurs game in February 2011.
There seem to be some misconceptions about these policies on this article. First, material that is repeatedly referred to later in biographical materials as important to the subject's life, important enough to be used as examples to support other claims in the article, are by definition, not NEWS. Second, UNDUE does not mandate removing large well sourced and relevant parts of an article just because other parts don't have enough content. That's a frankly absurd way to approach article development. Those gaps exist simply due to lack of easily obtainable coverage to expand them to the size they should be if this were a Featured Article. I should know, I spent much of last week looking for them. MickMacNee ( talk) 14:50, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
On 15 February, 2011, during Tottenham's 1-0 victory over AC Milan in Italy, in last 16 UEFA Champions League, Jordan was involved in two heated exchanges with Milan player Gennaro Gattuso. During the game Gattuso had a touchline confrontation with Jordan, and after the game, Gattuso grabbed Jordan by the neck and attempted to head butt him, to which Jordan neither reacted or retaliated to physically. Gattuso later apologised, and was banned by UEFA for four European matches for assaulting Jordan.
The incident is covered in twice as much detail as it needs to be. Talking about Featured Article status, Thierry Henry covers the handball incident in as much detail as this. Obviously that is absurd, seen as Jordan/Gattuso resulted in a backpage headline and a short suspension, whereas the handball resulted in one nation heading to the World Cup instead of another and months of headlines, with a diplomatic spat to boot. This is all fluff: [Gattuso later apologised and took full responsibility for having lost his head and doing what he did to "an older person", and with a UEFA investigation having begun immediately, stated he would accept any forthcoming ban. In explaining the head-butt he said "Jordan busted my balls for the whole second half" and "I was annoyed about the words I'd exchanged with Jordan earlier. We were both speaking Scottish given that I played in his country in Glasgow but I'm not going to say what was said". According to Gattuso's agent, the head butt was triggered by Jordan calling him an “Italian bastard”, a claim which Jordan rejected emphatically, stating "He clearly doesn't realise I consider playing for Milan the proudest time of my career, that my daughter lives and works in Italy and that I love the country and the people. It's just a nonsense, it really is.”] Remove it. Cheers.-- Echetus Xe 17:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
[On 15 February 2011, during Tottenham's 1-0 victory over AC Milan at the San Siro, in the last 16 of the UEFA Champions League, Jordan was involved in two heated exchanges with Milan player Gennaro Gattuso. During the game Gattuso had a touchline confrontation with Jordan, and after the game, Gattuso grabbed Jordan by the neck and attempted to head butt him, to which Jordan neither reacted or retaliated to physically. Gattuso apologized, but received a four match ban from UEFA. His agent claimed Jordan used a racial slur to provoke Gattuso, an accusation Jordan claimed to be 'nonsense'.]
Textbook WP:UNDUE and exactly the sort of thing which lowers the quality of existing articles. Real-world consequences were minimal and applied entirely to Gattuso. WFC has it precisely right about how we apply BLP to situations like this. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 13:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
You're all completely wrong. There is a clear difference between BLP issues (misrepresentation of information) and simple quality concerns (patchy coverage). You simply cannot apply UNDUE to an article to so blatantly hack parts out of it, when it is so clearly and obviously nowhere near, i.e. not even 10%, what it would be, if it were complete, if it were at the version where anyone could reasonably ask, is the coverage now here in proper proportion? It's really sad that the only justification any of you seem to have for cutting this back to this vague and pretty pointless summary, is that the article is so shit it doesn't contain enough information right now elsewhere to make it 'look' in proportion (rather than actually being in proportion if the article was complete), and so you are going to degrade the quality of all parts of it, even the properly sourced, properly attributed, parts. While the suggestions above were fatally flawed with their dodgy summarisation and unbalanced ommissions and assumptions, the reverted to one line for all incidents version is frankly a joke, and is itself a 'begging the question' type BLP violation, considering at least one of those incidents, probably more, Jordan was completely blameless. Given your explanations above, is the jaw breaking incident now also 'out of balance' for the Man U section? Because it's beyond doubt considered historically notable, per the sources, and is of a size hat would be perfectly acceptable if this article was an FA. You won't be able to answer that question without proving you logic behind these changes to be utterly wrong, imho. MickMacNee ( talk) 19:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 13:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Joe Jordan (footballer) → Joe Jordan – I believe that the football player is clearly the primary topic amongst people known as Joe Jordan (rather than Joseph). His viewing statistics (11,842 in the last 90 days) are almost 20 times greater than the musician (605) and almost 30 times greater than the politician (397). The footballer is very notable within his field; he is only one of two players from Great Britain to score in three separate FIFA World Cup tournaments ( David Beckham being the other); he appeared over 50 times for his national team and has been inducted into the national hall of fame. Jmorrison230582 ( talk) 10:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
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