A fact from Jisr el-Majami appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 17 May 2020 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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User:Onceinawhile, feel free to copy from my draft, User:Huldra/Jisr al Majami! Huldra ( talk) 21:34, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Yoninah (
talk)
19:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Created by Onceinawhile ( talk) and Huldra ( talk). Nominated by Onceinawhile ( talk) at 22:12, 7 April 2020 (UTC).
"200 meters south of the confluence of the Yarmouk and Jordan rivers" -- I know Peterson says that, but it's quite confusing. Before the power station it was several km downstream (look at PEF map for example). Now it is 200m south of the tail race canal from the power station. If that is considered the Yarmouk River then Peterson can be excused, but is it? Is there any water flowing through the old power station still? Zero talk 14:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The entire paragraph is quite useless, as it doesn't clarify at all the nature of settlement forms at the site, which is the essence of the matter. Counting people says close to nothing about where and how they live.
Apparently, at first there was a small group of Arab squatters inside the khan ruins, but were they Bedouin or farmers? And even more important: what came after that? Maybe a bridge administrator with his household? The first Kibbutz Gesher was set up inside the khan, but when? Was the population of Tel Or, Rutenberg's workers' village at Naharayim, counted together with the kibbutz? In what form did Arabs live next to both, or are the late Arab inhabitants, workers living at Tel Or? Only questions, no answers, and the article doesn't even hint at these issues. It is not the usual case of an Arab village whose land was sold off by absentee landlords (or was it in its first phase?), or one that was evacuated/chased away during the 30s or 40s, and the distinction is of the essence. Arminden ( talk) 10:30, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller, Zero0000, Huldra, Onceinawhile, and Selfstudier: please check again. It needs the article el-. Jisr el-Majami is clearly the most common spelling, al- less common, but definitely not without. "Bridge of the meeting". Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 07:21, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Selfstudier ( talk) 15:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile:, hi. Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the way you have created and expanded the article. The "Lands Acquired..." map though...
The current caption reads: "The land surrounding the bridge was acquired by Palestine Electric Company in the 1920s."
The map does in no way contain this information (see also what I wrote on the image's talk-page). W/o colours, the map is useless, as its very purpose was to distinguish between lands bought previously by the Baron and others, which happened to be useful for the hydroelectric project, and those acquired specifically to be able to build the entire complex (sluices, channels, reservoir (artificial Jordan-Yarmuk lake), actual power-plant, workers' village). W/o colours, the distinction is lost, gone. Second, the caption's claim ("acquired by PEC in the 1920s") has no source. Why not 30s? And, because the map can't be "read" in black and white: which lands? How do you know that that plot inscribed "Jisr-el-Mujamia", which is the topic of this article, was bought by the PEC and not by PICA/Rotschild/their grandmother? I also want to know what's what around there, but as we stand now, if there's no additional source, that map should be removed, as all it does is to create the wrong impression and attract misleading captions. All it does offer is what lands Rutenberg thought at a preliminary phase he would need to build the water channels etc., which isn't needed here. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 00:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi Zero. They're the best payed employees in Israel, maybe that motivates them, but maybe it makes them lazy, who knows. Arminden ( talk) 04:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile: hi again :)
Did you figure out what has happened to the bridge? The WWI photos are showing a flat bridge, impossible to reconcile with the older photos and drawings, and with the bridge recently restored by the Italians. Did the Ottomans fully rebuilt it, maybe leaving only the central arch, but bringing everything else to one level? The 2-slopes aspect with the small arches "filling in" between the pavement/road surface and the lateral, medium-sized arches built on the ground, is missing there. See for instance the Ozzie War Memorial Museum picture (see A or here). It can't be the modern road bridge from the 20s (probably too early; let's say the Ozzies used later photos: for that it's too tattered and damaged). Rutenberg probably deepened the riverbed to make it better suited as an extension to the "tail race canal" or whatever (see B), I guess that explains some of the changes around the bridge, but not its actual shape. So? Did the Turks fully modify it, and the Italians restored it to its former shape, meaning: two almost complete reconstructions since the mid-19th c.? Did you find any source for that? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 01:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
I see the exact same thing happened with the Jacob's Daughters Bridge: pointy, then by the time Creswell photographs it, the central, tallest arch has been "shaven" to the level of the lateral ones, a wooden improvisation fills in the created gap, and masonry levels everything towards the two ends. So probably they gave up on the ancient arch-with-keystone technology to allow for a level road for wheeled traffic. I guess. Arminden ( talk) 01:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Onceinawhile, respect! Never thought of it. This one is smack in the middle of the Rutenberg plant area, you can actually see one or two Jordanian border facilities from what used to be called the Peace Island. I never thought this could be anything but part of the Rutenberg thing. Since it's pre-WWI and it looks of industrial age, it can only be one of Meissner's bridges. I'm sure it shows on the maps along the tracks. Good point about the sketch. Didn't know it's from 1927. I didn't fully zoom in on the legend, but I don't think it's written there. We'll figure it all out. Thanks again! Arminden ( talk) 04:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
PS: Jacob's Bridge still looks like it's been modified, either fully on purpose, or once it was damaged by whatever they used the chance to "modernise" it in an improvised manner. Maybe the Anzacs, during WWI? And there's no railroad that high up north to come & save the day :) Arminden ( talk) 04:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Wait... Problem. The metal bridge is a railroad bridge, and it's parallel and too close to this one. Back to (almost) square one. And it looks like two bridges right next to each other, or maybe one expanded bridge. I give up. Arminden ( talk) 04:39, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
There are three bridges at Jisr el-Majami. In the aerial shot in the article there is a second bridge hiding behind the first. To see the layout, look at this satellite image. From top to bottom, the ancient bridge, a road bridge (built to replace the ancient one, not sure when but post-1940 and I think post-1960), and a rail bridge. The rail bridge has a portion of track coming off to the left with some abandoned rail cars visible. Zero talk 07:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, I don't have much to add to Zero's and Once's explanations; (and yeah; I struggled about the numbers of bridges/their names, too.) One thing, though: the article presently looks horrible "messy"; what about collecting all the maps into one "Gallery" (starting with the oldest -> newest); then keeping the pictures in a separate gallery, below (much as it is)? Thoughts? Huldra ( talk) 20:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Here it is.... Onceinawhile ( talk) 04:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Masonry arch bridges exist at Jisr ed - Damieh , Jisr Sheikh Hussein , Jisr el - Mejamieh , Jisr Benat Yaqub , and el - Gajir over the Jordan and at Jisr Saghir over the Yarmuk.
So I reordered the whole thing: maps in increasing order (in years); the same for pictures. If anyone don't agree; just undo it, Huldra ( talk) 21:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
A fact from Jisr el-Majami appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 17 May 2020 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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User:Onceinawhile, feel free to copy from my draft, User:Huldra/Jisr al Majami! Huldra ( talk) 21:34, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Yoninah (
talk)
19:51, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Created by Onceinawhile ( talk) and Huldra ( talk). Nominated by Onceinawhile ( talk) at 22:12, 7 April 2020 (UTC).
"200 meters south of the confluence of the Yarmouk and Jordan rivers" -- I know Peterson says that, but it's quite confusing. Before the power station it was several km downstream (look at PEF map for example). Now it is 200m south of the tail race canal from the power station. If that is considered the Yarmouk River then Peterson can be excused, but is it? Is there any water flowing through the old power station still? Zero talk 14:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
The entire paragraph is quite useless, as it doesn't clarify at all the nature of settlement forms at the site, which is the essence of the matter. Counting people says close to nothing about where and how they live.
Apparently, at first there was a small group of Arab squatters inside the khan ruins, but were they Bedouin or farmers? And even more important: what came after that? Maybe a bridge administrator with his household? The first Kibbutz Gesher was set up inside the khan, but when? Was the population of Tel Or, Rutenberg's workers' village at Naharayim, counted together with the kibbutz? In what form did Arabs live next to both, or are the late Arab inhabitants, workers living at Tel Or? Only questions, no answers, and the article doesn't even hint at these issues. It is not the usual case of an Arab village whose land was sold off by absentee landlords (or was it in its first phase?), or one that was evacuated/chased away during the 30s or 40s, and the distinction is of the essence. Arminden ( talk) 10:30, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller, Zero0000, Huldra, Onceinawhile, and Selfstudier: please check again. It needs the article el-. Jisr el-Majami is clearly the most common spelling, al- less common, but definitely not without. "Bridge of the meeting". Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 07:21, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
Selfstudier ( talk) 15:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile:, hi. Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the way you have created and expanded the article. The "Lands Acquired..." map though...
The current caption reads: "The land surrounding the bridge was acquired by Palestine Electric Company in the 1920s."
The map does in no way contain this information (see also what I wrote on the image's talk-page). W/o colours, the map is useless, as its very purpose was to distinguish between lands bought previously by the Baron and others, which happened to be useful for the hydroelectric project, and those acquired specifically to be able to build the entire complex (sluices, channels, reservoir (artificial Jordan-Yarmuk lake), actual power-plant, workers' village). W/o colours, the distinction is lost, gone. Second, the caption's claim ("acquired by PEC in the 1920s") has no source. Why not 30s? And, because the map can't be "read" in black and white: which lands? How do you know that that plot inscribed "Jisr-el-Mujamia", which is the topic of this article, was bought by the PEC and not by PICA/Rotschild/their grandmother? I also want to know what's what around there, but as we stand now, if there's no additional source, that map should be removed, as all it does is to create the wrong impression and attract misleading captions. All it does offer is what lands Rutenberg thought at a preliminary phase he would need to build the water channels etc., which isn't needed here. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 00:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Hi Zero. They're the best payed employees in Israel, maybe that motivates them, but maybe it makes them lazy, who knows. Arminden ( talk) 04:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Onceinawhile: hi again :)
Did you figure out what has happened to the bridge? The WWI photos are showing a flat bridge, impossible to reconcile with the older photos and drawings, and with the bridge recently restored by the Italians. Did the Ottomans fully rebuilt it, maybe leaving only the central arch, but bringing everything else to one level? The 2-slopes aspect with the small arches "filling in" between the pavement/road surface and the lateral, medium-sized arches built on the ground, is missing there. See for instance the Ozzie War Memorial Museum picture (see A or here). It can't be the modern road bridge from the 20s (probably too early; let's say the Ozzies used later photos: for that it's too tattered and damaged). Rutenberg probably deepened the riverbed to make it better suited as an extension to the "tail race canal" or whatever (see B), I guess that explains some of the changes around the bridge, but not its actual shape. So? Did the Turks fully modify it, and the Italians restored it to its former shape, meaning: two almost complete reconstructions since the mid-19th c.? Did you find any source for that? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 01:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
I see the exact same thing happened with the Jacob's Daughters Bridge: pointy, then by the time Creswell photographs it, the central, tallest arch has been "shaven" to the level of the lateral ones, a wooden improvisation fills in the created gap, and masonry levels everything towards the two ends. So probably they gave up on the ancient arch-with-keystone technology to allow for a level road for wheeled traffic. I guess. Arminden ( talk) 01:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Onceinawhile, respect! Never thought of it. This one is smack in the middle of the Rutenberg plant area, you can actually see one or two Jordanian border facilities from what used to be called the Peace Island. I never thought this could be anything but part of the Rutenberg thing. Since it's pre-WWI and it looks of industrial age, it can only be one of Meissner's bridges. I'm sure it shows on the maps along the tracks. Good point about the sketch. Didn't know it's from 1927. I didn't fully zoom in on the legend, but I don't think it's written there. We'll figure it all out. Thanks again! Arminden ( talk) 04:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
PS: Jacob's Bridge still looks like it's been modified, either fully on purpose, or once it was damaged by whatever they used the chance to "modernise" it in an improvised manner. Maybe the Anzacs, during WWI? And there's no railroad that high up north to come & save the day :) Arminden ( talk) 04:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Wait... Problem. The metal bridge is a railroad bridge, and it's parallel and too close to this one. Back to (almost) square one. And it looks like two bridges right next to each other, or maybe one expanded bridge. I give up. Arminden ( talk) 04:39, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
There are three bridges at Jisr el-Majami. In the aerial shot in the article there is a second bridge hiding behind the first. To see the layout, look at this satellite image. From top to bottom, the ancient bridge, a road bridge (built to replace the ancient one, not sure when but post-1940 and I think post-1960), and a rail bridge. The rail bridge has a portion of track coming off to the left with some abandoned rail cars visible. Zero talk 07:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, I don't have much to add to Zero's and Once's explanations; (and yeah; I struggled about the numbers of bridges/their names, too.) One thing, though: the article presently looks horrible "messy"; what about collecting all the maps into one "Gallery" (starting with the oldest -> newest); then keeping the pictures in a separate gallery, below (much as it is)? Thoughts? Huldra ( talk) 20:35, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Here it is.... Onceinawhile ( talk) 04:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Masonry arch bridges exist at Jisr ed - Damieh , Jisr Sheikh Hussein , Jisr el - Mejamieh , Jisr Benat Yaqub , and el - Gajir over the Jordan and at Jisr Saghir over the Yarmuk.
So I reordered the whole thing: maps in increasing order (in years); the same for pictures. If anyone don't agree; just undo it, Huldra ( talk) 21:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)