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Can someone do something about United and Federation Judaism in the UK (2 major branched of orthodox judaism here)
I object to the use of "denominations" ... I propose we use the term used in the Jewish community itself "movements" ... "Denomination" is a Christian construct and we should respect the Jewish etymology of movements. -- Jon Cates 17:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
"Some Jews felt that Enlightenment values, especially the incorporation of secular subjects into Jewish education, as well increased integration with the outside world, would bring much to Judaism. Others, however, noted that this same era allowed Jews, for the first time, the ability to easily assimilate into Christian society"
Either we take out "however", or we strengthen "allowed". As for my rephrase...well, the whole passage is weak. But I have a writer's tic against these sorts of passages... -- VKokielov 04:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is when I have to stop, look myself over, and bite my lip. I understand now it's a question of taste and, even more, quality - an argument between the writers of an encyclopedia and someone else altogether...See, if I were writing about the Jews who "howevered" the Enlightenment, I wouldn't write about them this way. It captures nothing of their sentiment; it's dry, airless. But...this is an encyclopedia. You win. :D -- VKokielov 20:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A footnote: to capture the sentiment artfully doesn't require taking a point of view. I think they call it the "third-person omniscient", that classical writer's tool. No good novelist to write this way has ever allowed himself to take a side; but no great novelist has ever written like in an encyclopedia. -- VKokielov 20:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if there was a percentage breakdown of different denominations available? I've hunted around and can't find a comparison of population figures of different denominations, especially world-wide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djbell ( talk • contribs) .
Reconstructionist Judaism does not adhere to Traditional Jewish principles any more than Pagan Judaism or Messianic Judaism. It should be moved from here to the Aternative judaism page .
We see repeated attempts to add Messianics in all articles related to Judaism. Here, User:ChristTrekker is making such effort. "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448). More quotes per request. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey Trekker, there are very few things that all the Jewish denominations are in complete agreement on. One of the only things I can think of that all Jews seem to agree on is that Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism, but rather a form of Christianity. --
Metzenberg
07:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Secular Humanistic entry, and for good reason: there is not a more foundational principle in Judaism than the fact that there is a G-d. The two concepts are simply inseparable. It's like a car without its engine. Maybe someone has questions/comments about this, or thinks this a bad move (if so, address it here), but just like Messianic Judaism this is already listed in the Alternative Jewish movements article. Noogster 07:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This represents a new organization of a former section: Broader historical framework to explain the development of the denominations.
There is a huge literature in each of the three areas. Can anyone think of any others. -- Metzenberg 00:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This section, which was written before I started to work on this page, is unsourced, and it contains many factual errors. Therefore, I am simply going to remove the material that used to be here. Here are some examples of the factual errors that this section formerly contained:
The article says the Reconstructionists "formally separated" from the Conservative movement in the 1980s. Is that right? The Jewish Reconstructionist Federation was founded in 1955, the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College was established in 1968, and the Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association in 1974. [2] I'm not sure if any of those events might qualify as a "formal separation," but I would say that the separation was earlier than the 80s. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 01:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
This article says that Conservative Judaism was "[f]ounded in the United States." Conservative Judaism says the movement "developed in Europe and the United States." Reconstructionist Judaism describes Reconstructionism as "the only major movement of Judaism to originate in North America." It's been a long time since I studied the history of the various Jewish movements and I don't remember all the details, but I hope somebody can nail down the facts so all three articles can be made consistent with one another. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 01:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Both Encyclopedia Britannica and the Jewish Encyclopedia use the term 'Karaism'. The term 'Karaite Judaism' seems to have been invented by Karaites in recent years. As such it is not widely accepted and is in breach of WP:NPOV-- Redaktor 16:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is so riddled with OR and blatant POV pushing that it's not funny. I've been working on polishing it to remove at least the POV aspect, but other members persist on reverting my edits. I would appreciate it if they would discuss their criticisms on the talk page 1st, before reverting. Yehoishophot Oliver 00:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
1. it is not true that Orthodox Judaism recognises that it has something in common with reform; it doesn't and this is POV to suggest that it does. The article should say "appears to share" at best, instead of imposing its point of view that it does in fact share these values. 2. I never said to say that Conservative and Reform are deviations, I said to clarify that they are from the vantage point Orthodox Judaism. 3. Conservative and Reform should be referred to as "so-called denominations" because Orthodox doesn't recognise them as such. It shouldn't be stated without qualification that they are denominations, because that's imposing the Conservative and Reform POV. Yehoishophot Oliver 00:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The Orthodox movement is not the goddamned Sanhedrin. Its practitioners don't make Halakha and they don't get to decide who is or is not a Jew or expressing Judaism in a valid way. CharlesMartel ( talk) 23:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)CharlesMartel
This table is wildly unrepresentative, giving more weight to movements representing less than 20% of Jewry in England and Israel than to the remaining 80%.-- Redaktor 10:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Saying Hasidic/Haredi Jews are more tradition than "regular" Ashkenazim in America or Moroccans in Israel is just plain wrong. Rabbi Soloveitchik comes from a line of direct succession from Rabbi Eliyahu of Vilna. Their law is more in line with Medievil traditional views. For example, the case of teffilin on Moed is in line with the views of the traditional authorities, hilkhot gedolot, the rif, the rambam, and the rosh. As opposed to the typical Hasidic/Haredi view which is in line with slightly less traditional sources such as Rabbenu Bachya and the Ari. While there are many Haredim who do accord with the more traditional view they are limited to a large section of Litvaks. I will post another example with sources later tonight. 84.228.179.49 ( talk) 11:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I propose renaming this article "Jewish religious movements". I think "Jewish denominations" is a neologism. I would also point to Relationships between Jewish religious movements. What do others think? — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 22:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The article states that: "Ashkenazi communities compose about 42% of the world's Jewish population, and Sephardic communities compose about 37%. Of the remainder, the Mizrahi Jewish communities—the "Arab" and "Persian" Jews—compose the greatest part, with about 16% of the world's Jewish population. Together these ethnic groups compose 95% of the world's Jewish population."
This is wrong. These figures are for *Israel* not the world Jewish population. World Jewish population is about 75% Ashkenazi. I will change it unless someone disagree. 85.250.74.39 ( talk) 12:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
from the article "all the sects of Hasidic Judaism have been subsumed theologically into mainstream Orthodox Judaism, " I think this is t0o strong - I am certainlyh not knowledgable to correct this, but the wiki article on hasidic judaism agrees with me. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 04:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This may interest editors of this article. I propose that we need to make a subtle, but important terminology change in this article, and in other articles closely related to this subject. The Conservative movement is a very widely used term in the Jewish community for a subset of Conservative Judaism.
The phrase Conservative Judaism refers to a rather broad religious movement within Judaism. Many statements by Conservative rabbis (especially Ismar Schorsch and Jack Wertheimer), academic Jewish scholars, such as Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen, as well as many Orthodox rabbis recognize that Conservative Judaism is more than just groups formally affiliated with the Conservative movement. Schorsch and Wertheimer have repeatedly noted that most of Conservative Judaism's most recognized success stories involve people who choose not to formally join the Conservative movement. They include in this category the Union for Traditional Judaism, the Chavurah movement, non-affiliated traditional synagogues, and many synagogues which advertise as being "non-denominational".
This article should recognize that the term Conservative movement refers to a well-defined subset of organizations and individuals that are within Conservative Judaism, such as the Rabbinical Assembly, the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, and all other organs within the LCCJ.
For a detailed discussion of this issue please see The Conservative Movement in Judaism: Dilemmas and Opportunities, SUNY Press, by Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen. RK ( talk) 16:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note that I am not trying to "prove" that all of these movements (Chavurah, UTJ, post-denominational, etc.) are part of Conservative Judaism. In fact, no one can strictly "prove" that any particular group is "truly" Reform, or "truly" Orthodox, either! I have seen countless attacks on Orthodox groups and individuals by other Orthodox Jews; and the same within the Reform Jewish community. Rather, I am saying that we must describe the fact that these groups are widely recognized by both Orthodox and Conservative Jews as being part of Conservative Judaism, even though they are not formally a part of the Conservative Movement. Indeed, that is already what we for Orthodox Judaism: We don't pick one organizations structure (e.g. RIETS, YU and the RCA) and made that equivalent to all of Orthodox Judaism, and then label all other Orthodox groups as non-Orthodox. Rather, we have always defined Orthodox Judaism as a school of thought, with a range of theologies and practices, and then described in an NPOV fashion the groups that are widely recognized as Orthodox. Now we should do the same with Conservative Judaism. RK ( talk) 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Tikun Olam is now a basic part of all types of Judaism? After all of those years in Yeshivot of several sorts (inlcuding Y.U.), this is news to me. As far as I can tell, it is another attempt to replace the Torah with the platform of the Democratic party. Yes, some Orthodox groups have used it, but universally recognized as basic? Hardly!
Any shared values? Monotheism, I guess. (So far.) The strong should help the weak. Anything else? Maybe just stick to history and not try to find anytihng in practice. Mzk1 ( talk) 19:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I have only refrained from deleting the following paragraph because it might reflect consensus. However, I will do so soon if someone doesn't justify it:
Religiously speaking, most Jewish communities have historically held that there is no relevant role for "dogma"; rather, there is halakha (Jewish law) only. The extent to which every Jew as an individual adheres to Jewish law has long been regarded as a matter of personal preference, although the idea has always been prominent that every Jew should be as observant of the laws as they are able.
This strikes me as not only very POV, but contradicted by the Bible, the Talmud, the entire Mishnah Torah of Maimonides, and the various revival movements in Jewish history, which often contained decrees to strengthen observance.
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DayakSibiriak In this edit a lot of information was added. First of all, the addition sound a bit like advertising, and might need some reducing to be neutral. Secondly, the information was added in front of sources, giving the impression that it can be found in those same sources. I that indeed so? Debresser ( talk) 15:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't think British Israelism, Christian Identity, French Israelism, and Nordic Israelism qualify as Jewish religious movements. Editor2020 ( talk) 02:55, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
The section on Crypto-Judaism as a historical phenomenon can be left in the article, but should be removed from the section "List of contemporary movements", namely living. Based on the near unsourced page Crypto-Judaism, it is history. Who secretly confesses today? Many are already Christians, who wanted cameback to Judaism. This is a deinformation reader that supposedly still exists today. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 14:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
conservative is more comparable to dati le'umi. Masorti, in some ways, are less religious than reform (for example, many masorti only go to prayers a few times a year as opposed to every week, like reform jews). Emdosis ( talk) 20:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
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Can someone do something about United and Federation Judaism in the UK (2 major branched of orthodox judaism here)
I object to the use of "denominations" ... I propose we use the term used in the Jewish community itself "movements" ... "Denomination" is a Christian construct and we should respect the Jewish etymology of movements. -- Jon Cates 17:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
"Some Jews felt that Enlightenment values, especially the incorporation of secular subjects into Jewish education, as well increased integration with the outside world, would bring much to Judaism. Others, however, noted that this same era allowed Jews, for the first time, the ability to easily assimilate into Christian society"
Either we take out "however", or we strengthen "allowed". As for my rephrase...well, the whole passage is weak. But I have a writer's tic against these sorts of passages... -- VKokielov 04:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is when I have to stop, look myself over, and bite my lip. I understand now it's a question of taste and, even more, quality - an argument between the writers of an encyclopedia and someone else altogether...See, if I were writing about the Jews who "howevered" the Enlightenment, I wouldn't write about them this way. It captures nothing of their sentiment; it's dry, airless. But...this is an encyclopedia. You win. :D -- VKokielov 20:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A footnote: to capture the sentiment artfully doesn't require taking a point of view. I think they call it the "third-person omniscient", that classical writer's tool. No good novelist to write this way has ever allowed himself to take a side; but no great novelist has ever written like in an encyclopedia. -- VKokielov 20:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if there was a percentage breakdown of different denominations available? I've hunted around and can't find a comparison of population figures of different denominations, especially world-wide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djbell ( talk • contribs) .
Reconstructionist Judaism does not adhere to Traditional Jewish principles any more than Pagan Judaism or Messianic Judaism. It should be moved from here to the Aternative judaism page .
We see repeated attempts to add Messianics in all articles related to Judaism. Here, User:ChristTrekker is making such effort. "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448). More quotes per request. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hey Trekker, there are very few things that all the Jewish denominations are in complete agreement on. One of the only things I can think of that all Jews seem to agree on is that Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism, but rather a form of Christianity. --
Metzenberg
07:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Secular Humanistic entry, and for good reason: there is not a more foundational principle in Judaism than the fact that there is a G-d. The two concepts are simply inseparable. It's like a car without its engine. Maybe someone has questions/comments about this, or thinks this a bad move (if so, address it here), but just like Messianic Judaism this is already listed in the Alternative Jewish movements article. Noogster 07:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This represents a new organization of a former section: Broader historical framework to explain the development of the denominations.
There is a huge literature in each of the three areas. Can anyone think of any others. -- Metzenberg 00:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This section, which was written before I started to work on this page, is unsourced, and it contains many factual errors. Therefore, I am simply going to remove the material that used to be here. Here are some examples of the factual errors that this section formerly contained:
The article says the Reconstructionists "formally separated" from the Conservative movement in the 1980s. Is that right? The Jewish Reconstructionist Federation was founded in 1955, the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College was established in 1968, and the Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association in 1974. [2] I'm not sure if any of those events might qualify as a "formal separation," but I would say that the separation was earlier than the 80s. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 01:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
This article says that Conservative Judaism was "[f]ounded in the United States." Conservative Judaism says the movement "developed in Europe and the United States." Reconstructionist Judaism describes Reconstructionism as "the only major movement of Judaism to originate in North America." It's been a long time since I studied the history of the various Jewish movements and I don't remember all the details, but I hope somebody can nail down the facts so all three articles can be made consistent with one another. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 01:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Both Encyclopedia Britannica and the Jewish Encyclopedia use the term 'Karaism'. The term 'Karaite Judaism' seems to have been invented by Karaites in recent years. As such it is not widely accepted and is in breach of WP:NPOV-- Redaktor 16:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is so riddled with OR and blatant POV pushing that it's not funny. I've been working on polishing it to remove at least the POV aspect, but other members persist on reverting my edits. I would appreciate it if they would discuss their criticisms on the talk page 1st, before reverting. Yehoishophot Oliver 00:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
1. it is not true that Orthodox Judaism recognises that it has something in common with reform; it doesn't and this is POV to suggest that it does. The article should say "appears to share" at best, instead of imposing its point of view that it does in fact share these values. 2. I never said to say that Conservative and Reform are deviations, I said to clarify that they are from the vantage point Orthodox Judaism. 3. Conservative and Reform should be referred to as "so-called denominations" because Orthodox doesn't recognise them as such. It shouldn't be stated without qualification that they are denominations, because that's imposing the Conservative and Reform POV. Yehoishophot Oliver 00:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
The Orthodox movement is not the goddamned Sanhedrin. Its practitioners don't make Halakha and they don't get to decide who is or is not a Jew or expressing Judaism in a valid way. CharlesMartel ( talk) 23:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)CharlesMartel
This table is wildly unrepresentative, giving more weight to movements representing less than 20% of Jewry in England and Israel than to the remaining 80%.-- Redaktor 10:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Saying Hasidic/Haredi Jews are more tradition than "regular" Ashkenazim in America or Moroccans in Israel is just plain wrong. Rabbi Soloveitchik comes from a line of direct succession from Rabbi Eliyahu of Vilna. Their law is more in line with Medievil traditional views. For example, the case of teffilin on Moed is in line with the views of the traditional authorities, hilkhot gedolot, the rif, the rambam, and the rosh. As opposed to the typical Hasidic/Haredi view which is in line with slightly less traditional sources such as Rabbenu Bachya and the Ari. While there are many Haredim who do accord with the more traditional view they are limited to a large section of Litvaks. I will post another example with sources later tonight. 84.228.179.49 ( talk) 11:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I propose renaming this article "Jewish religious movements". I think "Jewish denominations" is a neologism. I would also point to Relationships between Jewish religious movements. What do others think? — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 22:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The article states that: "Ashkenazi communities compose about 42% of the world's Jewish population, and Sephardic communities compose about 37%. Of the remainder, the Mizrahi Jewish communities—the "Arab" and "Persian" Jews—compose the greatest part, with about 16% of the world's Jewish population. Together these ethnic groups compose 95% of the world's Jewish population."
This is wrong. These figures are for *Israel* not the world Jewish population. World Jewish population is about 75% Ashkenazi. I will change it unless someone disagree. 85.250.74.39 ( talk) 12:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
from the article "all the sects of Hasidic Judaism have been subsumed theologically into mainstream Orthodox Judaism, " I think this is t0o strong - I am certainlyh not knowledgable to correct this, but the wiki article on hasidic judaism agrees with me. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 04:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This may interest editors of this article. I propose that we need to make a subtle, but important terminology change in this article, and in other articles closely related to this subject. The Conservative movement is a very widely used term in the Jewish community for a subset of Conservative Judaism.
The phrase Conservative Judaism refers to a rather broad religious movement within Judaism. Many statements by Conservative rabbis (especially Ismar Schorsch and Jack Wertheimer), academic Jewish scholars, such as Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen, as well as many Orthodox rabbis recognize that Conservative Judaism is more than just groups formally affiliated with the Conservative movement. Schorsch and Wertheimer have repeatedly noted that most of Conservative Judaism's most recognized success stories involve people who choose not to formally join the Conservative movement. They include in this category the Union for Traditional Judaism, the Chavurah movement, non-affiliated traditional synagogues, and many synagogues which advertise as being "non-denominational".
This article should recognize that the term Conservative movement refers to a well-defined subset of organizations and individuals that are within Conservative Judaism, such as the Rabbinical Assembly, the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, and all other organs within the LCCJ.
For a detailed discussion of this issue please see The Conservative Movement in Judaism: Dilemmas and Opportunities, SUNY Press, by Daniel J. Elazar and Rela M. Geffen. RK ( talk) 16:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note that I am not trying to "prove" that all of these movements (Chavurah, UTJ, post-denominational, etc.) are part of Conservative Judaism. In fact, no one can strictly "prove" that any particular group is "truly" Reform, or "truly" Orthodox, either! I have seen countless attacks on Orthodox groups and individuals by other Orthodox Jews; and the same within the Reform Jewish community. Rather, I am saying that we must describe the fact that these groups are widely recognized by both Orthodox and Conservative Jews as being part of Conservative Judaism, even though they are not formally a part of the Conservative Movement. Indeed, that is already what we for Orthodox Judaism: We don't pick one organizations structure (e.g. RIETS, YU and the RCA) and made that equivalent to all of Orthodox Judaism, and then label all other Orthodox groups as non-Orthodox. Rather, we have always defined Orthodox Judaism as a school of thought, with a range of theologies and practices, and then described in an NPOV fashion the groups that are widely recognized as Orthodox. Now we should do the same with Conservative Judaism. RK ( talk) 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Tikun Olam is now a basic part of all types of Judaism? After all of those years in Yeshivot of several sorts (inlcuding Y.U.), this is news to me. As far as I can tell, it is another attempt to replace the Torah with the platform of the Democratic party. Yes, some Orthodox groups have used it, but universally recognized as basic? Hardly!
Any shared values? Monotheism, I guess. (So far.) The strong should help the weak. Anything else? Maybe just stick to history and not try to find anytihng in practice. Mzk1 ( talk) 19:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I have only refrained from deleting the following paragraph because it might reflect consensus. However, I will do so soon if someone doesn't justify it:
Religiously speaking, most Jewish communities have historically held that there is no relevant role for "dogma"; rather, there is halakha (Jewish law) only. The extent to which every Jew as an individual adheres to Jewish law has long been regarded as a matter of personal preference, although the idea has always been prominent that every Jew should be as observant of the laws as they are able.
This strikes me as not only very POV, but contradicted by the Bible, the Talmud, the entire Mishnah Torah of Maimonides, and the various revival movements in Jewish history, which often contained decrees to strengthen observance.
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DayakSibiriak In this edit a lot of information was added. First of all, the addition sound a bit like advertising, and might need some reducing to be neutral. Secondly, the information was added in front of sources, giving the impression that it can be found in those same sources. I that indeed so? Debresser ( talk) 15:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't think British Israelism, Christian Identity, French Israelism, and Nordic Israelism qualify as Jewish religious movements. Editor2020 ( talk) 02:55, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
The section on Crypto-Judaism as a historical phenomenon can be left in the article, but should be removed from the section "List of contemporary movements", namely living. Based on the near unsourced page Crypto-Judaism, it is history. Who secretly confesses today? Many are already Christians, who wanted cameback to Judaism. This is a deinformation reader that supposedly still exists today. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 14:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
conservative is more comparable to dati le'umi. Masorti, in some ways, are less religious than reform (for example, many masorti only go to prayers a few times a year as opposed to every week, like reform jews). Emdosis ( talk) 20:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)