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Moved from my sandbox's talk page StevenJ81 ( talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Debresser (and others): I already have a sense how you feel about these. I don't completely disagree with you, either.
The complication is that Mimouna is really big enough, and is observed widely enough, and is famous enough, that it legitimately deserves mention here somewhere. And if you look at Talk:Jewish holidays, you'll see there is a nine-year-old request to include it. Whether it merited that inclusion then is a good question, but I think it legitimately does now. With respect to Mimouna, if I put it in the article and you then revert it, I would probably strongly object on the talk page.
So the problem is this: Without Mimouna, it's probably easy to leave them all three out. However, once you include Mimouna, how do you exclude the others? In particular, there is a lot of sensitivity around Beta Israel that as they are accepted as Jews, their customs need to be respected. So my sandbox provides what I think is a workable solution—one that is not excessively lengthy, but mentions everything without too much fuss. I propose to include it as a last section under Israeli holidays, because the Israeli government's recognition of them gives them some tie to notability.
If you would strongly prefer only including Mimouna, though, I can't really argue against that effectively. After all, while Mimouna is widely observed, Seharane and Sigd are really not (outside their core ethnic communities). If we went that way, I would probably prefer to slot Mimouna in as a subheading of Pesach. If you click where it says "[show]" just under the title "Jewish holidays" you'll see what I have in mind there.
I'd appreciate your feedback. StevenJ81 ( talk) 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
End of moved section. StevenJ81 ( talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Beneath the section's heading Main articles: ... Seharane ... appears but there isn't a Seharane article though there is one in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seharane. Mcljlm ( talk) 13:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
At this point, I have completed everything that has been on my to-do list on this article, and I think it is in pretty decent shape. Naturally, it will stay on my watchlist, but I'm going to walk away for a little while and let it sit quietly, and see what others may offer.
At a point where this goes up for WP:GA status, there are some improvements that still need doing. In particular, there are several pieces of this that could stand more/better references. In some cases they feel to me like WP:BLUE issues. This is especially true, for example, in the section on Shabbat. But the truth is that many uninvolved readers are not likely to see them that way, and we should probably do a little better. There may be other places where we might want to tweak the wording of statements or claims.
All that is best left for after the holidays, though, I think. StevenJ81 ( talk) 16:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
@ StevenJ81: At the end of the section on "work" we have
I feel uncomfortable with the wording "Shabbat restrictions are violated". Wouldn't "suspended" or "superseded" be a better word here? It's not as if the Law tells us to violate the Law. Rather, it tells us "saving a life is more important than observing Shabbat".
Oh, by the way, StevenJ81: great work! -- Thnidu ( talk) 02:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
At the most fundamental level, if there is any possibility whatsoever that some action must be taken to save a life, that action is taken immediately and without reservation, notwithstanding Shabbat restrictions.
I wish to call your attention to the fact that the title of this article, "Jewish holidays," is wrongly translated in the page's title as "Yom Tov" / "Yamim Tovim." It is a misnomer, and should have rather been translated as " Chagim Yehudim " (Heb. חגים יהודיים). This is because, in classical Hebrew (or in rabbinic Hebrew), the word "Tom Tov" has a limited meaning, and excludes some Jewish holidays, such as Purim, Hanukkah and Yom Kippur. Davidbena ( talk) 20:43, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
@ StevenJ81: When readers click on a wikilink, they expect it to take them to the article on the linked topic, if such an article exists. That is the way the vast majority of wikilinks on Wikipedia work. So, for example, if the text "Rosh Hashanah" is linked, the link normally leads to the article Rosh Hashanah. The links in this article that work differently are confusing and disorienting, and I see no benefit to them. I tried to fix that with these edits, but you reverted them. Could you please explain why?
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the use of section links altogether. There are some section links in this article that I think are appropriate. The problem is when a link that looks like it should go to Rosh Hashanah instead goes to Jewish holidays#Rosh Hashanah, for example. — Granger ( talk · contribs) 15:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
A calendar widget would be great in this article - one that is automatically updating (per month) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Rosenberger ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
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@ Debresser: Of course it was unsourced; I said as much. Part of the issue is that there just is not much evidence for a religious component to it right now. That makes its inclusion here a little dicey, and of course finding sources to prove a non-event is always a challenge. At the same time, the date does have religious significance, and that gives some justification to its inclusion. So what if I propose the following: Add it back, tag it as "citation needed", and see if that stimulates someone who knows more about it than we do to add a reference. (I think we've been pretty good about keeping this article sourced, but I'm willing to do this over a short stretch—maybe 2–4 weeks—to see if we can get some help.)
After comparing Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays to the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, there are some noted differences. Specifically, "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" and "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", is on Public holidays in Israel, but not on Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays. Furthermore, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" is not on Public holidays in Israel. I propose that both the pages Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays and the template Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays must be identical for factual consistency.
So the question becomes, are "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day", "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", and "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" truly Israeli holidays? The Knesset passing a law to note important date or personage happens from time to time, although I do not believe in most of these cases, such days are meant to be national holidays, just "observances".
As well, there are a few Knesset legislated days of remembrance (observances) absent from all, such as Herzl Day ( http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html) and Jabotinsky Day ( http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html)
In conclusion, all of these Israeli "days of remembrance" or "days of observance", I do not believe were created by the Knesset to rise to the level of Israel's actual National Holidays akin to Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah, Yom HaAliyah and Yom Yerushaliym. Thus, although I appreciate their value, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" etc... should not be on the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, nor should they be on Jewish holidays and Public holidays in Israel.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanadrubin ( talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Specific details about Herzl Day and Jabotinsky Day from Knesset legislation
|
---|
— Provided by Alanadrubin ( talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC) http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html Herzl Day shall be held once a year, on Iyar 10, the birthday of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Herzl Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Iyar 10 fall on a Sabbath, Herzl Day shall be held on the following Sunday. http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html Jabotinsky Day shall be held once a year, on Tammuz 29, the day of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's death. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium, issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Jabotinsky Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Tammuz 29 fall on a Sabbath, Jabotinsky Day shall be held on the following Sunday. 11. Once per year, on the day of Tevet 12, school programs will be dedicated to Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s achievements and Zionist vision. |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jewish holidays. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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@ 79.177.85.13: your edit does not reflect the academic consensus. Passover is a celebration of the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' slavery, not a celebration of the Israelites' slavery. I'm not trying to address the topic in this article, I just want to add 6 words, "the Exodus, the founding myth of"... to accurately represent the academic consensus. "The Exodus" is linked so people can read about it on the Exodus page. Fajkfnjsak ( talk) 16:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
At the least it's clearly not undue. There is clear overwhelming academic consensus for it being a myth. As far as unnecessary, its literally 1 word. and it reflects academic consensus. I do not see why you want so badly to avoid that 1 word? Fajkfnjsak ( talk) 04:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
This sentence is clearly misleading as to what the Exodus is:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
the Exodus is not the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt
it is a myth, biblical narrative, narrative, story, etc
we need to pick one so that we do not imply that it is a historical narrative
How about this:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the biblical narrative about the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
Fajkfnjsak (
talk)
22:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
In Exodus 12:3 God gives a command to Moses saying, "Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month [the first month] every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household." It is my understanding that this was celebrated up to the destruction of the Second Temple. What is the history of this holiday? What is the correct name for this holiday? Why did it cease? And, why is it not celebrated today? And why is it not even mentioned on this page? 50.206.176.154 ( talk) 17:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
I deleted the Jewish Gift Place link. What appeared in the Section as "2016-2017 Jewish Calendar" and led to Hebrew Calendar/Jewish Calendar ~ 5780 (2019-20) is superfluous in view of the other links. Mcljlm ( talk) 01:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I find that in this article, there is entirely too much detail presented to the reader before the article lists the holidays.
The subject of the article is the Jewish holidays. LIST THEM FIRST. Then get to the details. 2601:200:C000:1A0:9173:441:7651:4179 ( talk) 16:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
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Moved from my sandbox's talk page StevenJ81 ( talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Debresser (and others): I already have a sense how you feel about these. I don't completely disagree with you, either.
The complication is that Mimouna is really big enough, and is observed widely enough, and is famous enough, that it legitimately deserves mention here somewhere. And if you look at Talk:Jewish holidays, you'll see there is a nine-year-old request to include it. Whether it merited that inclusion then is a good question, but I think it legitimately does now. With respect to Mimouna, if I put it in the article and you then revert it, I would probably strongly object on the talk page.
So the problem is this: Without Mimouna, it's probably easy to leave them all three out. However, once you include Mimouna, how do you exclude the others? In particular, there is a lot of sensitivity around Beta Israel that as they are accepted as Jews, their customs need to be respected. So my sandbox provides what I think is a workable solution—one that is not excessively lengthy, but mentions everything without too much fuss. I propose to include it as a last section under Israeli holidays, because the Israeli government's recognition of them gives them some tie to notability.
If you would strongly prefer only including Mimouna, though, I can't really argue against that effectively. After all, while Mimouna is widely observed, Seharane and Sigd are really not (outside their core ethnic communities). If we went that way, I would probably prefer to slot Mimouna in as a subheading of Pesach. If you click where it says "[show]" just under the title "Jewish holidays" you'll see what I have in mind there.
I'd appreciate your feedback. StevenJ81 ( talk) 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
End of moved section. StevenJ81 ( talk) 13:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Beneath the section's heading Main articles: ... Seharane ... appears but there isn't a Seharane article though there is one in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seharane. Mcljlm ( talk) 13:04, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
At this point, I have completed everything that has been on my to-do list on this article, and I think it is in pretty decent shape. Naturally, it will stay on my watchlist, but I'm going to walk away for a little while and let it sit quietly, and see what others may offer.
At a point where this goes up for WP:GA status, there are some improvements that still need doing. In particular, there are several pieces of this that could stand more/better references. In some cases they feel to me like WP:BLUE issues. This is especially true, for example, in the section on Shabbat. But the truth is that many uninvolved readers are not likely to see them that way, and we should probably do a little better. There may be other places where we might want to tweak the wording of statements or claims.
All that is best left for after the holidays, though, I think. StevenJ81 ( talk) 16:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
@ StevenJ81: At the end of the section on "work" we have
I feel uncomfortable with the wording "Shabbat restrictions are violated". Wouldn't "suspended" or "superseded" be a better word here? It's not as if the Law tells us to violate the Law. Rather, it tells us "saving a life is more important than observing Shabbat".
Oh, by the way, StevenJ81: great work! -- Thnidu ( talk) 02:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
At the most fundamental level, if there is any possibility whatsoever that some action must be taken to save a life, that action is taken immediately and without reservation, notwithstanding Shabbat restrictions.
I wish to call your attention to the fact that the title of this article, "Jewish holidays," is wrongly translated in the page's title as "Yom Tov" / "Yamim Tovim." It is a misnomer, and should have rather been translated as " Chagim Yehudim " (Heb. חגים יהודיים). This is because, in classical Hebrew (or in rabbinic Hebrew), the word "Tom Tov" has a limited meaning, and excludes some Jewish holidays, such as Purim, Hanukkah and Yom Kippur. Davidbena ( talk) 20:43, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
@ StevenJ81: When readers click on a wikilink, they expect it to take them to the article on the linked topic, if such an article exists. That is the way the vast majority of wikilinks on Wikipedia work. So, for example, if the text "Rosh Hashanah" is linked, the link normally leads to the article Rosh Hashanah. The links in this article that work differently are confusing and disorienting, and I see no benefit to them. I tried to fix that with these edits, but you reverted them. Could you please explain why?
To be clear, I'm not objecting to the use of section links altogether. There are some section links in this article that I think are appropriate. The problem is when a link that looks like it should go to Rosh Hashanah instead goes to Jewish holidays#Rosh Hashanah, for example. — Granger ( talk · contribs) 15:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
A calendar widget would be great in this article - one that is automatically updating (per month) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Rosenberger ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Jewish holidays. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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@ Debresser: Of course it was unsourced; I said as much. Part of the issue is that there just is not much evidence for a religious component to it right now. That makes its inclusion here a little dicey, and of course finding sources to prove a non-event is always a challenge. At the same time, the date does have religious significance, and that gives some justification to its inclusion. So what if I propose the following: Add it back, tag it as "citation needed", and see if that stimulates someone who knows more about it than we do to add a reference. (I think we've been pretty good about keeping this article sourced, but I'm willing to do this over a short stretch—maybe 2–4 weeks—to see if we can get some help.)
After comparing Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays to the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, there are some noted differences. Specifically, "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" and "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", is on Public holidays in Israel, but not on Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays. Furthermore, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" is not on Public holidays in Israel. I propose that both the pages Public holidays in Israel and Jewish holidays and the template Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays must be identical for factual consistency.
So the question becomes, are "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day", "Memorial day for Yitzhak Rabin", and "Victory Day over Nazi Germany" truly Israeli holidays? The Knesset passing a law to note important date or personage happens from time to time, although I do not believe in most of these cases, such days are meant to be national holidays, just "observances".
As well, there are a few Knesset legislated days of remembrance (observances) absent from all, such as Herzl Day ( http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html) and Jabotinsky Day ( http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html)
In conclusion, all of these Israeli "days of remembrance" or "days of observance", I do not believe were created by the Knesset to rise to the level of Israel's actual National Holidays akin to Yom HaAtzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, Yom HaShoah, Yom HaAliyah and Yom Yerushaliym. Thus, although I appreciate their value, "Mizrahi Expulsion Remembrance Day" etc... should not be on the Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays, nor should they be on Jewish holidays and Public holidays in Israel.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alanadrubin ( talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
Specific details about Herzl Day and Jabotinsky Day from Knesset legislation
|
---|
— Provided by Alanadrubin ( talk • contribs) 7:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC) http://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/Herz_Law_eng.html Herzl Day shall be held once a year, on Iyar 10, the birthday of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Binyamin Zeev Herzl. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Binyamin Zeev Herzl shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Herzl Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Iyar 10 fall on a Sabbath, Herzl Day shall be held on the following Sunday. http://knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotinsky/eng/law_eng.html Jabotinsky Day shall be held once a year, on Tammuz 29, the day of Ze'ev Jabotinsky's death. On this day - (1) A state memorial service shall be held on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem; (2) In IDF camps and in the schools time shall be devoted to learning about the achievements and Zionist vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky; (3) A symposium shall be held in Jerusalem in memory of Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The symposium shall be organized by the Public Council. At the symposium, issues from the world of Zionism and in the spirit of the vision of Ze'ev Jabotinsky shall be discussed. (b) The Knesset shall hold a special debate to mark Jabotinsky Day on its exact date, or a date close to it. (c) Should Tammuz 29 fall on a Sabbath, Jabotinsky Day shall be held on the following Sunday. 11. Once per year, on the day of Tevet 12, school programs will be dedicated to Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s achievements and Zionist vision. |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Jewish holidays. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
@ 79.177.85.13: your edit does not reflect the academic consensus. Passover is a celebration of the Exodus, the founding myth of the Israelites' slavery, not a celebration of the Israelites' slavery. I'm not trying to address the topic in this article, I just want to add 6 words, "the Exodus, the founding myth of"... to accurately represent the academic consensus. "The Exodus" is linked so people can read about it on the Exodus page. Fajkfnjsak ( talk) 16:48, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
At the least it's clearly not undue. There is clear overwhelming academic consensus for it being a myth. As far as unnecessary, its literally 1 word. and it reflects academic consensus. I do not see why you want so badly to avoid that 1 word? Fajkfnjsak ( talk) 04:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
This sentence is clearly misleading as to what the Exodus is:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
the Exodus is not the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt
it is a myth, biblical narrative, narrative, story, etc
we need to pick one so that we do not imply that it is a historical narrative
How about this:
"Passover commemorates the Exodus, the biblical narrative about the liberation of the Israelite slaves from Egypt.[45][46]"
Fajkfnjsak (
talk)
22:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
In Exodus 12:3 God gives a command to Moses saying, "Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month [the first month] every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household." It is my understanding that this was celebrated up to the destruction of the Second Temple. What is the history of this holiday? What is the correct name for this holiday? Why did it cease? And, why is it not celebrated today? And why is it not even mentioned on this page? 50.206.176.154 ( talk) 17:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
I deleted the Jewish Gift Place link. What appeared in the Section as "2016-2017 Jewish Calendar" and led to Hebrew Calendar/Jewish Calendar ~ 5780 (2019-20) is superfluous in view of the other links. Mcljlm ( talk) 01:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I find that in this article, there is entirely too much detail presented to the reader before the article lists the holidays.
The subject of the article is the Jewish holidays. LIST THEM FIRST. Then get to the details. 2601:200:C000:1A0:9173:441:7651:4179 ( talk) 16:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)