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Interesting article, but it seems a bit ORish. Is there an academic source that clearly states there were Jewish Cossacks? Certainly during Chmielnicki Uprising Cossacks massacred many Jews, so I find it rather hard to believe that they would have many Jews in their ranks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Weird stuff. Most of the article is a paraphrase of the article in the Jewish encyclopedia with some corrections and additions. It is not known whether the Cossack Jews were Ashkenazy Jews or Krymchaks or Karaims or baptised. However it is a start to find out something that was not well known or a popular topic. Bandurist 02:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the off-topic stuff, please move it asap to other articles so that it does not get lost because the general stuff about Jewish-Ukrainian relations does not belong to this much a narrower scope article. -- Irpen 05:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
This appears to be little more than a monograph, attempting to prove that Jewish Cossacks existed.
There is nothing in that article about Jewish Cossacks per se. Language? Culture? Place within Cossack society? History of how they came to be Cossacks?
In other words, nothing that would make this an article is actually present.
Have I missed something? Jd2718 01:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Check this out. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_200009/ai_n8917384 What do you think 16:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is the full quotation: Simon Sebag Montefiore "Prince of Princes; The Life of Potemkin", page 394 "Potemkin' decided to arm the Jews against the Turks. This 'singular project', probably his Jewish friend Zeitlin's idea, spawned in some rabbinical debate with the Prince, started as a cavalry squadron raised among the Jews of his Krischev estate. In December, he created a Jewish regiment called the Israelovsky, a word reminiscient of the Izmailovsky Guards. But that was where the similarities ended. Commanded by Prince Ferdinand of Brunswick, their ultimate aim was to liberate Jerusalem for the Jews, just as Potemkin was to conquer Constantinople for the Orthodox. This sign of Potemkin's unique philo-semitism and of Zeitlin's influence was an awkward idea given Russian and especially Cossack anti-semitism, but it was surely the first attempt by a foreign power to arm the Jews since Titus destroyed the Temple. The Prince wanted his Israelovsky to be half-infantry, half-cavalry, the latter to be Jewish Cossacks with Zaporogian lances: 'we already have one squadron', observed Ligne to Joseph II. Thanks to the shortness of their stirrups, their beards come down to their knees and their fear on horseback makes them like monkeys.' Joseph, who had loosened the restrictions of his own Jews, was probably amused. By March 1788, thirty-five of these bearded Jewish Cossacks were being trained. Soon there were two squadrons, and Ligne told Potemkin there were plenty more in Poland. Ligne was skeptical, but he admitted he had seen excellent Jewish postmasters and even postillions. The Israelovsky evidently went out on patrol with the cavalry because Ligne wrote that they were as terrified of their own horses as those of the enemy. But five months later Potemkin cancelled the Israelovsky. Ligne joked that he did not dare continue them for fear of 'getting mixed up with the Bible.' So ended this rare experiment that says a great deal about Potemkin's originality and imaginaton. Ligne thought the Jewish Cossacks were 'too ridiculous'. Instead, Potemkin concentrated on a 'great number of Zaporogians and other Cossack volunteers' pouring in to form the new Black Sea Host." Footnote: "One wonders what happened to those Jewish Cossacks. Six years later, in 1794, Polish Jews raised a force of 500 light cavalry to fight the Russians. Their colonel Berek (Berko) Joselewicz joined Napoleon's Polish Legion in 1809. Did any of Potemkin's Jewish Cossacks fight for Napoleon?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllenHansen ( talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This appears to be a hash-up of one paragraph articles, mostly about individual Jews who happened to become Cossacks. The lack of any unifying information (culture, language, special role within Cossack society (?), how they became Cossacks, etc) gives away that this is not a single article.
Rather than tell us about Jewish Cossacks, the article is devoted to showing that they existed. This is a good sign that the notability of the topic as a single topic should be doubted. Jd2718 ( talk) 15:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I tagged this article as original research. By stringing together a list of unrelated individual anecdotes and facts, mostly from marginally reliable sources, this article is, taken as a whole, a single piece of original research, a synthesis. (this seems inevitable, as the topic is not notable) Jd2718 ( talk) 15:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest cutting down on the accusatory rhetoric. The article clearly lacks focus and is devoted to the J-UA relations in general, not the Jewish Cossacks of which there were none. -- Irpen 18:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Interesting article.
ЄВРЕЇ-КОЗАКИ by Yuri Mytsyk. But the interesting stuff is the bibliography
- S. 103.
- К., 1930.
No 1 about Jewsih Cossacks was published in 1890 by an eminent scholarly magazine.
No 12 is also quite an important journal from 1930.
The topic is notable, although it certainly is a topic that has not received the recognition that it should have received. Interesting is that sources are not just in Ukrainian or Russian, but also in German and Polish. Bandurist ( talk) 21:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Just reviewing many of the above sources one comes to the conclusion that the Zaprozhian Cossacks were not racists, because they included many peoples into the ranks of the cossacks ... but they did wind up being extremely hostile to all non-orthodox religions, in particular the Poles and the Uniates. One has to re-assess the the happenings of Khmelnytsky's times, as at that time they were even killing Greek Catholics, ie Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Christians who had come into UNion with the Catholic church. Bandurist ( talk) 20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't he the prototype (or his actions) for Taras Biulba? Bandurist ( talk) 02:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
See sources in uk:Ілляш Караїмович. Karaimovych wa also called the Armenian. No need to cutt of information you dont like.-- 202.71.90.139 ( talk) 18:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
You've checked badly: Літопис Самовидця. видання підготував Я. І. Дзира. — Київ: «Наукова думка», 1971. — 208 с. (The cronicle of eyewitness) -
This is OR. You really need a secondary source that states they are the same person. Bandurist ( talk) 00:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The article must be deleted because it is absurd. Like "Jewish SS Waffen in Wehrmacht". It is not ORish, it is absurd. Wikipedia is not a place for sensational hypotesis. Vadvir ( talk) 07:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
[1] - neither the Scottishness of Krzywonos nor the Frankist roots of Mickiewicz are something that is certain. The Scottish Krzywonos thing, AFAIK, comes from a single document, where it's mentioned only in passing. So, the article should NOT prevent these things as certain. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand what the following sentence means:
"According to the special investigation of the Russian Ministry of Military Affairs, which did not study Orthodox Catholics and Old Believers of Jewish/Karaite descent, Old Don Jewish Cossacks[5] and Judeo-Christian communities, these Jewish Cossacks per se constituted 0,1% of all Cossacks and had significant presence among Don and Kuban Cossacks only in 1879."
Could the author (from Saint-Petersburg) please explain? Specifically does "these Jewish Cossacks" refer to "Old Don Jewish Cossacks[5] and Judeo-Christian communities" or to "Orthodox Catholics" or to "Old Believers of Jewish/Karaite descent"? By "Orthodox Catholics" does the author mean "Orthodox Christians" or "Uniates" ( /info/en/?search=Uniat#.22Uniate.22)? And what does "Old Don Jewish Cossacks" mean? 72.74.255.146 ( talk) 04:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The new version of this article is simply insane. There are some useful interesting facts added, but there are also some striking, undocumented claims, written in an extremely bad English. I propose to revert back to the older version, and then add new facts, step by step. 74.104.168.24 ( talk) 21:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Not only that, but also inexplicably referring to me as Lute Heil Hitler, an insult.-- Lute88 ( talk) 21:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
As protection is now lifted I will restore the latest version with a lead of a decent length in understandable English. If MVanova can explain his suggested additions in a way the rest of us can understand, and support them with sources, that would be helpful. I fully support the view that a "brutal [and] uncompromising" pasting of an incomprehensible lead is not beneficial for the article. Best, Sam Sailor Sing 07:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
The idea that Zaporozhian Cossacks had been Amshen Vakhabbis and their example inspired the Tzarnayev brothers IS AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. The authors of this research are to be interrogated by the FBI. Moreover even the followers of both Armenian Apostolic faith and Armenian Uniat faith, being Christians, might not join the Cossack Kosh. They were to be baptized into either Roman Catholic church or Orthodox Catholic church for this. The idea that only Galichina SS Division Cossacks are real Cossacks is an ORIGINAL RESEARCH. This division was created in 1943 to wage a war against Anglo-American forces during the WWII, not against Russians. Moreover, there were no real Cossacks in this division. Cossacks were on the same side as the USA and UK in two world wars in general. Jewish Cossacks are usually Cossacks of Jewish faith. Just they usually were the guards of Russian emperors and their heirs during their visits on Don, because other Cossacks were used to ask for equal rights for Old-Believers and other democratic reforms during their guard service. Jewish Cossacks were not discriminated contrary to other Jews and to Old-Believers and were considered more reliable than other Cossacks. If Cossacks of Jewish descent are called Jewish Cossacks then the majority of Don and Kuban Cossacks can be called such ones according to OUN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.196.208 ( talk) 12:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC) The idea that there have never been Cossacks in Russia is AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. The idea that the only Cossack branch having documents about Jews in their community is the Cossacks of Ukraine but Don Cossacks in spite of the Lugansk division of the Don Host famous by its bilingual Russian-Ukrainian Cossacks are not Cossacks of Ukraine is A PURE ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Vladimir Dal explained many times that contrary to Lugansk Cossacks Zaporozhian Cossacks had not been Ukrainian ones. The author of the first Ukrainian vocabulary, though the government prohibited to publish it, signed his works Lugansk Cossack because these bilingual Cossacks had been known by their love to etimology. Many Ukrainians were enlisted to Kuban Cossacks only after Cossack resettlement in the Kuban region. The idea that there were no Jewish Cossacks in 18th-20th centuries is AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. General Denikin mentioned many such Cossacks in his memoirs. Their numbers were hundreds -thousands times more than numbers of Cossacks, described in the article, which were not Jewish Cossacks usually but only Cossacks of Jewish descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.249.219 ( talk) 19:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
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It mentions documents “… written in Hebrew and Ukrainian…” for one it’s best to mention that the Hebrew language during the period was used for religious practices and not regularly as Israel has it now. The language would be yiddish and likely the Ukrainian dialect of it . The yiddish alphabet is part of hebrew but it is still different from it In the Ukrainian people’s republic, Yiddish was a state language as it History of the Jews in Ukraine Yiddish dialects History of the Jews in Ukraine#Ukrainian People's Republic Shelly098 ( talk) 18:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jewish Cossacks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Interesting article, but it seems a bit ORish. Is there an academic source that clearly states there were Jewish Cossacks? Certainly during Chmielnicki Uprising Cossacks massacred many Jews, so I find it rather hard to believe that they would have many Jews in their ranks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Weird stuff. Most of the article is a paraphrase of the article in the Jewish encyclopedia with some corrections and additions. It is not known whether the Cossack Jews were Ashkenazy Jews or Krymchaks or Karaims or baptised. However it is a start to find out something that was not well known or a popular topic. Bandurist 02:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the off-topic stuff, please move it asap to other articles so that it does not get lost because the general stuff about Jewish-Ukrainian relations does not belong to this much a narrower scope article. -- Irpen 05:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
This appears to be little more than a monograph, attempting to prove that Jewish Cossacks existed.
There is nothing in that article about Jewish Cossacks per se. Language? Culture? Place within Cossack society? History of how they came to be Cossacks?
In other words, nothing that would make this an article is actually present.
Have I missed something? Jd2718 01:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Check this out. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_200009/ai_n8917384 What do you think 16:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is the full quotation: Simon Sebag Montefiore "Prince of Princes; The Life of Potemkin", page 394 "Potemkin' decided to arm the Jews against the Turks. This 'singular project', probably his Jewish friend Zeitlin's idea, spawned in some rabbinical debate with the Prince, started as a cavalry squadron raised among the Jews of his Krischev estate. In December, he created a Jewish regiment called the Israelovsky, a word reminiscient of the Izmailovsky Guards. But that was where the similarities ended. Commanded by Prince Ferdinand of Brunswick, their ultimate aim was to liberate Jerusalem for the Jews, just as Potemkin was to conquer Constantinople for the Orthodox. This sign of Potemkin's unique philo-semitism and of Zeitlin's influence was an awkward idea given Russian and especially Cossack anti-semitism, but it was surely the first attempt by a foreign power to arm the Jews since Titus destroyed the Temple. The Prince wanted his Israelovsky to be half-infantry, half-cavalry, the latter to be Jewish Cossacks with Zaporogian lances: 'we already have one squadron', observed Ligne to Joseph II. Thanks to the shortness of their stirrups, their beards come down to their knees and their fear on horseback makes them like monkeys.' Joseph, who had loosened the restrictions of his own Jews, was probably amused. By March 1788, thirty-five of these bearded Jewish Cossacks were being trained. Soon there were two squadrons, and Ligne told Potemkin there were plenty more in Poland. Ligne was skeptical, but he admitted he had seen excellent Jewish postmasters and even postillions. The Israelovsky evidently went out on patrol with the cavalry because Ligne wrote that they were as terrified of their own horses as those of the enemy. But five months later Potemkin cancelled the Israelovsky. Ligne joked that he did not dare continue them for fear of 'getting mixed up with the Bible.' So ended this rare experiment that says a great deal about Potemkin's originality and imaginaton. Ligne thought the Jewish Cossacks were 'too ridiculous'. Instead, Potemkin concentrated on a 'great number of Zaporogians and other Cossack volunteers' pouring in to form the new Black Sea Host." Footnote: "One wonders what happened to those Jewish Cossacks. Six years later, in 1794, Polish Jews raised a force of 500 light cavalry to fight the Russians. Their colonel Berek (Berko) Joselewicz joined Napoleon's Polish Legion in 1809. Did any of Potemkin's Jewish Cossacks fight for Napoleon?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllenHansen ( talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This appears to be a hash-up of one paragraph articles, mostly about individual Jews who happened to become Cossacks. The lack of any unifying information (culture, language, special role within Cossack society (?), how they became Cossacks, etc) gives away that this is not a single article.
Rather than tell us about Jewish Cossacks, the article is devoted to showing that they existed. This is a good sign that the notability of the topic as a single topic should be doubted. Jd2718 ( talk) 15:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I tagged this article as original research. By stringing together a list of unrelated individual anecdotes and facts, mostly from marginally reliable sources, this article is, taken as a whole, a single piece of original research, a synthesis. (this seems inevitable, as the topic is not notable) Jd2718 ( talk) 15:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest cutting down on the accusatory rhetoric. The article clearly lacks focus and is devoted to the J-UA relations in general, not the Jewish Cossacks of which there were none. -- Irpen 18:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Interesting article.
ЄВРЕЇ-КОЗАКИ by Yuri Mytsyk. But the interesting stuff is the bibliography
- S. 103.
- К., 1930.
No 1 about Jewsih Cossacks was published in 1890 by an eminent scholarly magazine.
No 12 is also quite an important journal from 1930.
The topic is notable, although it certainly is a topic that has not received the recognition that it should have received. Interesting is that sources are not just in Ukrainian or Russian, but also in German and Polish. Bandurist ( talk) 21:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Just reviewing many of the above sources one comes to the conclusion that the Zaprozhian Cossacks were not racists, because they included many peoples into the ranks of the cossacks ... but they did wind up being extremely hostile to all non-orthodox religions, in particular the Poles and the Uniates. One has to re-assess the the happenings of Khmelnytsky's times, as at that time they were even killing Greek Catholics, ie Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Christians who had come into UNion with the Catholic church. Bandurist ( talk) 20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't he the prototype (or his actions) for Taras Biulba? Bandurist ( talk) 02:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
See sources in uk:Ілляш Караїмович. Karaimovych wa also called the Armenian. No need to cutt of information you dont like.-- 202.71.90.139 ( talk) 18:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
You've checked badly: Літопис Самовидця. видання підготував Я. І. Дзира. — Київ: «Наукова думка», 1971. — 208 с. (The cronicle of eyewitness) -
This is OR. You really need a secondary source that states they are the same person. Bandurist ( talk) 00:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The article must be deleted because it is absurd. Like "Jewish SS Waffen in Wehrmacht". It is not ORish, it is absurd. Wikipedia is not a place for sensational hypotesis. Vadvir ( talk) 07:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
[1] - neither the Scottishness of Krzywonos nor the Frankist roots of Mickiewicz are something that is certain. The Scottish Krzywonos thing, AFAIK, comes from a single document, where it's mentioned only in passing. So, the article should NOT prevent these things as certain. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 04:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand what the following sentence means:
"According to the special investigation of the Russian Ministry of Military Affairs, which did not study Orthodox Catholics and Old Believers of Jewish/Karaite descent, Old Don Jewish Cossacks[5] and Judeo-Christian communities, these Jewish Cossacks per se constituted 0,1% of all Cossacks and had significant presence among Don and Kuban Cossacks only in 1879."
Could the author (from Saint-Petersburg) please explain? Specifically does "these Jewish Cossacks" refer to "Old Don Jewish Cossacks[5] and Judeo-Christian communities" or to "Orthodox Catholics" or to "Old Believers of Jewish/Karaite descent"? By "Orthodox Catholics" does the author mean "Orthodox Christians" or "Uniates" ( /info/en/?search=Uniat#.22Uniate.22)? And what does "Old Don Jewish Cossacks" mean? 72.74.255.146 ( talk) 04:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
The new version of this article is simply insane. There are some useful interesting facts added, but there are also some striking, undocumented claims, written in an extremely bad English. I propose to revert back to the older version, and then add new facts, step by step. 74.104.168.24 ( talk) 21:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Not only that, but also inexplicably referring to me as Lute Heil Hitler, an insult.-- Lute88 ( talk) 21:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
As protection is now lifted I will restore the latest version with a lead of a decent length in understandable English. If MVanova can explain his suggested additions in a way the rest of us can understand, and support them with sources, that would be helpful. I fully support the view that a "brutal [and] uncompromising" pasting of an incomprehensible lead is not beneficial for the article. Best, Sam Sailor Sing 07:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
The idea that Zaporozhian Cossacks had been Amshen Vakhabbis and their example inspired the Tzarnayev brothers IS AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. The authors of this research are to be interrogated by the FBI. Moreover even the followers of both Armenian Apostolic faith and Armenian Uniat faith, being Christians, might not join the Cossack Kosh. They were to be baptized into either Roman Catholic church or Orthodox Catholic church for this. The idea that only Galichina SS Division Cossacks are real Cossacks is an ORIGINAL RESEARCH. This division was created in 1943 to wage a war against Anglo-American forces during the WWII, not against Russians. Moreover, there were no real Cossacks in this division. Cossacks were on the same side as the USA and UK in two world wars in general. Jewish Cossacks are usually Cossacks of Jewish faith. Just they usually were the guards of Russian emperors and their heirs during their visits on Don, because other Cossacks were used to ask for equal rights for Old-Believers and other democratic reforms during their guard service. Jewish Cossacks were not discriminated contrary to other Jews and to Old-Believers and were considered more reliable than other Cossacks. If Cossacks of Jewish descent are called Jewish Cossacks then the majority of Don and Kuban Cossacks can be called such ones according to OUN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.196.208 ( talk) 12:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC) The idea that there have never been Cossacks in Russia is AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. The idea that the only Cossack branch having documents about Jews in their community is the Cossacks of Ukraine but Don Cossacks in spite of the Lugansk division of the Don Host famous by its bilingual Russian-Ukrainian Cossacks are not Cossacks of Ukraine is A PURE ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Vladimir Dal explained many times that contrary to Lugansk Cossacks Zaporozhian Cossacks had not been Ukrainian ones. The author of the first Ukrainian vocabulary, though the government prohibited to publish it, signed his works Lugansk Cossack because these bilingual Cossacks had been known by their love to etimology. Many Ukrainians were enlisted to Kuban Cossacks only after Cossack resettlement in the Kuban region. The idea that there were no Jewish Cossacks in 18th-20th centuries is AN ORIGINAL RESEARCH. General Denikin mentioned many such Cossacks in his memoirs. Their numbers were hundreds -thousands times more than numbers of Cossacks, described in the article, which were not Jewish Cossacks usually but only Cossacks of Jewish descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.66.249.219 ( talk) 19:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Jewish Cossacks. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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It mentions documents “… written in Hebrew and Ukrainian…” for one it’s best to mention that the Hebrew language during the period was used for religious practices and not regularly as Israel has it now. The language would be yiddish and likely the Ukrainian dialect of it . The yiddish alphabet is part of hebrew but it is still different from it In the Ukrainian people’s republic, Yiddish was a state language as it History of the Jews in Ukraine Yiddish dialects History of the Jews in Ukraine#Ukrainian People's Republic Shelly098 ( talk) 18:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)