![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
someone needs to look at this article write now its heavily antisemtic and is filled with quotes suggesting that there is merit to the ideal that the Soviets were controlled by Jews. -- Mao1949 18:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
How is the cover image of the Protocols alleging that the Bolshevik govt is "Jewish" is irrelevant here: [1]. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 04:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The Protocols as a reference? Why not add Mein Kampf as a reference as well? But seriously this source should be deleted as it's not needed to demonstrate a valid point and one can assume is only included for anti-semitic purposes. Actually I will delete it right away, let this be the note of explanation.-- Caranorn 00:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
1) Jews were not allowed in the Russian Empire before the Partitions of Poland and were "acquired" with the territory. 2) There is no direct relation between Belorussia (white Russia) and the White movement. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 05:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Given the very well verified and very prominent role of Jews in the rise of the Soviet Union and its satellite states in Eastern Europe, this article needs to be expanded massively. There are only a few paragraphs on this page when there have bee many volumes written on this subject. Maybe we can move some information here from the History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union and other articles dealing with Jewish involvement in Communism in other countries around the world (particularly European ones) to help fill this article out? -- 172.162.239.214 20:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the aerticle expanded. I wanted to read if Jews were overly represented in the early communist leadership or not, and if so by how much, and if so what reasons were the cause of this socially. Instead the article is incomplete and insists the idea is a myth merely because it may offend some Jews. The logic: A is offensive to Jews ergo A must be false is not very firm. Can we someone please expand the article to be informative rather than an exercise in Jewish perenoia. 88.153.121.143 21:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Palestinians, the likes of Hamas, call the Israelis (who came after 1881, or the first Alya), European colonialists, while the Ruskis call them "those who stayed behind" (meaning after the Pogroms). Interesting. The implicit RACIST point is that the Jews of Russian were and are foreigners, aliens, and that they should, and must, "behave themselves" as guests!!! These same people also forget that there were NO JEWS in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE - until the Partition of Poland. Accordingly, the foreign and alien element was the Russian Empire in the former much more tolerante " Polish Republic," and Polish Empire. -- Ludvikus 03:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
<<..."NO JEWS in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE"...>> ...haven't you ever heard of the Pale of Settlement (?!), which had always spilled over in to huge portions of Western Russia (if not officially, then unofficially). -- 172.131.206.93 04:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
--- You definitely sound ignorant at best, or like a antisemite Ruski at worst.
The majority of Europe's Jews lived in the above entity - for a very long time. Accordingly, it was the Russians, in the 19th century, after Poland's Partition/dismemberment, which acquired these Jews by their conquest - in war. So the foreigner, aliens, there, were not Jews but Russians!!!
Souns to me like a lot of the contributors are working very hard to dispell the "myth" that jews were largely behind the bolshevik revolution, due to sensitivities about being anti-semitic. Largely smacks of bias and does a disservice to people who come to read about the truth on wikipedia. Just tell it like it is. Don't spend most of the article trying to discredit that even though 90% of the bolshevik leadership was jewish during the communist revolution doesn't mean it was a jewish revolution. That's a load of crap and you know it. What percentage of jews made up russia and what percent made up the communist leadership in the early days? If you want to minimized anti-semitism quit trying to hide historical fact and tell it like it is. When stuff like this is hidden it only increased people's suspicions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.227.15 ( talk) 04:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no reference to the actual use of Jewish Bolshevism
In the alternative to deletion, it should be merged with the above, where it's to receive a brief paragraph, or so, of descrption. -- Ludvikus 10:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is why (it falls under the heading as follows):
The following is a list of pejorative political epithets; meaning, words or phrases used to mock or insult certain political views and their supporters. An explanation is also given for each term's intended meaning and original source (where known). The list is not comprehensive, and perhaps never will be, due to the multitude of political epithets that have been and continue to be created. Please note that the majority of these epithets are inherently biased terms and some are considered highly inflammatory.
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 10:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not take personal offense - User:Caranorn, you sound sincere, but unaware of the antisemitic nature and sources of the allegation that Jews, rather than Russians, were/are responsible for Communist Russia.
Again, the Pale of Settlement was not historic Russia - do I really need to give you an exact citation to prove this to you? And if so, it was the Russian who was the foreigner? The Pale of Settlement was created to keep " Holy Mother Russia" clean, pure, and "unpoluted" by Jews!!! That's where Hitler learned his stuff - with the effective invention of the Pogrom in 1881 - right after the assassination of the Tsar who "liberated" the wonderful Russian peasants 20 years before. Now these free Russian realized what they had to do - get rid of the Christ killers by Pogroms. Am I getting the "complex theme" right? Is this the explanation of the bad behavior, un-Russian behavior, of the Jews?
Yours truly, Ludvikus 15:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jew Watch is an antisemitic sight on the WEB which currently uses and subscribes to the theme that Bolshevism IS Jewish: [2]
-- Ludvikus 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC) says that here's the source of Jews and Bolshevism - Jew Watch:
-- Ludvikus 16:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC) SAYS: Here's a reference for you all - if you really want to be accurate, READ IT!!!
Call # *ZP-*PBM n.c. 128 no. 1 Author Valentin, Hugo, 1888-1963. Title The Jews and Bolshevism [microform] / by Hugo Valentin. Imprint [New York : American Jewish Committee, 1936?] URL for this record LOCATION CALL # STATUS Humanities- Jewish Division *ZP-*PBM n.c. 128 no. 1 Division Humanities- Jewish Division Descript 11 p. ; 22 cm. Note Cover title. "A chapter from Antisemitism by Hugo Valentin, published by the Viking Press". Microfilm. New York, N.Y. : New York Public Library, [197-]. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. (MN: *ZZ-16578) Subject Communism -- Soviet Union. Jews -- Soviet Union. Antisemitism. Alt title Antisemitism: historically and critically examined.
-- Ludvikus 17:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC) says here's a quote of a source on the "theme" coonecting Jews and Bolshevism:
as the night to day, is the thrice hotter Jewish fire of ' Communism.'" William Striker
The source of this Jewish connection theory is Russian and Nazi propaganda. It is contained in the above so-called "Protocol" published in 1934 in the 300-page tome of the Protocols of Zion issued by the SO-CALLED PATRIOTIC PUBLISHING CO.. It occurs on pages 297-298 of that antisemitic plagiarism. And the reference there is to an alleged Russian newspaper, Prizyu, issue of 5 February 1920. There it has a reference to an alleged "interesting document," in Hebrew, dated December 19919, and "found in the pocket of the dead Jew Zunder, the Bolshevic Commander of the 11th Sharp-shooter Battalion, throwing light on the secret organizations of Jewry in Russia." Apparently the "dead Jew" missed his mark. The quote that's most relevant (besides being "interesting") is the following antisemitic diatribe:
Bronstein ( Trotsky), Apfelbaum ( Zinovieff), Rosenfeld ( Kameneff), Steinberg —— all of them are like unto thousands of other true sons of Israel.
That's the scholarship behind the "theme" of Jewish Bolshevism Ludvikus 18:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jewish Bolsheviks, like Negro this, or Negro that, and the above, are all equally offensive, racist expressions. Why must there be a justification for a "Jew" being a Boshevik as opposed to a "Ruski"? Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 18:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Rhetorical questions (I'm not actually asking them - no offense intended to my Russian brothers and sisters - even if I am renounced for being related to Jesus Christ, and they are not):
of your gentle racism. You say many Jews. But what's your criteria? At what point do you get too many Jews? Don't you realized that the Palestinians claim that the Jews do not belong in Palestine? Don't you realize they say they belong in Europe, especially Russia, since most of the came from Russia? Or do you think ALL THE JEWS BELONG IN ISRAEL?
To expose the Racist nature of this notion consider this: Chinese, under their Communist system, are prospering, far surpassing Russia in the material progress, or standard of living. Could that be because there were not enough Jews among the Bolsheviks, and far too many Ruskis?
What does one of the top scholars of Jewish-Russian history in modern times (
Yuri Slezkine) have to say about all of this?
G'day. -- 172.161.179.12 07:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised that the editors are unaware of the fundamental Antisemitic and Racist nature of the term, "many Jews were Bolsheviks"! How many is many? Is "2 Jews too many"?
I suspect this kind of racism comes to the English Wikipedia from Russia where the Jews are to be blamed for Bolshevism.
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 03:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, see subtext, narratology, hermeneutics, semiotics, etc. -- Ludvikus 03:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 06:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Consider other general syntagms: "dirty Jew", "bloodthirsty Jew", "perfidious Jew". ← Humus sapiens ну ? 04:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Jewish Bolshevism" topic is important elsewhere beyond Russia or the USSR. For example Stalin himself described Mátyás Rákosi, the local communist dictator between 1949-1955 as the "first jewish king of Hungary". In fact the large amount of top position jews in the opressive hungarian communist party regime contributed to pogromic events during the 1956 hungarian revolution. In fact even today right-wing anti-semitism in Hungary is largely motivated by anti-communist anti-jewry, rather than genetical based anti-jewry (i.e. nazi ideology). The memory of communist opression is still alive, pre-WWII era has faded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.226.227.153 ( talk) 14:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Is there an article on that subject - equivalent to Polish communism, Communism in Colombia, or Category:Communism in the United Kingdom? I.e. not dealing with conspiracy theories, but with nonpartisan analysis of views on communism among Jewish communities?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Where is the source for the following statement:
"In the mid-1930's, under the leadership of Genrikh Yagoda (who was Jewish), the Jewish presence in the secret police briefly became dominant: of the people surrounding Yagoda, 39% were Jewish and only 30% Russian. The immediate predecessors to Yagoda in that same position were also Jewish : Iosif Unschlicht and Meier Trilisser."
Yagoda's predecessor was Vyacheslav Menzhinsky (he wasn't Jewish). The "39%" claim is highly suspect
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
someone needs to look at this article write now its heavily antisemtic and is filled with quotes suggesting that there is merit to the ideal that the Soviets were controlled by Jews. -- Mao1949 18:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
How is the cover image of the Protocols alleging that the Bolshevik govt is "Jewish" is irrelevant here: [1]. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 04:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The Protocols as a reference? Why not add Mein Kampf as a reference as well? But seriously this source should be deleted as it's not needed to demonstrate a valid point and one can assume is only included for anti-semitic purposes. Actually I will delete it right away, let this be the note of explanation.-- Caranorn 00:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
1) Jews were not allowed in the Russian Empire before the Partitions of Poland and were "acquired" with the territory. 2) There is no direct relation between Belorussia (white Russia) and the White movement. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 05:27, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Given the very well verified and very prominent role of Jews in the rise of the Soviet Union and its satellite states in Eastern Europe, this article needs to be expanded massively. There are only a few paragraphs on this page when there have bee many volumes written on this subject. Maybe we can move some information here from the History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union and other articles dealing with Jewish involvement in Communism in other countries around the world (particularly European ones) to help fill this article out? -- 172.162.239.214 20:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to see the aerticle expanded. I wanted to read if Jews were overly represented in the early communist leadership or not, and if so by how much, and if so what reasons were the cause of this socially. Instead the article is incomplete and insists the idea is a myth merely because it may offend some Jews. The logic: A is offensive to Jews ergo A must be false is not very firm. Can we someone please expand the article to be informative rather than an exercise in Jewish perenoia. 88.153.121.143 21:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Palestinians, the likes of Hamas, call the Israelis (who came after 1881, or the first Alya), European colonialists, while the Ruskis call them "those who stayed behind" (meaning after the Pogroms). Interesting. The implicit RACIST point is that the Jews of Russian were and are foreigners, aliens, and that they should, and must, "behave themselves" as guests!!! These same people also forget that there were NO JEWS in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE - until the Partition of Poland. Accordingly, the foreign and alien element was the Russian Empire in the former much more tolerante " Polish Republic," and Polish Empire. -- Ludvikus 03:22, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
<<..."NO JEWS in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE"...>> ...haven't you ever heard of the Pale of Settlement (?!), which had always spilled over in to huge portions of Western Russia (if not officially, then unofficially). -- 172.131.206.93 04:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
--- You definitely sound ignorant at best, or like a antisemite Ruski at worst.
The majority of Europe's Jews lived in the above entity - for a very long time. Accordingly, it was the Russians, in the 19th century, after Poland's Partition/dismemberment, which acquired these Jews by their conquest - in war. So the foreigner, aliens, there, were not Jews but Russians!!!
Souns to me like a lot of the contributors are working very hard to dispell the "myth" that jews were largely behind the bolshevik revolution, due to sensitivities about being anti-semitic. Largely smacks of bias and does a disservice to people who come to read about the truth on wikipedia. Just tell it like it is. Don't spend most of the article trying to discredit that even though 90% of the bolshevik leadership was jewish during the communist revolution doesn't mean it was a jewish revolution. That's a load of crap and you know it. What percentage of jews made up russia and what percent made up the communist leadership in the early days? If you want to minimized anti-semitism quit trying to hide historical fact and tell it like it is. When stuff like this is hidden it only increased people's suspicions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.227.15 ( talk) 04:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no reference to the actual use of Jewish Bolshevism
In the alternative to deletion, it should be merged with the above, where it's to receive a brief paragraph, or so, of descrption. -- Ludvikus 10:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is why (it falls under the heading as follows):
The following is a list of pejorative political epithets; meaning, words or phrases used to mock or insult certain political views and their supporters. An explanation is also given for each term's intended meaning and original source (where known). The list is not comprehensive, and perhaps never will be, due to the multitude of political epithets that have been and continue to be created. Please note that the majority of these epithets are inherently biased terms and some are considered highly inflammatory.
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 10:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not take personal offense - User:Caranorn, you sound sincere, but unaware of the antisemitic nature and sources of the allegation that Jews, rather than Russians, were/are responsible for Communist Russia.
Again, the Pale of Settlement was not historic Russia - do I really need to give you an exact citation to prove this to you? And if so, it was the Russian who was the foreigner? The Pale of Settlement was created to keep " Holy Mother Russia" clean, pure, and "unpoluted" by Jews!!! That's where Hitler learned his stuff - with the effective invention of the Pogrom in 1881 - right after the assassination of the Tsar who "liberated" the wonderful Russian peasants 20 years before. Now these free Russian realized what they had to do - get rid of the Christ killers by Pogroms. Am I getting the "complex theme" right? Is this the explanation of the bad behavior, un-Russian behavior, of the Jews?
Yours truly, Ludvikus 15:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jew Watch is an antisemitic sight on the WEB which currently uses and subscribes to the theme that Bolshevism IS Jewish: [2]
-- Ludvikus 16:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC) says that here's the source of Jews and Bolshevism - Jew Watch:
-- Ludvikus 16:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC) SAYS: Here's a reference for you all - if you really want to be accurate, READ IT!!!
Call # *ZP-*PBM n.c. 128 no. 1 Author Valentin, Hugo, 1888-1963. Title The Jews and Bolshevism [microform] / by Hugo Valentin. Imprint [New York : American Jewish Committee, 1936?] URL for this record LOCATION CALL # STATUS Humanities- Jewish Division *ZP-*PBM n.c. 128 no. 1 Division Humanities- Jewish Division Descript 11 p. ; 22 cm. Note Cover title. "A chapter from Antisemitism by Hugo Valentin, published by the Viking Press". Microfilm. New York, N.Y. : New York Public Library, [197-]. 1 microfilm reel ; 35 mm. (MN: *ZZ-16578) Subject Communism -- Soviet Union. Jews -- Soviet Union. Antisemitism. Alt title Antisemitism: historically and critically examined.
-- Ludvikus 17:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC) says here's a quote of a source on the "theme" coonecting Jews and Bolshevism:
as the night to day, is the thrice hotter Jewish fire of ' Communism.'" William Striker
The source of this Jewish connection theory is Russian and Nazi propaganda. It is contained in the above so-called "Protocol" published in 1934 in the 300-page tome of the Protocols of Zion issued by the SO-CALLED PATRIOTIC PUBLISHING CO.. It occurs on pages 297-298 of that antisemitic plagiarism. And the reference there is to an alleged Russian newspaper, Prizyu, issue of 5 February 1920. There it has a reference to an alleged "interesting document," in Hebrew, dated December 19919, and "found in the pocket of the dead Jew Zunder, the Bolshevic Commander of the 11th Sharp-shooter Battalion, throwing light on the secret organizations of Jewry in Russia." Apparently the "dead Jew" missed his mark. The quote that's most relevant (besides being "interesting") is the following antisemitic diatribe:
Bronstein ( Trotsky), Apfelbaum ( Zinovieff), Rosenfeld ( Kameneff), Steinberg —— all of them are like unto thousands of other true sons of Israel.
That's the scholarship behind the "theme" of Jewish Bolshevism Ludvikus 18:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Jewish Bolsheviks, like Negro this, or Negro that, and the above, are all equally offensive, racist expressions. Why must there be a justification for a "Jew" being a Boshevik as opposed to a "Ruski"? Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 18:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Rhetorical questions (I'm not actually asking them - no offense intended to my Russian brothers and sisters - even if I am renounced for being related to Jesus Christ, and they are not):
of your gentle racism. You say many Jews. But what's your criteria? At what point do you get too many Jews? Don't you realized that the Palestinians claim that the Jews do not belong in Palestine? Don't you realize they say they belong in Europe, especially Russia, since most of the came from Russia? Or do you think ALL THE JEWS BELONG IN ISRAEL?
To expose the Racist nature of this notion consider this: Chinese, under their Communist system, are prospering, far surpassing Russia in the material progress, or standard of living. Could that be because there were not enough Jews among the Bolsheviks, and far too many Ruskis?
What does one of the top scholars of Jewish-Russian history in modern times (
Yuri Slezkine) have to say about all of this?
G'day. -- 172.161.179.12 07:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised that the editors are unaware of the fundamental Antisemitic and Racist nature of the term, "many Jews were Bolsheviks"! How many is many? Is "2 Jews too many"?
I suspect this kind of racism comes to the English Wikipedia from Russia where the Jews are to be blamed for Bolshevism.
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 03:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, see subtext, narratology, hermeneutics, semiotics, etc. -- Ludvikus 03:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 06:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Consider other general syntagms: "dirty Jew", "bloodthirsty Jew", "perfidious Jew". ← Humus sapiens ну ? 04:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
"Jewish Bolshevism" topic is important elsewhere beyond Russia or the USSR. For example Stalin himself described Mátyás Rákosi, the local communist dictator between 1949-1955 as the "first jewish king of Hungary". In fact the large amount of top position jews in the opressive hungarian communist party regime contributed to pogromic events during the 1956 hungarian revolution. In fact even today right-wing anti-semitism in Hungary is largely motivated by anti-communist anti-jewry, rather than genetical based anti-jewry (i.e. nazi ideology). The memory of communist opression is still alive, pre-WWII era has faded. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.226.227.153 ( talk) 14:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Is there an article on that subject - equivalent to Polish communism, Communism in Colombia, or Category:Communism in the United Kingdom? I.e. not dealing with conspiracy theories, but with nonpartisan analysis of views on communism among Jewish communities?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Where is the source for the following statement:
"In the mid-1930's, under the leadership of Genrikh Yagoda (who was Jewish), the Jewish presence in the secret police briefly became dominant: of the people surrounding Yagoda, 39% were Jewish and only 30% Russian. The immediate predecessors to Yagoda in that same position were also Jewish : Iosif Unschlicht and Meier Trilisser."
Yagoda's predecessor was Vyacheslav Menzhinsky (he wasn't Jewish). The "39%" claim is highly suspect