"Although Jews account for the majority of people in Jerusalem, they only account for 31 percent of the children under age fifteen." That is not what is written in the source. What is written is that Jewish people under 15 amount to 31% of the total Jewish population of Jerusalem. Please correct. Benjil ( talk) 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"Schools for Palestinians in Jerusalem and other parts of Israel have been criticized for offering a lower quality education than those catering to Israeli Jewish students."
I have a problem with this line. 1) It takes the POV that the Palestinians are a nation. While I personally do not really care as nor the Israelis or the Arabs speak English or really care about its definations of a nation. However, the NPOV policy dictates that statements can not be worded like this. 2) The sentence in inconsitence. It starts off with "for Palestinians..." then continues with "in Israel..." This is like saying "Schools for Chinese in New York and other parts of America have been criticized for offering a lower quality education than those catering to American Christian students."
I mean COME ON! 203.206.234.139 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Whether any of you choose to accept it or not, the Palestinian people are a nation so keep your racist remarks to yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.135.125 ( talk) 05:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
DEFINITIONS OF VANDALISM: I changed the 'etymology section to 'Hebrew etymology', and the history section to 'Jewish history,' and the culture section to 'Israeli culture.' Why? Because each section talked explicitly about Hebrew etymology, Jewish history, and Israeli culture. And this was considered vandalism. I wanted to change the title of culture to Israeli culture since there was nothing about culture on the eastern side of Jerusalem. Until someone adds something about Arab culture in Jerusalem to the site (there is a famous theater and a few cultural/arts centers which are quite prominent as well), the heading is misleading. If someone does add something about the Arab population to that heading, then I think the heading 'culture' would be appropriate. The same goes for the other sections. For instance, the history section leaps from 1200 to 1500 in a sentence, then leaps a sentence later to the mandate period. 700 years in two sentences. Muslim rule between the 7th and 11th centuries gets 3 sentences. There is also a wee little bit about the Sasanids and Romans and the Crusades (and I suppose that that makes my title change slightly inaccurate) but other than that 90% of the article is Jewish history. Alright, what is going on with Wikipedia? Who is in charge of the Jerusalem section, i.e. who decides that something is vandalism? Whether one feels that Israel is that indivisible capital of Israel or the potential capital of Palestine or an international city, the fact remains that Israel's history is not simply Jewish, nor its culture.... Whether you like it or not Arabs live there too, and have, for quite some time, and the way they shaped the face of the place is highly relevant to wikipedia visitors wanting to learn as much as possible about this amazing city. 1 more point - I understand that I or someone else could add in the info that is missing. I am not an expert on Jerusalem. But I will be attempting to do so over the next period and I ask that people not vandalize my entries, as I have experienced a great deal of that in the short time I have been editing wiki entries, particularly related to our wonderful country, Israel. Thanks. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 18:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
JERUSALEM AS "CAPITAL" OF ISRAEL This article is far too close to a pro-Israel and anti-Palestine viewpoint to qualify as "neutral". Just to illustrate: "Today, Jerusalem remains a bone of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem (captured in the 1967 Six-Day War) has been particularly controversial. " Understatement of the decade! As per the numerous UN resolutions, it is more accurate to say occupation for the weasel word and meaningless "annexation" and illegal for the cowardly "controversial". It is only "controversial" for Israel and its handful of "allies" (i.e, the US plus its colonies, Guam etc...). By the article's own admission, only two countries maintain embassies in Jerusalem because the rest of the world view Israel's occupation (not annexation, whatever that means) as illegal. This fact should be made clear from the article's first paragraph and first sentence, not buried way down the article in paragraph 3! Furthermore, if we are going to have a section called "Palestinian Claims" then, ould also amend the section immediately above called "Capital of Israel" to something less biased, like Israeli Claims. To summarize, this article is NOT neutral because it legitimizes Israel's illegal occupation of the city acquiesces in its "claims" that Jerusalem is its "eternal, undivided capital". -- Peachespeaches ( talk) 10:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This article does noes not legitimize Israels occupation, it just tells you what is going on there, which is completly unbiased. Israel does own Jerusalem, its not just thier 'claim'. Their an Independant country, its no longer Palestine, it's Israel!I agree some parts are biased, but the should not be an 'Israeli claims' John26razor ( talk) 15:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
In the demographics section, we see a population figure of 743,000. At the end of that first paragraph, we see 180,000 households with an average of 3.8 people. Well, 3.8 times 180,000 equals 684,000, more than 60,000 less than the population figure. Any thoughts on how to reconcile the discrepancy? I assume that "average" here refers to the mean; if however it is the median, then perhaps the answer is that there is quite a bit of skew in the distribution. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 14:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I had placed this sentence under "history" which was then deleted:
"On May 28, the Arab Legion gained control over the Old City; all of its Jewish inhabitants were either expelled or taken prisoner."
No reason for the deletion was given; I don't see how this violates NPOV if that was the concern.
I reverted that edit and re-placed this sentence.
As I am a relatively new editor, I would appreciate feedback.
Drmikeh49 ( talk) 22:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
what about the greek latin Hiërosolyma, where does it fit in the etymology section? Another thing is, does the Palestine state have a emblem or symbol for the city of Jerusalem? It looks rather Israelian in the article to me. Mallerd ( talk) 22:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Why are the Greek and Latin names omitted? Mallerd ( talk) 14:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi and thank you, well this paragraph is from an earlier version of this article. I understand what you are saying, I guess the reason the Greek and Latin were in the article earlier was because they were part of the Roman and "Byzantine" Empire which had respectively Latin and Greek as official languages. Anyway, for cities who are in countries that don't have a language as official language, the name of another language is still used. For example, many cities in Romania, Czechia and Poland have German names as well. Perhaps this is due a large minority who speak German in those countries, but still. There are many Jews from around the world, perhaps there is one that is really significant. Just a thought, good night now Mallerd ( talk) 21:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that most dates in this article mention BCE and CE instead of BC and AD. I'm not a Wikipedia pro, but it seems to me that this is inconsistent with most other articles in Wikipedia, as well as general usage. Why does the article use this notation? -- Spacedoggie ( talk) 02:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
FYI, I opened a thread about Jerusalem's state as Israel's capital here. Imad marie ( talk) 12:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
TELAVIV is the capital of Israel. Its where the embassies are. Jerusalem has no status as the capital period. So please delete the line that says it is. That is a lie. (Brian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.54 ( talk) 22:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The situation is clear: Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law, but it is not recognized internationally as part of Israel (it is, instead, a "corpus separatum", neither Israeli nor Palestinian, under international law). Stating "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" in Wikipedia's voice is clearly biased towards the Israeli position, and biased against international law. That's not acceptable. It is notable that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law, and we should by all means state that, but the omission of the qualification "under Israeli law" is unacceptable within WP:NPOV. -- dab (𒁳) 08:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Jerusalem as the capital of israel under israeli law is meaningless as its an INTERNATIONAL law issue. (Brian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.53 ( talk) 05:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
This discussion does not belong on Talk:Jerusalem, but on the WP:ANI noticeboard. < eleland/ talk edits> 23:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
You couldn't make this stuff up.
It seems that a pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopaedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged.
See the emails of the group here: http://electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf
Khalilgibran ( talk) 15:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me for deleting the 'collapse' feature. It is not THAT extended a discussion and is a VERY relevant discussion and should be directly viewed/accessed when people check the talk page. It seemed, in my opinion, as if someone preferred the discussion was out of sight. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 05:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Or rather, I thought I deleted the 'collapsing' feature. But I see no changes. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
This new paragraph in the "Palestinian claims" section raises some questions. First and foremost: which Palestinians are referred to in the second sentence? I doubt it is currently possible for any residents of the West Bank who are not already residents of Jerusalem to move to Jerusalem. So who are these 'migrants"? Where do they come from? We might add that under current law it is impossible for an Israeli who marries someone from the West Bank to bring that spouse to Israel as a resident/citizen. In general, we might try to keep in mind that newspapers don't always get it right: just because some idiot reporter writes something, it doesn't mean it can be treated as fact. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 18:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Would someone explain to me please why this paragraph is relevant to the section? Why is Palestinians seeking jobs in Jerusalem relevant to the Palestinian claim of Jerusalem? Imad marie ( talk) 06:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Those who know: please add to East Jerusalem info to the culture section. I would add it myself but I only have the very basics. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 07:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
This article lacks history about the early Muslim Arab rule of the city, the Crusader rule of the city and the Mamluk rule. I added info on Umar's pact but without a reference. Also, why are the years put into the headings. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 19:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll get the ref and maybe in the coming days I'll some info on those periods. I don't know much about the culture of East Jerusalem, but yes it should be here. I'm going to remove the years from the headings, it just clutters everything. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
This article doesn't seem to have a "Communication" section. I think it would be a worthwhile addition. Just a suggestion. Bless sins ( talk) 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Given that the leading sentence is designed to summarize the entire article, don't you think that 'disputed capital' is a better lead than simply 'capital of Israel,' given the highly contentious nature of this and that the lead tends to read like a nationalist disgrace.
Crum375 noted that 'A sovereign country determines its own capital -- it can't be decided or imposed externally.' but to simply lead with what a sovereign nation determines leads to the nationalistic lead that I and others have a problem with. A sovereign nation intrinsically relies on its recognition of sovereignty, both wholly and over certain territories for it to be a sovereign nation. Given that no other sovereign nation recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and many academic articles mention that in the UN's eyes Jerusalem is not even a part of [sovereign] Israel.
So Crum375, I wonder if the United States, as a sovereign nation decided that Israel was a part of the United States, if that’s how we would lead with the Israel article. Something along the lines of Israel is a suzerain of the United States of America. Clearly, sovereignty is given by and relies on external powers, none of which in this case have recognised the legitimacy of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Further, sovereignty does not intrinsically bestow its holder with the ability to decide the view of the international community on places and incidents within or outside of their territory. Why does Wikipedia lead with such a misleading opening sentence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colourinthemeaning ( talk • contribs) 13:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is that Jerusalem is not the internationally recognized capital of Israel. Its status is yet to be determinded in negotiations with a future Palestinian-Arab government of an independent and unoccupied Palestine. The personal opinions of Jews or Israelis who want to depict the situation in a way sympathetic to them, for obvious reasons, cannot dictate the content of an internationally accessible article on wikipedia. This is no pro-Israeli propaganda platform and if they want to post their minority opinion they should mark it as that. Cush ( talk) 14:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
p.s. The CIA factbook is one source. The BBC and Encarta is another. When good sources are in conflict, one is biased to favour one over the other. One mediates for a compromise. To favour one source over another reliable source is to show one's bias, and politics. Nishidani ( talk) 18:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Nishidani, as an administrator my opinion carries no extra weight, but I do know that we operate by consensus. In this case, there was a prolonged discussion about this specific issue, and the current language reflects consensus. If you'd like to change that consensus, the discussion would need to be broad and include many people. If they all (or a reasonable majority) agree to the change, then that can be done. In my own humble opinion, the CIA factbook is a very neutral source, unlike the BBC, for example that is not. Crum375 ( talk) 18:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Nishidani, the point was made by others above. Every country in the world declares its own capital. Some (or many) countries have disputes over their territory and other issues. But each country has a selected capital, and it is never dictated externally, they just decide on their own. That there are disputes about this is clear, and we note those disputes in an extensive footnote and elsewhere. The point again is: if Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel, then what city is? Crum375 ( talk) 00:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the US, Europe and most countries in the world Tel Aviv is the recognized capital. Could you provide a list of which countries have their embassy to Israel in Jerusalem? Strongbrow ( talk) 01:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Most countries in the world, including the US, do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and the Palestinians also have claims on the city as their capital. At the very least wikipedia should acknowledge both claims and recognize that the global community doesn't recognize either at the moment. The current opening paragraph takes sides by stating as a fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Strongbrow ( talk) 01:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I just realized I don't know the answer to a very interesting question: before 1967, where did other countries locate their embassies in Israel? One frequent claim made in relation to this issue is that many countries decline to put their embassies in Jerusalem because of the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem after 1967 - hence the difficulty of recognizing "Jerusalem" (not just what was once the Israeli part) as the capital. This might imply that, prior to 1967, the embassies were in Jerusalem and then were relocated effectively in protest of the occupation. Alternatively, the problem might have deeper roots, going back to designation of Jerusalem as an "international city" (whatever that means) - such that embassies were never located in Jerusalem, in protest of the results of the 1948 war. Can anyone tell me which scenario holds? I'm not sure how it might bear on this discussion, but anyway a better understanding of history wouldn't hurt. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 11:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Since people only seem to be quoting from the CIA factbook or BBC, I thought it would help the discussion to add a couple more reliable sources and see what they say as to the capital of Israel. The Canadian government Canadian Foreign Affairs Country Insights page lists the capital as Jerusalem. Here is Britians country profile Leppi ( talk) 17:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The CIA's position on the issue, or the US position, is of no relevance, as there can be expected no objectivity from that corner. Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel by the United Nations, i.e. the international community. That is all that matters and that defines the legal status of the city. The leading sentence of the article MUST be altered.
Cush (
talk)
07:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Cush, to quote you from above:"That's the common expression on internet fora for followers of Judaism and citizens of Israel who push for certain issues to be seen their way." I'm assuming you mean by 'their way' a Palestinian-disappearing perspective. I should not have to explain to you that "Jew Crew" implies that all Jews share the same perspective or are in cahouts with each other working always towards the same aims coming from the same perspective. How ridiculous can such an implication get? Do you have any idea how different Jews can be from one another? (I, for example, am a follower of Judaism and a citizen of Israel, yet most of my efforts involve re-inserting legitimate Palestinian history and perspective that has been omitted or deleted, to balance out an exclusive Jewish perspective {which leaves us with inaccurate wiki entries}). "Jew Crew" not only suggests that all Jews are the same but points quickly to 'world Jewish conspiracy' theories (which I should not have to mention led to the displacement of the Jewish population of Europe and directly impacted Palestinian national aspirations in turn).
'The city has a history that goes back as far as the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world.[5] '
History =prehistory. Major construction only began in the Middle Bonze Age (11-111), which on a global scale puts it into a middle range.
Actually, it is not, as popular literature says, anywhere near one of the oldest cities of the world, and the ref. is not reliable. Aharon Kellerman in his Society and Settlement: Jewish Land of Israel in the Twentieth Century 1993 p.122 is closer to the truth in arguing that Jerusalem is probably the oldest among current capital cities around the world (Not quite true. It's roughly on a par with Athens. Damascus beats it by two thousand years. Jerusalem is 10th on the List of oldest continuously inhabited cities, which has huge lacunae), cf.Damascus. Archeologically, Jericho sets the pattern for this list with an establishment around 9000 BC. Jerusalem comes several thousand years after that, and there are a very large number of continuously inhabited urban areas all over the world going back thousands of years earlier than Jerusalem's first substantial settlement. I suggest someone looks into proper academic sources to get this right. Nishidani ( talk) 15:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Assuming all you say is right, it may need to be updated in the History section. Also, to remove it from the "one of the oldest" list, you'd have to show it's not within a reasonable percentile (a few percent tops) in age, or that there are reliable sources calling that common classification false. Again, the issue is not the specific age or how far down the list it is, but the percentile grouping, i.e. whether or not it is among the oldest X percent of cities, where X is small. Crum375 ( talk) 17:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't disagree with most of your points about professionalism and I agree that we need to strive for the best possible quality. But I think in this case, adding the generic phrase "one of the oldest cities" is harmless. If you had a specific reliable source refuting it, by showing it is a hoax, and that actually it was founded in the middle ages, we would need to deal with it. However, given the fact that even by most conservative sources it is thousands of years old, and there being no known refutation to the widely repeated claim, I don't see a problem in keeping it. If you do care about this issue, I suggest you collect more sources and improve the history section. Crum375 ( talk) 19:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss below this line. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think a change of the lead is absolutely essential to ensure this article takes both a NPOV and, as wikipedia policy states, summarises the rest of the article. Give me some time to read over the previous discussions though, and I will present my arguments back in this section. Cheers Colourinthemeaning ( talk) 11:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. We should create a part of the article discussing the Islamic and Christian eras. This is a vital part of the History of Jerusalem. I cannot do this though until the article becomes unblocked. John26razor —Preceding unsigned comment added by John26razor ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the advice, I'm new here. I've just joined Wikipedia. I know a lot about Jerusalem, but I have no idea how to put it on anywhere. This is a huge discussion page, I am surprised that discussionS here could last for more than a year!!! There is controversy on how to write this article and the perspective it has to be in. I'll try to do the best I can. I can see Cush thinks Jews have one perspective of the palestinians. He is very much wrong by using the quote 'Jew Crew' John26razor-- John26razor ( talk) 17:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to try unprotection now. If the edit war reoccurs it will be reprotected. Please discuss before making any controversial claims; also remember WP:3RR. I will enforce blocks if it's broken. So, be careful, and hope all goes well. :) PeterSymonds (talk) 13:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we add a brief section summarizing development plans in Jerusalem, as has been done with Haifa (which actually needs more info added). For example, the Museum of Tolerance in Kikar Ha Chatulim, the Silwan settlement, and the Imperial Hotel/other Old City properties by Jaffa Gate, among others. I will add later when the page is unblocked. Please add to the list I just threw out there if you know about this kind of thing. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 22:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that this matter, of using "annexation" and "asserting sovereignty" in the article is much more serious than the "Jerusalem is the capital" debate. The latter is a question of neutrality, of undue weight, of phrasing and semantics. But as for the first, the article is simply baldly stating as fact something which is untrue and uncitable, and jarring.
That statement is certainly not "uncitable". See [4] and [5] (sorry, can't find the original for the second source). There are, of course, many books that use this terming, which you can easily find through Google Books, among other places. -- tariqabjotu 17:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Nishidani, I have enormous respect for Lustick (his article "Israel as a non-Arab State" is brilliant, and his book on the "war on terror" is even better). But on this issue I'm not sure how far brilliance would take us. Sociologists sometimes quote an aphorism by W.I. Thomas: if something is perceived as real, then it is real in its consequences. Even if Lustick is right - that the legality of annexation is problematic - the pervasive belief that annexation has happened, even if legally erroneous, might be what counts for an encyclopaedic understanding of East Jerusalem at this stage. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 19:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
.we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities
My two cents: as much as I understand both points of view on the question of 'capital' versus 'disputed capital,' it also seems to me that people are getting awfully distracted. Fight this to the bitter end, that's your business. But in the meantime, the article suffers from a dearth of info on East Jerusalem. I think the outside wiki reader would get a lot more from an article which actually addresses the day-to-day of Arab life in Jerusalem as much it currently addresses the day-to-day of Jewish life. And this is largely absent. So I would ask those who have the info to spend as much time filling in skeletal parts as they do debating one sentence, however vital it may be. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 23:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the protection will be lifted in a minute; it's holding up numerous other changes. What general sanction do you suggest for the sentence? My thought would be an only warning, followed by a short block of 3 hours, increasing each time the sentence is replaced. This would last for, say, a week, or however long until the discussion is definitely concluded. Thoughts? PeterSymonds (talk) 06:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Good, now could someone please add an FA-worthy source for the paragraph about Umar and the Muslim conquest I added a few days ago? It's in the main Islamic rule section. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 07:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead.
I think it is now generally conceded that annexation is inappropriate and should be replaced?
Etymology
I wrote what follows below after reading the section and consulting notes I had made. I now find, purely by accident, that
Zero0000 has done a fine piece of work summing up the real evidence, as opposed to the spurious or folklorish etymologies the text is strewn with now (all POV and
WP:Undue Weight as it stands) and has more or less written the basics for the section I say is missing, and yet no one seems to have harvested it.
Jerusalem's etymology. This place is mysterious. Info is handed out on a platter and the answer is silence.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The whole section should be written in chronological order, with reliable sources on the philology of the word. I.e.It is a semitic word predating the rise of the Hebrew dialect by 1000 years. The etymologies for it in Hebrew are folk etymologies that arose after the word, a foreign word was assimilated into the language. The major etymology proposed for this pre-Israelite toponym, is ‘foundation’ (yārā) of the god Shalem', though other suggestions exist.
(1) Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Egyptian hieroglyphic, 19th.-18th century BCE)
(2) Urušalim 14th-13th century Akkadian cuneiform
(3) Uršalimmu/Urusilimmu (Assyrian)
(4) Yerushalayim/Yrušlym (Hebrew)
(Omitting Yevus (Judges. 19:10) the city as dwelt in by Jebusites (perhaps a Hittite tribe, unless they are a clan linked to the Amorites cf.Yabusi'um) before David conquered it).
Surely someone properly qualified in Semitic languages could chip in here? This is supposed to have FA status, with the quality that demands.
History
Para 1. (Roshlamem or Rosh-ramen) are incorrectly transcribed. As in the etymological section to be written, these should be Rushalimum or Urushalimum.
Para 1. There is no mention whatsoever of the first recorded 'king' or ruler of the city, the first person history records as associated with the city. This is a serious oversight. See
Abdi-Heba
Para 1. Some reference is required to the frequent suggestion that the strong shift in climate from 16th. made that area arid, and this may account for the demographic collapse of the Middle Bronze city, which then remained virtually deserted for some centuries 15-13th cent.BC.
The local potentate the Jebusite(Hittite?)
Araunah, from whom David bought the threshing-floor which is supposed to be the foundation-site of the Temple Solomon built should perhaps also be mentioned.
(1) The text reads: 'From the days of Constantine until the Seventh Century, Jews were banned from Jerusalem.[42]'
The source is Michael Zank's snippet article which actually says:
' Jews were banned from entering the city until the advent of Islam, when they were readmitted.
Why is it necessary to restore the original wording? Because if Jews were banned from Jerusalem, and only readmitted with the islamic conquest (untrue, they were readmitted in significant numbers by the pre-islamic Persian conquest), the reader is left wondering how decades before the Islamic conquest, Jews within the city assisted the Persians in 614 to gain entry to and conquer Jerusalem. Zank’s text is a slovenly, unreferenced thumbnail sketch, and overlooks the fact that both Julian the Apostate around 360s, and Eudokia later, briefly changed the policy and invited Jews back into the city. A community existed there, the one the next paragraph explains was involved in the Persian takeover.
Rewrite therefore ‘From the days of Constantine, apart from two brief periods, Jews were banned from entering the city.’
(2) Para. 'Roman Persian Wars. This is a mess.
(a)'push into Byzantine' should read 'push into the Byzantine Empire'. Byzantine is an adjective, is solecistic and linking it to the proper phrasing, while retaining the error, is weird.
(b) The text reads:
'and advancing through Syria, Sassanid Generals Shahrbaraz and Shahin decided.
contains a dangling clause, contextually (see preceding line) which should be placed after 'Shahrbaraz and Shahin decided'.
Emend therefore to
‘the Sassanid Generals Shahrbaraz and Shahin, on advancing through Syria, decided’.
(c)The text reads:
'Sassanids to begin constructing a naval fleet and its (Jerusalem?naval fleet?) capture would undoubtedly weaken the Byzantine-Empire's overseas strength
(c.i)Sassanids to construct a fleet (fleets are implicitly always naval in contexts dealing with clashing empires, to say 'naval fleet' is pleonastic here)
(c.ii)'its capture would undoubtedly weaken the Byzantine-Empire's overseas strength'
This is completely meaningless (i) 'undoubtedly' is an editorial comment, for 'forseeably' (ii)the capture of jerusalem would not in itself weaken Byzantium’s oversea(')s (= 'maritime' dominance in the eastern Mediterranean)strength (iii) the comment is odd enough to require a
WP:RS.
I expect what the editors intended to say was
'As a key city overlooking routes that connected the Mediterranean Sea to the hinterland, Jerusalem would provide a strategic launching point for gaining dominance over the littoral, in order to allow the Sassanids to construct a fleet that might forseeably challenge Byzantium’s dominance of the eastern Mediterranean.
Nishidani ( talk) 12:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
-capital of Israel-
The text has:
'By Israeli law, Jerusalem is the de-jure capital of Israel, and de-facto contains the parliament, government offices, Supreme Court, President's quarters, and Prime Ministers's quarters.'
the words de-facto (properly = de facto) are supererogatory, and meaningless and can be removed. De-jure = de jure, and is again pleonastic, since 'By Israel law' is sufficient to establish the point made.
- 'recent excavations of a large stone structure' requires a citation, as noted. The required citation is:
John J.Collins, A Short Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, Abridged and revised ed. Augsburg Fortress Press, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2007 pp.128f.
Nishidani ( talk) 17:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Section.Palestinian Claims I'm sure this sounds wonderful in a tourist brochure, for the lovey-dovey starry-eyed image, but it's odd at least to a reader of Haaretz, which even today remarks:-
'Earlier this month, when Israel marked 41 years since the reunification of Jerusalem, residents of the eastern part of the city saw no cause for celebration. Like 'most of the Arab homes in East Jerusalem, residents of the neighborhood of A-Tur are forced to live without infrastructure, paved roads and regular garbage collection. Roughly one quarter of a million Arabs, all of whom hold Israeli identification cards, live in East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after the 1967 Six-Day War. According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, 130 thousand of them have no running water.' Haaretz 23/6/2008
No mention of withdrawal by bureraucratic fiat of residential rights if you choose to study overseas etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. But then sacred cities must present their best face. Nishidani ( talk) 14:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Section 1967. Moroccan Quarter. I note Nomoskedaskcity has added a note from rashid K's article. Rather than have a generic and unsupported text about reluctant residents killed (stuff like that should be removed, since it is a strong claim and needs immediate textual support, and whoever asserts these things in a text like this should do so with reliable evidence at hand), it perhaps would be better to note that 'approximately 1,000 residents (were) evicted' to enlarge access to wall, as the same Khalidi noted in his classic Palestinian Identity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness, Columbia UP 1997 ed. p.17 Nishidani ( talk) 12:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
-Nonsense sentences-
The last line in the lead section reads:
" Palestinians consider East Jerusalem the capital of their future state"
The above sentence rings wrong to anybody good at grammar. The word "consider" in particular is a problem, because "consider" is present tense; and also the definition of "consider" doesn't go well with the grammar of the rest of the sentence. A better word or a restructuring of this sentence is needed; any ideas?
As every word here is measured; and gallons of ink has been spent on practically every word here; I'm not yet making any change, but rather making a suggestion to create a proper sentence which grammatically says the same thing. Itzse ( talk) 23:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
You are both right; Tariqabjotu is right that "It would not be correct at all to say "Palestinians consider East Jerusalem the capital of their state", because they don't have a state"; and Eleland is correct that "it could be "Palestinians see East Jerusalem as..." that's the same semantics and maybe sounds better". That’s why the wording as is, is grammatically wrong; not false; and a better way of saying the same thing is required.
As an "olive branch" is a noble reason to twist a sentence; but this is an Encyclopedia which needs to be grammatically as well as factually correct. Itzse ( talk) 15:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following recently inserted text to here for further discussion:
The United Nations [1] [8] and the International Court of Justice [9] categorize East Jerusalem as occupied territory, and
To begin with, one cannot really say that the "United Nations" categorized anything, at least as a unified body. The United Nations consists of many dozens of states, each with their own views. As for the references used, the first, a Security Council resolution, says nothing about "East Jerusalem" or "occupied territory", and the second is a General Assembly resolution, and therefore essentially meaningless. As for the International Court of Justice, it gave an advisory opinion about another topic: its authority here is nil. Please keep in mind that this is a Featured Article; changes should not be made to the lede (particularly poorly-sourced political ones) without a strong consensus first. Jayjg (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
73. In the 1967 armed conflict, Israeli forces occupied all the territories which had constituted Palestine under British Mandate (including those known as the West Bank, lying to the east of the Green Line).
74. On 22 November 1967, the Security Council unanimously adopted resolution 242 (1967), which emphasized the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war and called for the "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict", and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency".
75. From 1967 onwards, Israel took a number of measures in these territories aimed at changing the status of the City of Jerusalem. The Security Council, after recalling on a number of occasions "the principle that acquisition of territory by military conquest is inadmissible", condemned those measures and, by resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, confirmed in the clearest possible terms that:
"all legislative and administrative actions taken by Israel to change the status of the City of Jerusalem, including expropriation of land and properties, transfer of populations and legislation aimed at the incorporation of the occupied section, are totally invalid and cannot change that status".
Later, following the adoption by Israel on 30 July 1980 of the Basic Law making Jerusalem the "complete and united" capital of Israel, the Security Council, by resolution 478 (1980) of 20 August 1980, stated that the enactment of that Law constituted a violation of international law and that "all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem . . . are null and void". It further decided "not to recognize the 'basic law' and such other actions by Israel that, as a result of this law, seek to alter the character and status of Jerusalem".
76. Subsequently, a peace treaty was signed on 26 October 1994 between Israel and Jordan. That treaty fixed the boundary between the two States "with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a) . . . without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967" (Article 3, paragraphs 1 and 2). Annex I provided the corresponding maps and added that, with regard to the "territory that came under Israeli military government control in 1967", the line indicated "is the administrative boundary" with Jordan.
77. Lastly, a number of agreements have been signed since 1993 between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization imposing various obligations on each party. Those agreements inter alia required Israel to transfer to Palestinian authorities certain powers and responsibilities exercised in the Occupied Palestinian Territory by its military authorities and civil administration. Such transfers have taken place, but, as a result of subsequent events, they remained partial and limited.
78. The Court would observe that, under customary international law as reflected (see paragraph 89 below) in Article 42 of the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention of 18 October 1907 (hereinafter "the Hague Regulations of 1907"), territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army, and the occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
The territories situated between the Green Line (see paragraph 72 above) and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above, have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
Today, Jerusalem remains a bone of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem (captured in the 1967 Six-Day War) has been particularly controversial, as Palestinians view this part of the city as the capital of a potential Palestinian state.[10][11] The status of a "united Jerusalem" as Israel's "eternal capital"[12][13] has not been officially recognized by most of the international community, and nearly all countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.[14]
Palestinian officials have encouraged Arabs over the years to stay in the city to maintain their claim. Jerusalem has been a magnet for Arab migrants, offering more jobs than any city in the West Bank or Gaza Strip.[119] Palestinians are attracted to the access to jobs, healthcare, social security, other benefits, and overall quality of life Israel provides to Jerusalem residents.[120] Arab residents of Jerusalem who choose not to have Israeli citizenship are granted an Israeli identity card that allows them to pass through checkpoints with relative ease and to travel throughout Israel, making it easier to find work. Residents also are entitled to the subsidized healthcare and social security benefits Israel provides its citizens. Palestinians in Jerusalem can send their children to Israeli-run schools, although not every neighborhood has one, and universities. Israeli doctors and highly regarded hospitals such as Hadassah Medical Center are available to residents.[121]
(outdent) The previous wording is unconscionably weasely. The international community does not merely "not officially recognize" Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem; it categorically rejects and condemns it, affirms its legal status as under military occupation, and condemns Israel's drive to create "facts on the ground" as a serious threat to international peace and security. One of the most salient facts about Jerusalem today is that half of it is under occupation. Efforts to excise the word "occupation," and to replace it with watered-down, vague qualifiers are simply not neutral or acceptable.
On the ICJ opinion: Just so we're clear, the term "advisory opinion" refers to the procedural method by which the case was brought. It does not mean "recommendation." I'm not wedded to the idea of mentioning the UNSC and the ICJ opinion by name. I simply chose to do so because I felt sure that "international community" or some similar phrase would be rejected as "original research."
The current section under "Establishment of the State of Israel" is a travesty. It portrays a chorus of condemnation from 1967-present as a single critical resolution, plus a resolution cited by the Palestinians as "considering invalid" Israel's actions. The resolutions are far more numerous and strongly worded ("flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention," "inadmissible," "must be rescinded forthwith," "totally invalid.") And of course they're categorized as "non-binding," a dubious bit of POV commentary that is slapped reflexively on every resolution that Israel doesn't like - although for some reason nobody talks about the "non-binding UN partition plan," etc. They are "non-binding" in the sense that they are not Chapter VII resolutions - so what?
As Nishidani has pointed out, the "Palestinian claims" section is equally terrible. ~40% of it isn't about Palestinian claims at all, but is an extended advertisement for how great Tel Aviv is treating the Arabs. Not a word about the house demolitions, discrimination in zoning and permits, Kafkaesque passport revocations, systematic suppression of Palestinian political activity of any kind, iron ring of barrier settlements to the east, all in the service of a long-term plan to Judaize the city for all time. All of the promotional blather is cited to a news story about Palestinans being squeezed out of West Bank suburbs by the Wall; every Israel-positive sentence in the story has been scraped, while the vast majority of it lies ignored.
Jerusalem is a city with 1/3 Palestinian population, which the international community regards as half belonging to the Palestinians. One would think, therefore, that when discussing Jerusalem today, the Palestinian side gets somewhere between 2/3 time and equal time with the Israeli side. Instead, we have maybe three weaselly sentences about their views. Everything else is Israel, Israel, Israel.
And one more thing: enough of this crowing bullshit about FEATURED ARTICLES. Merely passing Wikipedia's ham-handed system of quality control Personal attack removed does not immunize an article from improvement or correction. As everybody using this argument already knows. Be serious. This article is a travesty. < eleland/ talk edits> 22:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this incorrect unreferened sentence from the lead: "Its Jewish neighborhoods, circled around its civic and cultural hub, extend westward toward Israel's urban core in Gush Dan (Tel Aviv region). Its Arab neighborhoods stretch from the Old City to the East, towards Ramallah in the North, and towards Bethlehem in the South". The sentence is faulty for many reasons. Firstly, I don't understand what "extend" mean. They certainly don't extend from the Old City for example. There is also a good distance between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv or Gush Dan and other cities. If anything, it extends to Modiin and Maalee Adumim. Secondly, there are many "Jewish" neighborhoods in the east part of Jerusalem. Thirdly, there is no such thing as Jewish neighborhood in Jerusalem since many Israeli Arabs live today in western Jerusalem neighborhoods as well... Amoruso ( talk) 22:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
"Although Jews account for the majority of people in Jerusalem, they only account for 31 percent of the children under age fifteen." That is not what is written in the source. What is written is that Jewish people under 15 amount to 31% of the total Jewish population of Jerusalem. Please correct. Benjil ( talk) 16:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"Schools for Palestinians in Jerusalem and other parts of Israel have been criticized for offering a lower quality education than those catering to Israeli Jewish students."
I have a problem with this line. 1) It takes the POV that the Palestinians are a nation. While I personally do not really care as nor the Israelis or the Arabs speak English or really care about its definations of a nation. However, the NPOV policy dictates that statements can not be worded like this. 2) The sentence in inconsitence. It starts off with "for Palestinians..." then continues with "in Israel..." This is like saying "Schools for Chinese in New York and other parts of America have been criticized for offering a lower quality education than those catering to American Christian students."
I mean COME ON! 203.206.234.139 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Whether any of you choose to accept it or not, the Palestinian people are a nation so keep your racist remarks to yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.135.125 ( talk) 05:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
DEFINITIONS OF VANDALISM: I changed the 'etymology section to 'Hebrew etymology', and the history section to 'Jewish history,' and the culture section to 'Israeli culture.' Why? Because each section talked explicitly about Hebrew etymology, Jewish history, and Israeli culture. And this was considered vandalism. I wanted to change the title of culture to Israeli culture since there was nothing about culture on the eastern side of Jerusalem. Until someone adds something about Arab culture in Jerusalem to the site (there is a famous theater and a few cultural/arts centers which are quite prominent as well), the heading is misleading. If someone does add something about the Arab population to that heading, then I think the heading 'culture' would be appropriate. The same goes for the other sections. For instance, the history section leaps from 1200 to 1500 in a sentence, then leaps a sentence later to the mandate period. 700 years in two sentences. Muslim rule between the 7th and 11th centuries gets 3 sentences. There is also a wee little bit about the Sasanids and Romans and the Crusades (and I suppose that that makes my title change slightly inaccurate) but other than that 90% of the article is Jewish history. Alright, what is going on with Wikipedia? Who is in charge of the Jerusalem section, i.e. who decides that something is vandalism? Whether one feels that Israel is that indivisible capital of Israel or the potential capital of Palestine or an international city, the fact remains that Israel's history is not simply Jewish, nor its culture.... Whether you like it or not Arabs live there too, and have, for quite some time, and the way they shaped the face of the place is highly relevant to wikipedia visitors wanting to learn as much as possible about this amazing city. 1 more point - I understand that I or someone else could add in the info that is missing. I am not an expert on Jerusalem. But I will be attempting to do so over the next period and I ask that people not vandalize my entries, as I have experienced a great deal of that in the short time I have been editing wiki entries, particularly related to our wonderful country, Israel. Thanks. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 18:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
JERUSALEM AS "CAPITAL" OF ISRAEL This article is far too close to a pro-Israel and anti-Palestine viewpoint to qualify as "neutral". Just to illustrate: "Today, Jerusalem remains a bone of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem (captured in the 1967 Six-Day War) has been particularly controversial. " Understatement of the decade! As per the numerous UN resolutions, it is more accurate to say occupation for the weasel word and meaningless "annexation" and illegal for the cowardly "controversial". It is only "controversial" for Israel and its handful of "allies" (i.e, the US plus its colonies, Guam etc...). By the article's own admission, only two countries maintain embassies in Jerusalem because the rest of the world view Israel's occupation (not annexation, whatever that means) as illegal. This fact should be made clear from the article's first paragraph and first sentence, not buried way down the article in paragraph 3! Furthermore, if we are going to have a section called "Palestinian Claims" then, ould also amend the section immediately above called "Capital of Israel" to something less biased, like Israeli Claims. To summarize, this article is NOT neutral because it legitimizes Israel's illegal occupation of the city acquiesces in its "claims" that Jerusalem is its "eternal, undivided capital". -- Peachespeaches ( talk) 10:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This article does noes not legitimize Israels occupation, it just tells you what is going on there, which is completly unbiased. Israel does own Jerusalem, its not just thier 'claim'. Their an Independant country, its no longer Palestine, it's Israel!I agree some parts are biased, but the should not be an 'Israeli claims' John26razor ( talk) 15:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
In the demographics section, we see a population figure of 743,000. At the end of that first paragraph, we see 180,000 households with an average of 3.8 people. Well, 3.8 times 180,000 equals 684,000, more than 60,000 less than the population figure. Any thoughts on how to reconcile the discrepancy? I assume that "average" here refers to the mean; if however it is the median, then perhaps the answer is that there is quite a bit of skew in the distribution. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 14:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I had placed this sentence under "history" which was then deleted:
"On May 28, the Arab Legion gained control over the Old City; all of its Jewish inhabitants were either expelled or taken prisoner."
No reason for the deletion was given; I don't see how this violates NPOV if that was the concern.
I reverted that edit and re-placed this sentence.
As I am a relatively new editor, I would appreciate feedback.
Drmikeh49 ( talk) 22:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
what about the greek latin Hiërosolyma, where does it fit in the etymology section? Another thing is, does the Palestine state have a emblem or symbol for the city of Jerusalem? It looks rather Israelian in the article to me. Mallerd ( talk) 22:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Why are the Greek and Latin names omitted? Mallerd ( talk) 14:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi and thank you, well this paragraph is from an earlier version of this article. I understand what you are saying, I guess the reason the Greek and Latin were in the article earlier was because they were part of the Roman and "Byzantine" Empire which had respectively Latin and Greek as official languages. Anyway, for cities who are in countries that don't have a language as official language, the name of another language is still used. For example, many cities in Romania, Czechia and Poland have German names as well. Perhaps this is due a large minority who speak German in those countries, but still. There are many Jews from around the world, perhaps there is one that is really significant. Just a thought, good night now Mallerd ( talk) 21:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that most dates in this article mention BCE and CE instead of BC and AD. I'm not a Wikipedia pro, but it seems to me that this is inconsistent with most other articles in Wikipedia, as well as general usage. Why does the article use this notation? -- Spacedoggie ( talk) 02:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
FYI, I opened a thread about Jerusalem's state as Israel's capital here. Imad marie ( talk) 12:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
TELAVIV is the capital of Israel. Its where the embassies are. Jerusalem has no status as the capital period. So please delete the line that says it is. That is a lie. (Brian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.54 ( talk) 22:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The situation is clear: Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law, but it is not recognized internationally as part of Israel (it is, instead, a "corpus separatum", neither Israeli nor Palestinian, under international law). Stating "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" in Wikipedia's voice is clearly biased towards the Israeli position, and biased against international law. That's not acceptable. It is notable that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law, and we should by all means state that, but the omission of the qualification "under Israeli law" is unacceptable within WP:NPOV. -- dab (𒁳) 08:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Jerusalem as the capital of israel under israeli law is meaningless as its an INTERNATIONAL law issue. (Brian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.53 ( talk) 05:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
This discussion does not belong on Talk:Jerusalem, but on the WP:ANI noticeboard. < eleland/ talk edits> 23:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
You couldn't make this stuff up.
It seems that a pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopaedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged.
See the emails of the group here: http://electronicintifada.net/downloads/pdf/080421-camera-wikipedia.pdf
Khalilgibran ( talk) 15:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me for deleting the 'collapse' feature. It is not THAT extended a discussion and is a VERY relevant discussion and should be directly viewed/accessed when people check the talk page. It seemed, in my opinion, as if someone preferred the discussion was out of sight. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 05:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Or rather, I thought I deleted the 'collapsing' feature. But I see no changes. 1equalvoice1 ( talk) 05:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
This new paragraph in the "Palestinian claims" section raises some questions. First and foremost: which Palestinians are referred to in the second sentence? I doubt it is currently possible for any residents of the West Bank who are not already residents of Jerusalem to move to Jerusalem. So who are these 'migrants"? Where do they come from? We might add that under current law it is impossible for an Israeli who marries someone from the West Bank to bring that spouse to Israel as a resident/citizen. In general, we might try to keep in mind that newspapers don't always get it right: just because some idiot reporter writes something, it doesn't mean it can be treated as fact. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 18:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Would someone explain to me please why this paragraph is relevant to the section? Why is Palestinians seeking jobs in Jerusalem relevant to the Palestinian claim of Jerusalem? Imad marie ( talk) 06:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Those who know: please add to East Jerusalem info to the culture section. I would add it myself but I only have the very basics. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 07:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
This article lacks history about the early Muslim Arab rule of the city, the Crusader rule of the city and the Mamluk rule. I added info on Umar's pact but without a reference. Also, why are the years put into the headings. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 19:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll get the ref and maybe in the coming days I'll some info on those periods. I don't know much about the culture of East Jerusalem, but yes it should be here. I'm going to remove the years from the headings, it just clutters everything. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 05:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
This article doesn't seem to have a "Communication" section. I think it would be a worthwhile addition. Just a suggestion. Bless sins ( talk) 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Given that the leading sentence is designed to summarize the entire article, don't you think that 'disputed capital' is a better lead than simply 'capital of Israel,' given the highly contentious nature of this and that the lead tends to read like a nationalist disgrace.
Crum375 noted that 'A sovereign country determines its own capital -- it can't be decided or imposed externally.' but to simply lead with what a sovereign nation determines leads to the nationalistic lead that I and others have a problem with. A sovereign nation intrinsically relies on its recognition of sovereignty, both wholly and over certain territories for it to be a sovereign nation. Given that no other sovereign nation recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and many academic articles mention that in the UN's eyes Jerusalem is not even a part of [sovereign] Israel.
So Crum375, I wonder if the United States, as a sovereign nation decided that Israel was a part of the United States, if that’s how we would lead with the Israel article. Something along the lines of Israel is a suzerain of the United States of America. Clearly, sovereignty is given by and relies on external powers, none of which in this case have recognised the legitimacy of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Further, sovereignty does not intrinsically bestow its holder with the ability to decide the view of the international community on places and incidents within or outside of their territory. Why does Wikipedia lead with such a misleading opening sentence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colourinthemeaning ( talk • contribs) 13:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is that Jerusalem is not the internationally recognized capital of Israel. Its status is yet to be determinded in negotiations with a future Palestinian-Arab government of an independent and unoccupied Palestine. The personal opinions of Jews or Israelis who want to depict the situation in a way sympathetic to them, for obvious reasons, cannot dictate the content of an internationally accessible article on wikipedia. This is no pro-Israeli propaganda platform and if they want to post their minority opinion they should mark it as that. Cush ( talk) 14:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
p.s. The CIA factbook is one source. The BBC and Encarta is another. When good sources are in conflict, one is biased to favour one over the other. One mediates for a compromise. To favour one source over another reliable source is to show one's bias, and politics. Nishidani ( talk) 18:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Nishidani, as an administrator my opinion carries no extra weight, but I do know that we operate by consensus. In this case, there was a prolonged discussion about this specific issue, and the current language reflects consensus. If you'd like to change that consensus, the discussion would need to be broad and include many people. If they all (or a reasonable majority) agree to the change, then that can be done. In my own humble opinion, the CIA factbook is a very neutral source, unlike the BBC, for example that is not. Crum375 ( talk) 18:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Nishidani, the point was made by others above. Every country in the world declares its own capital. Some (or many) countries have disputes over their territory and other issues. But each country has a selected capital, and it is never dictated externally, they just decide on their own. That there are disputes about this is clear, and we note those disputes in an extensive footnote and elsewhere. The point again is: if Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel, then what city is? Crum375 ( talk) 00:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
According to the US, Europe and most countries in the world Tel Aviv is the recognized capital. Could you provide a list of which countries have their embassy to Israel in Jerusalem? Strongbrow ( talk) 01:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Most countries in the world, including the US, do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and the Palestinians also have claims on the city as their capital. At the very least wikipedia should acknowledge both claims and recognize that the global community doesn't recognize either at the moment. The current opening paragraph takes sides by stating as a fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Strongbrow ( talk) 01:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I just realized I don't know the answer to a very interesting question: before 1967, where did other countries locate their embassies in Israel? One frequent claim made in relation to this issue is that many countries decline to put their embassies in Jerusalem because of the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem after 1967 - hence the difficulty of recognizing "Jerusalem" (not just what was once the Israeli part) as the capital. This might imply that, prior to 1967, the embassies were in Jerusalem and then were relocated effectively in protest of the occupation. Alternatively, the problem might have deeper roots, going back to designation of Jerusalem as an "international city" (whatever that means) - such that embassies were never located in Jerusalem, in protest of the results of the 1948 war. Can anyone tell me which scenario holds? I'm not sure how it might bear on this discussion, but anyway a better understanding of history wouldn't hurt. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 11:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Since people only seem to be quoting from the CIA factbook or BBC, I thought it would help the discussion to add a couple more reliable sources and see what they say as to the capital of Israel. The Canadian government Canadian Foreign Affairs Country Insights page lists the capital as Jerusalem. Here is Britians country profile Leppi ( talk) 17:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The CIA's position on the issue, or the US position, is of no relevance, as there can be expected no objectivity from that corner. Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel by the United Nations, i.e. the international community. That is all that matters and that defines the legal status of the city. The leading sentence of the article MUST be altered.
Cush (
talk)
07:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Cush, to quote you from above:"That's the common expression on internet fora for followers of Judaism and citizens of Israel who push for certain issues to be seen their way." I'm assuming you mean by 'their way' a Palestinian-disappearing perspective. I should not have to explain to you that "Jew Crew" implies that all Jews share the same perspective or are in cahouts with each other working always towards the same aims coming from the same perspective. How ridiculous can such an implication get? Do you have any idea how different Jews can be from one another? (I, for example, am a follower of Judaism and a citizen of Israel, yet most of my efforts involve re-inserting legitimate Palestinian history and perspective that has been omitted or deleted, to balance out an exclusive Jewish perspective {which leaves us with inaccurate wiki entries}). "Jew Crew" not only suggests that all Jews are the same but points quickly to 'world Jewish conspiracy' theories (which I should not have to mention led to the displacement of the Jewish population of Europe and directly impacted Palestinian national aspirations in turn).
'The city has a history that goes back as far as the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world.[5] '
History =prehistory. Major construction only began in the Middle Bonze Age (11-111), which on a global scale puts it into a middle range.
Actually, it is not, as popular literature says, anywhere near one of the oldest cities of the world, and the ref. is not reliable. Aharon Kellerman in his Society and Settlement: Jewish Land of Israel in the Twentieth Century 1993 p.122 is closer to the truth in arguing that Jerusalem is probably the oldest among current capital cities around the world (Not quite true. It's roughly on a par with Athens. Damascus beats it by two thousand years. Jerusalem is 10th on the List of oldest continuously inhabited cities, which has huge lacunae), cf.Damascus. Archeologically, Jericho sets the pattern for this list with an establishment around 9000 BC. Jerusalem comes several thousand years after that, and there are a very large number of continuously inhabited urban areas all over the world going back thousands of years earlier than Jerusalem's first substantial settlement. I suggest someone looks into proper academic sources to get this right. Nishidani ( talk) 15:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Assuming all you say is right, it may need to be updated in the History section. Also, to remove it from the "one of the oldest" list, you'd have to show it's not within a reasonable percentile (a few percent tops) in age, or that there are reliable sources calling that common classification false. Again, the issue is not the specific age or how far down the list it is, but the percentile grouping, i.e. whether or not it is among the oldest X percent of cities, where X is small. Crum375 ( talk) 17:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't disagree with most of your points about professionalism and I agree that we need to strive for the best possible quality. But I think in this case, adding the generic phrase "one of the oldest cities" is harmless. If you had a specific reliable source refuting it, by showing it is a hoax, and that actually it was founded in the middle ages, we would need to deal with it. However, given the fact that even by most conservative sources it is thousands of years old, and there being no known refutation to the widely repeated claim, I don't see a problem in keeping it. If you do care about this issue, I suggest you collect more sources and improve the history section. Crum375 ( talk) 19:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Please discuss below this line. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I think a change of the lead is absolutely essential to ensure this article takes both a NPOV and, as wikipedia policy states, summarises the rest of the article. Give me some time to read over the previous discussions though, and I will present my arguments back in this section. Cheers Colourinthemeaning ( talk) 11:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree. We should create a part of the article discussing the Islamic and Christian eras. This is a vital part of the History of Jerusalem. I cannot do this though until the article becomes unblocked. John26razor —Preceding unsigned comment added by John26razor ( talk • contribs) 17:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the advice, I'm new here. I've just joined Wikipedia. I know a lot about Jerusalem, but I have no idea how to put it on anywhere. This is a huge discussion page, I am surprised that discussionS here could last for more than a year!!! There is controversy on how to write this article and the perspective it has to be in. I'll try to do the best I can. I can see Cush thinks Jews have one perspective of the palestinians. He is very much wrong by using the quote 'Jew Crew' John26razor-- John26razor ( talk) 17:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to try unprotection now. If the edit war reoccurs it will be reprotected. Please discuss before making any controversial claims; also remember WP:3RR. I will enforce blocks if it's broken. So, be careful, and hope all goes well. :) PeterSymonds (talk) 13:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we add a brief section summarizing development plans in Jerusalem, as has been done with Haifa (which actually needs more info added). For example, the Museum of Tolerance in Kikar Ha Chatulim, the Silwan settlement, and the Imperial Hotel/other Old City properties by Jaffa Gate, among others. I will add later when the page is unblocked. Please add to the list I just threw out there if you know about this kind of thing. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 22:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that this matter, of using "annexation" and "asserting sovereignty" in the article is much more serious than the "Jerusalem is the capital" debate. The latter is a question of neutrality, of undue weight, of phrasing and semantics. But as for the first, the article is simply baldly stating as fact something which is untrue and uncitable, and jarring.
That statement is certainly not "uncitable". See [4] and [5] (sorry, can't find the original for the second source). There are, of course, many books that use this terming, which you can easily find through Google Books, among other places. -- tariqabjotu 17:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Nishidani, I have enormous respect for Lustick (his article "Israel as a non-Arab State" is brilliant, and his book on the "war on terror" is even better). But on this issue I'm not sure how far brilliance would take us. Sociologists sometimes quote an aphorism by W.I. Thomas: if something is perceived as real, then it is real in its consequences. Even if Lustick is right - that the legality of annexation is problematic - the pervasive belief that annexation has happened, even if legally erroneous, might be what counts for an encyclopaedic understanding of East Jerusalem at this stage. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 19:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
.we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities
My two cents: as much as I understand both points of view on the question of 'capital' versus 'disputed capital,' it also seems to me that people are getting awfully distracted. Fight this to the bitter end, that's your business. But in the meantime, the article suffers from a dearth of info on East Jerusalem. I think the outside wiki reader would get a lot more from an article which actually addresses the day-to-day of Arab life in Jerusalem as much it currently addresses the day-to-day of Jewish life. And this is largely absent. So I would ask those who have the info to spend as much time filling in skeletal parts as they do debating one sentence, however vital it may be. LamaLoLeshLa ( talk) 23:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the protection will be lifted in a minute; it's holding up numerous other changes. What general sanction do you suggest for the sentence? My thought would be an only warning, followed by a short block of 3 hours, increasing each time the sentence is replaced. This would last for, say, a week, or however long until the discussion is definitely concluded. Thoughts? PeterSymonds (talk) 06:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Good, now could someone please add an FA-worthy source for the paragraph about Umar and the Muslim conquest I added a few days ago? It's in the main Islamic rule section. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 07:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Lead.
I think it is now generally conceded that annexation is inappropriate and should be replaced?
Etymology
I wrote what follows below after reading the section and consulting notes I had made. I now find, purely by accident, that
Zero0000 has done a fine piece of work summing up the real evidence, as opposed to the spurious or folklorish etymologies the text is strewn with now (all POV and
WP:Undue Weight as it stands) and has more or less written the basics for the section I say is missing, and yet no one seems to have harvested it.
Jerusalem's etymology. This place is mysterious. Info is handed out on a platter and the answer is silence.
Nishidani (
talk)
16:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The whole section should be written in chronological order, with reliable sources on the philology of the word. I.e.It is a semitic word predating the rise of the Hebrew dialect by 1000 years. The etymologies for it in Hebrew are folk etymologies that arose after the word, a foreign word was assimilated into the language. The major etymology proposed for this pre-Israelite toponym, is ‘foundation’ (yārā) of the god Shalem', though other suggestions exist.
(1) Rušalimum or Urušalimum (Egyptian hieroglyphic, 19th.-18th century BCE)
(2) Urušalim 14th-13th century Akkadian cuneiform
(3) Uršalimmu/Urusilimmu (Assyrian)
(4) Yerushalayim/Yrušlym (Hebrew)
(Omitting Yevus (Judges. 19:10) the city as dwelt in by Jebusites (perhaps a Hittite tribe, unless they are a clan linked to the Amorites cf.Yabusi'um) before David conquered it).
Surely someone properly qualified in Semitic languages could chip in here? This is supposed to have FA status, with the quality that demands.
History
Para 1. (Roshlamem or Rosh-ramen) are incorrectly transcribed. As in the etymological section to be written, these should be Rushalimum or Urushalimum.
Para 1. There is no mention whatsoever of the first recorded 'king' or ruler of the city, the first person history records as associated with the city. This is a serious oversight. See
Abdi-Heba
Para 1. Some reference is required to the frequent suggestion that the strong shift in climate from 16th. made that area arid, and this may account for the demographic collapse of the Middle Bronze city, which then remained virtually deserted for some centuries 15-13th cent.BC.
The local potentate the Jebusite(Hittite?)
Araunah, from whom David bought the threshing-floor which is supposed to be the foundation-site of the Temple Solomon built should perhaps also be mentioned.
(1) The text reads: 'From the days of Constantine until the Seventh Century, Jews were banned from Jerusalem.[42]'
The source is Michael Zank's snippet article which actually says:
' Jews were banned from entering the city until the advent of Islam, when they were readmitted.
Why is it necessary to restore the original wording? Because if Jews were banned from Jerusalem, and only readmitted with the islamic conquest (untrue, they were readmitted in significant numbers by the pre-islamic Persian conquest), the reader is left wondering how decades before the Islamic conquest, Jews within the city assisted the Persians in 614 to gain entry to and conquer Jerusalem. Zank’s text is a slovenly, unreferenced thumbnail sketch, and overlooks the fact that both Julian the Apostate around 360s, and Eudokia later, briefly changed the policy and invited Jews back into the city. A community existed there, the one the next paragraph explains was involved in the Persian takeover.
Rewrite therefore ‘From the days of Constantine, apart from two brief periods, Jews were banned from entering the city.’
(2) Para. 'Roman Persian Wars. This is a mess.
(a)'push into Byzantine' should read 'push into the Byzantine Empire'. Byzantine is an adjective, is solecistic and linking it to the proper phrasing, while retaining the error, is weird.
(b) The text reads:
'and advancing through Syria, Sassanid Generals Shahrbaraz and Shahin decided.
contains a dangling clause, contextually (see preceding line) which should be placed after 'Shahrbaraz and Shahin decided'.
Emend therefore to
‘the Sassanid Generals Shahrbaraz and Shahin, on advancing through Syria, decided’.
(c)The text reads:
'Sassanids to begin constructing a naval fleet and its (Jerusalem?naval fleet?) capture would undoubtedly weaken the Byzantine-Empire's overseas strength
(c.i)Sassanids to construct a fleet (fleets are implicitly always naval in contexts dealing with clashing empires, to say 'naval fleet' is pleonastic here)
(c.ii)'its capture would undoubtedly weaken the Byzantine-Empire's overseas strength'
This is completely meaningless (i) 'undoubtedly' is an editorial comment, for 'forseeably' (ii)the capture of jerusalem would not in itself weaken Byzantium’s oversea(')s (= 'maritime' dominance in the eastern Mediterranean)strength (iii) the comment is odd enough to require a
WP:RS.
I expect what the editors intended to say was
'As a key city overlooking routes that connected the Mediterranean Sea to the hinterland, Jerusalem would provide a strategic launching point for gaining dominance over the littoral, in order to allow the Sassanids to construct a fleet that might forseeably challenge Byzantium’s dominance of the eastern Mediterranean.
Nishidani ( talk) 12:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
-capital of Israel-
The text has:
'By Israeli law, Jerusalem is the de-jure capital of Israel, and de-facto contains the parliament, government offices, Supreme Court, President's quarters, and Prime Ministers's quarters.'
the words de-facto (properly = de facto) are supererogatory, and meaningless and can be removed. De-jure = de jure, and is again pleonastic, since 'By Israel law' is sufficient to establish the point made.
- 'recent excavations of a large stone structure' requires a citation, as noted. The required citation is:
John J.Collins, A Short Introduction to the Hebrew Bible, Abridged and revised ed. Augsburg Fortress Press, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2007 pp.128f.
Nishidani ( talk) 17:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Section.Palestinian Claims I'm sure this sounds wonderful in a tourist brochure, for the lovey-dovey starry-eyed image, but it's odd at least to a reader of Haaretz, which even today remarks:-
'Earlier this month, when Israel marked 41 years since the reunification of Jerusalem, residents of the eastern part of the city saw no cause for celebration. Like 'most of the Arab homes in East Jerusalem, residents of the neighborhood of A-Tur are forced to live without infrastructure, paved roads and regular garbage collection. Roughly one quarter of a million Arabs, all of whom hold Israeli identification cards, live in East Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after the 1967 Six-Day War. According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, 130 thousand of them have no running water.' Haaretz 23/6/2008
No mention of withdrawal by bureraucratic fiat of residential rights if you choose to study overseas etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. But then sacred cities must present their best face. Nishidani ( talk) 14:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Section 1967. Moroccan Quarter. I note Nomoskedaskcity has added a note from rashid K's article. Rather than have a generic and unsupported text about reluctant residents killed (stuff like that should be removed, since it is a strong claim and needs immediate textual support, and whoever asserts these things in a text like this should do so with reliable evidence at hand), it perhaps would be better to note that 'approximately 1,000 residents (were) evicted' to enlarge access to wall, as the same Khalidi noted in his classic Palestinian Identity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness, Columbia UP 1997 ed. p.17 Nishidani ( talk) 12:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
-Nonsense sentences-
The last line in the lead section reads:
" Palestinians consider East Jerusalem the capital of their future state"
The above sentence rings wrong to anybody good at grammar. The word "consider" in particular is a problem, because "consider" is present tense; and also the definition of "consider" doesn't go well with the grammar of the rest of the sentence. A better word or a restructuring of this sentence is needed; any ideas?
As every word here is measured; and gallons of ink has been spent on practically every word here; I'm not yet making any change, but rather making a suggestion to create a proper sentence which grammatically says the same thing. Itzse ( talk) 23:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
You are both right; Tariqabjotu is right that "It would not be correct at all to say "Palestinians consider East Jerusalem the capital of their state", because they don't have a state"; and Eleland is correct that "it could be "Palestinians see East Jerusalem as..." that's the same semantics and maybe sounds better". That’s why the wording as is, is grammatically wrong; not false; and a better way of saying the same thing is required.
As an "olive branch" is a noble reason to twist a sentence; but this is an Encyclopedia which needs to be grammatically as well as factually correct. Itzse ( talk) 15:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following recently inserted text to here for further discussion:
The United Nations [1] [8] and the International Court of Justice [9] categorize East Jerusalem as occupied territory, and
To begin with, one cannot really say that the "United Nations" categorized anything, at least as a unified body. The United Nations consists of many dozens of states, each with their own views. As for the references used, the first, a Security Council resolution, says nothing about "East Jerusalem" or "occupied territory", and the second is a General Assembly resolution, and therefore essentially meaningless. As for the International Court of Justice, it gave an advisory opinion about another topic: its authority here is nil. Please keep in mind that this is a Featured Article; changes should not be made to the lede (particularly poorly-sourced political ones) without a strong consensus first. Jayjg (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
73. In the 1967 armed conflict, Israeli forces occupied all the territories which had constituted Palestine under British Mandate (including those known as the West Bank, lying to the east of the Green Line).
74. On 22 November 1967, the Security Council unanimously adopted resolution 242 (1967), which emphasized the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war and called for the "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict", and "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency".
75. From 1967 onwards, Israel took a number of measures in these territories aimed at changing the status of the City of Jerusalem. The Security Council, after recalling on a number of occasions "the principle that acquisition of territory by military conquest is inadmissible", condemned those measures and, by resolution 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971, confirmed in the clearest possible terms that:
"all legislative and administrative actions taken by Israel to change the status of the City of Jerusalem, including expropriation of land and properties, transfer of populations and legislation aimed at the incorporation of the occupied section, are totally invalid and cannot change that status".
Later, following the adoption by Israel on 30 July 1980 of the Basic Law making Jerusalem the "complete and united" capital of Israel, the Security Council, by resolution 478 (1980) of 20 August 1980, stated that the enactment of that Law constituted a violation of international law and that "all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem . . . are null and void". It further decided "not to recognize the 'basic law' and such other actions by Israel that, as a result of this law, seek to alter the character and status of Jerusalem".
76. Subsequently, a peace treaty was signed on 26 October 1994 between Israel and Jordan. That treaty fixed the boundary between the two States "with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a) . . . without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967" (Article 3, paragraphs 1 and 2). Annex I provided the corresponding maps and added that, with regard to the "territory that came under Israeli military government control in 1967", the line indicated "is the administrative boundary" with Jordan.
77. Lastly, a number of agreements have been signed since 1993 between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization imposing various obligations on each party. Those agreements inter alia required Israel to transfer to Palestinian authorities certain powers and responsibilities exercised in the Occupied Palestinian Territory by its military authorities and civil administration. Such transfers have taken place, but, as a result of subsequent events, they remained partial and limited.
78. The Court would observe that, under customary international law as reflected (see paragraph 89 below) in Article 42 of the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention of 18 October 1907 (hereinafter "the Hague Regulations of 1907"), territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army, and the occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
The territories situated between the Green Line (see paragraph 72 above) and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above, have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
Today, Jerusalem remains a bone of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem (captured in the 1967 Six-Day War) has been particularly controversial, as Palestinians view this part of the city as the capital of a potential Palestinian state.[10][11] The status of a "united Jerusalem" as Israel's "eternal capital"[12][13] has not been officially recognized by most of the international community, and nearly all countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.[14]
Palestinian officials have encouraged Arabs over the years to stay in the city to maintain their claim. Jerusalem has been a magnet for Arab migrants, offering more jobs than any city in the West Bank or Gaza Strip.[119] Palestinians are attracted to the access to jobs, healthcare, social security, other benefits, and overall quality of life Israel provides to Jerusalem residents.[120] Arab residents of Jerusalem who choose not to have Israeli citizenship are granted an Israeli identity card that allows them to pass through checkpoints with relative ease and to travel throughout Israel, making it easier to find work. Residents also are entitled to the subsidized healthcare and social security benefits Israel provides its citizens. Palestinians in Jerusalem can send their children to Israeli-run schools, although not every neighborhood has one, and universities. Israeli doctors and highly regarded hospitals such as Hadassah Medical Center are available to residents.[121]
(outdent) The previous wording is unconscionably weasely. The international community does not merely "not officially recognize" Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem; it categorically rejects and condemns it, affirms its legal status as under military occupation, and condemns Israel's drive to create "facts on the ground" as a serious threat to international peace and security. One of the most salient facts about Jerusalem today is that half of it is under occupation. Efforts to excise the word "occupation," and to replace it with watered-down, vague qualifiers are simply not neutral or acceptable.
On the ICJ opinion: Just so we're clear, the term "advisory opinion" refers to the procedural method by which the case was brought. It does not mean "recommendation." I'm not wedded to the idea of mentioning the UNSC and the ICJ opinion by name. I simply chose to do so because I felt sure that "international community" or some similar phrase would be rejected as "original research."
The current section under "Establishment of the State of Israel" is a travesty. It portrays a chorus of condemnation from 1967-present as a single critical resolution, plus a resolution cited by the Palestinians as "considering invalid" Israel's actions. The resolutions are far more numerous and strongly worded ("flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention," "inadmissible," "must be rescinded forthwith," "totally invalid.") And of course they're categorized as "non-binding," a dubious bit of POV commentary that is slapped reflexively on every resolution that Israel doesn't like - although for some reason nobody talks about the "non-binding UN partition plan," etc. They are "non-binding" in the sense that they are not Chapter VII resolutions - so what?
As Nishidani has pointed out, the "Palestinian claims" section is equally terrible. ~40% of it isn't about Palestinian claims at all, but is an extended advertisement for how great Tel Aviv is treating the Arabs. Not a word about the house demolitions, discrimination in zoning and permits, Kafkaesque passport revocations, systematic suppression of Palestinian political activity of any kind, iron ring of barrier settlements to the east, all in the service of a long-term plan to Judaize the city for all time. All of the promotional blather is cited to a news story about Palestinans being squeezed out of West Bank suburbs by the Wall; every Israel-positive sentence in the story has been scraped, while the vast majority of it lies ignored.
Jerusalem is a city with 1/3 Palestinian population, which the international community regards as half belonging to the Palestinians. One would think, therefore, that when discussing Jerusalem today, the Palestinian side gets somewhere between 2/3 time and equal time with the Israeli side. Instead, we have maybe three weaselly sentences about their views. Everything else is Israel, Israel, Israel.
And one more thing: enough of this crowing bullshit about FEATURED ARTICLES. Merely passing Wikipedia's ham-handed system of quality control Personal attack removed does not immunize an article from improvement or correction. As everybody using this argument already knows. Be serious. This article is a travesty. < eleland/ talk edits> 22:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this incorrect unreferened sentence from the lead: "Its Jewish neighborhoods, circled around its civic and cultural hub, extend westward toward Israel's urban core in Gush Dan (Tel Aviv region). Its Arab neighborhoods stretch from the Old City to the East, towards Ramallah in the North, and towards Bethlehem in the South". The sentence is faulty for many reasons. Firstly, I don't understand what "extend" mean. They certainly don't extend from the Old City for example. There is also a good distance between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv or Gush Dan and other cities. If anything, it extends to Modiin and Maalee Adumim. Secondly, there are many "Jewish" neighborhoods in the east part of Jerusalem. Thirdly, there is no such thing as Jewish neighborhood in Jerusalem since many Israeli Arabs live today in western Jerusalem neighborhoods as well... Amoruso ( talk) 22:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)