The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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I don't think it should be split as that is his main source of notoriety. R. Kelly is more notable for his music than for his long series of crimes, while Epstein's notability as a financier is there it is inextricably tied up in it. The scandal is him and he is the scandal, etc.
PARAKANYAA (
talk) 03:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Both of these are listed at
WP:RSP, which is why they get tagged automatically as "use of deprecated (unreliable) source" in the edit history.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 08:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem with
this edit is that is has simply removed the two cites that were tagged as unreliable, while keeping the text the same. The statement "Epstein was known for
preferring prepubescents and barely pubescents girls or looking as such at the very most, to the point of putting girls on extreme particular diets and conditions to keep them mantaining a prepuberal look and body" appears to be backed by
this story in the New York Post which says "Jeffrey Epstein and his accused madam Ghislaine Maxwell put his young victims on “ridiculous,” extreme diets to maintain their “prepubescent” look, accuser Virginia Roberts Giuffre claimed." The other cites are not specifically backing this claim. Apart from being in the New York Post, the cite provides more context by saying that this is a claim made by Virginia Giuffre and does not state it as a fact. The source in The Sun also makes clear that this is a claim made by Virginia Giuffre.
[1]. Despite the large number of sources added here, the specific claim about the diet comes from the New York Post and The Sun, and does not state it as a fact, only a claim by Virginia Giuffre.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 10:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I still don't get what's your point to justify the revert of all that content. Your point is just because two sources not considered valid on this Wikipedia says the same thing that others considered reliable and valid do, this is enough to invalidate all the rest? And the undebunked testimony of one of the victims is not reliable?
You have put it straight back again even though it was pointed out that this was a claim made by Virginia Giuffre, not a proven fact. Also, the other sources are largely irrelevant
WP:CITEKILL because they do not relate to the diet. This is also running into problems with
due weight by putting this in the lead section without pointing out that this is simply a claim by Giuffre. I can't see why there is an obsession with adding this in the same form repeatedly after the problems were pointed out to you. This is a claim that Giuffre made in a podcast,
[2] it is not really a reliable source.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 11:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, that's why in the previous version I wrote "according to
Virginia Roberts Giuffre, an alleged victim of Epstein", wasn't ok even written that way?
Ratmanny (
talk) 15:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Please suggest a place to put it that isn't in the lead section. I removed it mainly because I agreed with Ianmacm's comment: it doesn't belong in the lead.
Nomoskedasticity (
talk) 15:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem is I don't know in what section to put it besides the lead. I mean, I could put the part of how he used to prefer his victims in the lead and the testimony of Virginia Giuffre in the Legal proceeding section but I don't know where specifically.
Ratmanny (
talk) 15:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Well what? If you can't find a place for it in the body, that's not an argument in favor of dumping it in the first paragraph...
Nomoskedasticity (
talk) 09:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)reply
If you add it to the first paragraph again, you will likely be blocked. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The
WP:LEAD should not contain orphaned statements. These are statements that appear only in the lead and do not appear elsewhere in the article. There has been a problem here with adding material to the lead section simply to ensure that it appears prominently in the article, but that is not what the lead section is there for. The lead is simply a summary of what appears later on in the article.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 17:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in
limited circumstances)
Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page
Violations of any of these restrictions should be reported immediately to the
arbitration enforcement noticeboard.
Editors who are
aware of this topic being designated a contentious topic and who violate these restrictions may be
sanctioned by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all
edit-warring restrictions.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as obvious vandalism.
In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to
the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.
Whenever you are relying on one of these exemptions, you should refer to it in your
edit summary and, if applicable, link to the discussion where consensus was clearly established.
If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic.
The subject of this article is
controversial and content may be in
dispute. When updating the article,
be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a
neutral point of view. Include
citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Please stay
calm and
civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and
do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. Ifconsensus is not reached,
other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
This article is written in
American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other
varieties of English. According to the
relevant style guide, this should not be changed without
broad consensus.
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
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I don't think it should be split as that is his main source of notoriety. R. Kelly is more notable for his music than for his long series of crimes, while Epstein's notability as a financier is there it is inextricably tied up in it. The scandal is him and he is the scandal, etc.
PARAKANYAA (
talk) 03:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)reply
Both of these are listed at
WP:RSP, which is why they get tagged automatically as "use of deprecated (unreliable) source" in the edit history.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 08:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem with
this edit is that is has simply removed the two cites that were tagged as unreliable, while keeping the text the same. The statement "Epstein was known for
preferring prepubescents and barely pubescents girls or looking as such at the very most, to the point of putting girls on extreme particular diets and conditions to keep them mantaining a prepuberal look and body" appears to be backed by
this story in the New York Post which says "Jeffrey Epstein and his accused madam Ghislaine Maxwell put his young victims on “ridiculous,” extreme diets to maintain their “prepubescent” look, accuser Virginia Roberts Giuffre claimed." The other cites are not specifically backing this claim. Apart from being in the New York Post, the cite provides more context by saying that this is a claim made by Virginia Giuffre and does not state it as a fact. The source in The Sun also makes clear that this is a claim made by Virginia Giuffre.
[1]. Despite the large number of sources added here, the specific claim about the diet comes from the New York Post and The Sun, and does not state it as a fact, only a claim by Virginia Giuffre.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 10:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I still don't get what's your point to justify the revert of all that content. Your point is just because two sources not considered valid on this Wikipedia says the same thing that others considered reliable and valid do, this is enough to invalidate all the rest? And the undebunked testimony of one of the victims is not reliable?
You have put it straight back again even though it was pointed out that this was a claim made by Virginia Giuffre, not a proven fact. Also, the other sources are largely irrelevant
WP:CITEKILL because they do not relate to the diet. This is also running into problems with
due weight by putting this in the lead section without pointing out that this is simply a claim by Giuffre. I can't see why there is an obsession with adding this in the same form repeatedly after the problems were pointed out to you. This is a claim that Giuffre made in a podcast,
[2] it is not really a reliable source.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 11:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yeah, that's why in the previous version I wrote "according to
Virginia Roberts Giuffre, an alleged victim of Epstein", wasn't ok even written that way?
Ratmanny (
talk) 15:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Please suggest a place to put it that isn't in the lead section. I removed it mainly because I agreed with Ianmacm's comment: it doesn't belong in the lead.
Nomoskedasticity (
talk) 15:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The problem is I don't know in what section to put it besides the lead. I mean, I could put the part of how he used to prefer his victims in the lead and the testimony of Virginia Giuffre in the Legal proceeding section but I don't know where specifically.
Ratmanny (
talk) 15:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Well what? If you can't find a place for it in the body, that's not an argument in favor of dumping it in the first paragraph...
Nomoskedasticity (
talk) 09:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)reply
If you add it to the first paragraph again, you will likely be blocked. –
Muboshgu (
talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply
The
WP:LEAD should not contain orphaned statements. These are statements that appear only in the lead and do not appear elsewhere in the article. There has been a problem here with adding material to the lead section simply to ensure that it appears prominently in the article, but that is not what the lead section is there for. The lead is simply a summary of what appears later on in the article.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 17:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)reply