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I came to this page because I was watching a movie featuring a japanese idol group, and i didn't really understand what that was. after reading this page I got the impression they are manufactured pop acts a la Britney Spears, but then I clicked on Beppin mag and that is some sort of mens mag/Playboy/naked centerfold thing? I think this article may need some clarification as to how much of this scene is for teens and how much of it is a sex industry thing aimed at adults, as this seems to me to be an important distinction between the japanese idol scene and the manufactured pop scene in the west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.74.73 ( talk) 08:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
What happens to the ones that go out of favor with the public?
I think this is an interesting article, but it also contains a huge flaw in that it gives the mistaken impression that idols are exclusively female. This is quite clearly false - the role of male idols such as SMAP, V6 and Shonentai is almost (if not equally) as important as those of their female counterparts in Japanese pop culture. Surely they need to be mentioned?
"Good examples of this are Ayumi Hamasaki, Noriko Sakai, Ryoko Hirosue and Namie Amuro."
This sentence is vague; what is "this" referring to?
Also, I suggest alphabetizing the list of idols at the end, unless there is some reason why it isn't already (which is why I haven't done it). Commander Nemet 20:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I think she's more of a performance artist... But aside from that, if the definition of "idol" here is appearance-oriented, I would contend that Utada is NOT an "idol", as she is not marketed by her looks. -- OneTopJob6 20:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Seems too long and (as noted above) a bit vauge. I'd like to see it cut down to perhaps five. - brenneman {T} {L} 06:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Nor is Ayu, really, nor was she at the beginning of her career. The author is using the term rather broadly, as do many Westerners. Ayu, Utada, they are pop singers primarily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.178.126 ( talk) 16:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree and I think that the inclusion criteria should be least one appearance on Kohaku (by themselves so groups that invite their sister groups to be a part of their performance wouldn't count) along with at least one number one on the Oricon charts with the exceptions being:
I saw Perfume included under "First j-electro group, first girl group to have 5 consecutive #1 dvd releases, 2nd electronic group to perform in the Tokyo dome, won mnet award for best asia pop artist" this is an example of someone not using judgement. First to have #5 DVD releases? Not really that important. DSQ ( talk) 11:39, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Possibly the two main artists who come to my mind when I think of AIDORU are Rie Miyazawa and Aya Ueto. I'm suprised that they are not mentioned at all.
And this was mainly prominent in the 1980s, where there was a big movement of idols who were popular, but I see mostly not-so-popular recent artists mentioned.
Also, from what I can see, the list is extremely unorganized and frankly too long. I think just the biggest idols should be listed. I wish I knew more about the subject on a larger scale because personally I think this page does need to be cleaned up a lot. Mizerunmei 14:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Her album SWEET 19 BLUES was never the best selling album of Japan with 3 million copies. globe with their first album sold 4 million copies only in Japan in 1996, so that's impossible, and only Utada 's album outsold it later. Clouded 22:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
If you read the Japanese version of this same article there are many important differences. In fact, the english version is poorly accurate about idol definition. For example, Namie Amuro wasn't an idol, but a "post-idol artist" (ISBN:0-674-01773-0) and Utada Hikaru is a Top Artist/composer but not an Idol. Even in Japan the common people can understand about these differences, since they call "aidoru" to just some kind of artists, for example, these with "buri-buri iso" costumes, “purehearted and pretty,” sweet, childlike, humble, and honest people. Same girls or boys, Idols MUST BE into this classification. All other artists are "Celebrities" or "Top Artist" or "Singers", or "Tarento" or anything else. I propose to search Verificable Sources (books, magazine articles, JAPANESE VERSION of this same article, etc) for improve or to accurate the content. -- Cbpm 03:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
In my mind Japanese idols owe their career to being heavily "produced and promoted" by agencies and the media industry, rather than owing their success to personal talent and ambition, and therefore this should be included in the introduction. I won't put it in there personally as I'm not really competent in this matter. What do you think? Maikel ( talk) 19:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I just read "For a fuller understanding of both role play and the idealisation of youth in Japanese media and culture it is worth reading articles by Dr Sharon Kinsella, referenced below" could someone tell me why Wikipedia is telling people to read a book instead of going into detail about something. 86.161.70.226 ( talk) 23:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
The article needs to be rewritten. The lead section is unclear to those without prior knowledge.
Since the article is largely unsourced anyway and it can't be made any worse (IMO), the solution for me would be to randomly rewrite it (randomly at random times).
Here a citation from myself. Someone asked what the article (in some other language) was about exactly. I can add random stuff like this:
The article is about a segment of the Japanese entertainment (entertainment industry). There are performers of certain style that are called "idols". You can say being a idol is a profession, like being a singer or a dancer. But you can only be an idol when you are young. When idols grow up, they leave the idol industry (it's called "they graduate") and either return to being normal people (e.g. go to college to get a normal profession) or become singers and actors.
An "idol" is like a "starlet". It's like if a being a starlet would be a separate profession. A profession for young people.
Everything I say will be mainly about the Japanese music industry ("idol singers"). Being an idol is not considered to be a serious profession, it's like "I can sing and dance a little bit and I'm too cute for words".
For example, this pop group ( Shiritsu Ebisu Chugaku) is actually marketed to have the image of a band of middleschoolers who can't really sing or dance (they actually can sing and dance, though): [1], [2].
Being an idol (idol singer) means they sing cute songs and are marketed in a certain way. They are targeted mainly to the fans of opposite sex and they are not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends. They must be cute and perfect. If they disbehave, they are excluded. (There have been some scandals like that. For example, a person can be banned from activites for a certain period of time for smoking.)
All idols have a fervent following (idol fans) who act in a certain crazy way. (It looks like if the fans would "worship" them.) At the concert, the fans do what is called " wotagei". You can say it's like cheerleading, they support their idols when they perform. They actually invent something like a chant (a sequence of shouts) for every song, so the concerts sound very impressive thanks to the fans' chants. Watch the videos: [3] ( Momoiro Clover Z), [4] ( Cute).
You can say being an idol fan is like a subculture. It's somewhat similar to being a metalhead. Only metal fans mosh at the concerts and idol fans do the wotagei.
There are many companies that specialize in idols or have a separate section for creating idols.
The other thing is that kids usually become idols through auditions. (So it's kind of similar to TV shows like "Americal idol". I'm not sure if the idea and the usage of the word "idol" in this context were stolen from the Japanese.)
so as I said, idols are a type of Japanese entertainers who are marketed as cute ordinary people who can sing and dance and model, but are not professional at either singing or dancing or modelling. They are ordinary "girls/boys next door". It's like an idea of an ordinary girl who is so cute and adorable that the whole Japan falls in love with her and everyone wants to marry her or be her boyfriend. (But she can't have a boyfriend cause if she does, people won't worship her anymore.)
I would like to explain all this in the article (starting with the English one), but it's too difficult...
Another citation from myself.
The question was about the definition. "Who decides they are cute? The fans or the employer?"
[Who decides they are cute? The fans or the employer?] — The employer. An employer employs a girl or a boy as an idol (usually through an audition).
"Idol" is like a profession. It's like if being a starlet were a profession. It's not considered a serious profession, though. It's like "I can sing and dance a little bit and I'm cute". But Japanese idols are marketed in a certain way. And all idols have a ferocious following that acts in a certain way. What idol fans do is called " wotagei", it's like an art. The fans learn how to shout at live concerts, how to wave lightsticks. To do it correctly, you need to learn chants for every song. The fans with their chants are practically part of the show, watch the videos: [5], [6].
Anyway, you see, no one understands. Something must be done.
I propose (since the article is largely unsourced anyway) to write what we have to write. To write a better definition and add many other stuff so that the readers could actually understand what the article was about. And we can find sources later. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 10:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I have finally rewritten the lead. I must say that the more I edit it, the harder it is going to be to source it. I started with (almost) everything easily sourceable, but since have added much more. I basically have no other choice but to do it like that cause the topic is rather complicated.
I hope no one objects, cause there are basically two choices: 1. to return to equally unsourced previous version that was terrible, too; 2. to leave a version by someone who have been thoroughly thinking about it for, like, two years and after several years of being horrified by this article finally decided to rewrite it a little bit. :)
Since if I don't want to source it now and I would prefer to leave it like that for some time (cause the absence of references makes it easier to read and change), I will now post a few excepts from reliable sources that can prove that what I added is sourceable.
Here it is. I will post more here. Cause when I was writing I was thinking "I've heard this, I remember I've read this somewhere", so there is much more I can find sources for.
an attractive young actor, male or female, packaged and promoted as an adolescent role model .. The author explores how the idol-manufacturing industry absorbs young people into its system of production, molds them into marketable personalities, commercializes their images, and contributes to the construction of ideal images of the adolescent self.
A final musical genre is an idoru or "idol," largely a product of Japanese merchandising. Idol refers to the cute, girl-next-door singers who are designed, controlled, and marketed just like any other product. Talent agencies promote such starlets in advertising, music, television dramas, and performance tours.
'idols,' or heavily produced and promoted men and women who perform across media genres and platforms. They appear in magazines and advertisements, perform on TV and on stage, recorded and live.
In the Japanese context, though, The Alfee are not idols and should be seen as “serious” performers in the field
... rather than "manufactured stars" such as idols (Aoyagi 1999).
For major entertainment reporter Masaru Nashimoto, an idol must be young and have a frenzied following to the point of being a social phenomenon.
The 1980s is considered the golden age of idols, when devout fans formed "shineitai" cheering groups, taking in every concert and other public appearance of the target of their affections: usually a cute teen singer, with the latter being optional.
The 1990s saw attractive young singers snub the idol typecast, preferring to be viewed as artists who could sing, dance and perform, he said.
The concept of idol also evolved into subtypes: photogravure or magazine idols mainly pose as models, often in swimsuits, for magazines and DVDs; variety idols mainly appear on TV variety programs. Nashimoto meanwhile doubts magazine and variety idols actually qualify.
In the 1990s, singing programs began to lose viewers mainly because audiences grew tired of such programs, Nashimoto said. Young, good-looking singers were striving to become artists instead of idols.
"The definition of idols is blurry now. I'm not sure (photogravure and variety types) are idols, because they are very different from what idols were in the 1980s. But if they are, we could say there are numerous idols," Nashimoto said.
Idols do not belong to categories such as a singer, an actress, or a model. They are, just like Ellis, kawaii-cute-female-child-lolita-like persons in show business. Everyone adores the beauty and cuteness of the idols. They are not necessarily professional singers, but their CDs sell a lot, because their voices are kawaii, cute. They appear on TV programs and commercials, and even in the movies. Many people say that idols are just like "cute sisters next door", probably this is the main reason why idols were accepted by so many ordinary people in Japan.
— http://www.webcitation.org/68TMy9rFq, This source is not reliable, though.
Большую часть певцов-идолов образуют представительницы прекрасного пола. Их типичный репертуар состоит из простеньких мелодий, следующих преобладающей в данный момент моде в популярной музыке. Музыкальные способности не играют особо большой роли, - достижения певцов-идолов основываются в значительной мере на привлекательности их публичного имиджа.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 05:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
This is due to the comparatively overrepresentation of "idol" singers in the Japanese music industry. Japanese idols are carefully manufactured consumer products who do well for a few years before they retire to make room for the next rising star.
Fans describe idols, and by extension their relationships with them, as "pure" (junsui).
This purity also implies a sort of chastity on the part of the idol, ...
For example, in their often uncoordinated and unpolished dances, idols seem to be having fun; this is a "performance of pleasure" or "show of enjoyment" that is "not directed towards mastery" (McDonald 1997, 288–293). They are imagined to be in a place where (and a time, "youth," when) excellence is not demanded.
...adolescent fans can easily empathize with idols who are embarking on their own growth journey: from inexperienced debutantes to experienced public figures and performers....
states that people "adore idols for their sweetness and purity, ...
Pop idols emerged in Japan as a commercial genre in the general category of kayōkyoku (popular music) during the late 1960s and early 1070s.
Two broad points emerge from the interview data. One is that Japanese idols constitute a sort of "brand," not just pop singers or actors, but a lifestyle of urban affluence...
This consists of a series of adolescent personalities — aidoru, or "pop idols" — who are commodified as public role models in adolescent fashions and lifestyles.
Hundreds of young people participate in contests each year, hoping to become idols.
Until the early 1990s, the most common feature embodied by pop idols to enhance the sense of companionship was cuteness. Kawaiko-chan, or "cute boys and boys," became a synonym for pop idols in 1970s and 1980s (Figure 7.2).
... according to Kuroyanagi Tetsuko, ..., people adore cute idols for their sweetness, which evokes the sense that "they should be protected carefully" ...
Modern Japanese music is dominated by “idols,” a term in Japan referring to youthful performers who for the most part exude a wholesome image and put an emphasis on connecting with fans through all sorts of promotions.
Groups such as AKB48, Arashi, Momoiro Clover Z and many more define Japan’s contemporary idol scene, ...
Yet the history of idol music hasn’t been so steady, and has gone through various periods en route to becoming the country’s dominant form of J-pop.
Performers like Amachi Mari pushed a pure image (her nickname was “Snow White”) while also seeming more girl-next-door, the sort of singer young women could picture becoming or young men could see dating. Smoking, drinking or dating in public were (and are still) huge no-nos. These idols weren’t necessarily polished performers – part of the appeal lied in watching them blossom over time, giving fans a personal stake in the singers.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 06:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
One impossible thing to ignore in Japanese society is the obsession of everything cute.
Examining Japan’s obsession with cuteness.
Japanese culture has an obsession with youth and innocence; 13-year-old girls, like Shinobu in Love Hina, are considered ...
Idol characters such as the "cute style" and the "life-sized" persona (above average, but not outstanding) are introduced, ...
We then examine how "idol" singers are cultivated and promoted, ...
Today kayōukyoku, broadly defined, includes enka as well as "idols songs", "new music", theme songs. and Japanese rock. Idols songs are Western-style made-in-Japan versions of light rock, ballads, folk songs, or standards; this is the genre most popular among Japanese teenagers and young adults today.
Depending on her talent and appearance — the budding starlet might become a new teenage idol singer — a young professional who, with some lack, would last past her twenty-first birthday.
The depth of feeling and range of emotion in idol songs typically does not venture much beyond the "girl meets boy and lives happily ever after" variety, though the inverse variant, "girl loses boy and will be miserable forever," is also occasionally found.
the simple boy-girl idol music
a long list of idols and idol group which have dominated Japan's popular culture since 1960s.
Idol songs are typically romantic fantasies, which dwell on the well-worn themes of being in love, hoping to win the heart of another, and physical desire.
Promotion agencies, of course, orchestrated the development and marketing of idols and idol groups.
There are many idols and idol magazines in Taiwan that imitate Japanese idols and magazines.
According to Keith Cahoon, youth, looks, and “sentimentality” are the only requirements for a Japanese idol. Musical talent is of little ...
The Japanese pronunciation of “idol,” came into use in the 1970s and 1980s
... their early teens and groomed by production companies. ... Idols did not only sing, but also worked as actors, models, talk show hosts, and commercial sports people, suggesting that time spent in front of ...
They were idols in the sense that media exposure was intense and many of his singers began performing in their early-to-mid teens, but their aesthetic was totally different: Komure repackaged the female idol as part of the worldwide trend in dance music.
In this decade, it would be the male idols who would become one of the most important genre in the music market, ...
... pop to folk, and then New Music, back to the industry created idol ...
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 08:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
.. idols and celebrities. However, these celebrities are manufactured and promoted by the media, attaining their celebrity only as a consequence of their appearance in the media.
... for example, corporate press releases ... often involve formal, staged press events that;, in order to attract the media, employ idols ands celebrities as "image characters" (...) or spokepersons.
The value of idols does not necessarily lie in any distinctive singing ability. The main feature of what is called the Japanese aidoru (iodol) system is the production of an intimacy between stars and audiences and the blurring of the distance between professionals and amateurs...
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 23:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
One more source we can use:
Timothy J. Craig (8 April 2015).
Japan Pop: Inside the World of Japanese Popular Culture. Routledge. pp. 76–.
ISBN
978-1-317-46721-2. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 09:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
This article deals almost exclusively with female idol groups, when in fact male idol groups like the Johnny's ones (Arashi, NEWS etc.) are a big part of the industry too. None of them are even mentioned in the "Selective list of notable idols and idol groups" section of this article, and even though a few male idol groups are mentioned in other sections of the article, the overall focus on the "cute teenage girl" kind of idol creates a misleading picture.
The current definition, "a young manufactured star/starlet marketed as someone to be admired, usually for their cuteness", adds to this misleading picture. There's old idols and idols who are far from being stars or even starlets, who would be excluded by this definition, which is why I'm going to revert it to my earlier version, "an entertainment personality marketed as someone to be admired, usually for their cuteness or coolness". If you think this definition includes people that shouldn't be considered idols, let me know who they are.
MugiMafin ( talk) 15:56, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I've
asked for a third opinion. I just want to say that we shouldn't change the definition to a Japanese dictionary one for the word "アイドル" ("idol"). Cause this article is about a particular modern-days entertainment-industry phenomenon in Japan, not just a "あこがれの的", "熱狂的なファンをもつ人".
A note on the Japanese Wikipedia article. The corresponding article in the Japanese Wikipedia is called "
アイドル" ("Idol") and provides a generalised definition, exactly the same as on the disambiguation page "
アイドル (曖昧さ回避)". I don't think it is a good idea to do the same thing here cause our article is called "Japanese idol" and this is not the place to describe the general idea of "pop idols". (By the way, the Japanese Wikipedia doesn't have articles "
Pop icon" and "
Teen idol".)
Also, the definition in the "
アイドル" article has changed several times. At one point, a Japanese user replaced the definition with the one he translated from the English Wikipedia article:
[8], So, for some prolonged time the definitions here and in the Japanese Wikipedia were the same. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 22:15, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
It's not really possible to provide a third opinion when there is no dispute. And there is no dispute here, just one person writing their opinion on the talk page, and another saying "Sure, but where are the sources". Moscow Connection is correct, you need reliable sources. That's it really. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 03:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC) OpenFuture ( talk) 03:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Since the late 1960s a ubiquitous feature of popular culture in Japan has been the "idol," an attractive young actor, male or female, packaged and promoted as an adolescent role model and exploited by the entertainment, fashion, cosmetic, and publishing industries to market trendy products. This book offers ethnographic case studies regarding the symbolic qualities of idols and how these qualities relate to the conceptualization of selfhood among adolescents in Japan and elsewhere in East Asia. The author explores how the idol-manufacturing industry absorbs young people into its system of production, molds them into marketable personalities, commercializes their images, and contributes to the construction of ideal images of the adolescent self.
This dissertation focuses on the production and development of a conspicuous, widespread culture phenomenon in contemporary Japan, which is characterized by numerous young, mediapromoted personalities, or pop-idols, who are groomed for public consumption. The research, based on eighteen months of in-depth fieldwork in the Japanese entertainment industry, aims to contribute to the understanding of the allegorical role played by pop-idols in the creation of youth culture. Pop-idols are analyzed as personified symbols that function as vehicles of cultural production. The principal issues suggested in this research include: the criteria of popidol production; the ways in which pop-idols are produced; the perceptions of pop-idol performances by producers, performers, and consumers; the ways in which idol personalities are differentiated from each other; the ways in which pop-idol performances are distinguished from other styles or genres; and the social, cultural, political, economic, and historical roots as well as consequences of pop-idols' popularity. These issues are explored through the examination of female pop-idols. The single, most important function of pop-idols is to represent young people's fashions, customs, and lifestyles. To this end, the pop-idol industry generates a variety of styles that can provide the young audience with pathways toward appropriate adulthood. They do this within their power structure as well as their commercial interest to capitalize on adolescence - which in Japan is considered the period in which individuals are expected to explore themselves in the adult social world. The stylized promotion, practiced differently by promotion agencies that strive to merchandise pop-idol images and win public recognition, constitutes a field of symbolic contestation. The stage is thus set for an investigation of the strategies, techniques, and processes of adolescent identity formation as reified in the construction of idol personalities. This dissertation offers a contextualized account of dialogue that occurs between capitalism, particular rhetoric of self-making, and the lifestyle of consumers, mediated by pop-idols and their manufacturing agencies that function together as the cultural apparatus. The analysis developed in this dissertation hopes to provide theoretical and methodological contributions to the study of celebrities in other social, cultural, and historical settings.
Kawaiko-chan, or "cute girls and boys," has become a synonym for idols in Japanese, representing carefully crafted public personae that try to appeal to viewers' compassion.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
The first new music performers were accomplished singer-songwriters, rather than “manufactured stars” such as idols (Aoyagi 1999).
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Going throught a difficult period of of physical and emotional development themselves, adolescent fans can easily empathize with idols who are embarking on their own growth journey: from inexperienced debutantes to experienced public figures and performers.
The sources are already used in the article. Case closed.
If you are really interested in improving this article, I suggest you add to the history section where you can discuss how Japanese idols have changed in the last 20 years or so. You can also start a new section where you can discuss the ambiguity of the term. When you finish with all this, we'll look at the new sources you have used and we will tweak the definition. But right now, I'm very sorry, I can't continue fighting about two sentences like this. I have other things to do. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
1. About this tag:
[10]. It doesn't apply here cause the statement is sourced.
2. The only sentence you added to the article so far is (technically) partly unsourced and partly an original research.
"Although idols are often defined as something like "young manufactured stars/starlets", there are idols who push the boundaries of such a definition, like members of the groups
SMAP and
Arashi, who range in age from around 30 to over 40."
Yes, I know there are sources that say all or almost all of this elsewhere in the article, but where are they? Why didn't you take time to add proper references?
And yes, I know that I've asked you to do it already and that you've added a reference. But the reference is for the ages of the members of SMAP:
[11]. It's simply their profile on the official site, how can this be used for anything but "Four SMAP members are over 40"? The sentence you added is still unsourced.
3. You said how bad the article was.. Yes, it is bad. But by adding more unreferenced sentences and more original research you are just making it worse.
4. In short, I don't see you wanting to do any work on the article. I was hoping that you do something useful and constructive, but instead you added more unreferenced stuff and "attacked" the definition yet again.
5. If you want more people to look at this discussion, I can suggest you to post a message at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. But if you remember, I've already posted there and the only person who came was
Nihonjoe.
5. The definition can be improved, yes. But we need more sources. More articles and books on the subject. Go and find them. You won't succeed in changing the definition like this, by force. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 00:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
I decided to start looking for some better sources after all, and it turned out the source needed to improve our definition has been right in front of our eyes this whole time. It's this book, and it's already listed in the references. It starts with a foreword from Aoyagi, who's been dealing with the topic for over a decade now and who even happens to have two of his books (old ones though) listed in our sources. In this foreword (from 2012), he says the following: "Idol performance has demonstrated new turns since I introduced its symbolic significance to the world, and changed in ways I would have never expected: instances are the growing popularity of Japanese pop idols alongside cutesy phenomena, manga and anime, as well as centers of “Cool Japan,” such as Shibuya and Akihabara, among European and American audiences in a form that may be called neo-Orientalism; the influx of Korean idols, such as BoA, Jinki, Kara, and Shōjo Jidai, into Japan’s pop idol scene; the transformation of idol imagery from cutesy to more sexy, classy, and/or hip personal configurations alongside emergent hybrid buzzwords, such as erokawa (sexy-cutesy), kirekawa (classy-cutesy), and kawakakoii (cutesy-trendy)". The last part justifies expanding the object of admiration in our definition from "usually cuteness" to "cuteness, sexiness, classiness and/or hipness".
The foreword is followed by an introduction from the editors in which they describe idols in the following way: "Such is the power of “idols,” a word used in Japan to refer to highly produced and promoted singers, models, and media personalities. Idols can be male or female, and tend to be young, or present themselves as such". "Highly produced" is preferable to "manufactured" because it's more neutral and more easily allows for the inclusion of self-produced net-idols. "Singers, models and media personalities" is preferable to "stars/starlets" because it's less open to (mis)interpretation and more easily allows for the inclusion of idols with little stardom. Finally, the attribute "young" is weakened. Idols aren't necessarily young, they only "tend to be young".
MugiMafin ( talk) 12:21, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Another quote.
For major entertainment reporter Masaru Nashimoto, an idol must be young and have a frenzied following to the point of being a social phenomenon.
@ Nihonjoe:, @ Oshwah:, @ EdJohnston:, @ MugiMafin: Can we close the discussion about ages now at least? My opinion is as follows: "young" — ok, "manufactured" — ok (net celebrities don't count, they along with gravure idols, which is more or less simply another word for "model", and other "something idols" can be discussed in a separate section), "cute" — add that they are not only cute, but since 1990s also cool, hip, whatever. It should be understood from the definition that cuteness in the main or common characteristic, but that idols have become cooler or whatever. In short, the first two thirds of the definition stay as they are now, the part after comma (about cuteness) is expanded.
And I have an idea of a quick fix. (I'm just afraid that it is not usually done on Wikipedia.) We can create a section titled "Definition of the term idol" or something like this and put there five or so definitions or opinions about who idols are. Just choose from the ones that are already cited on this talk page. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 21:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
To stop the silly disruptive reverting, I have protected this page to prevent editing by anyone other than an admin. Please come to a consensus about the definition and whatever else you're discussing in the above TL;DR wall of text, and then ask for the change to be made using {{
edit protected}}
. Thank you. ···
日本穣 ·
投稿 ·
Talk to Nihonjoe ·
Join WP Japan! 21:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
The sections "History" and "Culture" have a pretty big overlap, which is why I'd like to merge them into one. The content of the "Modern idols" section is historical too, so that could go into the merger too. Same with "Net idols". The new merged section would have subsections though of course.
"Virtual idols" and "Photo idols" could go in one separate section like "Other types of idols". Actually, "Photo idols" can be removed completely since it's already covered by the link to the article "Gravure idol" in the "See also" section.
Any thoughts about or objections to any of this? MugiMafin ( talk) 11:32, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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As a whole the article is well written, focused and unbiased. As noted in the article, sections of it need citation or examples for relevant information. Several of the citations were checked, but did not lead to the actual referenced portion of the source. Reference number 8 for example leads to an Amazon page for the referenced book, and the following references lead to the Google books page with the books in English, but the Google Books page being in Russian. None of the references checked had links to the permission to share the information as noted in the training. A few of the other references such as for the Asahi Shinbun were locked behind a paywall, and not able to be freely accessed. Overall the article citations need work.
The talk page for the article is mostly inactive though it does appear that there has been an effort to rewrite, and improve the article. Some of the references listed on the talk page, however are some of the same ones that have issues as mentioned above. There does seem to be disagreements between the writers, and editors of the article about correct wording, and sourcing for it.
The article is part of the groups as start class, high priority for Japan/Culture, and mid priority Women's History, and Sexuality Discussion of this topic seems mainly limited to what makes an idol, and idol, and who is actually an idol.
My question for the article is this, is there any current work or research being done on the article, and if so who is doing it? EdogawaConan2 ( talk) 00:30, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
The group Momoiro Clover Z is blatantly promoted ( WP:PROMOTION) on the article also raising WP:BALANCE issue. All other groups, as is practice in every music article, notability is established on commercial success and that means chart success and selling music records. That's why AKB48, Morning Musume and Babymetal are mentioned in the lead, although instead of Babymetal should be Arashi due to commercial success in the 2010s, however, in comparison to the most notable music act who are selling millions of records and getting certifications, MCZ according to Momoiro Clover Z discography most of the time their singles barely sell 50,000 copes while albums barely sell over 100,000 copies (lowest Gold certification by RIAJ). Their notability is claimed on the basis of journal surveys between 2013-2017 in which "has been ranked as the most popular female Japanese idol group", which again is not made by authoritative Oricon, in which notable poll of 20,000 for "Favorite Artist Ranking" they are not even featured in Top 50 and Top 20 acts for example between 2015-2017 ( [18], [19], [20]), while others are. Hence, placing them in the lead, and as the first image (!), is nothing else but an attempt to promote them on Wikipedia without any reliable WP:WEIGHT credibility. Hence I removed their mention from lead and edited other ( [21]).-- 78.2.109.23 ( talk) 12:17, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Currently the photos represent the major idol projects / talent agencies. AKB48 is Yasushi Akimoto / AKS, Momoiro Clover Z is Stardust Promotion, Morning Musime is Hello! Project, Babymetal is Amuse, Fairies are Avex. I don't see any reason why this balance should be changed. I would gladly add a couple of photos of Japanese boy bands (Johnny's groups), but I don't know of any available on Wikipedia Commons. I suggest you work in this direction and find some new photographs instead of removing the photos that are already present. AKB48 isn't the only Japanese idol group worth a mention (a photo) here. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 12:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Korean idol which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:47, 21 December 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbm1058 ( talk • contribs)
@ Lullabying: I think you are doing a good job. so I won't interfere, but I'm concerned about you removing the selective list of active idols and some links to particular groups.
I've also noticed that while you removed all mention of particular Morning Musume's sister groups with a rather harsh and dismissive edit summary ( "Removed some WP:UNDUE weight on information about certain groups, since this article is supposed to be about idols in general") (and that was despite S/mileage being prominently mentioned in the CYZO article used as the source), you've added links to the articles you've worked on or created, such as " Koharu Kusumi", " Stabbing of Mayu Tomita", and "NGT48" (§ "December 2018 Maho Yamaguchi assault"). And again, you decided to mention the Mayu Tomita and Maho Yamaguchi incidents, but didn't mention the saw attack on AKB48 members that was the third attack mentioned in the source. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 01:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed some problems with your version. You've removed everything about cuteness and just switched it for "image". While there are multiple sources that say that idols are supposed to to be cute. I was sure you just moved the bit about cuteness to the second paragraph or somewhere like that, but it's nowhere to be found at all. The word "cute" isn't used in the article at all now. Which is a nonsense. I suggest you add a second paragraph to detail which image idols are supposed to have exactly. "Cute", "attractive", maybe "cool", etc. You can explain how their image progressed and how nowadays female idols aren't all just "cute", that that was a requirement a while ago but now there are different idol groups that have different images / are marketed differently.
But I don't want to just revert you (I mean the first sentence) cause I see how you are working on the article and expanding it. So it will probably be a good idea for me to stay aside for now and see how this article develops.
P. S. I have other plans, so I'm now trying to avoid getting into a lengthy discussion. I guess the best solution for me will be to forget about this article now. For a couple of months or so. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 07:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I think once the original research concerns are addressed (which is basically information on how idols were viewed in each time period), it might be a good idea to nominate this as a good article. lullabying ( talk) 03:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
I thought I'd just note the following edit I made to the lead section. The word "manufactured" is problematic as it is the making of goods or wares for sale. You can say that you can manufacture an image, as this is an attribute of thing (including a person), but it is problematic when talking about actual entertainers as it implies that the entertainer is an object. Objectification is something we want to avoid on Wikipedia for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I have changed the sentence to say "selected, trained and marketed". I thought it best to explain my edit on the talk page so people understand my reasoning. - Aussie Article Writer ( talk) 03:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Why is this in the Anime and manga wikiproject Qwv ( talk) 10:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
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I came to this page because I was watching a movie featuring a japanese idol group, and i didn't really understand what that was. after reading this page I got the impression they are manufactured pop acts a la Britney Spears, but then I clicked on Beppin mag and that is some sort of mens mag/Playboy/naked centerfold thing? I think this article may need some clarification as to how much of this scene is for teens and how much of it is a sex industry thing aimed at adults, as this seems to me to be an important distinction between the japanese idol scene and the manufactured pop scene in the west. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.74.73 ( talk) 08:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
What happens to the ones that go out of favor with the public?
I think this is an interesting article, but it also contains a huge flaw in that it gives the mistaken impression that idols are exclusively female. This is quite clearly false - the role of male idols such as SMAP, V6 and Shonentai is almost (if not equally) as important as those of their female counterparts in Japanese pop culture. Surely they need to be mentioned?
"Good examples of this are Ayumi Hamasaki, Noriko Sakai, Ryoko Hirosue and Namie Amuro."
This sentence is vague; what is "this" referring to?
Also, I suggest alphabetizing the list of idols at the end, unless there is some reason why it isn't already (which is why I haven't done it). Commander Nemet 20:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I think she's more of a performance artist... But aside from that, if the definition of "idol" here is appearance-oriented, I would contend that Utada is NOT an "idol", as she is not marketed by her looks. -- OneTopJob6 20:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Seems too long and (as noted above) a bit vauge. I'd like to see it cut down to perhaps five. - brenneman {T} {L} 06:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Nor is Ayu, really, nor was she at the beginning of her career. The author is using the term rather broadly, as do many Westerners. Ayu, Utada, they are pop singers primarily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.178.126 ( talk) 16:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree and I think that the inclusion criteria should be least one appearance on Kohaku (by themselves so groups that invite their sister groups to be a part of their performance wouldn't count) along with at least one number one on the Oricon charts with the exceptions being:
I saw Perfume included under "First j-electro group, first girl group to have 5 consecutive #1 dvd releases, 2nd electronic group to perform in the Tokyo dome, won mnet award for best asia pop artist" this is an example of someone not using judgement. First to have #5 DVD releases? Not really that important. DSQ ( talk) 11:39, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Possibly the two main artists who come to my mind when I think of AIDORU are Rie Miyazawa and Aya Ueto. I'm suprised that they are not mentioned at all.
And this was mainly prominent in the 1980s, where there was a big movement of idols who were popular, but I see mostly not-so-popular recent artists mentioned.
Also, from what I can see, the list is extremely unorganized and frankly too long. I think just the biggest idols should be listed. I wish I knew more about the subject on a larger scale because personally I think this page does need to be cleaned up a lot. Mizerunmei 14:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Her album SWEET 19 BLUES was never the best selling album of Japan with 3 million copies. globe with their first album sold 4 million copies only in Japan in 1996, so that's impossible, and only Utada 's album outsold it later. Clouded 22:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
If you read the Japanese version of this same article there are many important differences. In fact, the english version is poorly accurate about idol definition. For example, Namie Amuro wasn't an idol, but a "post-idol artist" (ISBN:0-674-01773-0) and Utada Hikaru is a Top Artist/composer but not an Idol. Even in Japan the common people can understand about these differences, since they call "aidoru" to just some kind of artists, for example, these with "buri-buri iso" costumes, “purehearted and pretty,” sweet, childlike, humble, and honest people. Same girls or boys, Idols MUST BE into this classification. All other artists are "Celebrities" or "Top Artist" or "Singers", or "Tarento" or anything else. I propose to search Verificable Sources (books, magazine articles, JAPANESE VERSION of this same article, etc) for improve or to accurate the content. -- Cbpm 03:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
In my mind Japanese idols owe their career to being heavily "produced and promoted" by agencies and the media industry, rather than owing their success to personal talent and ambition, and therefore this should be included in the introduction. I won't put it in there personally as I'm not really competent in this matter. What do you think? Maikel ( talk) 19:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I just read "For a fuller understanding of both role play and the idealisation of youth in Japanese media and culture it is worth reading articles by Dr Sharon Kinsella, referenced below" could someone tell me why Wikipedia is telling people to read a book instead of going into detail about something. 86.161.70.226 ( talk) 23:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
The article needs to be rewritten. The lead section is unclear to those without prior knowledge.
Since the article is largely unsourced anyway and it can't be made any worse (IMO), the solution for me would be to randomly rewrite it (randomly at random times).
Here a citation from myself. Someone asked what the article (in some other language) was about exactly. I can add random stuff like this:
The article is about a segment of the Japanese entertainment (entertainment industry). There are performers of certain style that are called "idols". You can say being a idol is a profession, like being a singer or a dancer. But you can only be an idol when you are young. When idols grow up, they leave the idol industry (it's called "they graduate") and either return to being normal people (e.g. go to college to get a normal profession) or become singers and actors.
An "idol" is like a "starlet". It's like if a being a starlet would be a separate profession. A profession for young people.
Everything I say will be mainly about the Japanese music industry ("idol singers"). Being an idol is not considered to be a serious profession, it's like "I can sing and dance a little bit and I'm too cute for words".
For example, this pop group ( Shiritsu Ebisu Chugaku) is actually marketed to have the image of a band of middleschoolers who can't really sing or dance (they actually can sing and dance, though): [1], [2].
Being an idol (idol singer) means they sing cute songs and are marketed in a certain way. They are targeted mainly to the fans of opposite sex and they are not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends. They must be cute and perfect. If they disbehave, they are excluded. (There have been some scandals like that. For example, a person can be banned from activites for a certain period of time for smoking.)
All idols have a fervent following (idol fans) who act in a certain crazy way. (It looks like if the fans would "worship" them.) At the concert, the fans do what is called " wotagei". You can say it's like cheerleading, they support their idols when they perform. They actually invent something like a chant (a sequence of shouts) for every song, so the concerts sound very impressive thanks to the fans' chants. Watch the videos: [3] ( Momoiro Clover Z), [4] ( Cute).
You can say being an idol fan is like a subculture. It's somewhat similar to being a metalhead. Only metal fans mosh at the concerts and idol fans do the wotagei.
There are many companies that specialize in idols or have a separate section for creating idols.
The other thing is that kids usually become idols through auditions. (So it's kind of similar to TV shows like "Americal idol". I'm not sure if the idea and the usage of the word "idol" in this context were stolen from the Japanese.)
so as I said, idols are a type of Japanese entertainers who are marketed as cute ordinary people who can sing and dance and model, but are not professional at either singing or dancing or modelling. They are ordinary "girls/boys next door". It's like an idea of an ordinary girl who is so cute and adorable that the whole Japan falls in love with her and everyone wants to marry her or be her boyfriend. (But she can't have a boyfriend cause if she does, people won't worship her anymore.)
I would like to explain all this in the article (starting with the English one), but it's too difficult...
Another citation from myself.
The question was about the definition. "Who decides they are cute? The fans or the employer?"
[Who decides they are cute? The fans or the employer?] — The employer. An employer employs a girl or a boy as an idol (usually through an audition).
"Idol" is like a profession. It's like if being a starlet were a profession. It's not considered a serious profession, though. It's like "I can sing and dance a little bit and I'm cute". But Japanese idols are marketed in a certain way. And all idols have a ferocious following that acts in a certain way. What idol fans do is called " wotagei", it's like an art. The fans learn how to shout at live concerts, how to wave lightsticks. To do it correctly, you need to learn chants for every song. The fans with their chants are practically part of the show, watch the videos: [5], [6].
Anyway, you see, no one understands. Something must be done.
I propose (since the article is largely unsourced anyway) to write what we have to write. To write a better definition and add many other stuff so that the readers could actually understand what the article was about. And we can find sources later. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 10:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I have finally rewritten the lead. I must say that the more I edit it, the harder it is going to be to source it. I started with (almost) everything easily sourceable, but since have added much more. I basically have no other choice but to do it like that cause the topic is rather complicated.
I hope no one objects, cause there are basically two choices: 1. to return to equally unsourced previous version that was terrible, too; 2. to leave a version by someone who have been thoroughly thinking about it for, like, two years and after several years of being horrified by this article finally decided to rewrite it a little bit. :)
Since if I don't want to source it now and I would prefer to leave it like that for some time (cause the absence of references makes it easier to read and change), I will now post a few excepts from reliable sources that can prove that what I added is sourceable.
Here it is. I will post more here. Cause when I was writing I was thinking "I've heard this, I remember I've read this somewhere", so there is much more I can find sources for.
an attractive young actor, male or female, packaged and promoted as an adolescent role model .. The author explores how the idol-manufacturing industry absorbs young people into its system of production, molds them into marketable personalities, commercializes their images, and contributes to the construction of ideal images of the adolescent self.
A final musical genre is an idoru or "idol," largely a product of Japanese merchandising. Idol refers to the cute, girl-next-door singers who are designed, controlled, and marketed just like any other product. Talent agencies promote such starlets in advertising, music, television dramas, and performance tours.
'idols,' or heavily produced and promoted men and women who perform across media genres and platforms. They appear in magazines and advertisements, perform on TV and on stage, recorded and live.
In the Japanese context, though, The Alfee are not idols and should be seen as “serious” performers in the field
... rather than "manufactured stars" such as idols (Aoyagi 1999).
For major entertainment reporter Masaru Nashimoto, an idol must be young and have a frenzied following to the point of being a social phenomenon.
The 1980s is considered the golden age of idols, when devout fans formed "shineitai" cheering groups, taking in every concert and other public appearance of the target of their affections: usually a cute teen singer, with the latter being optional.
The 1990s saw attractive young singers snub the idol typecast, preferring to be viewed as artists who could sing, dance and perform, he said.
The concept of idol also evolved into subtypes: photogravure or magazine idols mainly pose as models, often in swimsuits, for magazines and DVDs; variety idols mainly appear on TV variety programs. Nashimoto meanwhile doubts magazine and variety idols actually qualify.
In the 1990s, singing programs began to lose viewers mainly because audiences grew tired of such programs, Nashimoto said. Young, good-looking singers were striving to become artists instead of idols.
"The definition of idols is blurry now. I'm not sure (photogravure and variety types) are idols, because they are very different from what idols were in the 1980s. But if they are, we could say there are numerous idols," Nashimoto said.
Idols do not belong to categories such as a singer, an actress, or a model. They are, just like Ellis, kawaii-cute-female-child-lolita-like persons in show business. Everyone adores the beauty and cuteness of the idols. They are not necessarily professional singers, but their CDs sell a lot, because their voices are kawaii, cute. They appear on TV programs and commercials, and even in the movies. Many people say that idols are just like "cute sisters next door", probably this is the main reason why idols were accepted by so many ordinary people in Japan.
— http://www.webcitation.org/68TMy9rFq, This source is not reliable, though.
Большую часть певцов-идолов образуют представительницы прекрасного пола. Их типичный репертуар состоит из простеньких мелодий, следующих преобладающей в данный момент моде в популярной музыке. Музыкальные способности не играют особо большой роли, - достижения певцов-идолов основываются в значительной мере на привлекательности их публичного имиджа.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 05:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
This is due to the comparatively overrepresentation of "idol" singers in the Japanese music industry. Japanese idols are carefully manufactured consumer products who do well for a few years before they retire to make room for the next rising star.
Fans describe idols, and by extension their relationships with them, as "pure" (junsui).
This purity also implies a sort of chastity on the part of the idol, ...
For example, in their often uncoordinated and unpolished dances, idols seem to be having fun; this is a "performance of pleasure" or "show of enjoyment" that is "not directed towards mastery" (McDonald 1997, 288–293). They are imagined to be in a place where (and a time, "youth," when) excellence is not demanded.
...adolescent fans can easily empathize with idols who are embarking on their own growth journey: from inexperienced debutantes to experienced public figures and performers....
states that people "adore idols for their sweetness and purity, ...
Pop idols emerged in Japan as a commercial genre in the general category of kayōkyoku (popular music) during the late 1960s and early 1070s.
Two broad points emerge from the interview data. One is that Japanese idols constitute a sort of "brand," not just pop singers or actors, but a lifestyle of urban affluence...
This consists of a series of adolescent personalities — aidoru, or "pop idols" — who are commodified as public role models in adolescent fashions and lifestyles.
Hundreds of young people participate in contests each year, hoping to become idols.
Until the early 1990s, the most common feature embodied by pop idols to enhance the sense of companionship was cuteness. Kawaiko-chan, or "cute boys and boys," became a synonym for pop idols in 1970s and 1980s (Figure 7.2).
... according to Kuroyanagi Tetsuko, ..., people adore cute idols for their sweetness, which evokes the sense that "they should be protected carefully" ...
Modern Japanese music is dominated by “idols,” a term in Japan referring to youthful performers who for the most part exude a wholesome image and put an emphasis on connecting with fans through all sorts of promotions.
Groups such as AKB48, Arashi, Momoiro Clover Z and many more define Japan’s contemporary idol scene, ...
Yet the history of idol music hasn’t been so steady, and has gone through various periods en route to becoming the country’s dominant form of J-pop.
Performers like Amachi Mari pushed a pure image (her nickname was “Snow White”) while also seeming more girl-next-door, the sort of singer young women could picture becoming or young men could see dating. Smoking, drinking or dating in public were (and are still) huge no-nos. These idols weren’t necessarily polished performers – part of the appeal lied in watching them blossom over time, giving fans a personal stake in the singers.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 06:14, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
One impossible thing to ignore in Japanese society is the obsession of everything cute.
Examining Japan’s obsession with cuteness.
Japanese culture has an obsession with youth and innocence; 13-year-old girls, like Shinobu in Love Hina, are considered ...
Idol characters such as the "cute style" and the "life-sized" persona (above average, but not outstanding) are introduced, ...
We then examine how "idol" singers are cultivated and promoted, ...
Today kayōukyoku, broadly defined, includes enka as well as "idols songs", "new music", theme songs. and Japanese rock. Idols songs are Western-style made-in-Japan versions of light rock, ballads, folk songs, or standards; this is the genre most popular among Japanese teenagers and young adults today.
Depending on her talent and appearance — the budding starlet might become a new teenage idol singer — a young professional who, with some lack, would last past her twenty-first birthday.
The depth of feeling and range of emotion in idol songs typically does not venture much beyond the "girl meets boy and lives happily ever after" variety, though the inverse variant, "girl loses boy and will be miserable forever," is also occasionally found.
the simple boy-girl idol music
a long list of idols and idol group which have dominated Japan's popular culture since 1960s.
Idol songs are typically romantic fantasies, which dwell on the well-worn themes of being in love, hoping to win the heart of another, and physical desire.
Promotion agencies, of course, orchestrated the development and marketing of idols and idol groups.
There are many idols and idol magazines in Taiwan that imitate Japanese idols and magazines.
According to Keith Cahoon, youth, looks, and “sentimentality” are the only requirements for a Japanese idol. Musical talent is of little ...
The Japanese pronunciation of “idol,” came into use in the 1970s and 1980s
... their early teens and groomed by production companies. ... Idols did not only sing, but also worked as actors, models, talk show hosts, and commercial sports people, suggesting that time spent in front of ...
They were idols in the sense that media exposure was intense and many of his singers began performing in their early-to-mid teens, but their aesthetic was totally different: Komure repackaged the female idol as part of the worldwide trend in dance music.
In this decade, it would be the male idols who would become one of the most important genre in the music market, ...
... pop to folk, and then New Music, back to the industry created idol ...
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 08:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
.. idols and celebrities. However, these celebrities are manufactured and promoted by the media, attaining their celebrity only as a consequence of their appearance in the media.
... for example, corporate press releases ... often involve formal, staged press events that;, in order to attract the media, employ idols ands celebrities as "image characters" (...) or spokepersons.
The value of idols does not necessarily lie in any distinctive singing ability. The main feature of what is called the Japanese aidoru (iodol) system is the production of an intimacy between stars and audiences and the blurring of the distance between professionals and amateurs...
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 23:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
One more source we can use:
Timothy J. Craig (8 April 2015).
Japan Pop: Inside the World of Japanese Popular Culture. Routledge. pp. 76–.
ISBN
978-1-317-46721-2. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 09:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
This article deals almost exclusively with female idol groups, when in fact male idol groups like the Johnny's ones (Arashi, NEWS etc.) are a big part of the industry too. None of them are even mentioned in the "Selective list of notable idols and idol groups" section of this article, and even though a few male idol groups are mentioned in other sections of the article, the overall focus on the "cute teenage girl" kind of idol creates a misleading picture.
The current definition, "a young manufactured star/starlet marketed as someone to be admired, usually for their cuteness", adds to this misleading picture. There's old idols and idols who are far from being stars or even starlets, who would be excluded by this definition, which is why I'm going to revert it to my earlier version, "an entertainment personality marketed as someone to be admired, usually for their cuteness or coolness". If you think this definition includes people that shouldn't be considered idols, let me know who they are.
MugiMafin ( talk) 15:56, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
I've
asked for a third opinion. I just want to say that we shouldn't change the definition to a Japanese dictionary one for the word "アイドル" ("idol"). Cause this article is about a particular modern-days entertainment-industry phenomenon in Japan, not just a "あこがれの的", "熱狂的なファンをもつ人".
A note on the Japanese Wikipedia article. The corresponding article in the Japanese Wikipedia is called "
アイドル" ("Idol") and provides a generalised definition, exactly the same as on the disambiguation page "
アイドル (曖昧さ回避)". I don't think it is a good idea to do the same thing here cause our article is called "Japanese idol" and this is not the place to describe the general idea of "pop idols". (By the way, the Japanese Wikipedia doesn't have articles "
Pop icon" and "
Teen idol".)
Also, the definition in the "
アイドル" article has changed several times. At one point, a Japanese user replaced the definition with the one he translated from the English Wikipedia article:
[8], So, for some prolonged time the definitions here and in the Japanese Wikipedia were the same. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 22:15, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
It's not really possible to provide a third opinion when there is no dispute. And there is no dispute here, just one person writing their opinion on the talk page, and another saying "Sure, but where are the sources". Moscow Connection is correct, you need reliable sources. That's it really. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 03:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC) OpenFuture ( talk) 03:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Since the late 1960s a ubiquitous feature of popular culture in Japan has been the "idol," an attractive young actor, male or female, packaged and promoted as an adolescent role model and exploited by the entertainment, fashion, cosmetic, and publishing industries to market trendy products. This book offers ethnographic case studies regarding the symbolic qualities of idols and how these qualities relate to the conceptualization of selfhood among adolescents in Japan and elsewhere in East Asia. The author explores how the idol-manufacturing industry absorbs young people into its system of production, molds them into marketable personalities, commercializes their images, and contributes to the construction of ideal images of the adolescent self.
This dissertation focuses on the production and development of a conspicuous, widespread culture phenomenon in contemporary Japan, which is characterized by numerous young, mediapromoted personalities, or pop-idols, who are groomed for public consumption. The research, based on eighteen months of in-depth fieldwork in the Japanese entertainment industry, aims to contribute to the understanding of the allegorical role played by pop-idols in the creation of youth culture. Pop-idols are analyzed as personified symbols that function as vehicles of cultural production. The principal issues suggested in this research include: the criteria of popidol production; the ways in which pop-idols are produced; the perceptions of pop-idol performances by producers, performers, and consumers; the ways in which idol personalities are differentiated from each other; the ways in which pop-idol performances are distinguished from other styles or genres; and the social, cultural, political, economic, and historical roots as well as consequences of pop-idols' popularity. These issues are explored through the examination of female pop-idols. The single, most important function of pop-idols is to represent young people's fashions, customs, and lifestyles. To this end, the pop-idol industry generates a variety of styles that can provide the young audience with pathways toward appropriate adulthood. They do this within their power structure as well as their commercial interest to capitalize on adolescence - which in Japan is considered the period in which individuals are expected to explore themselves in the adult social world. The stylized promotion, practiced differently by promotion agencies that strive to merchandise pop-idol images and win public recognition, constitutes a field of symbolic contestation. The stage is thus set for an investigation of the strategies, techniques, and processes of adolescent identity formation as reified in the construction of idol personalities. This dissertation offers a contextualized account of dialogue that occurs between capitalism, particular rhetoric of self-making, and the lifestyle of consumers, mediated by pop-idols and their manufacturing agencies that function together as the cultural apparatus. The analysis developed in this dissertation hopes to provide theoretical and methodological contributions to the study of celebrities in other social, cultural, and historical settings.
Kawaiko-chan, or "cute girls and boys," has become a synonym for idols in Japanese, representing carefully crafted public personae that try to appeal to viewers' compassion.
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
The first new music performers were accomplished singer-songwriters, rather than “manufactured stars” such as idols (Aoyagi 1999).
-- Moscow Connection ( talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Going throught a difficult period of of physical and emotional development themselves, adolescent fans can easily empathize with idols who are embarking on their own growth journey: from inexperienced debutantes to experienced public figures and performers.
The sources are already used in the article. Case closed.
If you are really interested in improving this article, I suggest you add to the history section where you can discuss how Japanese idols have changed in the last 20 years or so. You can also start a new section where you can discuss the ambiguity of the term. When you finish with all this, we'll look at the new sources you have used and we will tweak the definition. But right now, I'm very sorry, I can't continue fighting about two sentences like this. I have other things to do. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 20:02, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
1. About this tag:
[10]. It doesn't apply here cause the statement is sourced.
2. The only sentence you added to the article so far is (technically) partly unsourced and partly an original research.
"Although idols are often defined as something like "young manufactured stars/starlets", there are idols who push the boundaries of such a definition, like members of the groups
SMAP and
Arashi, who range in age from around 30 to over 40."
Yes, I know there are sources that say all or almost all of this elsewhere in the article, but where are they? Why didn't you take time to add proper references?
And yes, I know that I've asked you to do it already and that you've added a reference. But the reference is for the ages of the members of SMAP:
[11]. It's simply their profile on the official site, how can this be used for anything but "Four SMAP members are over 40"? The sentence you added is still unsourced.
3. You said how bad the article was.. Yes, it is bad. But by adding more unreferenced sentences and more original research you are just making it worse.
4. In short, I don't see you wanting to do any work on the article. I was hoping that you do something useful and constructive, but instead you added more unreferenced stuff and "attacked" the definition yet again.
5. If you want more people to look at this discussion, I can suggest you to post a message at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. But if you remember, I've already posted there and the only person who came was
Nihonjoe.
5. The definition can be improved, yes. But we need more sources. More articles and books on the subject. Go and find them. You won't succeed in changing the definition like this, by force. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 00:50, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
I decided to start looking for some better sources after all, and it turned out the source needed to improve our definition has been right in front of our eyes this whole time. It's this book, and it's already listed in the references. It starts with a foreword from Aoyagi, who's been dealing with the topic for over a decade now and who even happens to have two of his books (old ones though) listed in our sources. In this foreword (from 2012), he says the following: "Idol performance has demonstrated new turns since I introduced its symbolic significance to the world, and changed in ways I would have never expected: instances are the growing popularity of Japanese pop idols alongside cutesy phenomena, manga and anime, as well as centers of “Cool Japan,” such as Shibuya and Akihabara, among European and American audiences in a form that may be called neo-Orientalism; the influx of Korean idols, such as BoA, Jinki, Kara, and Shōjo Jidai, into Japan’s pop idol scene; the transformation of idol imagery from cutesy to more sexy, classy, and/or hip personal configurations alongside emergent hybrid buzzwords, such as erokawa (sexy-cutesy), kirekawa (classy-cutesy), and kawakakoii (cutesy-trendy)". The last part justifies expanding the object of admiration in our definition from "usually cuteness" to "cuteness, sexiness, classiness and/or hipness".
The foreword is followed by an introduction from the editors in which they describe idols in the following way: "Such is the power of “idols,” a word used in Japan to refer to highly produced and promoted singers, models, and media personalities. Idols can be male or female, and tend to be young, or present themselves as such". "Highly produced" is preferable to "manufactured" because it's more neutral and more easily allows for the inclusion of self-produced net-idols. "Singers, models and media personalities" is preferable to "stars/starlets" because it's less open to (mis)interpretation and more easily allows for the inclusion of idols with little stardom. Finally, the attribute "young" is weakened. Idols aren't necessarily young, they only "tend to be young".
MugiMafin ( talk) 12:21, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
Another quote.
For major entertainment reporter Masaru Nashimoto, an idol must be young and have a frenzied following to the point of being a social phenomenon.
@ Nihonjoe:, @ Oshwah:, @ EdJohnston:, @ MugiMafin: Can we close the discussion about ages now at least? My opinion is as follows: "young" — ok, "manufactured" — ok (net celebrities don't count, they along with gravure idols, which is more or less simply another word for "model", and other "something idols" can be discussed in a separate section), "cute" — add that they are not only cute, but since 1990s also cool, hip, whatever. It should be understood from the definition that cuteness in the main or common characteristic, but that idols have become cooler or whatever. In short, the first two thirds of the definition stay as they are now, the part after comma (about cuteness) is expanded.
And I have an idea of a quick fix. (I'm just afraid that it is not usually done on Wikipedia.) We can create a section titled "Definition of the term idol" or something like this and put there five or so definitions or opinions about who idols are. Just choose from the ones that are already cited on this talk page. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 21:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
To stop the silly disruptive reverting, I have protected this page to prevent editing by anyone other than an admin. Please come to a consensus about the definition and whatever else you're discussing in the above TL;DR wall of text, and then ask for the change to be made using {{
edit protected}}
. Thank you. ···
日本穣 ·
投稿 ·
Talk to Nihonjoe ·
Join WP Japan! 21:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
The sections "History" and "Culture" have a pretty big overlap, which is why I'd like to merge them into one. The content of the "Modern idols" section is historical too, so that could go into the merger too. Same with "Net idols". The new merged section would have subsections though of course.
"Virtual idols" and "Photo idols" could go in one separate section like "Other types of idols". Actually, "Photo idols" can be removed completely since it's already covered by the link to the article "Gravure idol" in the "See also" section.
Any thoughts about or objections to any of this? MugiMafin ( talk) 11:32, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
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As a whole the article is well written, focused and unbiased. As noted in the article, sections of it need citation or examples for relevant information. Several of the citations were checked, but did not lead to the actual referenced portion of the source. Reference number 8 for example leads to an Amazon page for the referenced book, and the following references lead to the Google books page with the books in English, but the Google Books page being in Russian. None of the references checked had links to the permission to share the information as noted in the training. A few of the other references such as for the Asahi Shinbun were locked behind a paywall, and not able to be freely accessed. Overall the article citations need work.
The talk page for the article is mostly inactive though it does appear that there has been an effort to rewrite, and improve the article. Some of the references listed on the talk page, however are some of the same ones that have issues as mentioned above. There does seem to be disagreements between the writers, and editors of the article about correct wording, and sourcing for it.
The article is part of the groups as start class, high priority for Japan/Culture, and mid priority Women's History, and Sexuality Discussion of this topic seems mainly limited to what makes an idol, and idol, and who is actually an idol.
My question for the article is this, is there any current work or research being done on the article, and if so who is doing it? EdogawaConan2 ( talk) 00:30, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
The group Momoiro Clover Z is blatantly promoted ( WP:PROMOTION) on the article also raising WP:BALANCE issue. All other groups, as is practice in every music article, notability is established on commercial success and that means chart success and selling music records. That's why AKB48, Morning Musume and Babymetal are mentioned in the lead, although instead of Babymetal should be Arashi due to commercial success in the 2010s, however, in comparison to the most notable music act who are selling millions of records and getting certifications, MCZ according to Momoiro Clover Z discography most of the time their singles barely sell 50,000 copes while albums barely sell over 100,000 copies (lowest Gold certification by RIAJ). Their notability is claimed on the basis of journal surveys between 2013-2017 in which "has been ranked as the most popular female Japanese idol group", which again is not made by authoritative Oricon, in which notable poll of 20,000 for "Favorite Artist Ranking" they are not even featured in Top 50 and Top 20 acts for example between 2015-2017 ( [18], [19], [20]), while others are. Hence, placing them in the lead, and as the first image (!), is nothing else but an attempt to promote them on Wikipedia without any reliable WP:WEIGHT credibility. Hence I removed their mention from lead and edited other ( [21]).-- 78.2.109.23 ( talk) 12:17, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
Currently the photos represent the major idol projects / talent agencies. AKB48 is Yasushi Akimoto / AKS, Momoiro Clover Z is Stardust Promotion, Morning Musime is Hello! Project, Babymetal is Amuse, Fairies are Avex. I don't see any reason why this balance should be changed. I would gladly add a couple of photos of Japanese boy bands (Johnny's groups), but I don't know of any available on Wikipedia Commons. I suggest you work in this direction and find some new photographs instead of removing the photos that are already present. AKB48 isn't the only Japanese idol group worth a mention (a photo) here. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 12:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Korean idol which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:47, 21 December 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbm1058 ( talk • contribs)
@ Lullabying: I think you are doing a good job. so I won't interfere, but I'm concerned about you removing the selective list of active idols and some links to particular groups.
I've also noticed that while you removed all mention of particular Morning Musume's sister groups with a rather harsh and dismissive edit summary ( "Removed some WP:UNDUE weight on information about certain groups, since this article is supposed to be about idols in general") (and that was despite S/mileage being prominently mentioned in the CYZO article used as the source), you've added links to the articles you've worked on or created, such as " Koharu Kusumi", " Stabbing of Mayu Tomita", and "NGT48" (§ "December 2018 Maho Yamaguchi assault"). And again, you decided to mention the Mayu Tomita and Maho Yamaguchi incidents, but didn't mention the saw attack on AKB48 members that was the third attack mentioned in the source. -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 01:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I've noticed some problems with your version. You've removed everything about cuteness and just switched it for "image". While there are multiple sources that say that idols are supposed to to be cute. I was sure you just moved the bit about cuteness to the second paragraph or somewhere like that, but it's nowhere to be found at all. The word "cute" isn't used in the article at all now. Which is a nonsense. I suggest you add a second paragraph to detail which image idols are supposed to have exactly. "Cute", "attractive", maybe "cool", etc. You can explain how their image progressed and how nowadays female idols aren't all just "cute", that that was a requirement a while ago but now there are different idol groups that have different images / are marketed differently.
But I don't want to just revert you (I mean the first sentence) cause I see how you are working on the article and expanding it. So it will probably be a good idea for me to stay aside for now and see how this article develops.
P. S. I have other plans, so I'm now trying to avoid getting into a lengthy discussion. I guess the best solution for me will be to forget about this article now. For a couple of months or so. --
Moscow Connection (
talk) 07:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
I think once the original research concerns are addressed (which is basically information on how idols were viewed in each time period), it might be a good idea to nominate this as a good article. lullabying ( talk) 03:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
I thought I'd just note the following edit I made to the lead section. The word "manufactured" is problematic as it is the making of goods or wares for sale. You can say that you can manufacture an image, as this is an attribute of thing (including a person), but it is problematic when talking about actual entertainers as it implies that the entertainer is an object. Objectification is something we want to avoid on Wikipedia for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I have changed the sentence to say "selected, trained and marketed". I thought it best to explain my edit on the talk page so people understand my reasoning. - Aussie Article Writer ( talk) 03:52, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Why is this in the Anime and manga wikiproject Qwv ( talk) 10:39, 10 July 2023 (UTC)