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Having experienced Jane Elliott and the exercise myself, I have followed her pretty closely. The biggest problem with the various documented accounts is that nobody questions the facts as reported by Elliott herself. Here are a few examples in the current article:
I grant that many of these statements have associated references, but the references are all articles quoting Elliott. There is NO INDEPENDENT SOURCE for any of her claims and the article doesn't make clear that she is the source for all of these claims. I have added some qualifying language in the "Controversy surrounding the exercise" section, but one can only use the phrase "According to" so many times before it is ridiculous. Mick ( talk) 19:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
After giving this thought, I'm considering deleting all the parts that discuss her alleged mistreatment by her peers, neighbors and parents of the children. Are those really necessary to the article? Mick ( talk) 20:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
{{
Primary sources}}
template on the article. It's up to you. If someone doesn't think what you've done is a good idea, they'll revert it, or ask you about it, and you can explain your rationale. As long as it's good faith.
I take issue with the following quote in the article: Elliott says racism is not inherent, “You are not born a racist. You have to carefully be taught to be one.” When my class heard her speak at a conference recently, i'm almost positive that she said that if you're white, you're automatically a racist. Maybe the change was necessary for job security as the racial climate in the US has changed since the 1960s. Please check with her and edit her quote to more accurately reflect the truth of what she's said in the past, and what she now currently believes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.197.45.52 ( talk) 19:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Do you think those two assertions are mutually exclusive? She could be saying that all white people are taught to be racist. Mick ( talk) 19:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC) She was not saying that white people were taught to be racist, she was saying that by virtue of the fact they were white, they were racist. She castigated those who were white and said they were not racist. She called them stupid and said that because they were white, they were racists. The way she seemed to present it was that white people were not necessarily taught to be racist, but are racist essentially because of their DNA. Especially when she made a sweeping statement by saying that ALL white people are racist because they are white. That is why i said i took issue with her statement, "You are not born a racist. You have to carefully be taught to be one." And why i said that one should check with her and edit the article to reflect the truth of what she really believes. It should be edited to show what she used to believe and what she believes now. Also one could attend one of her conferences and decide for oneself.
Rynosoft is correct: she stated on one discussion show that given the subliminal conditioning white people experience from birth, it would be a miracle if they were not racist. She applies that fact to herself as much as to any other white person, and it is not intended to be an "accusation" - simply an observation. White people (of which I'm one) need to recognise their own racism before they can hope to challenge it. Multiculturalist ( talk) 01:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I was expecting her lecture to be more professional and intellectually informative. I expected her swearing to be just "schtick" and to end at some point to get to the point of her lecture: ie. latest research, follow up research results, etc. She never did. It seems that before she can conclusively state that ALL white people are racist, she should have some studies to back that up. Has she done ANY research on say, mixed relationships or children who are the product of a mixed relationship?? If a white person marries, and presumably loves, a person from a different racial heritage, how can that person be a racist?? How emotionally healthy are their children?? A child from such a relationship would presumable love his parents and not be racist. It seems that she has a perfect platform on which to get her phD in psycology on the subject after having already performed such a nationally recognized experiment. Such research would be interesting, even, or perhaps especially so, if it negated her original experiment. ( Erinsmomtoo ( talk) 00:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC))
This is copied word for word from [ [1]]. Its the first site on Google, after searching for 'Jane Elliot.' Unless the materials not copywrited, it should be rewritten. Kaiser matias 00:07 4 March 2005 (UTC)
I think it is. Says so at the bottom: 'The Enterprise Foundation © Copyright 2000. All Rights reserved.' Which fool copypasted a copyrighted article and submitted it to Wikipedia? -- 195.92.67.75 00:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It IS copypasted from that website, but with this bit of blatant opinion added in: "Elliott blames her ostracism on the alleged racists of Riceville but fails to acknowledge the role her own personality played. She is well-known to be highly opinionated on most controversial subjects, a trait that didn't endear her to the conservative population of Riceville. Many students also claim that Elliott was guilty of favoritism with certain students."
What kind of job is this? I think this is below the standards of Wikipedia.
CGally81 01:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am the one who inserted the "blatant opinion" paragraph. My intention is to provide a counter for the pro-Elliott aspect of the article. What is the acceptable method to do this?
---
The way to do it is to express it as an opinion belonging to someone else, rather than an outright fact.
For example, instead of saying "What Jane fails to realize is that her own personality played a role in....", you should say something like "Jane's personality however, may have played a role (or "is believed to have played a role") in...." or even "Some believe that Jane's personality also played a role in...."
Attributing that belief to a group of people may help as well. If a particular group of people stated that they felt Jane's personality resulted in her persecution, then you can credit that group with saying so.
Understand what I mean?
Wikipedia is about expressing facts (if proven) as facts, opinion as opinion, and things believed to be facts by some but not others, as just that - i.e. state that some believe this, some believe that, etc.
CGally81 02:48, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There isn't one. Your opinions and beliefs are completely irrelevant. -- Jibal ( talk) 23:58, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I actually know a bit about the subject, so I did the work and wrote the beginnings of a real article. Also removed copyrighted material, of course....it's not supposed to be here.
I didn't see the terribly opinionated paragraph mentioned above, but now the article doesn't even go into the community reaction, so there's nothing for the opinionated paragraph to butt heads with, so to speak. Removed, if it was in there (but I think it had already been nixed.)
(We would need to have some more solid sources for this than just the Brigitta Kral piece, in order to prevent just such back-and-forth controversy: the piece omits half the experimental method, which makes it seem like it's only casually researched.) Alan Canon 03:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone added a new paragraph about the negative reaction of the town. The "facts" in this paragraph are only claims by Elliott herself. What is an acceptable way to counter-balance this paragraph?
- I think you handled it very appropriately. -- CGally81 02:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
The link for the attributed quoted text is now dead. Should the quote be removed? Also, the Smithsonian link goes to their front page. Mick 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This should be clarified. Irrevenant 10:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
When was she born?
their is no reason of being bitter after all that was just an experiment she did a wonderful job
... While I don't deny that whites are also on the recieving end of racism, I think the poster who saw Indecently Exposed didn't quite get the point.
Elliott was purposefully taking on the persona of a "racist fuckwit" as you chose to title it to highlight how certain behaviours from one person or group can bring out negative behaviours in another group, and reinforce false perceptions of laziness, stupidity, etc. (This is also done in the Ble Eye/Brown Eye experiment.) 220.244.212.62 10:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No, in Indecently Exposed, Elliott was purposefully taking on the persona of an eye-colorist, dividing the participants by eye colour and brow-beating some of them, but she also interjected her interpretation of the exercise, brow-beating the whites indiscriminately (ironically...) for their attitude towards others. It is for this interpretation, not for her persona, that I say she was the most racist fuckwit in the room.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I think that you could come up with a more appropriate term than "racist fuckwit" but will use the term here since you both agree on what it means. I think there should be more information concerning her earlier experiments with blue eyed and brown eyed school children (it was a two day exercise) than with her training of adults. Strange how kids acted differently and performed better academically on the day that they were "superior" - and this should be focused on more in the wikipedia entry than the later adult stuff.
I also think that one should settle this by going into her reasons for acting like a "racist fuckwit" (which was Jane Elliott's intention) and how successful she was in using this persona to get her point across and whether she was equally successful as a school teacher as she was later in her work with adults. Look at it this way, Stephen Colbert acts like a right wing "fuckwit" to show the stupidity of the right wing point of view - but no one considers those strange things he says his own views. The problem I see here is not so much Jane Elliott's intention but whether she was successful in distinguishing between the intentionally racist persona and her true views.
There is one point where she baits a person into saying something racist which sounds more like her putting words in the person's mouth than the person's true views (distorting another's view or potentially doing so is a point that can be made legitimately). It is both racist to see all members of the group the same and to deny a person their group identity in Jane Elliott's opinion. However, the person does get roped slightly unfairly into inferring the latter by trying not to infer the former. Jane Elliott made it sound as if the person had said that soccor players shouldn't wear hijabs, and RCMP officers should not wear braids or turbans - which one could question. I think when the person said that they were the same as us, the person didn't mean what she made it sound like he said. You can look up Baltej Singh Dhillon either on wikipedia or the cbc to get some background on the issue for the discussion.
I didn't see any verification of the story that this experiment was tried on Oprah via the first page of Google results for "Oprah eye color". Does someone have a reference for this?
Here is a link from Oprah.com that discusses that particular episode in detail: http://www.oprah.com/tows/vintage/past/vintage_past_20010720_b.jhtml Duboisist ( talk) 13:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
A two-part screening of her exercise - as shown on the Oprah show - was broadcast here in the United Kingdom in 1992. Speaking as a British anti racist, I found Jane's logic - and the way she articulated her arguments - as being the most profound and compelling I have ever heard. A truly brave (though sadly very misunderstood) woman, but to get back to the point, yes her blue eyed/brown eye exercise certainly has been demonstrated on Oprah. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This section should be removed because it doesn't represent a controversy. There is no evidence offered that the exercise in question violates the ethical standards of any recognized organization that does human research studies. Moreover, this section seem to represent the opinion of just two people who no evidence has been offered that either have any particular expertise in the ethics of human research. Furthermore this makes makes the entire article self-contradictory because the exact same thing can be said about the Stanford experiment mentioned below.-- Duboisist ( talk) 14:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
She said it! What a racist!
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We need to define the term and let the readers decide whether it is racist or not.
Ok, if you want to make the point that not only white people are racist you can point to David Ahenakew's Wikipedia entry. However, I think she was addressing Saskatchewan after the death of Neil Stonechild (who has his own inaccurate wikipedia entry - I'm white and figure that the cops were responsible for his death). Neil Stonechild died because he was taken on a Starlight Tour - a common practice at the time.
On the other hand, Jane Elliott's statement of a "white attitudinal problem" is not limited to a belief that white people can be racist (we can to varying degrees), but, more importantly, it incorporates the tendency we have to underestimate the impact of how being a victim of multiple acts of racism influences a person's self esteem and behaviour over time - or even one's trust in government agencies.
Expecting a person not to be impacted by a lifetime of exposure to racism, is like expecting a child rape victim to "just get over it" - in both cases, one has to heal and learn to trust. And we can all learn to be a bit more trust worthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.37.48 ( talk) 21:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Not only are the test rigged but also "their" believes that they are raceist, wether they are or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.196.158 ( talk) 07:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Why is it racist to say "racism is a white attitudinal problem"? We are all taught from an early age that black people have an "attitudinal problem". By turning the tables, and using the same rhetoric on white people, all Jane is attempting to do is to let you see what it feels like to be unfairly lebelled because of your appearance. Not very nice, is it? Unfortunately, you have proved her point, because you certainly do have an attitude problem. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Learn the diffrence between claiming someone believes in something and conferming that someone believes in something, just because you are a member of a collective, dosn't mean that you won't be aware that you might be sterotyped (Black or White/Male or Female). I have not proven your point, however you have, that she believes that only whites are racist and all whites are racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.67.153 ( talk) 10:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
-- This is not a blog. None of these comments belong here. -- Jibal ( talk) 00:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Yet it's repeatedly referred to as an experiment in this article. Personally, I don't care either way. Seems like she didn't intend it to be one, but many have observed the results as if it were (and I'd say there's plenty of value in doing so).
But this is an encyclopedia. And it's either an experiment, or it's not. Let's make a decision, and adjust the article accordingly, ok? Whatcha think? :-/ -- MyrddinEmrys ( talk) 12:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the article, putting in a lot more detail. Not sure if the quote I used could be cited better. Only one of the sources I take quotes from has page numbers. What I have read about citations just asks that quotes have a citation immediately after. But I kind of did it two ways... for one or two quotes I cite a source twice so that I could include the page number for the quote (instead of the more general citation I use for information)... in other places, I put the page number in the text... Which is more appropriate? Thelmadatter ( talk) 18:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I very rarely get involved with editing and discussion on Wikipedia, but I'm really taken aback by the bias against the subject of this article. It's one thing to present criticism of an issue, but this is complete (and intentional) overkill. This article is supposed to be a biography. Instead, it is a propaganda piece that insists that acknowledging white privilege is somehow tantamount to racism against white people. Ironically, this claim demonstrates that racism against non-white people is alive and well today. There is an excessive number of quotations from openly biased sources (including a conservative think tank). Other quotes and facts are misleadingly presented out of context. Let's confine the ridiculous claims and smear campaigns to the articles on presidential candidates, ok? If Jane Elliott is truly racist against white people, then there must be better testimony out there than the sources currently cited in this article. Bluemonkee ( talk) 07:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
“I treated them as we treat Hispanics, Chicanos, Latinos, Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, women, people with disabilities, gays and lesbians.”
that seems to be a bit of a rewrite by herself in her interview - race was the issue she had started with and i would think disabilities/gays/lesbians are something that she tacked on later in her life. it is just a good hunch that her social progression hadn't progressed that far - if she was in an all-white christian school, that wouldn't fly. i know that bringing up gays and lesbians at a church in 2008 is quite often like setting the church on fire. that bit should talk about what she did at the time, not where she has gotten to now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.146.23.130 ( talk) 16:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
"The following Monday, Elliott reversed the exercise, making the blue-eyed children superior."
This information is completely wrong, where did people get this from? Seems as though it has been completely pulled out of their necks.
Watch the documentary on it here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
You will see that on TUESDAY, the teacher proposed that BLUE EYED PEOPLE were superior, and on WEDNESDAY, she proposed that BROWN EYED PEOPLE were superior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.54.236.31 ( talk) 12:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Having experienced Jane Elliott and the exercise myself, I have followed her pretty closely. The biggest problem with the various accounts is that nobody questions the facts as reported by Elliott herself. Here are a few examples in the current article:
I grant that many of these statements have associated references, but the references are all articles quoting Elliott. There is NO INDEPENDENT SOURCE for any of her claims and the article doesn't make clear that she is the source for all of these claims.
Mick ( talk) 23:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Well they do not seem to be terribly pro-Elliott things anyway, so what's your point? Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that they are not facts, they are allegations that Elliott herself has made. All of the "substantiating" articles only quote her - nobody else has ever confirmed. Mick ( talk) 23:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Jane Elliott (born 1933, Riceville, Iowa) is an American teacher and she is a racist
This is what pops up when you google Jane Elliot.Shouldn't it read anti-racist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blakmamba ( talk • contribs) 23:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, it's probably deliberate rather than an accidental typo. Some people don't like Jane Elliott because she is very effective at challenging their racism - and if a person can successfully challenge someone's racism then they have challenged their power. No one gives up power without a fight. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I wrote to this vapid human being, since she's obviously never lived in an area that wasn't predominantly white, to inform her that whites can also experience daily racism. I wrote of my own experience in Miami, and how heavy the racism is towards non-latinos, including whites. Her response was that she forwarded my email to several newspapers in Miami, saying "perhaps you can find a few others who feel the same". I guess actual experience is meaningless to her. I don't see why this non-expert random grade-school 'teacher' is even worthy of having a wiki page in the first place.
108.83.177.138 (
talk)
22:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)RL
This article needs to be rewritten to remove the horrible bias and needs to include more references.-- FUNKAMATIC ~talk 21:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I had to hand-revert mass-vandalism on the article, but Wikipedia's spam filter croaked on the examiner.com link, so I had to remove it. Arekku ( talk) 00:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The contributions of this user on 25 January 2011 look very much like what Elliott herself might write. If I am incorrect in this conclusion, I apologize in advance.
If so, please read Wikipedia's editing policy, specifically the policy regarding autobiography. The policy does not explicitly forbid people from editing articles about themselves but it is an obvious conflict of interest. If there are additions and/or changes to the article that you feel must be made, please suggest them on this talk page. Mick ( talk) 19:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it valid to use a Google cache link as a source? The article itself also cites Bloom for many, if not all, of it's "facts" about Elliott and the exercise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rynosoft ( talk • contribs) 19:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The Horowitz/NLPC cache link is now dead so I'm removing it and replacing it with "citation needed" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rynosoft ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree that a better citation is needed. However, please "do not delete a URL solely because the URL does not work any longer." See WP:LINKROT. Thank you. -- DavidCary ( talk) 12:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
"One scene she says that she remembers vividly is that of a (white) reporter, with the microphone pointed toward a local black leader asking “When our leader (John F. Kennedy) was killed several years ago, his widow held us together. Who's going to control your people?” "
As a journalist I want to see the attribution of this supposed incident. I want to know who said it, for what news program, aired where and on what day. And I want impartial ears to tell me whether or to what extent the reporter inflected his comments in the manner described. Has no one asked whether it is true? or accurate? I am surprised. That particular incident is the crux of the entire matter, according to Elliott, the incident that caused her to create and undertake the experiment, so its accuracy and authenticity should be beyond reproach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.32.129 ( talk) 18:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Given what I know about Jane, she likely changed the quote to be as objectionable as possible
Mick (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
22:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC).
If you find her memory of the event is not perfect, what does that say? As a journalist, are you concerned that a journalist then might have said such a thing? htom ( talk) 18:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
This is not an issue. That is what **she** remembered, and some discrepancies given the time that passed is not such and issue as to dig into TV archives for the footage. How often do people say similar things on documentaries and they aren't fact-checked? You'd only suggest it when there's some rooted problem in that person's credibility or when the quote is essential to that person's story (eg an alibi); both are not an issue here. François Robere ( talk) 15:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Maybe this can be useful if we want to discuss similar experiments? Jeff5102 ( talk) 09:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Elliot's findings are born out in the Stanford Experiment. Whether it's Blue eyed/Brown eyed or Prisoner/Guard, the same situation of power over others was set up in both cases, and both had similar outcomes. I don't see a problem with what she did and what they did at Stanford. We need to know this about ourselves esp. here in the U.S. where we MUST live up to the credo, "All Men Are Created Equal". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.197 ( talk) 08:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I put up a puffery tag ( seen here). Jane023 removed it, added some more puffery, and asked me to Talk about my feelings (also seen there).
Aside from what I said in the edit summary, I feel the tag was misunderstood. I didn't mean to imply Elliot is puffing the article, just that the article is puffed. Too much "popularity", "recognition", "controversy", "her website", that sort of thing.
I feel "and has consistently defended her views" is a non sequitor, unless that Jane's saying she's this Jane (or represents her) and she's looking to edit war. I may be misunderstanding myself.
Most importantly, I don't really feel strongly about this. I came here via Random Article. Someone dedicated will tune me in an edit war, so I surrender. But with my last gasp, I'll say Blue eyes, brown eyes (or however it's punctuated) deserves an article with a Jane Elliott section. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
The statement in question in the "Origin of workplace diversity training" section:
On the negative side, it was claimed{{By whom|date=January 2016}} that not doing such diversity training could make these same companies open to bad publicity, boycotts, and lawsuits.<ref name="NPLC">[http://nlpc.org/sites/default/files/CorDiv_SR_0.pdf NLPC Special Report The Authoritarian Roots of Corporate Diversity Training] by the [[National Legal and Policy Center]] by Dr. Carl F. Horowitz</ref>{{Verify credibility|date=January 2016}}
First of all, who is claiming this? And who beyond the right-wing NPLC is claiming it or backing up the statement? Where are any additional reliable sources for this? This statement isn't encyclopedic as long as it remains so weaselly and POV. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 13:36, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Spent some time going through the sources and comparing to the article and there are things claimed in the article that aren't in the sources. Pulled in some Frontline URL's and sources and finally found where some of this seemingly misattributed information is coming from. Although, still, some of the statements in the article are not in that source and I put citation needed tag on one so far.
A great deal of the entire article is based on Lesson of a Lifetime By Stephen G. Bloom SMITHSONIAN MAGAZINE SEPTEMBER 2005 and it doesn't contain much of what is in the article. I found the full 29 page, unpublished article, by Stephen Bloom at Wordpress. Now, since it's unpublished on Wordpress, does it still meet the WP:BLP reliable source criteria? 97.85.173.38 ( talk) 06:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.
2) it does not involve claims about third parties;
3) it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
Anything with current source [4] - Bloom, Stephen G (September 2005). "Lesson of a Lifetime" . Smithsonian Magazine. Retrieved 2010-07-18. needs to be verified. I hit the first 5 links last night. 97.85.173.38 ( talk) 21:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I've been hunting around for a reliable source for Elliott's birthdate, and all I can find is one for the year, 1933. For now, since the May 27, 1933 is longstanding, I won't remove it. But if anyone can find a reliable source for it, that would be much appreciated. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 23:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
In poking around on the subject of Jane Elliott's birthdate, I have discovered some things.
So, since she has a verified account on Facebook, I sent her a message asking her to help confirm either that "November 30, 1933" is her birthdate or that the current birthdate "May 27, 1933" is incorrect... whichever she is more comfortable doing. Ordinarily, a biographical subject can be relied on to tell us their own birthdate. If she confirms the latter, we should change the birthdate back to 1933. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I know Jane personally and her bday is indeed 11/30/1933 LaShonda Corder ( talk) 12:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Substantial text in this article is dedicated to the main visible work from the subject. Namely the "blue eyes brown eyes experiment". That content is scattered throughout the article. I propose a new article for the experiment with substantial portion of this article relocated there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lpa2a ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
"White Fragility" was supposedly coined by her in the early 2010s. However, I have found evidence in an article written in the September 2005 Smithsonian article about the Riceville, Iowa 3rd grade experiment by renowned teacher Jane Elliot that proves otherwise. And I quote, pp. 86, 4th paragraph "Elliot replied "Why are we so worried about the fragile egos of white children who experience a couple of hours of made up racism one day when blacks experience real racism every day of their lives?"" Gizziiusa ( talk) 06:44, 14 April 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa
Her parents are listed on FindAGrave.com. You can follow her family line back, her direct ancestor Robert Jennison came from England in the 17th century. She is an Anglo of New England stock, not an "Irish American." JustAChurchMouse ( talk) 20:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Having experienced Jane Elliott and the exercise myself, I have followed her pretty closely. The biggest problem with the various documented accounts is that nobody questions the facts as reported by Elliott herself. Here are a few examples in the current article:
I grant that many of these statements have associated references, but the references are all articles quoting Elliott. There is NO INDEPENDENT SOURCE for any of her claims and the article doesn't make clear that she is the source for all of these claims. I have added some qualifying language in the "Controversy surrounding the exercise" section, but one can only use the phrase "According to" so many times before it is ridiculous. Mick ( talk) 19:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
After giving this thought, I'm considering deleting all the parts that discuss her alleged mistreatment by her peers, neighbors and parents of the children. Are those really necessary to the article? Mick ( talk) 20:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
{{
Primary sources}}
template on the article. It's up to you. If someone doesn't think what you've done is a good idea, they'll revert it, or ask you about it, and you can explain your rationale. As long as it's good faith.
I take issue with the following quote in the article: Elliott says racism is not inherent, “You are not born a racist. You have to carefully be taught to be one.” When my class heard her speak at a conference recently, i'm almost positive that she said that if you're white, you're automatically a racist. Maybe the change was necessary for job security as the racial climate in the US has changed since the 1960s. Please check with her and edit her quote to more accurately reflect the truth of what she's said in the past, and what she now currently believes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.197.45.52 ( talk) 19:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Do you think those two assertions are mutually exclusive? She could be saying that all white people are taught to be racist. Mick ( talk) 19:50, 14 February 2011 (UTC) She was not saying that white people were taught to be racist, she was saying that by virtue of the fact they were white, they were racist. She castigated those who were white and said they were not racist. She called them stupid and said that because they were white, they were racists. The way she seemed to present it was that white people were not necessarily taught to be racist, but are racist essentially because of their DNA. Especially when she made a sweeping statement by saying that ALL white people are racist because they are white. That is why i said i took issue with her statement, "You are not born a racist. You have to carefully be taught to be one." And why i said that one should check with her and edit the article to reflect the truth of what she really believes. It should be edited to show what she used to believe and what she believes now. Also one could attend one of her conferences and decide for oneself.
Rynosoft is correct: she stated on one discussion show that given the subliminal conditioning white people experience from birth, it would be a miracle if they were not racist. She applies that fact to herself as much as to any other white person, and it is not intended to be an "accusation" - simply an observation. White people (of which I'm one) need to recognise their own racism before they can hope to challenge it. Multiculturalist ( talk) 01:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I was expecting her lecture to be more professional and intellectually informative. I expected her swearing to be just "schtick" and to end at some point to get to the point of her lecture: ie. latest research, follow up research results, etc. She never did. It seems that before she can conclusively state that ALL white people are racist, she should have some studies to back that up. Has she done ANY research on say, mixed relationships or children who are the product of a mixed relationship?? If a white person marries, and presumably loves, a person from a different racial heritage, how can that person be a racist?? How emotionally healthy are their children?? A child from such a relationship would presumable love his parents and not be racist. It seems that she has a perfect platform on which to get her phD in psycology on the subject after having already performed such a nationally recognized experiment. Such research would be interesting, even, or perhaps especially so, if it negated her original experiment. ( Erinsmomtoo ( talk) 00:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC))
This is copied word for word from [ [1]]. Its the first site on Google, after searching for 'Jane Elliot.' Unless the materials not copywrited, it should be rewritten. Kaiser matias 00:07 4 March 2005 (UTC)
I think it is. Says so at the bottom: 'The Enterprise Foundation © Copyright 2000. All Rights reserved.' Which fool copypasted a copyrighted article and submitted it to Wikipedia? -- 195.92.67.75 00:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It IS copypasted from that website, but with this bit of blatant opinion added in: "Elliott blames her ostracism on the alleged racists of Riceville but fails to acknowledge the role her own personality played. She is well-known to be highly opinionated on most controversial subjects, a trait that didn't endear her to the conservative population of Riceville. Many students also claim that Elliott was guilty of favoritism with certain students."
What kind of job is this? I think this is below the standards of Wikipedia.
CGally81 01:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am the one who inserted the "blatant opinion" paragraph. My intention is to provide a counter for the pro-Elliott aspect of the article. What is the acceptable method to do this?
---
The way to do it is to express it as an opinion belonging to someone else, rather than an outright fact.
For example, instead of saying "What Jane fails to realize is that her own personality played a role in....", you should say something like "Jane's personality however, may have played a role (or "is believed to have played a role") in...." or even "Some believe that Jane's personality also played a role in...."
Attributing that belief to a group of people may help as well. If a particular group of people stated that they felt Jane's personality resulted in her persecution, then you can credit that group with saying so.
Understand what I mean?
Wikipedia is about expressing facts (if proven) as facts, opinion as opinion, and things believed to be facts by some but not others, as just that - i.e. state that some believe this, some believe that, etc.
CGally81 02:48, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There isn't one. Your opinions and beliefs are completely irrelevant. -- Jibal ( talk) 23:58, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
I actually know a bit about the subject, so I did the work and wrote the beginnings of a real article. Also removed copyrighted material, of course....it's not supposed to be here.
I didn't see the terribly opinionated paragraph mentioned above, but now the article doesn't even go into the community reaction, so there's nothing for the opinionated paragraph to butt heads with, so to speak. Removed, if it was in there (but I think it had already been nixed.)
(We would need to have some more solid sources for this than just the Brigitta Kral piece, in order to prevent just such back-and-forth controversy: the piece omits half the experimental method, which makes it seem like it's only casually researched.) Alan Canon 03:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone added a new paragraph about the negative reaction of the town. The "facts" in this paragraph are only claims by Elliott herself. What is an acceptable way to counter-balance this paragraph?
- I think you handled it very appropriately. -- CGally81 02:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
The link for the attributed quoted text is now dead. Should the quote be removed? Also, the Smithsonian link goes to their front page. Mick 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
This should be clarified. Irrevenant 10:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
When was she born?
their is no reason of being bitter after all that was just an experiment she did a wonderful job
... While I don't deny that whites are also on the recieving end of racism, I think the poster who saw Indecently Exposed didn't quite get the point.
Elliott was purposefully taking on the persona of a "racist fuckwit" as you chose to title it to highlight how certain behaviours from one person or group can bring out negative behaviours in another group, and reinforce false perceptions of laziness, stupidity, etc. (This is also done in the Ble Eye/Brown Eye experiment.) 220.244.212.62 10:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No, in Indecently Exposed, Elliott was purposefully taking on the persona of an eye-colorist, dividing the participants by eye colour and brow-beating some of them, but she also interjected her interpretation of the exercise, brow-beating the whites indiscriminately (ironically...) for their attitude towards others. It is for this interpretation, not for her persona, that I say she was the most racist fuckwit in the room.
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I think that you could come up with a more appropriate term than "racist fuckwit" but will use the term here since you both agree on what it means. I think there should be more information concerning her earlier experiments with blue eyed and brown eyed school children (it was a two day exercise) than with her training of adults. Strange how kids acted differently and performed better academically on the day that they were "superior" - and this should be focused on more in the wikipedia entry than the later adult stuff.
I also think that one should settle this by going into her reasons for acting like a "racist fuckwit" (which was Jane Elliott's intention) and how successful she was in using this persona to get her point across and whether she was equally successful as a school teacher as she was later in her work with adults. Look at it this way, Stephen Colbert acts like a right wing "fuckwit" to show the stupidity of the right wing point of view - but no one considers those strange things he says his own views. The problem I see here is not so much Jane Elliott's intention but whether she was successful in distinguishing between the intentionally racist persona and her true views.
There is one point where she baits a person into saying something racist which sounds more like her putting words in the person's mouth than the person's true views (distorting another's view or potentially doing so is a point that can be made legitimately). It is both racist to see all members of the group the same and to deny a person their group identity in Jane Elliott's opinion. However, the person does get roped slightly unfairly into inferring the latter by trying not to infer the former. Jane Elliott made it sound as if the person had said that soccor players shouldn't wear hijabs, and RCMP officers should not wear braids or turbans - which one could question. I think when the person said that they were the same as us, the person didn't mean what she made it sound like he said. You can look up Baltej Singh Dhillon either on wikipedia or the cbc to get some background on the issue for the discussion.
I didn't see any verification of the story that this experiment was tried on Oprah via the first page of Google results for "Oprah eye color". Does someone have a reference for this?
Here is a link from Oprah.com that discusses that particular episode in detail: http://www.oprah.com/tows/vintage/past/vintage_past_20010720_b.jhtml Duboisist ( talk) 13:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
A two-part screening of her exercise - as shown on the Oprah show - was broadcast here in the United Kingdom in 1992. Speaking as a British anti racist, I found Jane's logic - and the way she articulated her arguments - as being the most profound and compelling I have ever heard. A truly brave (though sadly very misunderstood) woman, but to get back to the point, yes her blue eyed/brown eye exercise certainly has been demonstrated on Oprah. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This section should be removed because it doesn't represent a controversy. There is no evidence offered that the exercise in question violates the ethical standards of any recognized organization that does human research studies. Moreover, this section seem to represent the opinion of just two people who no evidence has been offered that either have any particular expertise in the ethics of human research. Furthermore this makes makes the entire article self-contradictory because the exact same thing can be said about the Stanford experiment mentioned below.-- Duboisist ( talk) 14:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
She said it! What a racist!
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We need to define the term and let the readers decide whether it is racist or not.
Ok, if you want to make the point that not only white people are racist you can point to David Ahenakew's Wikipedia entry. However, I think she was addressing Saskatchewan after the death of Neil Stonechild (who has his own inaccurate wikipedia entry - I'm white and figure that the cops were responsible for his death). Neil Stonechild died because he was taken on a Starlight Tour - a common practice at the time.
On the other hand, Jane Elliott's statement of a "white attitudinal problem" is not limited to a belief that white people can be racist (we can to varying degrees), but, more importantly, it incorporates the tendency we have to underestimate the impact of how being a victim of multiple acts of racism influences a person's self esteem and behaviour over time - or even one's trust in government agencies.
Expecting a person not to be impacted by a lifetime of exposure to racism, is like expecting a child rape victim to "just get over it" - in both cases, one has to heal and learn to trust. And we can all learn to be a bit more trust worthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.37.48 ( talk) 21:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Not only are the test rigged but also "their" believes that they are raceist, wether they are or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.196.158 ( talk) 07:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Why is it racist to say "racism is a white attitudinal problem"? We are all taught from an early age that black people have an "attitudinal problem". By turning the tables, and using the same rhetoric on white people, all Jane is attempting to do is to let you see what it feels like to be unfairly lebelled because of your appearance. Not very nice, is it? Unfortunately, you have proved her point, because you certainly do have an attitude problem. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Learn the diffrence between claiming someone believes in something and conferming that someone believes in something, just because you are a member of a collective, dosn't mean that you won't be aware that you might be sterotyped (Black or White/Male or Female). I have not proven your point, however you have, that she believes that only whites are racist and all whites are racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.67.153 ( talk) 10:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
-- This is not a blog. None of these comments belong here. -- Jibal ( talk) 00:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Yet it's repeatedly referred to as an experiment in this article. Personally, I don't care either way. Seems like she didn't intend it to be one, but many have observed the results as if it were (and I'd say there's plenty of value in doing so).
But this is an encyclopedia. And it's either an experiment, or it's not. Let's make a decision, and adjust the article accordingly, ok? Whatcha think? :-/ -- MyrddinEmrys ( talk) 12:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I rewrote the article, putting in a lot more detail. Not sure if the quote I used could be cited better. Only one of the sources I take quotes from has page numbers. What I have read about citations just asks that quotes have a citation immediately after. But I kind of did it two ways... for one or two quotes I cite a source twice so that I could include the page number for the quote (instead of the more general citation I use for information)... in other places, I put the page number in the text... Which is more appropriate? Thelmadatter ( talk) 18:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I very rarely get involved with editing and discussion on Wikipedia, but I'm really taken aback by the bias against the subject of this article. It's one thing to present criticism of an issue, but this is complete (and intentional) overkill. This article is supposed to be a biography. Instead, it is a propaganda piece that insists that acknowledging white privilege is somehow tantamount to racism against white people. Ironically, this claim demonstrates that racism against non-white people is alive and well today. There is an excessive number of quotations from openly biased sources (including a conservative think tank). Other quotes and facts are misleadingly presented out of context. Let's confine the ridiculous claims and smear campaigns to the articles on presidential candidates, ok? If Jane Elliott is truly racist against white people, then there must be better testimony out there than the sources currently cited in this article. Bluemonkee ( talk) 07:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
“I treated them as we treat Hispanics, Chicanos, Latinos, Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, women, people with disabilities, gays and lesbians.”
that seems to be a bit of a rewrite by herself in her interview - race was the issue she had started with and i would think disabilities/gays/lesbians are something that she tacked on later in her life. it is just a good hunch that her social progression hadn't progressed that far - if she was in an all-white christian school, that wouldn't fly. i know that bringing up gays and lesbians at a church in 2008 is quite often like setting the church on fire. that bit should talk about what she did at the time, not where she has gotten to now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.146.23.130 ( talk) 16:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
"The following Monday, Elliott reversed the exercise, making the blue-eyed children superior."
This information is completely wrong, where did people get this from? Seems as though it has been completely pulled out of their necks.
Watch the documentary on it here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
You will see that on TUESDAY, the teacher proposed that BLUE EYED PEOPLE were superior, and on WEDNESDAY, she proposed that BROWN EYED PEOPLE were superior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.54.236.31 ( talk) 12:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Having experienced Jane Elliott and the exercise myself, I have followed her pretty closely. The biggest problem with the various accounts is that nobody questions the facts as reported by Elliott herself. Here are a few examples in the current article:
I grant that many of these statements have associated references, but the references are all articles quoting Elliott. There is NO INDEPENDENT SOURCE for any of her claims and the article doesn't make clear that she is the source for all of these claims.
Mick ( talk) 23:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Well they do not seem to be terribly pro-Elliott things anyway, so what's your point? Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that they are not facts, they are allegations that Elliott herself has made. All of the "substantiating" articles only quote her - nobody else has ever confirmed. Mick ( talk) 23:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Jane Elliott (born 1933, Riceville, Iowa) is an American teacher and she is a racist
This is what pops up when you google Jane Elliot.Shouldn't it read anti-racist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blakmamba ( talk • contribs) 23:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sadly, it's probably deliberate rather than an accidental typo. Some people don't like Jane Elliott because she is very effective at challenging their racism - and if a person can successfully challenge someone's racism then they have challenged their power. No one gives up power without a fight. Multiculturalist ( talk) 17:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I wrote to this vapid human being, since she's obviously never lived in an area that wasn't predominantly white, to inform her that whites can also experience daily racism. I wrote of my own experience in Miami, and how heavy the racism is towards non-latinos, including whites. Her response was that she forwarded my email to several newspapers in Miami, saying "perhaps you can find a few others who feel the same". I guess actual experience is meaningless to her. I don't see why this non-expert random grade-school 'teacher' is even worthy of having a wiki page in the first place.
108.83.177.138 (
talk)
22:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)RL
This article needs to be rewritten to remove the horrible bias and needs to include more references.-- FUNKAMATIC ~talk 21:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
I had to hand-revert mass-vandalism on the article, but Wikipedia's spam filter croaked on the examiner.com link, so I had to remove it. Arekku ( talk) 00:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The contributions of this user on 25 January 2011 look very much like what Elliott herself might write. If I am incorrect in this conclusion, I apologize in advance.
If so, please read Wikipedia's editing policy, specifically the policy regarding autobiography. The policy does not explicitly forbid people from editing articles about themselves but it is an obvious conflict of interest. If there are additions and/or changes to the article that you feel must be made, please suggest them on this talk page. Mick ( talk) 19:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it valid to use a Google cache link as a source? The article itself also cites Bloom for many, if not all, of it's "facts" about Elliott and the exercise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rynosoft ( talk • contribs) 19:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The Horowitz/NLPC cache link is now dead so I'm removing it and replacing it with "citation needed" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rynosoft ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree that a better citation is needed. However, please "do not delete a URL solely because the URL does not work any longer." See WP:LINKROT. Thank you. -- DavidCary ( talk) 12:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
"One scene she says that she remembers vividly is that of a (white) reporter, with the microphone pointed toward a local black leader asking “When our leader (John F. Kennedy) was killed several years ago, his widow held us together. Who's going to control your people?” "
As a journalist I want to see the attribution of this supposed incident. I want to know who said it, for what news program, aired where and on what day. And I want impartial ears to tell me whether or to what extent the reporter inflected his comments in the manner described. Has no one asked whether it is true? or accurate? I am surprised. That particular incident is the crux of the entire matter, according to Elliott, the incident that caused her to create and undertake the experiment, so its accuracy and authenticity should be beyond reproach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.32.129 ( talk) 18:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Given what I know about Jane, she likely changed the quote to be as objectionable as possible
Mick (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
22:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC).
If you find her memory of the event is not perfect, what does that say? As a journalist, are you concerned that a journalist then might have said such a thing? htom ( talk) 18:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
This is not an issue. That is what **she** remembered, and some discrepancies given the time that passed is not such and issue as to dig into TV archives for the footage. How often do people say similar things on documentaries and they aren't fact-checked? You'd only suggest it when there's some rooted problem in that person's credibility or when the quote is essential to that person's story (eg an alibi); both are not an issue here. François Robere ( talk) 15:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Maybe this can be useful if we want to discuss similar experiments? Jeff5102 ( talk) 09:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Elliot's findings are born out in the Stanford Experiment. Whether it's Blue eyed/Brown eyed or Prisoner/Guard, the same situation of power over others was set up in both cases, and both had similar outcomes. I don't see a problem with what she did and what they did at Stanford. We need to know this about ourselves esp. here in the U.S. where we MUST live up to the credo, "All Men Are Created Equal". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.197 ( talk) 08:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I put up a puffery tag ( seen here). Jane023 removed it, added some more puffery, and asked me to Talk about my feelings (also seen there).
Aside from what I said in the edit summary, I feel the tag was misunderstood. I didn't mean to imply Elliot is puffing the article, just that the article is puffed. Too much "popularity", "recognition", "controversy", "her website", that sort of thing.
I feel "and has consistently defended her views" is a non sequitor, unless that Jane's saying she's this Jane (or represents her) and she's looking to edit war. I may be misunderstanding myself.
Most importantly, I don't really feel strongly about this. I came here via Random Article. Someone dedicated will tune me in an edit war, so I surrender. But with my last gasp, I'll say Blue eyes, brown eyes (or however it's punctuated) deserves an article with a Jane Elliott section. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:38, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
The statement in question in the "Origin of workplace diversity training" section:
On the negative side, it was claimed{{By whom|date=January 2016}} that not doing such diversity training could make these same companies open to bad publicity, boycotts, and lawsuits.<ref name="NPLC">[http://nlpc.org/sites/default/files/CorDiv_SR_0.pdf NLPC Special Report The Authoritarian Roots of Corporate Diversity Training] by the [[National Legal and Policy Center]] by Dr. Carl F. Horowitz</ref>{{Verify credibility|date=January 2016}}
First of all, who is claiming this? And who beyond the right-wing NPLC is claiming it or backing up the statement? Where are any additional reliable sources for this? This statement isn't encyclopedic as long as it remains so weaselly and POV. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 13:36, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Spent some time going through the sources and comparing to the article and there are things claimed in the article that aren't in the sources. Pulled in some Frontline URL's and sources and finally found where some of this seemingly misattributed information is coming from. Although, still, some of the statements in the article are not in that source and I put citation needed tag on one so far.
A great deal of the entire article is based on Lesson of a Lifetime By Stephen G. Bloom SMITHSONIAN MAGAZINE SEPTEMBER 2005 and it doesn't contain much of what is in the article. I found the full 29 page, unpublished article, by Stephen Bloom at Wordpress. Now, since it's unpublished on Wordpress, does it still meet the WP:BLP reliable source criteria? 97.85.173.38 ( talk) 06:38, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.
2) it does not involve claims about third parties;
3) it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
Anything with current source [4] - Bloom, Stephen G (September 2005). "Lesson of a Lifetime" . Smithsonian Magazine. Retrieved 2010-07-18. needs to be verified. I hit the first 5 links last night. 97.85.173.38 ( talk) 21:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
I've been hunting around for a reliable source for Elliott's birthdate, and all I can find is one for the year, 1933. For now, since the May 27, 1933 is longstanding, I won't remove it. But if anyone can find a reliable source for it, that would be much appreciated. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 23:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
In poking around on the subject of Jane Elliott's birthdate, I have discovered some things.
So, since she has a verified account on Facebook, I sent her a message asking her to help confirm either that "November 30, 1933" is her birthdate or that the current birthdate "May 27, 1933" is incorrect... whichever she is more comfortable doing. Ordinarily, a biographical subject can be relied on to tell us their own birthdate. If she confirms the latter, we should change the birthdate back to 1933. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:25, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I know Jane personally and her bday is indeed 11/30/1933 LaShonda Corder ( talk) 12:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Substantial text in this article is dedicated to the main visible work from the subject. Namely the "blue eyes brown eyes experiment". That content is scattered throughout the article. I propose a new article for the experiment with substantial portion of this article relocated there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lpa2a ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
"White Fragility" was supposedly coined by her in the early 2010s. However, I have found evidence in an article written in the September 2005 Smithsonian article about the Riceville, Iowa 3rd grade experiment by renowned teacher Jane Elliot that proves otherwise. And I quote, pp. 86, 4th paragraph "Elliot replied "Why are we so worried about the fragile egos of white children who experience a couple of hours of made up racism one day when blacks experience real racism every day of their lives?"" Gizziiusa ( talk) 06:44, 14 April 2022 (UTC)gizziiusa
Her parents are listed on FindAGrave.com. You can follow her family line back, her direct ancestor Robert Jennison came from England in the 17th century. She is an Anglo of New England stock, not an "Irish American." JustAChurchMouse ( talk) 20:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)