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Briefly; I'm using the accepted "English" version of Wilno, Vilna, Wilna, etc., which is Vilnius. Shouldn't have the Polish or Russian spellings in En-Wikipedia anytime it's mentioned. Just as the English article about Marie Curie says she was born in Warsaw, not Warszawa or Varsovie. Dr. Dan 15:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points: One, your first change was not to Vilna. Two, my addition of the the city into the article (which previously wasn't even there), concerns the name of the city in the English language today. Do you agree with my analogy concerning Curie? Should we call Warschau and Krakau, the names of these Polish cities, during the German occupation in WWII? Lastly, you should honestly ask yourself, if there isn't a twinge of latent nationalism motivating your position, rather than a desire for historical accuracy. The culmination of this nonsense lets people get away with absurdities like trying to deprive Copernicus of his ethnicity. This recent Copernicus debate was actually scary. Dr. Dan 16:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, my friend, I get your point and do agree that it is not without merit. But somehow you fail to grasp my point, and it is about the English, not Russian, or Polish, or German, or the Lithuanian languages. If you or I, are making a contribution to the Polish Wikipedia, or Italian Wikipedia about the city of Munich, I'm going to use Monachium and Monaco respectively, not München. And I will do that in spite of it's actual German name being München. So should you, with all due respect. Take the Italian name, Monaco, as an even further example that begins to confuse the unaware and unknowledgeable high school student, who thinks that Munich has something to do with Grace Kelly. Consistency, consistency, consistency. One article that touched upon Wilno, had every language in use through out the article (not the lead mind you), and one line read Vilna, another Vilnius, another Wilna. This doesn't work. Unfortunately for your ...err POV, the current name recognized by major English Encyclopedias is Vilnius ( got lucky, maybe?), so I'm not out of line in my reasoning. I'm sure by now, you know that I'm not a Zivinbudas, in sheep's clothing, and I believe neither are you. Where you and I really disagree on the matter, is more about the ability of a Lithuanian speaking person not having geographical names for cities and towns, or rivers and lakes until centuries later. That somehow, because the Lithuanian language's written expression was stunted for a variety of reasons, it is incorrect to accept that geographical locations did not have names in the Lithuanian language. As I said earlier in the above discussion, your initial "knee jerk reaction" was to make it Wilno, not Vilna ( a smidgen of the old Polish POV), but the current accepted English name is Vilnius, which I will continue to copy edit. Fortunately, there are lots of Polish links to most of these articles where the appropriate Polish nomenclature can be applied or learned. Dr. Dan 01:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC) p.s. The Pan, Pani question on my talk page is still not completely clear to me. p.p.s. I will get back to you on the matter I "lost," a couple of Sundays ago.
I did more than touch upon your point: anachronisms. Check out the definition of the word, and see if if doesn't apply more to my perspective, than to yours. I believe Wilno is the anachronism, not Vilnius. We're ignoring the English language argument, with double talk, aren't we? On mieskał w Nowym Amsterdamie, nie w Nowym Yorku, doesn't cut it in English, but I agree that that is the location where Peter Stuyvesant lived, New Amsterdam. Should we say that Wacław Sobieski lived and worked in Lemberg? Should we say that Kościuszko that took his sacred oath in Krakau (a very emotional place, for me, on the rynek w Krakowie, 24 Marca, my birthday), because with "Halibutt's Doctrine," historical accuracy, is being served. I don't understand your motives completely. You imply that that I have nationalistic motivations for my copy edits, and I tell you, you are mistaken. You have a very incorrect perspective regarding the Lithuanian language, to boot. Can you understand, that you are totally wrong in believing that "Vilnius" as a geographical location, is something that was created in 1918, by Lithuanian nationalists? Can you tell me or us, why your first edit, to my addition of Vilnius in English Wikipedia, to the Jan Kilinski article was to Wilno, not Vilna? Isn't that the real point? Please understand, that I like your intelligence and contributions to the Wikipedia Project, but you really have to take a deep look into what your need, to almost chauvinistically perceive Lithuania, or the Lithuanian language as something less important than you give them credit. I see in your vast travels, you appear to have skipped Lithuania on the itinerary (God forbid you've been there, but don't think it's important to mention, or worse, you thought you were in Poland), because I don't see it's little flag on your user page. I hope it's not because you were jilted by a Lithuanian lover, because Shakespeare was right about a lover scorned, and you'll keep a closed mind on the subject. Finally, in all seriousness, your point about the Battle of Stalingrad is correct, and has nothing to do with my position. Byzantium, Constantinople, and Istanbul have nothing to do with with my position either. Vilnius is the name of the city in English today, and BTW was the name of the city in Lithuanian too, when Kilinski briefly lived there. It's name in Russian was not, it's name in German was not, and finally it's name in Polish was not, Vilnius. But if you link to these sites in Wikipedia you won't get Wilno ang: Vilnius. Halibutt, please understand that my little crusade is not to remove necessary historical connections to Wilno, where they are appropriate, and I will help you, if necessary, to implement them in the proper context. I will however, implement consistency in the English Wikipedia, and continue to copy edit as needed. The article about the city is fine as it stands, but when referring to Vilnius in the English Wikipedia, that's the ticket, please no RVs 'cause of POVs. Dr. Dan 04:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC) p.s. I was delighted to meet Jan Paweł II w Rzymie, and John Paul II in Rome.
Agreed, I will leave poor Jan Kilinski out of our argument for now, and move our discussion/debate to our respective talk pages, if it becomes necessary. Before we leave, however, let me respond briefly to three points. 1. I never stated that I wanted to change anything about Stalingrad, nor did I imply that I ever wanted to. 2. Halibutt's travels to Lithuania, a joke (no conspiracies, fancy or otherwise). 3. You may think you always use the contemporary name (which BTW in English, implies current name), whereas in fact, you are merely using Wilno, which is the Polish name, then and now). Logically, or in fairness, if you prefer, we should use the languages of the partitioners of the Commonwealth, when discussing cities and towns in the PLC, so Lemberg and Kovno are the ticket. Right? Dr. Dan p.s. Thanks, but I really didn't need to take a deep breath.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Jan Kiliński article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Briefly; I'm using the accepted "English" version of Wilno, Vilna, Wilna, etc., which is Vilnius. Shouldn't have the Polish or Russian spellings in En-Wikipedia anytime it's mentioned. Just as the English article about Marie Curie says she was born in Warsaw, not Warszawa or Varsovie. Dr. Dan 15:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
A couple of points: One, your first change was not to Vilna. Two, my addition of the the city into the article (which previously wasn't even there), concerns the name of the city in the English language today. Do you agree with my analogy concerning Curie? Should we call Warschau and Krakau, the names of these Polish cities, during the German occupation in WWII? Lastly, you should honestly ask yourself, if there isn't a twinge of latent nationalism motivating your position, rather than a desire for historical accuracy. The culmination of this nonsense lets people get away with absurdities like trying to deprive Copernicus of his ethnicity. This recent Copernicus debate was actually scary. Dr. Dan 16:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, my friend, I get your point and do agree that it is not without merit. But somehow you fail to grasp my point, and it is about the English, not Russian, or Polish, or German, or the Lithuanian languages. If you or I, are making a contribution to the Polish Wikipedia, or Italian Wikipedia about the city of Munich, I'm going to use Monachium and Monaco respectively, not München. And I will do that in spite of it's actual German name being München. So should you, with all due respect. Take the Italian name, Monaco, as an even further example that begins to confuse the unaware and unknowledgeable high school student, who thinks that Munich has something to do with Grace Kelly. Consistency, consistency, consistency. One article that touched upon Wilno, had every language in use through out the article (not the lead mind you), and one line read Vilna, another Vilnius, another Wilna. This doesn't work. Unfortunately for your ...err POV, the current name recognized by major English Encyclopedias is Vilnius ( got lucky, maybe?), so I'm not out of line in my reasoning. I'm sure by now, you know that I'm not a Zivinbudas, in sheep's clothing, and I believe neither are you. Where you and I really disagree on the matter, is more about the ability of a Lithuanian speaking person not having geographical names for cities and towns, or rivers and lakes until centuries later. That somehow, because the Lithuanian language's written expression was stunted for a variety of reasons, it is incorrect to accept that geographical locations did not have names in the Lithuanian language. As I said earlier in the above discussion, your initial "knee jerk reaction" was to make it Wilno, not Vilna ( a smidgen of the old Polish POV), but the current accepted English name is Vilnius, which I will continue to copy edit. Fortunately, there are lots of Polish links to most of these articles where the appropriate Polish nomenclature can be applied or learned. Dr. Dan 01:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC) p.s. The Pan, Pani question on my talk page is still not completely clear to me. p.p.s. I will get back to you on the matter I "lost," a couple of Sundays ago.
I did more than touch upon your point: anachronisms. Check out the definition of the word, and see if if doesn't apply more to my perspective, than to yours. I believe Wilno is the anachronism, not Vilnius. We're ignoring the English language argument, with double talk, aren't we? On mieskał w Nowym Amsterdamie, nie w Nowym Yorku, doesn't cut it in English, but I agree that that is the location where Peter Stuyvesant lived, New Amsterdam. Should we say that Wacław Sobieski lived and worked in Lemberg? Should we say that Kościuszko that took his sacred oath in Krakau (a very emotional place, for me, on the rynek w Krakowie, 24 Marca, my birthday), because with "Halibutt's Doctrine," historical accuracy, is being served. I don't understand your motives completely. You imply that that I have nationalistic motivations for my copy edits, and I tell you, you are mistaken. You have a very incorrect perspective regarding the Lithuanian language, to boot. Can you understand, that you are totally wrong in believing that "Vilnius" as a geographical location, is something that was created in 1918, by Lithuanian nationalists? Can you tell me or us, why your first edit, to my addition of Vilnius in English Wikipedia, to the Jan Kilinski article was to Wilno, not Vilna? Isn't that the real point? Please understand, that I like your intelligence and contributions to the Wikipedia Project, but you really have to take a deep look into what your need, to almost chauvinistically perceive Lithuania, or the Lithuanian language as something less important than you give them credit. I see in your vast travels, you appear to have skipped Lithuania on the itinerary (God forbid you've been there, but don't think it's important to mention, or worse, you thought you were in Poland), because I don't see it's little flag on your user page. I hope it's not because you were jilted by a Lithuanian lover, because Shakespeare was right about a lover scorned, and you'll keep a closed mind on the subject. Finally, in all seriousness, your point about the Battle of Stalingrad is correct, and has nothing to do with my position. Byzantium, Constantinople, and Istanbul have nothing to do with with my position either. Vilnius is the name of the city in English today, and BTW was the name of the city in Lithuanian too, when Kilinski briefly lived there. It's name in Russian was not, it's name in German was not, and finally it's name in Polish was not, Vilnius. But if you link to these sites in Wikipedia you won't get Wilno ang: Vilnius. Halibutt, please understand that my little crusade is not to remove necessary historical connections to Wilno, where they are appropriate, and I will help you, if necessary, to implement them in the proper context. I will however, implement consistency in the English Wikipedia, and continue to copy edit as needed. The article about the city is fine as it stands, but when referring to Vilnius in the English Wikipedia, that's the ticket, please no RVs 'cause of POVs. Dr. Dan 04:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC) p.s. I was delighted to meet Jan Paweł II w Rzymie, and John Paul II in Rome.
Agreed, I will leave poor Jan Kilinski out of our argument for now, and move our discussion/debate to our respective talk pages, if it becomes necessary. Before we leave, however, let me respond briefly to three points. 1. I never stated that I wanted to change anything about Stalingrad, nor did I imply that I ever wanted to. 2. Halibutt's travels to Lithuania, a joke (no conspiracies, fancy or otherwise). 3. You may think you always use the contemporary name (which BTW in English, implies current name), whereas in fact, you are merely using Wilno, which is the Polish name, then and now). Logically, or in fairness, if you prefer, we should use the languages of the partitioners of the Commonwealth, when discussing cities and towns in the PLC, so Lemberg and Kovno are the ticket. Right? Dr. Dan p.s. Thanks, but I really didn't need to take a deep breath.