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Tavix, is it possible to get a script to convert all the existing links to Jammu and Kashmir to Jammu and Kashmir (state)? None of us have the energy to convert several thousand links that exist.
And if we don't do it, the nationalists will change them all to Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), irrespective of whether it makes sense. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No evidence for either the union territory or the state being the primary topic has been presented in the course of the requested move. Where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name. DrKay ( talk) 12:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Jammu and Kashmir → Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation) – Currently too many wikilinks to this title, difficult to edit all the articles. Instead this article can be mvoed to Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation), and the current title can be redirected to main article Jammu and Kashmir (Union Territory). Crashed greek ( talk) 09:12, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
I have looked at a small sample of incoming links and they are split between J&K(UT), J&K(state), Ladakh and apolitical references to the region. The latter should probably go to Kashmir, perhaps via a redirect such as Jammu and Kashmir area. Pages such as Khas people may need a specialist to tell us whether they live in J&K(UT), Ladakh or both. I've sorted out the remaining templates used in articles, and there are no unwanted incoming redirects. We're now down to 1,701 articles linking to the dab. Despite #Can we get a script? above, I don't believe that much of this process can be automated. We need a strategy, ideally involving someone familiar with the area. Certes ( talk) 15:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
The term Kashmir is highly misunderstood. Many people incorrectly believe Kashmir means Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Kashmir, and Aksai Chin combined. This mistake is also committed by large media houses, potentially based on Wikipedia’s usage. [1] The areas of Jammu and Ladakh have little in common with Kashmir. Each province has its own dominant ethnicity, religion, topography, climate, diverse culture, and distinct major language. Jammu has similarities with neighboring Punjab and Ladakh has similarities with neighboring Tibet and Gilgit Baltistan. To avoid this confusion it is very important to define what Kashmir is what it is not.
This is the accurate map of the former state of Jammu and Kashmir:
In this map, we can see correctly marked Jammu as J, Kashmir as K, and Ladakh as L. The more elaborated map can be seen here [2].
Christopher Snedden has multiple times emphasized that whenever he uses the word Kashmir, he meant the Kashmir Valley, not any other region as Kashmir Valley is the actual Kashmir. Apart from that he states that ethnic Kashmiris live in the Valley, and calling someone Kashmiri from Azad Kashmir would be a misnomer and he prefers the word Jammuties for them.
I use Kashmir to refer to the Kashmir Valley
Azad Jammu and Kashmir (also known as "Free Kashmir") is the southernmost political entity within the Pakistani-administered part of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir.
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)The state is situated on the northern fringe of India and comprises three distinct geographical regions: Jammu, Kashmir, and Ladakh.
… He admits that the term 'Azad Kashmir' is a misnomer … Snedden signs off by putting across his proposal for Kashmir's future: 'Let the people decide' (p. 227) … The Kashmiri Pandits have been displaced from the valley due to the Pakistan abetted militancy since the late 1980s …
… The Azad Kashmir or POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), as the Pak-held part of the state is called in Pakistan and India respectively, is, therefore, a misnomer. The entire Kashmiri-speaking area, ie the valley of Kashmir, is within the Indian part of the state and comprises just …
Indian news channels continue to refer to the Kashmir imbroglio as being applicable to the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir. This is a distortion. A further distortion comes from the popular slogan, “Kashmir to Kanyakumari – India is one”, used symbolically as a reflection of Indian Nationhood. This slogan while epitomising the spirit of India is actually a misnomer as Kashmir is not the northern most part of India and neither is Kanyakumari the southernmost tip. Factually, the two ends are ‘Indira Col’ and ‘Indira Point’. In the physical plane, Kashmir comprises 6.98 per cent of the total land mass of undivided Jammu and Kashmir and about 15 per cent of the land mass of Jammu and Kashmir as presently with India. Kashmir is thus geographically, a very small portion of the larger state of Jammu and Kashmir, the other two major constituents being the Ladakh and Jammu Divisions. It is thus surprising how a problem in less than 7 per cent of the land mass of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, is perceived as a problem engulfing the whole state and has gone on to become such a major international issue........ Kashmir refers to the place where Kashmiris live and where the Kashmiri language is natively spoken. Jammu and Ladakh Divisions have little in common with Kashmir. Each province has its own dominant ethnicity, religion, topography, climate, diverse culture and distinct major language. No other state in India has such intra-state diversity.
All this confusion was the result of the word Kashmir – a valley, Kashmir division or the state of Jammu and Kashmir. The valley at that time was under Sikh Darbar. The treaty merely transferred the vale from the Sikh rule to the new state under Gulab Singh. Sikh Darbar was an independent entity where as a new state was under the suzerainty of British Raj. It was just transferred from Sikh Governor to Gulab Singh. Gulab Singh paid rupees 75 lacs for the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir of which vale of Kashmir was a very small part. Gulab Singh got – the whole of the outer hills between the Ravi and the Indus, the Valley of Kashmir, Ladakh, Gilgit, Baltistan and Indus Valley down to Chilas
Similarly, the aspirations of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are not the same. Jammu and Ladakh regions, it is not a secret, stand for total merger with India and also for the abrogation of Article 370. Ladakh also wants the status of Union Territory and Jammu too has been struggling for separation from Kashmir in its own way. Ladakh has no problem with Jammu province. In fact, its leadership has on several occasions demanded separation of their region from Kashmir and demanded its merger either with Jammu or with Himachal Pradesh. Jammu and Ladakh would have become independent of Kashmir long back, had the Indian political class been not Kashmir-centric and essentially anti-Jammu and anti-Ladakh. It is the Indian political class that has thrown in their socio-economic and political life with Kashmir. As for the Kashmiri Muslim leadership, it is vertically divided into four groups demanding azadi, merger with Pakistan, self-rule and greater autonomy. Very significantly, internally-displaced Kashmiri Hindus, who are the original inhabitants of Kashmir, have been demanding creation of separate homeland for them within the Valley and also seeking Union Territory status for the area they want the Union Government to convert into Homeland (Panun Kashmir).
It is important to note that the majority of Azad Kashmiris are not Kashmiri-speaking. Many speak some dialect of Punjabi.
My proposal is as follows:
I am not sure what the problem is that is being addressed. If media houses "misunderstand" Kashmir, that is not our problem. As far as we are concerned, "Kashmir" is predemoninantly used to refer to the Kashmir region, which coincides with the former princely state. In addition, we also recognise that it is used for Kashmir Valley. If Christopher Snedden couldn't figure out how to lean the terms (other than his "personal preference"), I am not sure we can do so either.
But frankly, I don't see a "problem" having been identified. Confusions exist in the language. That is not a problem for Wikipedia. It is a problem only if we misrepresent it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, that is the whole point, the terminology is problematic, that is the reason I started this discussion and Jammu and Kashmir (princely state) is not my personal terminology, it has an article of its own. We have enough reliable sources addressing this name problem. On the basis of these sources, we can differentiate between Kashmir and the rest of the state. LearnIndology ( talk) 18:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)It is important to understand why the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was popularly known as ‘Kashmir’ during its existence, why the dispute over the international status of J&K is called ‘the Kashmir dispute’, and why the ruler of J&K also was known as ‘Kashmir’, even though he came from the region of Jammu, a separate and distinctly different region to Kashmir’s immediate south. (Similarly, the maharaja’s subjects were generally called ‘Kashmiris’, even though most were not ethnically so.) The reason for these uses of the term ‘Kashmir’ is easy to explain. It was because the geographic region of Kashmir was the most acclaimed, popular and visited part of the princely state of J&K during its official existence from 1846 until 1952.
LearnIndology ( talk) 15:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)It is important to understand why the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was popularly known as ‘Kashmir’ during its existence.
The so-called Treaty of Chushul, signed 17 September 1842, reads:
Śrī Khalsaji Apsarani Śrī Mahārājah; Lhasa representative Cabinet Minister Zurkhang; investigator Dapön Pelzhi, commander of forces; Balana, the representative of Gulam Kahandin; and the interpreter Amir Shah, have written this letter after sitting together. We have agreed that we have no ill-feelings because of the past war. The two kings will henceforth remain friends forever. The relationship between Mahārājah Gulab Singh of Kashmir and the Lama Guru of Tibet (Dalai Lama) is now established. [1]
I wonder why Gulab Singh was calling himself the Maharaja of "Kashmir", four years before the Treaty of Amritsar? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 20:11, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
References
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jammu and Kashmir (union territory) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 17:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
This page was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on 21 May 2020. The result of the discussion was disambiguate. |
This disambiguation page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Tavix, is it possible to get a script to convert all the existing links to Jammu and Kashmir to Jammu and Kashmir (state)? None of us have the energy to convert several thousand links that exist.
And if we don't do it, the nationalists will change them all to Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), irrespective of whether it makes sense. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. No evidence for either the union territory or the state being the primary topic has been presented in the course of the requested move. Where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name. DrKay ( talk) 12:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Jammu and Kashmir → Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation) – Currently too many wikilinks to this title, difficult to edit all the articles. Instead this article can be mvoed to Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation), and the current title can be redirected to main article Jammu and Kashmir (Union Territory). Crashed greek ( talk) 09:12, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
I have looked at a small sample of incoming links and they are split between J&K(UT), J&K(state), Ladakh and apolitical references to the region. The latter should probably go to Kashmir, perhaps via a redirect such as Jammu and Kashmir area. Pages such as Khas people may need a specialist to tell us whether they live in J&K(UT), Ladakh or both. I've sorted out the remaining templates used in articles, and there are no unwanted incoming redirects. We're now down to 1,701 articles linking to the dab. Despite #Can we get a script? above, I don't believe that much of this process can be automated. We need a strategy, ideally involving someone familiar with the area. Certes ( talk) 15:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
The term Kashmir is highly misunderstood. Many people incorrectly believe Kashmir means Jammu and Kashmir (union territory), Ladakh, Gilgit Baltistan, Azad Kashmir, and Aksai Chin combined. This mistake is also committed by large media houses, potentially based on Wikipedia’s usage. [1] The areas of Jammu and Ladakh have little in common with Kashmir. Each province has its own dominant ethnicity, religion, topography, climate, diverse culture, and distinct major language. Jammu has similarities with neighboring Punjab and Ladakh has similarities with neighboring Tibet and Gilgit Baltistan. To avoid this confusion it is very important to define what Kashmir is what it is not.
This is the accurate map of the former state of Jammu and Kashmir:
In this map, we can see correctly marked Jammu as J, Kashmir as K, and Ladakh as L. The more elaborated map can be seen here [2].
Christopher Snedden has multiple times emphasized that whenever he uses the word Kashmir, he meant the Kashmir Valley, not any other region as Kashmir Valley is the actual Kashmir. Apart from that he states that ethnic Kashmiris live in the Valley, and calling someone Kashmiri from Azad Kashmir would be a misnomer and he prefers the word Jammuties for them.
I use Kashmir to refer to the Kashmir Valley
Azad Jammu and Kashmir (also known as "Free Kashmir") is the southernmost political entity within the Pakistani-administered part of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir.
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)The state is situated on the northern fringe of India and comprises three distinct geographical regions: Jammu, Kashmir, and Ladakh.
… He admits that the term 'Azad Kashmir' is a misnomer … Snedden signs off by putting across his proposal for Kashmir's future: 'Let the people decide' (p. 227) … The Kashmiri Pandits have been displaced from the valley due to the Pakistan abetted militancy since the late 1980s …
… The Azad Kashmir or POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), as the Pak-held part of the state is called in Pakistan and India respectively, is, therefore, a misnomer. The entire Kashmiri-speaking area, ie the valley of Kashmir, is within the Indian part of the state and comprises just …
Indian news channels continue to refer to the Kashmir imbroglio as being applicable to the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir. This is a distortion. A further distortion comes from the popular slogan, “Kashmir to Kanyakumari – India is one”, used symbolically as a reflection of Indian Nationhood. This slogan while epitomising the spirit of India is actually a misnomer as Kashmir is not the northern most part of India and neither is Kanyakumari the southernmost tip. Factually, the two ends are ‘Indira Col’ and ‘Indira Point’. In the physical plane, Kashmir comprises 6.98 per cent of the total land mass of undivided Jammu and Kashmir and about 15 per cent of the land mass of Jammu and Kashmir as presently with India. Kashmir is thus geographically, a very small portion of the larger state of Jammu and Kashmir, the other two major constituents being the Ladakh and Jammu Divisions. It is thus surprising how a problem in less than 7 per cent of the land mass of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, is perceived as a problem engulfing the whole state and has gone on to become such a major international issue........ Kashmir refers to the place where Kashmiris live and where the Kashmiri language is natively spoken. Jammu and Ladakh Divisions have little in common with Kashmir. Each province has its own dominant ethnicity, religion, topography, climate, diverse culture and distinct major language. No other state in India has such intra-state diversity.
All this confusion was the result of the word Kashmir – a valley, Kashmir division or the state of Jammu and Kashmir. The valley at that time was under Sikh Darbar. The treaty merely transferred the vale from the Sikh rule to the new state under Gulab Singh. Sikh Darbar was an independent entity where as a new state was under the suzerainty of British Raj. It was just transferred from Sikh Governor to Gulab Singh. Gulab Singh paid rupees 75 lacs for the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir of which vale of Kashmir was a very small part. Gulab Singh got – the whole of the outer hills between the Ravi and the Indus, the Valley of Kashmir, Ladakh, Gilgit, Baltistan and Indus Valley down to Chilas
Similarly, the aspirations of Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are not the same. Jammu and Ladakh regions, it is not a secret, stand for total merger with India and also for the abrogation of Article 370. Ladakh also wants the status of Union Territory and Jammu too has been struggling for separation from Kashmir in its own way. Ladakh has no problem with Jammu province. In fact, its leadership has on several occasions demanded separation of their region from Kashmir and demanded its merger either with Jammu or with Himachal Pradesh. Jammu and Ladakh would have become independent of Kashmir long back, had the Indian political class been not Kashmir-centric and essentially anti-Jammu and anti-Ladakh. It is the Indian political class that has thrown in their socio-economic and political life with Kashmir. As for the Kashmiri Muslim leadership, it is vertically divided into four groups demanding azadi, merger with Pakistan, self-rule and greater autonomy. Very significantly, internally-displaced Kashmiri Hindus, who are the original inhabitants of Kashmir, have been demanding creation of separate homeland for them within the Valley and also seeking Union Territory status for the area they want the Union Government to convert into Homeland (Panun Kashmir).
It is important to note that the majority of Azad Kashmiris are not Kashmiri-speaking. Many speak some dialect of Punjabi.
My proposal is as follows:
I am not sure what the problem is that is being addressed. If media houses "misunderstand" Kashmir, that is not our problem. As far as we are concerned, "Kashmir" is predemoninantly used to refer to the Kashmir region, which coincides with the former princely state. In addition, we also recognise that it is used for Kashmir Valley. If Christopher Snedden couldn't figure out how to lean the terms (other than his "personal preference"), I am not sure we can do so either.
But frankly, I don't see a "problem" having been identified. Confusions exist in the language. That is not a problem for Wikipedia. It is a problem only if we misrepresent it. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, that is the whole point, the terminology is problematic, that is the reason I started this discussion and Jammu and Kashmir (princely state) is not my personal terminology, it has an article of its own. We have enough reliable sources addressing this name problem. On the basis of these sources, we can differentiate between Kashmir and the rest of the state. LearnIndology ( talk) 18:22, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)It is important to understand why the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was popularly known as ‘Kashmir’ during its existence, why the dispute over the international status of J&K is called ‘the Kashmir dispute’, and why the ruler of J&K also was known as ‘Kashmir’, even though he came from the region of Jammu, a separate and distinctly different region to Kashmir’s immediate south. (Similarly, the maharaja’s subjects were generally called ‘Kashmiris’, even though most were not ethnically so.) The reason for these uses of the term ‘Kashmir’ is easy to explain. It was because the geographic region of Kashmir was the most acclaimed, popular and visited part of the princely state of J&K during its official existence from 1846 until 1952.
LearnIndology ( talk) 15:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)It is important to understand why the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was popularly known as ‘Kashmir’ during its existence.
The so-called Treaty of Chushul, signed 17 September 1842, reads:
Śrī Khalsaji Apsarani Śrī Mahārājah; Lhasa representative Cabinet Minister Zurkhang; investigator Dapön Pelzhi, commander of forces; Balana, the representative of Gulam Kahandin; and the interpreter Amir Shah, have written this letter after sitting together. We have agreed that we have no ill-feelings because of the past war. The two kings will henceforth remain friends forever. The relationship between Mahārājah Gulab Singh of Kashmir and the Lama Guru of Tibet (Dalai Lama) is now established. [1]
I wonder why Gulab Singh was calling himself the Maharaja of "Kashmir", four years before the Treaty of Amritsar? -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 20:11, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
References
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jammu and Kashmir (union territory) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 17:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)