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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
There is dispute about the inclusion of a quote attributed to
TIME magazine. The objection is It is not a piece of news. It is an opinion. Opinions do not become facts. Fox example: HITLER OPINED THAT ARYAN RACE WAS SUPERIOR BUT THAT WAS JUST THAT AN OPINION NOT FACT.(and of course not true.)
Were that an accurate summary of the situation they would have a point - but it is not. TIME (a fact-checking, reliable publication) published as fact an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims
, it did not write Rana Ayyub opined that an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims
. I therefore believe it should stand.
Dorsetonian (
talk)
20:44, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram. That is a fact. I have problem with the part
Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims. This is not a fact. It is an opinion. Therefore I am asking for removal of this part only. Keep the part where it was used against the woman but to mention that it is a racist slur is derogatory and reflects badly on the religious slogan that it is. Further, Rana Ayuub is not an editor for the TIME. SHE HAS WRITTEN THIS ARTICLE IN THE 'IDEAS' COLUMN OF THE TIME WHICH MEANS THAT THE VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE PERSONAL AND NOT OF TIME. Therefore the part
TIME commented that the slogan had become a "racist dog whistle" against Muslimsis not right. It is Rana Ayuub who has such opinion and not TIME. Trojanishere ( talk) 14:17, 3 March 2020 (UTC)Trojanishere
This
edit request to
Jai Shri Ram has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Two requests, actually. I'm sure I won't regret wading into this.
1.) The word "thugs" is extraordinarily biased and possibly racist, regardless of who it's describing. (In the USA, it's widely accepted that a white person calling people of color "thugs" is making an inarguably racist statement.) Even though neither source uses it, it's deployed here in Wikipedia's voice, a pretty strong violation of WP:NPOV. I would say "rioters" would be an appropriate replacement.
2.) The Time article says
That's used to source this
This was added with this edit from User:Kautilya3, who seems to have copied, pasted, then made a few alterations (including a grammatical error in removing the hyphen between "year" and "old") when they should have read the sentence, considered what exactly it was saying, then typed out a detailed paraphrase of it here. That's borderline plagiarism and it's definitely a problem. One of the changes, where the entity that perpetrated this crime isn't named in the source ("burned alive while the mob outside chanted") but is named here ("burnt alive by a mob chanting"), is a clear violation of WP:RS and arguably WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. The entire sentence could probably be excised per WP:NOTNEWS and given the ongoing contentiousness at this entire topic area, that's what I would do and why I would do it. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:0:0:0:724 ( talk) 17:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Added sections on usage of the term in events other than violence. Without these, the article seems too focussed on the usage of this term in controversial incidents. Please make edits and improve the section but don't have some edit-war over this too. Jamailfaroukh ( talk) 19:45, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
One image is already on Commons and one I uploaded just now. do any of these seem suitable for the article? DTM ( talk) 10:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Jai Shri Ram has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
A depiction of Ram in Ayodhya. Jai Shri Ram is a Hindi expression, translating to "Glory to Lord Rama" or "Victory to Lord Rama".[1] The proclamation has been used as an informal greeting[2] or as a symbol of adhering to Hindu faith[3][4] or for projection of varied faith-centered emotions, by Hindus.[5][6][7] 2405:204:9611:21EE:0:0:32E:38AC ( talk) 19:51, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
The expression attracted notability after the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) embraced the slogan in the late 20th century,
The article stated this and I have copy edited to state.
The expression was used by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) which embraced the slogan in the late 20th century
Since I don't really believe that BJP made this slogan notable. It is a religious slogan used by Hindus long before BJP and Hindutva were created by a few people. If someone believes I have made a mistake they are welcome to produce reliable sources that support the line. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 07:41, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Jai Sia Ram(Hail lord Rama and Sita) to
Jai Sri Ram(Hail lord Rama). [1] I think that firstly, we need to cover its religious significance in the article. The lead section shouldn't start by saying
The expression was used be the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party...as a war-cry, for perpetration of communal atrocities against people of other faiths, as it currently does. This will be WP:UNDUE.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
References
Jai Sri Ramis masculinized, you may not actually be correct. The Sri in
Jai Sri Ramis not the word Shri used in Modern Hindi as honorific, but actually another name of Hindu Goddess Lakshmi. Per Ramayana, Sita was avatar of Goddess Lakshmi.
I have added a well cited 5 news links which is removed by an editor Harshil169 ,(despite various warnings to him to stay away and open discussions if he has any problem) telling every single 5 citation as unreliable. Requesting @ DBigXray: to take a look. Edward Zigma ( talk) 06:08, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
This one seems good. But we can change the use from "Was used" "is used" in devotional songs coz some good people still exist who use these religious slogans and give devotional message. Edward Zigma ( talk) 16:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@All, Since no one else commented and the folks who have are ok with the proposed version. I have added this to the article, with one minor change that the 2 headers are merged into one. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 13:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
References
Here is a scholar trying to explain the meaning of "Jai Shri Ram":
The formula was in fact a modification of an existing greeting; villagers and townspeople might greet each other, Jai Ram ji ki, or Jai Siyaram, the latter name referring to his consort Sita as well. For the most part, the words were spoken softly. Beginning with an emphasis on "Jai," and continuing onto 'Ram," the words would taper off into a quiet intonation that was almost a mutter, in relatively peaceable mutual acknowledgment or recognition. A sample greeting might be: JAI Ram ji ki. In the VHP form, the words were sanskritized, with the colloquial Siyaram giving way to the more formal Shri Ram. Karsevaks uttered the words loudly and defiantly, as a quasi-military salute rather than as a greeting or a shared prayer. So that now, it would be rendered: JAI SHRI RAM! The clear enunciation of each word and the high pitch of their utterance indicated not an invocation of conventional sentiment, but rather the statement of an explicit difference from convention or the emergence of a new one. The expectation of having the statement repeated in return signaled not greetings returned so much as the acknowledgment of this difference. Those whom I encountered uttering this cry were usually young men, dressed relatively fashionably in baggy trousers and shirts, and often adorned with saffron bands around their foreheads or arms. Being greeted in this way, one was immediately put on trial, in a sense, for they expected a reply. And in replying, one became aware of the loudness of the report, either by the effort required to match it or by one's failure to do so. In socio-linguistic terms, the difference in the VHP greeting marked dialectal variation rather than register variation, highlighting not use, but the user, as belonging to a different social group.[34] One college lecturer said that the locals were now afraid to utter the greeting: the meaning was no longer theirs, it had become inflected with alien intonations.[35] This was only the most superficial level of a presence that some residents described as highly coercive. [1]
I think it is ridiculous to describe this as having anything to do with Hinduism. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:41, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
References
In 1992, during riots and Demolition of Babri Masjid,the same slogans were raised. [1] [2]
In 2019, before his lynching, Tabrez Ansari was forced by the mob to chant religious slogans "Jai Shree Ram" and "Jai Hanuman". [3]
On February 2020, in an incident of mass molestation and sexual harassment at Gargi College, the victims of harassment alleged that the perpetrators were chanting the slogan of "Jay Shree Ram" [4]
References
{{
cite web}}
: |first4=
has numeric name (
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link)
Did this expression even exist in any significant manner, prior to BJP/VHP introduction? I think the only focus of this article, (which I am going to write over the course of next few days), will be about folks from BJP using it as a war-cry against Muslims/Christians. I am seeing nearly nothing in scholarly literature, otherwise. ∯WBG converse 16:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
I am going to add a section about historical usage of this slogan. It seems quite unfair to have only current day misuse of this slogan on the page. Jamailfaroukh ( talk) 19:12, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
The history of the Rama cult is pretty complicated, and Sheldon Pollock's views are quite speculative. Yes, the growth of Rama cult coincided with the Muslim rule, but historians say that it didn't lead to any Hindu-Muslim conflict. The Muslim governors of Ayodhya were quite happy to support the Rama cult throughout the centuries. Only after Aurangzeb did the problems start. Even then, many sociological observers say that "Ram Ram" was equally a greeting used by the Hindus and Muslims of the region. The nawabs of Awadh again supported Rama worship in Ayodhya, and the temples mushroomed precisely during their time. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:11, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
This section is full of trivial mentions about the slogan. Unless such sources can be found which significantly cover the slogan's usage in violent scenarios, this section should be removed as per WP:NOTDIARY. Bharatiya 29 12:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I have also reinstated the "Fake cases alleging usage of Jai Shri Ram" section. As long as a consensus is not achieved regarding how these two sections should be treated, it is better to present the whole picture in order to maintain a neutral and balanced point of view. Bharatiya 29 12:26, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
A new section is added. But it has no true sources. This new facthunt site seem lie full unreliable sources and a political bias. Should it be allowed? If we have true sources regarding this, then the section should be added but not with these unreliable sources. But this facthunt and other citations seems fishy. Edward Zigma ( talk) 17:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
A few thoughts on this:
Even if The Logical Indian were to be a reliable source in general, the particular article being used here is entirely dependent on facthunt.in. So it cannot be accepted, that too for a huge section making a BIG DEAL and forming roughly half the page! -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 09:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
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Whoever is the writer of this page, please get your facts right. Jai Shri Ram is NOT a war cry! It is a devotional chant made by devotees of hinduism meaning "Glory to Ram". It's supposed to give inner strength and peace to devotees or people in general who are facing a crisis and wish for a divine intervention.
Also, edit OR DELETE the part where you've stated that Jai Shri Ram chants were used in demolition of Babri Masjid, and other atrocities. Would you dare to write such a thing about the WAR CRY "Allahu Akbar", which is shouted by terrorists before or during a terrorist attack? Why do I feel like the editor is a muslim? DELETE those bullshit you wrote and stop spreading fake propaganda! 2409:4070:418E:F09A:0:0:28DD:28A1 ( talk) 13:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Remove: Jai Shri Ram is a greeting of sorts, and is not new, as claimed in the Wiki. There is no real reason in good faith to create this Wiki at all, if the root meaning and emotions of the "phrase" are conceitedly ignored, only to unjustly glorify the Hinduphobic angle where certain left-leaning media and instances have quoted and alleged misuse of this "slogan" at time of said instances. The poster or posting organisation clearly has no good or righteous intentions behind making this Wiki. And thus, it should not be kept up. It abuses the spirit of Wikipedia, to further a venomous political agenda of anti-Hindu forces. Pareshpandit ( talk) 19:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
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Citation Number 18 is non existent Crosscheckererer ( talk) 11:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Jai Shree ram is not war cry but it the way to greet peoples PARTH SHRIVASTAVA ( talk) 18:41, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
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jai Shree ram is not a war cry but it is way to greet peoples so this term war cry should be removed as it hurt the sentiments of Hindus PARTH SHRIVASTAVA ( talk) 18:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
This article is now written about on OpIndia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 10:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Actually no, I generally never rely on OpIndia's Articles as they are fairly biased, sometimes hateful even. My activity on this page is solely because of the manner in which the article is written, and not its content. The very fact that there is more criticism in the article about the slogan than about its history, tells us how poorly the article has been written. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 13:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
This article is edited by some fake editor and his claim is wrong so please take it down. Shucasm ( talk) 19:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
This article must be taken down for the false narratives, it is just propaganda article, to defame hindu gods. Lalitkumar97 ( talk) 07:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The article is far from reality and truth. It falsely portrays the true legeny of Shree Ram and it's slogan Jai Shree Ram. Please correct the page.
Yuganksharma ( talk) 03:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Jai Sri Ram is an old chant. It's recent usage by communal forces shouldn't be in the lead. See Takbir, the political and warfare usage of it are not in the lead, they are in another section. If no one disagrees, I'll move it. TryKid dubious – discuss 01:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Prem Sagar’s biography of his father, Ramanand Sagar, begins with the words “Jai Shri Ram”, reflecting not only the TV mogul’s preferred salutation, but also the slogan he made part of a vast swathe of Indian households through Doordarshan’s Ramayan. [1]
He told Madhu Jain, 'Transporting everyone to that golden age, I have brought the college boy from the disco culture to the Ramayan. College boys don't say "Hi" any more, they say "Jai Shri Ram ki" "Long live Shri Ram."' [2]
When Chikhalia asked Sagar why his usual greeting was “Jai Shri Ram” and not “Jai Siya Ram”, he took note. [1]
In Ayodhya, you will almost never hear a woman devotee, either a resident or a pilgrim, use the slogan “Jai Shri Ram”. It is always “Sita-Ram-Sita-Ram” that you hear being chanted. [3]
References
It is true that Ramanand Sagar production of Ramayana serial was very popular in time , but it is totally irrelevant to compare with it Ayodhya dispute and Jay Shri Ram slogan, because it was the local people (people of Ayodhya) that were fighting for their rights from one generation after another generation irrespective of their political leaning.
Most of people have lack of knowledge of the Awadhi culture, tradition and language , because they only know North India in conventional political terms like "Hindi belt" that's why they don't know that in most our local folk song, there is large number of chantings and greetings like Ram-Ram, Jai shri ram, sita-ram, Jai sita ram and etc in Awadhi language
223.180.180.221 —Preceding undated comment added 16:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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The expression was used all over the world as a greeting (on the name of Dharma) for starting any conversation.[ Mamadharma ( talk) 15:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
I am afraid the background sections have overwhelmed the main body of the article. This is always a sign of WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I just went through the article's history and the talk page history and found that the chant's "usage in fake cases" section was removed because of lack of WP: RS. I did some research and and found several sources for the fake cases and all are Reliable sources. So I thought they might be helpful here.
I hope they are helpful. Krish | Talk To Me 13:56, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Krish!, you say that you are not proposing any changes and yet you insist that it should be added in the article. Further, you talk about the slogan's "history" but cite no RS for the same. SerChevalerie ( talk) 16:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Ehsan Jafri was a Member of Parliament from Ahmedabad: [1]
The attack started at 7 a.m., when the VHP started closing down shops. The police knew what was happening. Constables posted outside watched as the mob killed the owner of Ankur cycle shop just outside the society. A frightened Mr Jafri immediately called the police commissioner. Joint commissioner of police M.K. Tandon came for ten minutes at 11 a.m., while the crowds were swelling and shouting ‘Jai Shri Ram’. He left, assuring that he would send SRP troops. Soon after, a bakery and autorickshaw were burned right outside. The owners of the bakery were the first to be savaged by the mob.
Inside the house, Jafri pleaded with the mob to spare the women. They dragged him out on to the street. Outside, the former MP was stripped, paraded naked and asked to say ‘Jai Shri Ram’. He refused. His fingers were chopped off. Half dead, he was paraded around the neighbourhood. Then they hacked off his hands and feet. His body was dragged down the road and thrown into the fire. Later, the chief minister said that Ahsan Jafri was the first to fire at the mob. Witnesses deny this, and police officers say that there is no proof of this except a gun found in the remains.
-- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Parassharma1, the following sources you added in Special:Diff/970602628 are questionable and/or self-published:
Please don't cite unreliable sources like these into the article. — Newslinger talk 09:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I know that a large number of sources have reported use of Jai Shree Ram in communal violence. And might have been used. But an encyclopedia article should tell first, what the thing is. What it is about. Why it came into existence. Why it is famous. Etc. However this article starts with a prejudice against the use of the slogan.
For many, the slogan is simply a short prayer. To remember the Hindu Deity Lord Rama and seek his blessings. The slogan wasn't intended to be used in communal violence. Ever. However the people who edited the article over time have made the slogan look like a war-cry used by the Hindu organizations and Political parties, used only at the time of riots and for polarising people.
If the article is o be truly neutral, it should explain the slogan in following manner: 1. Introduction: A neutral one. Should not include its use in riots or mass polarisation. 2. History: Should tell about the origins of the slogan. 3. Popular use: Should tell about the slogan use in the Ramanand Sagar Ramayan. 4. Negative Use(Preferably misuse): Here one may write about its use in incidents involving violence.
After this you will notice, that 90% of the sources cited are for pt. 4. This gives a clear indication that the article is more about the misuse/negative use of Jai Shree Ram than the slogan itself.
Please consider this. I am just trying to improve Wikipedia's articles. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 10:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
You people are free to believe whatever you believe. But we are limited to reporting what the reliable sources say. So if you do not have any reliable sources that witness your supposed religious usage, I suggest you withdraw and leave this article in peace. Without RS, there is nothing you can achieve here. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 14:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
this is not a war cry ... its a mantra recited by hindus for spiritual purpose. why this bias towards hindus by Wikipedia Nemish1p ( talk) 00:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Larry Sanger: I hate to break it to you #Wikipedia fanbois: "consensus" is not possible on Wikipedia. It stopped being something that can be taken seriously, I'd say, in 2002. You really do need to develop a new and better way of deciding disputes; "consensus" is silly propaganda. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 06:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
' Jai Shri Ram ' is not only hindi expression but also a nepali expression to praise the lord Ram. Should be edited. Nepal knowledge ( talk) 14:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Nepali and Hindi both are derived from Sanskrit language. So some word/phrase can be similar. Since Nepal and India are only (most probably) countries with hindu majority, and Nepali and Hindi are their national language respectivly, including Nepali and Hindi will be fine. Nepal knowledge ( talk) 16:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie , Why did you replace 'Hindu Chant' with 'Hindi expression' ? 'Jai shri Ram' is common saying among all hindus, but all hindus don't speak hindi. And also in reference, it is referred as 'Hindu Chant'. 'hindi expression' should be replaced with 'hindu chant'. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 08:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie, it seems you don't want to replace 'hindi expression'. The source is more than enough to replace 'hindi expression' with 'hindu chant'. And 'Jai Shri Ram'is not referred as 'hindi expression' in the source . As I previously mentioned, 'Jai Shri Ram' is common saying among all the hindus, but all hindus don't speak hindi. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 11:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
So articles related to this are rarely published. I will provide if I find any. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 16:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I am contesting the claim sourced to Raksha Kumar's column in South China Morning Post. The article provides no evidence for the claim that "Jai Shri Ram" was "once a greeting" and contradicts multiple scholarly sources that say otherwise. We have no idea of the credentials of the author or the basis of her claims. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 08:23, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
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Please replace "war cry" in the lede with a more neutral term. War cry can also mean "a call made to rally soldiers for battle" according to Google’s dictionary. A more appropriate term could be "rallying call" as the phrase is also used by the BJP merely to rally voters to their cause, and also used to rally some nuts into committing crimes. 45.251.33.60 ( talk) 08:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Ram's name [was made into] the rallying cry of [the] movement [which] to worried British officials was a "war cry"(my emphases). Dorsetonian ( talk) 09:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
[The BJP] went on to use it as a war cry. That is us saying it was used by them as a war cry. Clearly it has not been, because they have never used it in war. At best, the original author used in an idiomatic sense, but an encyclopaedia requires scholarly precision - especially in the lead, and especially when it is clearly non-neutral. Dorsetonian ( talk) 10:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think "war cry" means it is used in war. The OED says:
A cry (whether a shout or a significant name or phrase) uttered by a body of fighters to encourage each other in charging the enemy or in rallying to the fray.
Cambridge English Dictionary says [8]:
a phrase or word shouted by people as they start to fight, intended to give them the strength and wish to fight harder.
-- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie ( talk) 20:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)A call made to rally soldiers for battle or to gather together participants in a campaign.
I think it's the official host for Oxford Dictionaries, I remember seeing an old link of Oxford redirecting to lexico at History-sheeter. Will have to research. In any case, I believe the issues have been addressed here. SerChevalerie ( talk) 20:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
killing people in the name of Ram is wrong but why they generalize all Ram bhakts?? Ram bhakts don't use it as war cry
According to this generalization based logic, we can also say that Ola hu uber is a slogan used before killing kafirs Basu021 ( talk) 10:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
According to this generalization based logic, we can also say that Ola hu uber is a slogan used before killing kafirs....
All terrorist Group use allah hu akbar befor killing innocent peoples .. So accroding to your logic allah hu akbar is a terrorist slogan and linked with terrorism ?
Basu021 (
talk)
10:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
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"and went on to use it as a war cry, for perpetration of communal atrocities against people of other faiths" this is highly offensive to hindu faith. Please remove this. AjayROjha ( talk) 16:31, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
There is dispute about the inclusion of a quote attributed to
TIME magazine. The objection is It is not a piece of news. It is an opinion. Opinions do not become facts. Fox example: HITLER OPINED THAT ARYAN RACE WAS SUPERIOR BUT THAT WAS JUST THAT AN OPINION NOT FACT.(and of course not true.)
Were that an accurate summary of the situation they would have a point - but it is not. TIME (a fact-checking, reliable publication) published as fact an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims
, it did not write Rana Ayyub opined that an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims
. I therefore believe it should stand.
Dorsetonian (
talk)
20:44, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
an 85-year-old woman was burned alive while the mob outside chanted Jai Shri Ram. That is a fact. I have problem with the part
Jai Shri Ram, a Hindu devotional that has become a racist dog whistle against Muslims. This is not a fact. It is an opinion. Therefore I am asking for removal of this part only. Keep the part where it was used against the woman but to mention that it is a racist slur is derogatory and reflects badly on the religious slogan that it is. Further, Rana Ayuub is not an editor for the TIME. SHE HAS WRITTEN THIS ARTICLE IN THE 'IDEAS' COLUMN OF THE TIME WHICH MEANS THAT THE VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE PERSONAL AND NOT OF TIME. Therefore the part
TIME commented that the slogan had become a "racist dog whistle" against Muslimsis not right. It is Rana Ayuub who has such opinion and not TIME. Trojanishere ( talk) 14:17, 3 March 2020 (UTC)Trojanishere
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Two requests, actually. I'm sure I won't regret wading into this.
1.) The word "thugs" is extraordinarily biased and possibly racist, regardless of who it's describing. (In the USA, it's widely accepted that a white person calling people of color "thugs" is making an inarguably racist statement.) Even though neither source uses it, it's deployed here in Wikipedia's voice, a pretty strong violation of WP:NPOV. I would say "rioters" would be an appropriate replacement.
2.) The Time article says
That's used to source this
This was added with this edit from User:Kautilya3, who seems to have copied, pasted, then made a few alterations (including a grammatical error in removing the hyphen between "year" and "old") when they should have read the sentence, considered what exactly it was saying, then typed out a detailed paraphrase of it here. That's borderline plagiarism and it's definitely a problem. One of the changes, where the entity that perpetrated this crime isn't named in the source ("burned alive while the mob outside chanted") but is named here ("burnt alive by a mob chanting"), is a clear violation of WP:RS and arguably WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. The entire sentence could probably be excised per WP:NOTNEWS and given the ongoing contentiousness at this entire topic area, that's what I would do and why I would do it. 2600:1700:B7A1:9A30:0:0:0:724 ( talk) 17:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
Added sections on usage of the term in events other than violence. Without these, the article seems too focussed on the usage of this term in controversial incidents. Please make edits and improve the section but don't have some edit-war over this too. Jamailfaroukh ( talk) 19:45, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
One image is already on Commons and one I uploaded just now. do any of these seem suitable for the article? DTM ( talk) 10:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
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A depiction of Ram in Ayodhya. Jai Shri Ram is a Hindi expression, translating to "Glory to Lord Rama" or "Victory to Lord Rama".[1] The proclamation has been used as an informal greeting[2] or as a symbol of adhering to Hindu faith[3][4] or for projection of varied faith-centered emotions, by Hindus.[5][6][7] 2405:204:9611:21EE:0:0:32E:38AC ( talk) 19:51, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
The expression attracted notability after the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) embraced the slogan in the late 20th century,
The article stated this and I have copy edited to state.
The expression was used by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) which embraced the slogan in the late 20th century
Since I don't really believe that BJP made this slogan notable. It is a religious slogan used by Hindus long before BJP and Hindutva were created by a few people. If someone believes I have made a mistake they are welcome to produce reliable sources that support the line. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 07:41, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Jai Sia Ram(Hail lord Rama and Sita) to
Jai Sri Ram(Hail lord Rama). [1] I think that firstly, we need to cover its religious significance in the article. The lead section shouldn't start by saying
The expression was used be the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party...as a war-cry, for perpetration of communal atrocities against people of other faiths, as it currently does. This will be WP:UNDUE.— Vaibhavafro 💬 08:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
References
Jai Sri Ramis masculinized, you may not actually be correct. The Sri in
Jai Sri Ramis not the word Shri used in Modern Hindi as honorific, but actually another name of Hindu Goddess Lakshmi. Per Ramayana, Sita was avatar of Goddess Lakshmi.
I have added a well cited 5 news links which is removed by an editor Harshil169 ,(despite various warnings to him to stay away and open discussions if he has any problem) telling every single 5 citation as unreliable. Requesting @ DBigXray: to take a look. Edward Zigma ( talk) 06:08, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
This one seems good. But we can change the use from "Was used" "is used" in devotional songs coz some good people still exist who use these religious slogans and give devotional message. Edward Zigma ( talk) 16:21, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
@All, Since no one else commented and the folks who have are ok with the proposed version. I have added this to the article, with one minor change that the 2 headers are merged into one. -- DBig Xrayᗙ 13:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
References
Here is a scholar trying to explain the meaning of "Jai Shri Ram":
The formula was in fact a modification of an existing greeting; villagers and townspeople might greet each other, Jai Ram ji ki, or Jai Siyaram, the latter name referring to his consort Sita as well. For the most part, the words were spoken softly. Beginning with an emphasis on "Jai," and continuing onto 'Ram," the words would taper off into a quiet intonation that was almost a mutter, in relatively peaceable mutual acknowledgment or recognition. A sample greeting might be: JAI Ram ji ki. In the VHP form, the words were sanskritized, with the colloquial Siyaram giving way to the more formal Shri Ram. Karsevaks uttered the words loudly and defiantly, as a quasi-military salute rather than as a greeting or a shared prayer. So that now, it would be rendered: JAI SHRI RAM! The clear enunciation of each word and the high pitch of their utterance indicated not an invocation of conventional sentiment, but rather the statement of an explicit difference from convention or the emergence of a new one. The expectation of having the statement repeated in return signaled not greetings returned so much as the acknowledgment of this difference. Those whom I encountered uttering this cry were usually young men, dressed relatively fashionably in baggy trousers and shirts, and often adorned with saffron bands around their foreheads or arms. Being greeted in this way, one was immediately put on trial, in a sense, for they expected a reply. And in replying, one became aware of the loudness of the report, either by the effort required to match it or by one's failure to do so. In socio-linguistic terms, the difference in the VHP greeting marked dialectal variation rather than register variation, highlighting not use, but the user, as belonging to a different social group.[34] One college lecturer said that the locals were now afraid to utter the greeting: the meaning was no longer theirs, it had become inflected with alien intonations.[35] This was only the most superficial level of a presence that some residents described as highly coercive. [1]
I think it is ridiculous to describe this as having anything to do with Hinduism. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 16:41, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
References
In 1992, during riots and Demolition of Babri Masjid,the same slogans were raised. [1] [2]
In 2019, before his lynching, Tabrez Ansari was forced by the mob to chant religious slogans "Jai Shree Ram" and "Jai Hanuman". [3]
On February 2020, in an incident of mass molestation and sexual harassment at Gargi College, the victims of harassment alleged that the perpetrators were chanting the slogan of "Jay Shree Ram" [4]
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Did this expression even exist in any significant manner, prior to BJP/VHP introduction? I think the only focus of this article, (which I am going to write over the course of next few days), will be about folks from BJP using it as a war-cry against Muslims/Christians. I am seeing nearly nothing in scholarly literature, otherwise. ∯WBG converse 16:02, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
I am going to add a section about historical usage of this slogan. It seems quite unfair to have only current day misuse of this slogan on the page. Jamailfaroukh ( talk) 19:12, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
The history of the Rama cult is pretty complicated, and Sheldon Pollock's views are quite speculative. Yes, the growth of Rama cult coincided with the Muslim rule, but historians say that it didn't lead to any Hindu-Muslim conflict. The Muslim governors of Ayodhya were quite happy to support the Rama cult throughout the centuries. Only after Aurangzeb did the problems start. Even then, many sociological observers say that "Ram Ram" was equally a greeting used by the Hindus and Muslims of the region. The nawabs of Awadh again supported Rama worship in Ayodhya, and the temples mushroomed precisely during their time. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:11, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
This section is full of trivial mentions about the slogan. Unless such sources can be found which significantly cover the slogan's usage in violent scenarios, this section should be removed as per WP:NOTDIARY. Bharatiya 29 12:16, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I have also reinstated the "Fake cases alleging usage of Jai Shri Ram" section. As long as a consensus is not achieved regarding how these two sections should be treated, it is better to present the whole picture in order to maintain a neutral and balanced point of view. Bharatiya 29 12:26, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
A new section is added. But it has no true sources. This new facthunt site seem lie full unreliable sources and a political bias. Should it be allowed? If we have true sources regarding this, then the section should be added but not with these unreliable sources. But this facthunt and other citations seems fishy. Edward Zigma ( talk) 17:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
A few thoughts on this:
Even if The Logical Indian were to be a reliable source in general, the particular article being used here is entirely dependent on facthunt.in. So it cannot be accepted, that too for a huge section making a BIG DEAL and forming roughly half the page! -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 09:54, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
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Whoever is the writer of this page, please get your facts right. Jai Shri Ram is NOT a war cry! It is a devotional chant made by devotees of hinduism meaning "Glory to Ram". It's supposed to give inner strength and peace to devotees or people in general who are facing a crisis and wish for a divine intervention.
Also, edit OR DELETE the part where you've stated that Jai Shri Ram chants were used in demolition of Babri Masjid, and other atrocities. Would you dare to write such a thing about the WAR CRY "Allahu Akbar", which is shouted by terrorists before or during a terrorist attack? Why do I feel like the editor is a muslim? DELETE those bullshit you wrote and stop spreading fake propaganda! 2409:4070:418E:F09A:0:0:28DD:28A1 ( talk) 13:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Remove: Jai Shri Ram is a greeting of sorts, and is not new, as claimed in the Wiki. There is no real reason in good faith to create this Wiki at all, if the root meaning and emotions of the "phrase" are conceitedly ignored, only to unjustly glorify the Hinduphobic angle where certain left-leaning media and instances have quoted and alleged misuse of this "slogan" at time of said instances. The poster or posting organisation clearly has no good or righteous intentions behind making this Wiki. And thus, it should not be kept up. It abuses the spirit of Wikipedia, to further a venomous political agenda of anti-Hindu forces. Pareshpandit ( talk) 19:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
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Citation Number 18 is non existent Crosscheckererer ( talk) 11:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Jai Shree ram is not war cry but it the way to greet peoples PARTH SHRIVASTAVA ( talk) 18:41, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
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jai Shree ram is not a war cry but it is way to greet peoples so this term war cry should be removed as it hurt the sentiments of Hindus PARTH SHRIVASTAVA ( talk) 18:40, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
This article is now written about on OpIndia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 10:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Actually no, I generally never rely on OpIndia's Articles as they are fairly biased, sometimes hateful even. My activity on this page is solely because of the manner in which the article is written, and not its content. The very fact that there is more criticism in the article about the slogan than about its history, tells us how poorly the article has been written. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 13:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
This article is edited by some fake editor and his claim is wrong so please take it down. Shucasm ( talk) 19:29, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
This article must be taken down for the false narratives, it is just propaganda article, to defame hindu gods. Lalitkumar97 ( talk) 07:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The article is far from reality and truth. It falsely portrays the true legeny of Shree Ram and it's slogan Jai Shree Ram. Please correct the page.
Yuganksharma ( talk) 03:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Jai Sri Ram is an old chant. It's recent usage by communal forces shouldn't be in the lead. See Takbir, the political and warfare usage of it are not in the lead, they are in another section. If no one disagrees, I'll move it. TryKid dubious – discuss 01:36, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Prem Sagar’s biography of his father, Ramanand Sagar, begins with the words “Jai Shri Ram”, reflecting not only the TV mogul’s preferred salutation, but also the slogan he made part of a vast swathe of Indian households through Doordarshan’s Ramayan. [1]
He told Madhu Jain, 'Transporting everyone to that golden age, I have brought the college boy from the disco culture to the Ramayan. College boys don't say "Hi" any more, they say "Jai Shri Ram ki" "Long live Shri Ram."' [2]
When Chikhalia asked Sagar why his usual greeting was “Jai Shri Ram” and not “Jai Siya Ram”, he took note. [1]
In Ayodhya, you will almost never hear a woman devotee, either a resident or a pilgrim, use the slogan “Jai Shri Ram”. It is always “Sita-Ram-Sita-Ram” that you hear being chanted. [3]
References
It is true that Ramanand Sagar production of Ramayana serial was very popular in time , but it is totally irrelevant to compare with it Ayodhya dispute and Jay Shri Ram slogan, because it was the local people (people of Ayodhya) that were fighting for their rights from one generation after another generation irrespective of their political leaning.
Most of people have lack of knowledge of the Awadhi culture, tradition and language , because they only know North India in conventional political terms like "Hindi belt" that's why they don't know that in most our local folk song, there is large number of chantings and greetings like Ram-Ram, Jai shri ram, sita-ram, Jai sita ram and etc in Awadhi language
223.180.180.221 —Preceding undated comment added 16:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
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The expression was used all over the world as a greeting (on the name of Dharma) for starting any conversation.[ Mamadharma ( talk) 15:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
I am afraid the background sections have overwhelmed the main body of the article. This is always a sign of WP:POV. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 12:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I just went through the article's history and the talk page history and found that the chant's "usage in fake cases" section was removed because of lack of WP: RS. I did some research and and found several sources for the fake cases and all are Reliable sources. So I thought they might be helpful here.
I hope they are helpful. Krish | Talk To Me 13:56, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Krish!, you say that you are not proposing any changes and yet you insist that it should be added in the article. Further, you talk about the slogan's "history" but cite no RS for the same. SerChevalerie ( talk) 16:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Ehsan Jafri was a Member of Parliament from Ahmedabad: [1]
The attack started at 7 a.m., when the VHP started closing down shops. The police knew what was happening. Constables posted outside watched as the mob killed the owner of Ankur cycle shop just outside the society. A frightened Mr Jafri immediately called the police commissioner. Joint commissioner of police M.K. Tandon came for ten minutes at 11 a.m., while the crowds were swelling and shouting ‘Jai Shri Ram’. He left, assuring that he would send SRP troops. Soon after, a bakery and autorickshaw were burned right outside. The owners of the bakery were the first to be savaged by the mob.
Inside the house, Jafri pleaded with the mob to spare the women. They dragged him out on to the street. Outside, the former MP was stripped, paraded naked and asked to say ‘Jai Shri Ram’. He refused. His fingers were chopped off. Half dead, he was paraded around the neighbourhood. Then they hacked off his hands and feet. His body was dragged down the road and thrown into the fire. Later, the chief minister said that Ahsan Jafri was the first to fire at the mob. Witnesses deny this, and police officers say that there is no proof of this except a gun found in the remains.
-- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Parassharma1, the following sources you added in Special:Diff/970602628 are questionable and/or self-published:
Please don't cite unreliable sources like these into the article. — Newslinger talk 09:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
I know that a large number of sources have reported use of Jai Shree Ram in communal violence. And might have been used. But an encyclopedia article should tell first, what the thing is. What it is about. Why it came into existence. Why it is famous. Etc. However this article starts with a prejudice against the use of the slogan.
For many, the slogan is simply a short prayer. To remember the Hindu Deity Lord Rama and seek his blessings. The slogan wasn't intended to be used in communal violence. Ever. However the people who edited the article over time have made the slogan look like a war-cry used by the Hindu organizations and Political parties, used only at the time of riots and for polarising people.
If the article is o be truly neutral, it should explain the slogan in following manner: 1. Introduction: A neutral one. Should not include its use in riots or mass polarisation. 2. History: Should tell about the origins of the slogan. 3. Popular use: Should tell about the slogan use in the Ramanand Sagar Ramayan. 4. Negative Use(Preferably misuse): Here one may write about its use in incidents involving violence.
After this you will notice, that 90% of the sources cited are for pt. 4. This gives a clear indication that the article is more about the misuse/negative use of Jai Shree Ram than the slogan itself.
Please consider this. I am just trying to improve Wikipedia's articles. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 10:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
You people are free to believe whatever you believe. But we are limited to reporting what the reliable sources say. So if you do not have any reliable sources that witness your supposed religious usage, I suggest you withdraw and leave this article in peace. Without RS, there is nothing you can achieve here. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 14:13, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
this is not a war cry ... its a mantra recited by hindus for spiritual purpose. why this bias towards hindus by Wikipedia Nemish1p ( talk) 00:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Larry Sanger: I hate to break it to you #Wikipedia fanbois: "consensus" is not possible on Wikipedia. It stopped being something that can be taken seriously, I'd say, in 2002. You really do need to develop a new and better way of deciding disputes; "consensus" is silly propaganda. Parlebourbon3 ( talk) 06:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
' Jai Shri Ram ' is not only hindi expression but also a nepali expression to praise the lord Ram. Should be edited. Nepal knowledge ( talk) 14:31, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Nepali and Hindi both are derived from Sanskrit language. So some word/phrase can be similar. Since Nepal and India are only (most probably) countries with hindu majority, and Nepali and Hindi are their national language respectivly, including Nepali and Hindi will be fine. Nepal knowledge ( talk) 16:40, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie , Why did you replace 'Hindu Chant' with 'Hindi expression' ? 'Jai shri Ram' is common saying among all hindus, but all hindus don't speak hindi. And also in reference, it is referred as 'Hindu Chant'. 'hindi expression' should be replaced with 'hindu chant'. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 08:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie, it seems you don't want to replace 'hindi expression'. The source is more than enough to replace 'hindi expression' with 'hindu chant'. And 'Jai Shri Ram'is not referred as 'hindi expression' in the source . As I previously mentioned, 'Jai Shri Ram' is common saying among all the hindus, but all hindus don't speak hindi. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 11:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
So articles related to this are rarely published. I will provide if I find any. Bhattarai1237 ( talk) 16:39, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I am contesting the claim sourced to Raksha Kumar's column in South China Morning Post. The article provides no evidence for the claim that "Jai Shri Ram" was "once a greeting" and contradicts multiple scholarly sources that say otherwise. We have no idea of the credentials of the author or the basis of her claims. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 08:23, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
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Please replace "war cry" in the lede with a more neutral term. War cry can also mean "a call made to rally soldiers for battle" according to Google’s dictionary. A more appropriate term could be "rallying call" as the phrase is also used by the BJP merely to rally voters to their cause, and also used to rally some nuts into committing crimes. 45.251.33.60 ( talk) 08:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Ram's name [was made into] the rallying cry of [the] movement [which] to worried British officials was a "war cry"(my emphases). Dorsetonian ( talk) 09:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
[The BJP] went on to use it as a war cry. That is us saying it was used by them as a war cry. Clearly it has not been, because they have never used it in war. At best, the original author used in an idiomatic sense, but an encyclopaedia requires scholarly precision - especially in the lead, and especially when it is clearly non-neutral. Dorsetonian ( talk) 10:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think "war cry" means it is used in war. The OED says:
A cry (whether a shout or a significant name or phrase) uttered by a body of fighters to encourage each other in charging the enemy or in rallying to the fray.
Cambridge English Dictionary says [8]:
a phrase or word shouted by people as they start to fight, intended to give them the strength and wish to fight harder.
-- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
SerChevalerie ( talk) 20:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)A call made to rally soldiers for battle or to gather together participants in a campaign.
I think it's the official host for Oxford Dictionaries, I remember seeing an old link of Oxford redirecting to lexico at History-sheeter. Will have to research. In any case, I believe the issues have been addressed here. SerChevalerie ( talk) 20:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
killing people in the name of Ram is wrong but why they generalize all Ram bhakts?? Ram bhakts don't use it as war cry
According to this generalization based logic, we can also say that Ola hu uber is a slogan used before killing kafirs Basu021 ( talk) 10:05, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
According to this generalization based logic, we can also say that Ola hu uber is a slogan used before killing kafirs....
All terrorist Group use allah hu akbar befor killing innocent peoples .. So accroding to your logic allah hu akbar is a terrorist slogan and linked with terrorism ?
Basu021 (
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"and went on to use it as a war cry, for perpetration of communal atrocities against people of other faiths" this is highly offensive to hindu faith. Please remove this. AjayROjha ( talk) 16:31, 3 August 2020 (UTC)