![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Why wasting our time about this .You can develope other pages so that everyone benefits.I think finally it is all "power" that decides about nations and their existance.Not logic or history or ... .Countries have been changed in size and shape throughout history,not by a group of people talking about it in the wikipedia!!! But by those who had the power and permission to decide about their own nation.What is your idea about this? let me know. 85.185.167.5 21:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)SMN
I am sorry for asking this question again, but it got bumped into the archives before anyone could respond: Why did the UN General Assembly have the authority to approve a partition plan without Arab approval? Shouldn't this information be included? SGW 19:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
One thing that confuses me about this article is the lack of explanation for reason the estimated 700,000 refugees left Israel if in fact "‘Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel" were offered "full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions". This migration seems to be quite unprecedented in modern times and cannot be explained adequately with the argument that "they thought the Arabs armies would destroy Israel". If that were the case why would the Palestinians not stay and wait for their liberation like most perceived occupied people do. I think that claims relating to Arabs being fearful of massacres similar to that of Deir Yassim must be addressed. Also many Palestinians Christian and Muslim, Arab and European have put forth the claim that, Israelis (settler or military) forced them out of their homes at this time without compensation. These claims must be addressed in a factual manner and not simply ignored. Since neither claim is mentioned in this article, it has bias that will remain unresolved until such questions are addressed. Bored college student 00:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that all these educated/unbiased people have never heard of the Arab Higher Committee, who sent out the message that "Arabs should move their wives and children to a place of safety until the fighting is over", after which they would "share the wealth of the Jews"? IOW, they were not expelled; they left of their own accord on a gamble that did not pay off, and those who enticed them to leave have ever since refused to take care of the problem they helped create (I can't log in yet - Wikipedia hasn't sent me a new password, and they keep telling me the one I'm using is wrong) 141.156.150.185 09:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Susan
I would just like to make it clear that the British empire never as such had Palestine as a type of colonial nation. it was given to Britain under after the first world war to establish peace, by the League of nations. The truth is that we British did have intrests in the area and we were not there soully for the purpose of keeping the peace, but that is why the League of nations put us there. Our control of Palestine was NOT for creating a state for the jews, this was only accepted by the U.N. around 1948 after numerous campaigns pre-war and after war by leaders such as Adolf Hitler (who of course did not care for Jewish welfare but wished the Jews to leave his country). Up until that point of around 1948 most of the Jews ariving in palestine were illegal immigrants, wishing for a safer home, which were only given permission to live in palestine because they were fast beginning to outnumber the arabs in some areas. After their legality was accepted zionist groups illegally (according to the U.N.) forced palestinians out of certain areas and eventually overtook part of Jerusalem (which is still considered illegal to this day). Im not saying the Jews didnt have a right to have a sanctuary, but the fact of the matter is that there was originally no outside campaigning for a state of Israel which would replace most of the Palestinians, although after the holocaust many nations felt it was unfair to prevent Jewish immigration to places such as Palestine where they could form large, protected, communities. Eventually the U.N. had to accept Israel as an independent nation, after we British left, because it was impractical to do anything otherwise, but there are still territories such as parts of Jerusalem which are illegally occupied. -S.M
User "RBWhite" has vandalized this page by changing the Israeli flag to the Nazi one. I've changed it back. Since I'm new here- what's the procedure on banning this guy? —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages-- Roy Frenkiel 11:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of vandalism, will an admin please enact semi-protection for this page? It's under constant attack, mostly by anons and new users. okedem 13:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Somebody wrote "Fuck Israel" and this needs to be fixed
I'm not an admin, but I don't think it's bad enough for protection. You can try WP:RfP though. · AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 13:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if there is a section devoted to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, much like the United States is occupying Native American land. And also if there is a section devoted to how present-day Israel is a pseudo-country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 ( talk • contribs)
Yeah, it's right up there with the articles on how France is and always shall be the property of the Roman Empire. You would be well advised to leave extremist points of view away from Wikipedia. Schrodingers Mongoose 02:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
How is that an extremist point of view? It's a valid point of view. Israel was established IN the land of Palestine. There's even a UN Resolution declaring Zionism as a form of racism, look it up if you don't believe me. I just want to get the facts straight so it doesn't seem like Israel is a country like the U.K., Germany, or Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 ( talk • contribs)
The great majority of UN resolutions on Israel have been very highly biased by the lobbying and pressure of certain states. That does not automatically make those resolutions based on false facts, but it doesn't legitimize them, either. The UN is created by humans, so it has human-like failings. The silence and inaction of the UN about the genocide in Darfur is a shining example of such failings. 91.153.144.149 22:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Remeber Israel is a tiny state, look at the size of the Arab world, I an glad to see the wikipedia using unbiased common sense.
--
EXCUSE me, how dare you even say such a thing "but I think you fall under the definition of "troll" i.e. you are just trying to get people angry".
According to the UN resolution, Israel was told to leave Palestinian land that they have occupied illegally, that is not a fib or a lie, it is a FACT. Secondly, name calling is so not appropriate, with power comes respect, something you haven't seemed to grasp as yet. Thirdly, I am absolutely in favour on a section which talks about the Occupation of Palestine, please do not deny it, i have bundles of sources and even news clips from various top new channels such as BBC, SKY NEWS about the resolution that Israel have denied to follow and repeatedly breach. Why is that other countries such as Iran, have been criticised for not following a UN resolution on its nuclear program, when Israel is ILLEGALLY occupying Palestine land and is also disregarding a UN resolution (is it, double-standards). I don't really feel biblical promises made to the Jews carry any weight in society today and therefore believe Israel has no reason for creating Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. The Israelis have migrated in thousands to Palestinian land.
I also feel that you saying "you are just trying to get people angry" is totally beyond idiotic, have you heard of something called Freedom of Speech, i am quite sure no one is really going to get angry from reading non-bias information on the topic. Yes, you may argue that if it contain bias information, it is wrong, but the truth should not be hindered! If the truth offends people or makes them angry i don't care, the truth is the truth and can be sour but everyone has a right to know. Without the truth how can you honestly get a fair opinion on anything!
This whole article has listed several facts about Israel in a good light, which are all true, however it lacks NPOV, and seems it is written by someone with an agenda, Please remember with the GOOD comes the BAD!!!
Coming to the point of the UN being bias! It may very well be bias but is there any mention of this, NO. If you start saying the UN is bias you are NOT giving the reader a NPOV, so the best thing to do is to point the facts, detach all your personal opinions, and people make their own minds up.
Israel have also had official complaints made against them about the treatment of Palestinian people, some of which can be called "War Crimes". Don't worry, i will write up the article very soon and provide very reliable sources which include elite professors in there respected fields along with top journalists from across the globe. I will hopefully expose the hidden truth, with adequate proof as i do not agree with of this one sided propaganda.
~~ STING
Is it not a discussion board? If i remember correctly i clicked on the "Discussion" tab to come to this page, and apart from "discussing" what am i doing wrong. I think this is the most fitting,page to make my comments (not complaints) to help improve this wiki for the benefit of the reader. I also do not have any "extremist complaints", there rational points, which do not include any "rants" of any sort. "Buddy" could you please read what i write carefully, i have not said one thing out of place. One other thing, i did not say this article had no NPOV, all the facts people have written are correct and i am not contesting them at all. But what i do want to see is a topic on the occupation of palestine, under a controveries heading and it here were i feel there is a one sided account given, as i said with the good comes the bad, which this article is not saying. Its funny how you call what i have written "extremist complaints", implying i must be an "extremist", very cowardly behaviour if i must say, you dont even know me. ~~STING
Do not use this page as a discussion forum. See talk page guidelines.
look at the sites!---STING 86.154.85.58 22:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Although STING is correct in his rant, it is still just a rant. Keep it on topic.
Hi, I just wanted to note, that for some reason, the map of Israel presented in the main article doesn't note that the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights are being occupied by Israel. I replaced it with a map that notes these facts. Jondr12 19:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you on that. The map you replaced it with is a 7Kb png file. If you click on it it doesn't get any bigger. I suggest making and svg file and have it shaded so that Israel proper, and the occupied territories are noted. Chikanamakalaka 01:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The map you're discussing is just meant to show Israel's location in the world. There is no need for shading of any disputed territory, and to avoid controversy it is best to just leave Israel's recognized territory in black. There's also no need for the file to be expandable to a large size given its limited purpose. There is a much larger map of the country with the disputed territories shaded in, located later in the article. Schrodingers Mongoose 18:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
It would seem to me that noting that there are disputed areas of a country within a map would fall within NPOV guidelines whereas not noting them could be viewed as POV.
jankyalias 12:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm still confused. The full-sized map of Israel half way down the page clearly shows the disputed territories and outlines their status. Why would we get fired upover a tiny map that exists solely to show where Israel is located? The mini-map does manage to indicate that the west bank is not part of Israel proper, which is really all that is reasonable at its size. Schrodingers Mongoose 00:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Joffeloff has requested a review of the reliability of "Minorities at Risk", source 32 on the page.
I've read the source, and agree with his remark. It contains numerous mistakes and half-truths:
This so-called source is extremely biased, and, in my view, should not be used. okedem 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Having looked over the source, as well as the discussion above, I strongly agree it should be removed. Its bias is clear. Schrodingers Mongoose 02:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the Falashas we are Jews too you know, 46% of Israelis dion't want us as neighbours, there must be some mention.
Bored college student 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)== Liberal Democracy (consolidated discussion) ==
(The following was previously under the "Minorities At Risk" discussion)
Arab-Israeli sociologist Sammy Smooha once acknowledged that “Israel is considered a western democracy by the Jewish elite, including the Zionist left, as well as by mainstream Israeli social scientists and western scholars…”, but he took issue with that description, instead describing Israel as an “ethnic democracy”. He writes: “Israel is a diminished ethnic democracy and not a liberal democracy because the state recognizes ethnic groups, and not just individuals. It is neither a liberal nor a multicultural democracy because it makes the Jews a core ethnic nation and the Arabs non-core outsiders. It imposes separation between Arabs and Jews through the law of religious marriages, making intermarriages infrequent and illegitimate (but recognizable by law). Israel lacks a national identity of its own that is shared by all of its citizens, and instead of treating all citizens equally, it privileges the Jews. The state is explicitly partial, serving as the homeland of all Jews in the world, not impartially catering to all its citizens regardless of ethnic origin.” [2] His work has since become mainstream in western academia and the view that Israel is an "ethnic democracy" is shared by academics like Ezra Kopelowitz, [3], Yoav Peled [4], Assad Ghanem [5], journalists like Jonathan Cook [6] and Ori Nir [7], and NGOs like MAR. Tiamut 13:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
So can we agree that simply stating "Israel is a democracy" is a neutral statement? If so, we should remove the "ethnic" or "liberal" democracy labels. Fugliesunited 18:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
What is unfair, the statement "Israel is a democracy" or the removal of the "ethnic" and "liberal" democracy language? Can you please tell me where to find Freedom House's conclusion that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy"? I read their report and could only find their ranking of Israel as "Free" (Israel 2006: Political Rights - Score 1, Civil Liberties - Score 2). I could not find any mention of "Liberal Democracy" in that report. Could you please confirm the attribution and tell me where I can verify it? Fugliesunited 06:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
This is silly and I'm sorry I even responded to this personal attack. Chabuk, you are free to think what you wish, but please stop distracting from the discussion here and let us focus on the true issues. If you have problems with me, feel free to report me to the WP authorities or leave something on my talk page.
Now to get back to the issue, it appears that the "Minorities At Risk" section has been completely removed from the article since I was here last. That is fine with me, but the references to "Liberal Democracy" need to be cleaned up also. I see people have already started doing. Hopefully we'll be able to strip out all contentious POV (both pro-Jewish and pro-Palestinian) and get this article to be more neutral than it currently is. Fugliesunited 08:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
(The following was previously under the "Contentious statement" discussion)
I wasn't fond of the inclusion of the phrase "liberal democracy" -- a nebulous and self-serving descriptor -- before this edit, but labelling Israel the "only democracy" in the "Middle East" is absurd and unacceptable.
Alyoshenka
06:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
In my view, the only mid-eastern country, besides Israel, that can lay claim to the title "Democracy", might be Lebanon. Egypt in a dictatorship, where the sole ruler is planning to transfer power to his son. Jordan is a monarchy, and completely unlike the UK. They don't pretend to be a democracy. The king holds the power. The PA is not a democracy, because it's not a country, only a somewhat autonomous region (barely). Lebanon comes closer, though it's community based government is hardly compatible with the meaning of Democracy.
Saying Egypt or Jordan are democracies is as ridicules as believing the DDR was a democracy, because its name said so. However, since this is a nebulous issue, I don't want the "only democracy" thing in the lead, also because some consider Turkey to be in the middle east, and it is a democracy. I support the previous title, "the only liberal democracy", as it truly differentiates between Israel and its neighbors. okedem 15:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
(The following was previously under the "Is it acceptable to use bogus sources in this article?" discussion)
Please have a look at
this edit. I deleted the sequence about Israel being the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. My reason for doing so is that the given source does not support the claim, and thus is a bogus. However, it has been reverted two times. As I have a hard time imagining anyone defending use of bogus sources I urge all to keep an eye on this. I am aware that the given viewpoint is widely held, and would not oppose it being included in the article, but then we need to find a verifiable source.
Bertilvidet
18:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
(Please continue discussion about "Liberal Democracy" here.)
The main article now describes Israel's democracy as a "Parliamentary Democracy". I agree with this designation. I believe this is a neutral way of describing Israel's governmental structure and avoid the problems with POV and neutrality. I feel that qualifying the democracy as "Liberal" or "Ethnic" or "the only Democracy" will only detract from the NPOV of this article.
Fugliesunited
23:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Tiamut, I will make this as quick, short, and simple as I can. "1) To me, the Freedom House source is disreputable and inaccurate." And my ask, who are you to consider them disreputable? Because they do not agree with what you believe? They do extensive, and i mean EXTENSIVE, I repeat: EXTENSIVE research annually, every year and publish a report measuring democracy and freedom every year. 2) There is no such thing as an "ethnic democracy". No such thing. Yes okay, you read about it. It means nothing. It is an unsubstanciated coined term that belongs in a poem. What about Azmi Bishara's acknowledgement of democracy? "Give us back Palestine and take your democracy with you..." They both essentially mean nothing, and by nothing I mean nothing at all whatsoever. You are adding a lot of opinion about Zionism, Israel, other things which is just plainly irrelevant and frankly WP:OR. Next, you say that they discredit Turkey as a democracy or say that Turkey is in the Middle East and Freedom House doesnt consider it as such. Lets look at this closely: 1) Turkey is considered in Western Europe as per FH probably due to its membership to the Western European and Others Group in the United Nations. Let's pretend that FH did include Turkey in the Middle East. If that were so, Israel would STILL be considered the only liberal democracy since Turkey is only an electoral democracy. Please (I said this a hundrend times already) read the difference. Now let's say Lebanon is in the picture. The fact that Lebanon has a parliament does not necessarily make them a) a parliamentary democracy, b) an electoral democracy, or c) a liberal democracy. According to Freedom House, which is what Wikipedia uses and is beyond reliable, Israel is the only liberal democracy. In order to make that a dispute, one would have to bring on another source that measures up to Freedom House, because as of now, a couple of articles written by a couple of journalists means nothing. It is Freedom House who accurately assesses what is freedom and what is democracy. -- Shamir1 23:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Also, Tiamut, review WP:Notability. I remind you to leave out personal opinion, WP:Original research as well as unreliable sources (including articles by journalists who are expressing their own opinion). If you are interested in what hinders Lebanon of its status as a true democracy, you can review its country report. What I strongly encourage you to do is to read Freedom House's overview, which gives a very decent explanation of what it all is and is not. It explains terminology and how/what is measured. -- Shamir1 00:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
To be clear - the Freedom House source never claims that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy." The Freedom House report only ranks "freedom" and scores Israel as 1 & 2 (out of 7) for political freedom and civil liberties respectively. Nowhere in the report does Freedom house use the term "Liberal Democracy." Those are the facts. Some people here are interpreting the report to mean that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy," but this is a conclusion not explicitly supported by the source. In addition, the description "Liberal Democracy" is obviously contentious in light of the many objections that have been raised.
So to the point: Is "Parliamentary Democracy" a sufficiently neutral description or not? Please answer this question. Remember, we are trying to achieve neutrality here. We should avoid terminology and language that is contentious or raises questions about POV. Fugliesunited 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
You have not done enough research. Please read here and here. They say that Israel is the only 'Free' country, which means per their methodology a liberal democracy. A country rated as free denotes that it is a liberal democracy. Not only is Israel the only the only free country in the represented region, but no other country is even an electoral democracy. That is pointed out explicitly. They write that Israel is the *only* one to be "Free", and as well as the *only* electoral democracy. According to them this is what 'Free' means: "In the survey, all Free countries qualify as both electoral and liberal democracies." And yes, neutrality. Because one user does not like it does not make it untrue that Freedom House has surveyed the world. And even if the "ethnic democracy" shananigans was actually taken seriously, there is nothing to say that an "ethnic democracy" cannot be a liberal democracy, one does not necessarily cancel the other out. Please be real. -- Shamir1 07:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all I have no problem with the claim that Israel, excluding the West Bank and Gaza, is a liberal democracy by most standards. However, I am not sure whether or not it is the only liberal democracy and was wondering if someone could clarify a few questions I have relating to liberal democracy. First are liberal democracies exclusively Free countries on the Freedom house web site or are there some countries that are listed as partly free that meet the liberal democracy criteria. The reason I ask is because Lebanon, according to freedom house has a parlementary government that ever since the end of the Syrian occupation has managed resonably fair elections. Aside from foreign interloping, keeping Lebanon from free status is corruption, gerrymandering and disproportionate representation. All of which, exist, albeit on a smaller scale, in the United States, as was made obvious with the Jack Abramoff scandal, the Texas redistriction controversy and the fact that dispite African Americans make up roughly 12.9% of the population according to the US census they hold only 1% of seats in the Senate and 9% of US congressial seats. Is there a threshold at which these problems make a country not a liberal democracy? The reason I think this is relavent is because many have claimed that Israel is the only Liberal electoral democracy in the Middle East and I'm not sure whether that is true or not. I do not want to argue one way or the other I would just like some clarification on this point. Thanks Bored college student 18:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think I can answer your questions.
If this issue should ever come about again, take this into account. One may assume that those who would most aggressively criticize Israel as a democracy would be the Palestinian Arabs. A
Ramallah based
think tank found that Palestinians consistently rate Israel's democracy more positively than any other given nation, rating it even higher than the United States and France.
[8] --
Shamir1
05:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your clarification I appreciate it. One tiny thing though Turkey is the only Middle Eastern Muslim nation to have an electoral democracy but Indonesia, Mali and Senegal are non-Middle Eastern Muslim nations that meet that criteria but this is just me being OCD. Again I really do appreciate your explanation. Thanks Bored college student 18:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion I noticed people claiming that lebanon is not a 'true' democracy because it is ruled partially by quota of memebers of different ethnic groups. The point I have to say on this is that this is the case in most democracies (or what like to be termed as) such as my country, the U.K., there is a system of choosing those from ethnic groups (somewhat disregarding qualifications in a few cases) so as to fufill government quotas for asians or blacks to be employed in certain jobs (increasingly this is case with employment into the political system). This does not mean we are not a democracy, mearly that we are choosing to favour those who were in the past unfavoured. It is somewhat unfair, but on the other hand acts as a type of power compensation. This is much more prominent in Lebanon where the ethnic groups are each strictly represented by numbers, but the same idea could be used to be carried here, the fact that each group is proportionally represented means that each minority (and the people in it) really do have a democracy, in quite a fair form. The problem with this is, is that when the groups disagree things rarely happen and power of the government is often limited, however in a true democracy this is a way should be the case (although it is not what Lebanon needs). The government must be very carefull not to unbalance one group and let a war form, and as the groups often disagree the power of individual people over what happens is often limited, but this is a sense is a better example of democracy, where everyone is fairly represented, than Israel which may not be deemed a democracy because practically 20% of the population (as well as some disliked jewish groups) are not represented. What I trully intend to say is that a democracy is a country where people can elect their leader, and be fairly rperesented in a parlimentary system, lebanon fufills these perammeters, Israel does not, therfore it is not right for someone to write like Israel is a bastion of democratic hope in a dark undemocratic middle east.-R.A .
Sorry for posting in the wrong area, im kind of new to actually posting comments and I clicked on the wrong edit. Anyway Okedem what you wrote about my comment being misleading is correct, I should have specified what I meant, I was quite vague. I know the representation in lebanon is not perfectly proportional or perfectly fair (I was just generalising, which I admit is not a good thing to do when commenting on circumstances like these), and I criticised the weakness of the government myself. However, although the representation of the minorities is not always great it would be a lie to say that Lebanon was not a liberal democracy in the sense that is argued in favour of Israel here. I'm not arguing for democracy, in many cases it is weak, and often does not work (e.g. Iraq) it cannot be imposed, a country must want to have democracy, this is the problem with Lebanon, many of the groups in it wish only for their leadership to come out on top. Ultimately, however, all the groups in Lebanon ARE represented in one way or another (possibly not completly preportional, but none are ignored) and its not like the christians can afford to take no notice of groups such as Hezbollah, lest another civil war occur. The government has to keep a delicate balancing with all of the groups, and this ultimately involves listening to what they are saying. Sure the government feels the country's policy should be ruled by statisic percentages of every faction, but ultimately it is a democracy because everyone in the country IS fairly represented and can vote, it is a coalition, it may not be a good democracy but this does not mean it is not liberal. You gave me examples of arab parties in Israel and one arab government minister (trophy employee?). This does nto mean that the arab people are fairly represented, any arab party that adresses the fact that there was once a country full of now displaced people underneath Israel is immediately labeled extremist before they open their mouths. As long as the arabs toe the line they are allowed some representation in an area of land that was originally theirs. Im not saying Israel is illegitimate or ligitimate, I'm saying its here and that issuues should not be hidden but confronted. The fact is only arab parties that accept Israelm and Israeli doctrine are allowed to represent their people, which effectively take away the little power they were expected to have. Basically the democracy in Israel consists of Israeli parties, and arab parties which cannot negotiate anything meaningful for themselves, its a democracy for the arabs as long as they dont disagree with the government, which means it isnt a democracy, for them at least. My point is that Lebanon is a liberal democracy but its kind of in tatters, it dosent make it any less of a democracy, everyone can vote for the parties that represent them, all which have considerable clout, in Israel the arab parties are basically neutered. And anyway, at the end of the day does being a democracy make it a civilised and good country? No? then why is its democracy and other elements stemming from it mentioned in this article as if it makes Israel the best country in the middle east.-R.A
I have a slight problem with the "Palestine was never a Country" Argument I am going to take a leap of faith here and assume by country you mean "Nation-State” With a few exceptions in North America, Western Europe and East Asia there were no Countries/Nation-States 200 years ago most areas of the were Controlled/inhabited either Traditional Empires, Colonial Empires, City states or Stateless Societies. Nation-states are a relatively new Phenomena however they usually reflect the peoples that lived there in times before the organization of such Nation States Israel is an exception to this (I know 2000 years ago Judea existed, as a Roman Provence similar to Palestine as an Ottoman one, but most of the world is not inhabited by the people that lived there 2000 years ago, otherwise we would see a lot more Celts, Grecians, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Assyrians, Harrapins, Ainu, Native Americans, Goths, Non-Bantu Equatorial Africans and Aborigines.) With this said possession is 9/10 of the law, Israel is there, and creating other fanciful historical excuses really is not necessary. Heck most American schools and colleges I know of teach that we took Native American land through wars and chicanery. That’s the way the world works, like it or not, and the reason why there are so few peoples from 2000 years ago still around but I digress. How this arugment showed up on a page about liberal democracy is really confusing though. Bored college student 21:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I did read that and what I am trying to say is that the arguments you and he use are using are both incomplete. First while Palestine never was a Nation-state the Palestinians are a nation, because Palestinians are distinct from other peoples in the region, such as the Turks, Lebanese and Syrians. Second it is well documented in the Wikipedia article and from other sources that 700,000 est. Palestinians were displaced during the 1948 war. This is the "country" full of displaced people he is talking about and while it is not a "country" that does not mean there are not displaced people. Bored college student 23:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
"So I'm making this clear - no country here, since the Jews." is exactly the reason I said I do not buy the "Palestine was never a country argument”. While technically correct it is misleading. Until 1945 India was never a country either, and until 1860 there was no country of Italy. Just because there was no country does not mean there was nothing there the mythical "land without a people". Palestine existed as much in the same way Italy and India did prior to the establishment of nation states which is to say there were Indians, and Italians but they lived under various Empires and fiefdoms and did not just poof into existence on the establishment of their states. You make it seem like the Jews left after the Roman reprisals of 70 AD the land went dormant and they came back in the 20th century. THAT is misleading the fact of what happened (without getting into details) is there were Palestinians, and a Jewish minority, then there was the 1948 war in which the Israelis were victorious and the Palestinians were displaced. (Not going to argue the reasons on this one) Victorious Israel would not let the Palestinians back and re-settled the former Palestinian owned lands with Jewish immigrants. My main argument here is that yes there was no Country of Palestine, however, there was an a Palestinian entity in the area in various non-nation state forms, such as an imperial province, mandates and governorates, and that simply claiming that there was "no country here, since the Jews" without acknowledging Palestinian habitation may be technically correct, but it is highly misleading and fails to recognize the not nation-state entities that existed prior to the Establishment of Israel in which the Palestinian people resided. Bored college student 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, why do we not mention in the lead that the status of Israel's capital is actually disputed? [9] [10] Thanks. Yas121 17:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, as far as I know, no other country recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Tel Aviv is the internationally recognized capital. Note: I may be wrong and so begin the hunt for sources.
Jankyalias
12:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how what a country's capital is is an issue for other countries to recognize. It is a matter of a) self-declaration; and b) actual location of government. By both those criteria the capital is at Jerusalem. john k 15:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you think it would be a fair compromise to word it as "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and de facto capital"? Cigrainger 09:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
But isn't the fact that most nations have their embassies in Tel Aviv in itself a noteworthy point, worthy of a mention in the article?
Epeeist smudge
13:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to say that the connection between capitol and seat of goverment is quite arbitrary. It's not a given. Point in fact: the capitol of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, while its seat of government is in the Hague. And nobody disputes Amsterdam's status as capitol for this reason, or any other reason for that matter. Vodyanoi 09:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I question the NPOV of this statement:
Some Israeli historians suggest that the Palestinians fled because of orders from Arab generals. Many Palestinians left under the belief that the Arab armies would prevail and they would return.[16]
Besides being rather biased, the source for this doesn't appear to be particularly credible. It cites a NY Post article from 1948 written by "Observer". Reading this apparent primary source clearly shows that the source itself is biased. Also, the article is from the Immanuel Velikovsky website, which in itself should raise some questions about neutrality (IV is not known for his neutral and objective stance). Fugliesunited 07:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
“This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks
before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.”
I m dude2002 19:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The implications here seem a bit problematic. Palestinians left the war zone, certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if they generally believed that the Arab armies would be victorious and they would be able to return. But is there any reason to think that they didn't think they would also be able to return in the instance that the Arab armies were defeated? The implication of putting it this way is that, by leaving the scene of an ongoing war, these civilians were somehow active partisans, and thus deserved what they got (dispossession). The claim that they left because Arab generals ordered them to makes this implication even worse. On the whole, I'd say that this article is an overview. It is not an article on the 1948 War, or even one on the history of Israel. The exact motivations of the flight of Arab civilians is not really appropriate to this article, as any brief statement is likely to tend more towards one side or the other. I'd prefer to just mention that Arab civilians fled during the war, without getting into motivations. john k 15:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's get back to my original issue with this section. I am question its NPOV. I think john k has got it correct: debating the motivations for fleeing the land does not lend to the NPOV of this article. Why are debating the reasons for Arabs fleeing in an article about Israel? Would it not be sufficient to just state the fact that Arabs fled the region? Adding additional commentary about the motives only detracts from the NPOV of this article ... which I believe is sorely lacking. Fugliesunited 22:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Fugliesunited and John K. my original reason for disputing the NPOV of this article was the reason given for the Palestinian flight from Israel. Bored college student 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I just wonder if there is any way to say this without implying that arabs fled for good reasons, or vice versa. I think if one tried to write it without the two very different versions of why the exodus occured, it will come out sounding biased even if it doesn't mean to be. But by all means give it a shot. Schrodingers Mongoose 00:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I've updated the 1948 War section to remove statements about Arab and Jewish motivations for fleeing. This is the revised section on the migrations:
Large numbers of the Arab population fled the newly-created Jewish State during the Palestinian exodus, which is referred to by many Palestinian groups and individuals as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة ), meaning "disaster" or "cataclysm". Estimates of the final Palestinian refugee count range from 400,000 to 900,000 with the official United Nations count at 711,000.[23] The unresolved conflict between Israel and the Arab world that persists to this day has resulted in a lasting displacement of Palestinians refugees.
In addition, the entire Jewish population of the West Bank and Gaza Strip also fled to Israel. Within a year of 1948 war, immigration of Jewish refugees from Arab lands doubled Israel's population. Over the following years approximately 850,000 Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews fled or were expelled from surrounding Arab countries. Of these, about 600,000 settled in Israel; the remainder went to Europe and the Americas (see Jewish exodus from Arab lands).
Please discuss if you feel this is not sufficiently neutral. Thanks. Fugliesunited 07:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion I noticed people claiming that lebanon is not a 'true' democracy because it is ruled partially by quota of memebers of different ethnic groups. The point I have to say on this is that this is the case in most democracies (or what like to be termed as) such as my country, the U.K., there is a system of choosing those from ethnic groups (somewhat disregarding qualifications in a few cases) so as to fufill government quotas for asians or blacks to be employed in certain jobs (increasingly this is case with employment into the political system). This does not mean we are not a democracy, mearly that we are choosing to favour those who were in the past unfavoured. It is somewhat unfair, but on the other hand acts as a type of power compensation. This is much more prominent in Lebanon where the ethnic groups are each strictly represented by numbers, but the same idea could be used to be carried here, the fact that each group is proportionally represented means that each minority (and the people in it) really do have a democracy, in quite a fair form. The problem with this is, is that when the groups disagree things rarely happen and power of the government is often limited, however in a true democracy this is a way should be the case (although it is not what Lebanon needs). The government must be very carefull not to unbalance one group and let a war form, and as the groups often disagree the power of individual people over what happens is often limited, but this is a sense is a better example of democracy, where everyone is fairly represented, than Israel which may not be deemed a democracy because practically 20% of the population (as well as some disliked jewish groups) are not represented. What I trully intend to say is that a democracy is a country where people can elect their leader, and be fairly rperesented in a parlimentary system, lebanon fufills these perammeters, Israel does not, therfore it is not right for someone to write like Israel is a bastion of democratic hope in a dark undemocratic middle east.
I have failed this article as a GA per lack of references and in-line citations. While there are many sections that do really well at this, there are still quite a lot of places where non-trivial information or statistics is stated without citations. I would have guessed that some of these would have references on the {{ main}} pages corresponding to the sections, but I have checked a couple (for example the Music section) and this is not entirely true. Quite a lot of {{ fact}} statements sticking out as well. I have not spotted any other problems.-- Konstable 02:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I am putting this in the wrong place...I don't really know how to use the website. Under the religion section, it says that most people are Jews, and that the second largest religious group is "Arabs." "Arabs" is not a religion, and there are Arab people who are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.
Acting President is not a title, it is a temporary function. Dalia Itzik did not attain a new title when Katzav took a leave of absence. Now it appears Dalia Itzik is out of the country, so the infobox says Majalli Wahabi is the acting president. Next, Wahabi will sneeze, and someone else will be acting president for a few seconds! Itzik's title is still the speaker of the knesset, and that should be her title in the infobox. Wahabi did not get a new title when Dalia Itzik boarded the airplane, he's still just a deputy speaker. I think the infobox should reflect positions, not temporary functions.-- Doron 08:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The article gives "the total area under Israeli control, including the military-controlled and Palestinian-governed territory of the West Bank" but not the population. I will put in the corresponding demographic info. Fourtildas 06:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The area figure in the infobox includes the Golan Heights, altough they are not recognized as part of Israel by the international community. Even from the Israeli point of view it is not clear they should be included, indeed Israel did not formally annex the Golan Heights. The Golan Law carefully avoided implications regarding annexation or sovereignty, and Begin's comments on the issue at the time indicate that this was intentional. Therefore including the Golan Heights as part of the area of Israel is controversial, to say the least.-- Doron 09:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Lately, there were a couple of attempts (like this one) to replace the newer map with an older and unintelligible one. I don't understand what is the deal here exactly, but if the newer one contains an error, it needs to be corrected. The old one is so much worse, it's a non-starter. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 06:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
If you know the people on this page it has to be the Kosovo ;-).-- Stone 10:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been reverting these map changes since they started. No one has given any reasonable explanation why the map should be changed to the less clear, inaccurate png version. If there is an error in the good verion I can't make it out, but the other one doesn't even look like Israel. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The West Bank / Gaza are disputed - could we have a map which somehow highlights that rather than the current one which makes it appear that Palestine is a sovereign country rather than an area which is still rightly or wrongly an area under Israeli juristiction. Maybe the disputed territories in a different colour with a note below explaining their status?
The previous map was a bit too small to make out anything 172.189.33.31 13:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure everybody knows the history of the Hebrew. The Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered and its people disappeared over time but the Southern Kingdom of Judah and its people were displaced but remained together til this day. So here's my question. Why is the present-day Jewish state called "Israel" when the people are clearly the descendants of Judah? Wouldn't calling the state Judah be more correct?-- Secret Agent Man 18:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This is minor, but I think worthwhile. That picture of "infected mushroom" is very bad and unnecessary. How about removing it? The other picture is enough for the small section. The Behnam 01:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The "infected mushroom" picture seems very out of place in an article about Israel.
Fugliesunited
01:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
''''The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv.
To suggest that it is Jerusalem is factually incorrect, indicative of zionist extremism, and blatantly racist.
The classification of Jerusalem as Israel's capital city is contrary to world opinion (except of course Israel and America..thanks AIPAC!), and contrary to countless UN resolutions.
It is wholly irresponsible, and unacademic for the administrators of wikpedia, to allow this so called fact to be presented.
So long as you allow zionist extremism and blatant racism to go unchallenged, wikipedia will never be accepted by mainstream academic circles as anything but garbage.' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.224.190.3 ( talk) 03:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
If you believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel,then by that logic, the US would be able to delcare Baghdad as our capital since we currently occupy it. No nation in the world has ever recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Even the US refuses to fully support the idea of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital. The city of Jerusalem is nothing more than a militarily occupied foreign city that Israel wants as its capital, regardless of whether or not the city is part of Israel, which according to international law it is not. There is no academic nor international body anywhere (except in Israel) that accepts the Israeli declaration of Jerusalem as their capital.
Then how would you describe a city and a territory that was taken over by a group of people from Europe who themselves committed acts of terrorism against the original inhabitants as well as against the British forces who were there at the time? If you dont consider taking territory by force at the end of a gun to be a military or terrorist action, the what do you call it? i'd be very interested in knowing how you define that. Also, the use of pogroms to get the inhabitants out or just killing them off when they tried to fight back were also tactics used at the time. How do you categorize that? I really am curious, as it seems, by your reasoning, it would be perfectly valid if Jordan invaded, set-up shop and then declared Jersualem its capital (or any other country for that matter). And just for the record, I am not a Jew, Christian, nor a Muslim, and your suggestion to study history is ridiculous. i hold a post graduate degree from a flagship university in the US. as part of the program, it was required that we study international relations, culture and history extensively, as well as attain some level of fluency in at least one foreign language in order to study sources in languages other than English (I speak 3 fluently and 2 others on a basic level, so i have been able to gather information from a very wide variety of sources). I include this basic bio only because of your personal attack directed at me and not at my views on the topic. Again, i would find it enlightening to read how you define a territory that was taken-over in the manner that Israel and Jersualem were. If it doesnt come under a category of military action, then the other alternative seems to be a territory held by force by a non-national paramilitary organization, or something to that effect. Please, I invite you to enlighten us.
Iside this article there have been numerous people (from looking at other articles in this talk page generally pro-jewish Israeli) who ahev said things along the lines of what that Okedem guy said 'obviously you have no idea what a capital city is' but please can one of you actually define what a captital city is? Or is it undefinable because it is what anyone thinks it is? Please can one of you define for me why your so right, and tell me exactly what makes a capital a capital.
The section "The world's perception" was removed for the following reasons:
-- Shamir1 18:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Population counts in large cities are totally wrong:
"As of 2006, The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics defines three metropolitan areas: Tel Aviv (population 3,040,400), Haifa (population 996,000) and Beersheba (population 531,600)[6]. The capital, Jerusalem, has a population of 719,900. The Jerusalem Institute of Israel Studies defines the metropolitan area Jerusalem (population 2,300,000, including 700,000 Jews and 1,600,000 Arabs)[7]."
The right figures would be
Jerusalim 720,000 Tel-aviv - 378,000 Haifa - 267,000
from http://www1.cbs.gov.il/webgis/website/yishuvim/yishuvim_2005/XLS/bycode.xls —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.145.105 ( talk) 00:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC).
The BBC says:
According to Haaretz, Ehud Olmert said it was decided at least four months before that any kidnap of Israeli troops on its border would trigger war.
On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers sparking an all-out assault by Israel's military.
Mr Olmert reportedly made the claim to an inquiry last month.
The Winograd Commission is an Israeli government-appointed commission tasked with investigating last summer's conflict with Lebanon and identifying lessons to be learned from it.
It is expected to release its interim report this month.
I am a new user so I can't edit this page, but I think someone should add at the end of the last paragraph in the history of the 2000's something along the lines of "It has recently come to light that the strategy used in this war was planned months in advance." Use [13] as the source.
Cigrainger 09:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Hizballah (the "Party of God", not "Hezbollah") shelled Israeli territory after the Israelis committed human rights atrocities in Gaza (as stated by the UN) such as cutting off energy and water to civilians after an Israeli soldier was taken hostage by the terrorist group Hamas. I'm not saying the shelling was acceptable by any means, but the destruction of Beirut was an unnecessary act of violence on the civilians and nation of Lebanon (which achieved no inroads on destroying Hizballah, only killing over 1000 civilians), and was a continuation of the decades-long history of such. Having plans to decimate much of the capital city of a country with whom you at peace, based on the actions of a militant extremist terrorist group, is a decidedly "special" revelation. Cigrainger 13:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to note that the Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organizations as recognized by the British government. Failure to do so is quite hypocritical if we are to recognize groups such as the early PLO as terrorist organizations (which I do). I'm honestly not trying to be biased or hate-mongering -- if we look at what a terrorist organization is, the Irgun and Lehi fall under those terms. Bombing buildings, killing innocents, et al for political gain are certainly acts of political terrorism.
"Who Are the Terrorists?", Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 1. (Autumn, 1979), pp. 154-160. [14]
Cigrainger 09:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it really appropriate to say that Israel is "considered to be the most advanced in ... overall human development" in the opening of the article? Is "overall human development" defined? I'd say that there are quite a few people around the world who might argue that the country's policies place it squarely last in the region. I think it's fair to say that Israeli law squarely rejects the idea of equality among men and universal human rights (a concept accepted by the UN and member nations since the signing of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights) - something I would say is a cornerstone of "overall human development". I'd be interested to hear an intelligent debate on the wisdom of using this type of language or subjective reasoning in this article. Welrifai 03:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Wael - 11 March, 2007
"most advanced" - I thought some woman was going to court so she didn't have to sit in the back of the bus. Boy have they kept that piece of news off the front page in the US.
159.105.80.63
17:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No, NO woman is "going to court so she doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus". She is suing some men for hitting her a PRIVATE bus where she DELIBERATELY provoked them by sitting in the men's section, rather than the women's. It was a religious bus where all the occupants agree to being segregated so the men don't ogle the women. The ONLY reason the women's section is in the back is because the seats on the bus face forward, NOT because "women are 2nd class citizens". If the seats faced the back, the men would be sitting in the back. 141.156.150.185 10:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Susan
"Starting around the eleventh century BCE, the first of a series of Jewish kingdoms and states established intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millennium.[16]"
When I check out link [16] it looks like a country calling itself Israel gets established about 1100 BCE, and then survives until about 600 BCE and then gets stomped on, and never reappears until 1948. So in what sense does a Jewish kingdom/state rule over the region for a millenium? I also looked at History of ancient Israel and Judah and it doesn't seem to mention anything. WolfKeeper 09:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I could certainly buy Jewish people living there for well over a thousand years, but it doesn't look at the moment to me like they were self-ruling. Shouldn't this read "lasted more than 500 years"? Is there a cite anywhere explaining? WolfKeeper 09:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There's also a little state called Judaea. It was independent from about 160 BC to 6 AD, and again from 41-44 (although it was a Roman client after 63 BC). In the intermittent period, under the Persians, Ptolemies, and Seleucids, the Jews largely ruled themselves through their high priest, although they didn't have political independence, so I wouldn't describe it as rule. But certainly the Hasmoneans and the Herods were real "rulers" of the region. john k 15:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
Israel did not 'start fending for itself' and never has. It has always relied 100% on UN and US support. The agreement was, just have our tanks, don't buy Soviet or Chinese. The money just never stopped rolling in for Israel.
Where is the US on this. I guess Israel managed to acquire billions and billions of dollars by magic. What a blatantly self-serving article. I'm not a Nazi pig or whatever but this belongs on some pro-israel nutter site, not on Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irocktoomuch ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
If it is worth mentioning US financial and military support of Israel, then it is worth mentioning USSR's financial and military support of Egypt and Syria, which directly led to the October (Yom Kippur) War. This war also saw French arms being used against Israel through Egypt (via Algeria), as well as Iraq being equipped by the USSR. Or how about Saudi Arabia's financial support of Syria and Egypt to the tune of 1 billion dollars to support their military aggression against Israel? Yet you are only concerned about the US support of Israel? M000558 16:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel is not an English-speaking country. No more than any other country in the world. Reluctantly I can live with "Russian-speaking", but not English-speaking.-- Doron 01:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
According to a current Washington Post article "The Israeli government is arguing in domestic courts that it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip" and "In February, Israel opened a $35 million terminal at the Erez crossing on the Gaza border, where travelers now receive Israeli exit and entry stamps in their passports." So, unless someone thinks the WaPo could be in error, I will add the border with Gaza to the first paragraph. Fourtildas 02:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've made a small deletion to the "Human Rights" section, but given the contentious naure of this article wanted to provide a brief explanation. The criticisms of AI and HRW are cited, and then there are two inter-wiki links to accussed anti-Israeli bias in these organizations, the first of which (to AI) goes to a section that no longer exists. I feel this would be justified under certain circumstances, but cannot given the frequent citations to Freedom House in the paragraph that follows. It is not that I seek to discredit Freedom House, but I did note that on the Freedom House page there is an allegation of neo-conservative bias (which is strongly pro-Israel). I feel that the AI and HRW accusations against Israel in this section are balanced out by the favorable reviews Israel is given by Freedom House. Thus, if accusations of bias are to be referenced, they should be referenced to all the organizations mentioned or none at all. In other words, "AI and HRW have been accused of being anti-Israel" as well as "FH has been accussed of a neo-con bias." Frankly, I think neither are necessary. I think both sides are accurately represented and thus the assertions should speak for themselves.
On a side note, I am a student of foreign affairs but admitedly Israel and the Middle East are not one my areas of expertise. But I would like to submit for you to consider, from a neutral outsider's perspective, that this article at points seems highly defensive of Israel. I can understand the need to be so, given that this article and similar ones are probably a constant source of anti-Israeli vandalism. Again, Israel and the Middle East are not my areas of expertise, but I'm educated enough to know about the contentious nature of the topic. Not being an expert I don't intend to edit this article much, but I would like you to consider that POV in any instance can work against the author's intended effect. I think you can trust intelligent readers to draw impartial and accurate conclusions.
Best, SpiderMMB 21:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please contribute to the discussion at Template talk:Israel-InfoBox regarding whether or not the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem should be considered part of Israel for the purpose of determining Israel's area.-- Doron 10:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
i suggest changing the section were the article states that Palestinians "fled" in the 1948 war of independence to a less biased expression "fled or were forced out of their homes", since this issue is disputed.-- 213.6.44.241 13:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be replaced with this image. The reasons are that it has more contrast, no power lines, higher resolution, and shows the actual diamong exchange complex and not nearby unrelated towers. Any thoughts? -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 13:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC) I have just found out that the Hebrew wiki has the same image with a higher resolution. However, the licensing is still GFDL, the image I am proposing was made by mean and it is PD-self. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 13:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Just in case I leave before anyone replies, I have uploaded the image to commons at Image:Bursa05.jpg. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 09:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of photos like these: http://www.pbase.com/gilazouri/telaviv . Such photos are a beautiful view of Tel Aviv's modern world. For example, the ones halfway down the page with the University railway station on the foreground. -- Bear and Dragon 13:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the history section is too detailed and long for this article - the detailed history should be at History of Israel, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries says that history should be "A brief outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs should do), including at least a paragraph on the current events going on there. Link to "History of X"."...was looking at this and it will be hard to do but I think we should do it. I didn't want to delete stuff from this article because there are gaps in the history of Israel article-for example, Herzl isn't mentionned at all. Flymeoutofhere 17:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- In the "History" part, some lines seems to be blank. Is it a tamplate problem or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Viclick ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Israel really need better P.R . The ancient history of Israel is only briefly introduced even though it have a lot to do with the Israeli Jewish people at present, and more important -due the ancient Jewish history at Israel, the population overtaken major achievements , comparing with many other nations of that time, almost at any possible field : Science , Architecture ,Industry ,Military thought (i.e. Guerilla war against modern army which the Mccabees were between the first to use ) , Religious , Establishment and etc .especially when the Jews had their own autonomy , before the Roman occupation ruined every thing. More, the Israeli Hi-Tech achievements , which are phenomenal at any scale , are only shortly mentioned and with no getting into details and nor do the military industries, which are of importance, are (a project like the " Lavi" can tell ones a lot about the country) .Sport achievements are mentioned while they are actually negligible and not impressive one's .Facts like that Israel is the second most advanced country relatively to its age, although the wars it had , and although lack of naturl resources and the very complex reality of life in Israel , under consistent threats and total corruption of the political establishment, is not mentioned nor do the fact that the Israeli GNP is within the 30 world highest in spite of all the difficulties .There are many good examples for what should be include at that article -like that with a 1/20 of investment the engineering faculty of the "Technion" is ranking as the first in the world aside to M.I.T faculty, and that all of Israel 6 universities (serving more than 100,000 students together) are at the world top 500. The impression that the average American/European and etc have , is that Israel is actually a place in which people 'driving' to work riding on a camel.-- Gilisa 15:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree these should be noted to all, but this is an encyclopedia, how much can we put an emphasis on "good" and neglect the rest of the information? I know you're right and I know the importance of the common belief outside of Israel about Israel, but really, can we do that? 84.108.149.70 17:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
We can find space for doing so if we delete the less successful sections...-- Gilisa 16:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to link Israel to the ethnostate article. Would people who have worked on the Israel article more than I have please do this. -- Twoheel 16:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The information regarding Eichmann is not correct and should be fixed or removed. See Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 ( talk) 10:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
I was wondering why the writer of the article ignored a very important fact in Arab-Israeli history that is Al Karamah war in which the Jordanian Royal army succefully fought, stopped and fully destroyed the invading Israeli armies. I think that articles must not be biost as the one you proudly show, as it has many miconceptions and many missing facts that change the view of the reader and makes him get history in an unproper manner. If I may ask the people in charge of these articles (the publisher) to please fully check each article before it is published in order to save time, trouble, and to reveal History as it's supposed to be shown.
Regards, A Proud Jordanian Citizen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 ( talk) 10:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
With a quick glance over the article I noticed that you need to make sure to quickly add citations or remove the statements that have "citation needed" after them. This may cause the article to be quick-failed. Look over the GA criteria to make sure anything else needs to be fixed. Also, as a heads up, it looks like the coat of arms image is up for deletion, so the editors here may want to weigh in on its discussion. Image:Idf logo4.jpg and Image:Itzhak perlman.jpg also need fair use rationales. These are just some things I noticed that need to be fixed, so please do fix them so that the article is not immediately failed. Good work so far and good luck with GAC. -- Nehrams2020 19:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe this was vandalized, there are "pigs" in the infobox. -- Scorpion prinz ( Talk | contribs) 07:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the history section is too large for two reasons:
Please comment - I am happy to work on making it more concise.-- Flymeoutofhere 17:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Why wasting our time about this .You can develope other pages so that everyone benefits.I think finally it is all "power" that decides about nations and their existance.Not logic or history or ... .Countries have been changed in size and shape throughout history,not by a group of people talking about it in the wikipedia!!! But by those who had the power and permission to decide about their own nation.What is your idea about this? let me know. 85.185.167.5 21:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)SMN
I am sorry for asking this question again, but it got bumped into the archives before anyone could respond: Why did the UN General Assembly have the authority to approve a partition plan without Arab approval? Shouldn't this information be included? SGW 19:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
One thing that confuses me about this article is the lack of explanation for reason the estimated 700,000 refugees left Israel if in fact "‘Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel" were offered "full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions". This migration seems to be quite unprecedented in modern times and cannot be explained adequately with the argument that "they thought the Arabs armies would destroy Israel". If that were the case why would the Palestinians not stay and wait for their liberation like most perceived occupied people do. I think that claims relating to Arabs being fearful of massacres similar to that of Deir Yassim must be addressed. Also many Palestinians Christian and Muslim, Arab and European have put forth the claim that, Israelis (settler or military) forced them out of their homes at this time without compensation. These claims must be addressed in a factual manner and not simply ignored. Since neither claim is mentioned in this article, it has bias that will remain unresolved until such questions are addressed. Bored college student 00:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that all these educated/unbiased people have never heard of the Arab Higher Committee, who sent out the message that "Arabs should move their wives and children to a place of safety until the fighting is over", after which they would "share the wealth of the Jews"? IOW, they were not expelled; they left of their own accord on a gamble that did not pay off, and those who enticed them to leave have ever since refused to take care of the problem they helped create (I can't log in yet - Wikipedia hasn't sent me a new password, and they keep telling me the one I'm using is wrong) 141.156.150.185 09:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Susan
I would just like to make it clear that the British empire never as such had Palestine as a type of colonial nation. it was given to Britain under after the first world war to establish peace, by the League of nations. The truth is that we British did have intrests in the area and we were not there soully for the purpose of keeping the peace, but that is why the League of nations put us there. Our control of Palestine was NOT for creating a state for the jews, this was only accepted by the U.N. around 1948 after numerous campaigns pre-war and after war by leaders such as Adolf Hitler (who of course did not care for Jewish welfare but wished the Jews to leave his country). Up until that point of around 1948 most of the Jews ariving in palestine were illegal immigrants, wishing for a safer home, which were only given permission to live in palestine because they were fast beginning to outnumber the arabs in some areas. After their legality was accepted zionist groups illegally (according to the U.N.) forced palestinians out of certain areas and eventually overtook part of Jerusalem (which is still considered illegal to this day). Im not saying the Jews didnt have a right to have a sanctuary, but the fact of the matter is that there was originally no outside campaigning for a state of Israel which would replace most of the Palestinians, although after the holocaust many nations felt it was unfair to prevent Jewish immigration to places such as Palestine where they could form large, protected, communities. Eventually the U.N. had to accept Israel as an independent nation, after we British left, because it was impractical to do anything otherwise, but there are still territories such as parts of Jerusalem which are illegally occupied. -S.M
User "RBWhite" has vandalized this page by changing the Israeli flag to the Nazi one. I've changed it back. Since I'm new here- what's the procedure on banning this guy? —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages-- Roy Frenkiel 11:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of vandalism, will an admin please enact semi-protection for this page? It's under constant attack, mostly by anons and new users. okedem 13:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Somebody wrote "Fuck Israel" and this needs to be fixed
I'm not an admin, but I don't think it's bad enough for protection. You can try WP:RfP though. · AndonicO Talk · Sign Here 13:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if there is a section devoted to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, much like the United States is occupying Native American land. And also if there is a section devoted to how present-day Israel is a pseudo-country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 ( talk • contribs)
Yeah, it's right up there with the articles on how France is and always shall be the property of the Roman Empire. You would be well advised to leave extremist points of view away from Wikipedia. Schrodingers Mongoose 02:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
How is that an extremist point of view? It's a valid point of view. Israel was established IN the land of Palestine. There's even a UN Resolution declaring Zionism as a form of racism, look it up if you don't believe me. I just want to get the facts straight so it doesn't seem like Israel is a country like the U.K., Germany, or Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.101.71 ( talk • contribs)
The great majority of UN resolutions on Israel have been very highly biased by the lobbying and pressure of certain states. That does not automatically make those resolutions based on false facts, but it doesn't legitimize them, either. The UN is created by humans, so it has human-like failings. The silence and inaction of the UN about the genocide in Darfur is a shining example of such failings. 91.153.144.149 22:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Remeber Israel is a tiny state, look at the size of the Arab world, I an glad to see the wikipedia using unbiased common sense.
--
EXCUSE me, how dare you even say such a thing "but I think you fall under the definition of "troll" i.e. you are just trying to get people angry".
According to the UN resolution, Israel was told to leave Palestinian land that they have occupied illegally, that is not a fib or a lie, it is a FACT. Secondly, name calling is so not appropriate, with power comes respect, something you haven't seemed to grasp as yet. Thirdly, I am absolutely in favour on a section which talks about the Occupation of Palestine, please do not deny it, i have bundles of sources and even news clips from various top new channels such as BBC, SKY NEWS about the resolution that Israel have denied to follow and repeatedly breach. Why is that other countries such as Iran, have been criticised for not following a UN resolution on its nuclear program, when Israel is ILLEGALLY occupying Palestine land and is also disregarding a UN resolution (is it, double-standards). I don't really feel biblical promises made to the Jews carry any weight in society today and therefore believe Israel has no reason for creating Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. The Israelis have migrated in thousands to Palestinian land.
I also feel that you saying "you are just trying to get people angry" is totally beyond idiotic, have you heard of something called Freedom of Speech, i am quite sure no one is really going to get angry from reading non-bias information on the topic. Yes, you may argue that if it contain bias information, it is wrong, but the truth should not be hindered! If the truth offends people or makes them angry i don't care, the truth is the truth and can be sour but everyone has a right to know. Without the truth how can you honestly get a fair opinion on anything!
This whole article has listed several facts about Israel in a good light, which are all true, however it lacks NPOV, and seems it is written by someone with an agenda, Please remember with the GOOD comes the BAD!!!
Coming to the point of the UN being bias! It may very well be bias but is there any mention of this, NO. If you start saying the UN is bias you are NOT giving the reader a NPOV, so the best thing to do is to point the facts, detach all your personal opinions, and people make their own minds up.
Israel have also had official complaints made against them about the treatment of Palestinian people, some of which can be called "War Crimes". Don't worry, i will write up the article very soon and provide very reliable sources which include elite professors in there respected fields along with top journalists from across the globe. I will hopefully expose the hidden truth, with adequate proof as i do not agree with of this one sided propaganda.
~~ STING
Is it not a discussion board? If i remember correctly i clicked on the "Discussion" tab to come to this page, and apart from "discussing" what am i doing wrong. I think this is the most fitting,page to make my comments (not complaints) to help improve this wiki for the benefit of the reader. I also do not have any "extremist complaints", there rational points, which do not include any "rants" of any sort. "Buddy" could you please read what i write carefully, i have not said one thing out of place. One other thing, i did not say this article had no NPOV, all the facts people have written are correct and i am not contesting them at all. But what i do want to see is a topic on the occupation of palestine, under a controveries heading and it here were i feel there is a one sided account given, as i said with the good comes the bad, which this article is not saying. Its funny how you call what i have written "extremist complaints", implying i must be an "extremist", very cowardly behaviour if i must say, you dont even know me. ~~STING
Do not use this page as a discussion forum. See talk page guidelines.
look at the sites!---STING 86.154.85.58 22:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Although STING is correct in his rant, it is still just a rant. Keep it on topic.
Hi, I just wanted to note, that for some reason, the map of Israel presented in the main article doesn't note that the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights are being occupied by Israel. I replaced it with a map that notes these facts. Jondr12 19:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you on that. The map you replaced it with is a 7Kb png file. If you click on it it doesn't get any bigger. I suggest making and svg file and have it shaded so that Israel proper, and the occupied territories are noted. Chikanamakalaka 01:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The map you're discussing is just meant to show Israel's location in the world. There is no need for shading of any disputed territory, and to avoid controversy it is best to just leave Israel's recognized territory in black. There's also no need for the file to be expandable to a large size given its limited purpose. There is a much larger map of the country with the disputed territories shaded in, located later in the article. Schrodingers Mongoose 18:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
It would seem to me that noting that there are disputed areas of a country within a map would fall within NPOV guidelines whereas not noting them could be viewed as POV.
jankyalias 12:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm still confused. The full-sized map of Israel half way down the page clearly shows the disputed territories and outlines their status. Why would we get fired upover a tiny map that exists solely to show where Israel is located? The mini-map does manage to indicate that the west bank is not part of Israel proper, which is really all that is reasonable at its size. Schrodingers Mongoose 00:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Joffeloff has requested a review of the reliability of "Minorities at Risk", source 32 on the page.
I've read the source, and agree with his remark. It contains numerous mistakes and half-truths:
This so-called source is extremely biased, and, in my view, should not be used. okedem 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Having looked over the source, as well as the discussion above, I strongly agree it should be removed. Its bias is clear. Schrodingers Mongoose 02:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the Falashas we are Jews too you know, 46% of Israelis dion't want us as neighbours, there must be some mention.
Bored college student 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)== Liberal Democracy (consolidated discussion) ==
(The following was previously under the "Minorities At Risk" discussion)
Arab-Israeli sociologist Sammy Smooha once acknowledged that “Israel is considered a western democracy by the Jewish elite, including the Zionist left, as well as by mainstream Israeli social scientists and western scholars…”, but he took issue with that description, instead describing Israel as an “ethnic democracy”. He writes: “Israel is a diminished ethnic democracy and not a liberal democracy because the state recognizes ethnic groups, and not just individuals. It is neither a liberal nor a multicultural democracy because it makes the Jews a core ethnic nation and the Arabs non-core outsiders. It imposes separation between Arabs and Jews through the law of religious marriages, making intermarriages infrequent and illegitimate (but recognizable by law). Israel lacks a national identity of its own that is shared by all of its citizens, and instead of treating all citizens equally, it privileges the Jews. The state is explicitly partial, serving as the homeland of all Jews in the world, not impartially catering to all its citizens regardless of ethnic origin.” [2] His work has since become mainstream in western academia and the view that Israel is an "ethnic democracy" is shared by academics like Ezra Kopelowitz, [3], Yoav Peled [4], Assad Ghanem [5], journalists like Jonathan Cook [6] and Ori Nir [7], and NGOs like MAR. Tiamut 13:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
So can we agree that simply stating "Israel is a democracy" is a neutral statement? If so, we should remove the "ethnic" or "liberal" democracy labels. Fugliesunited 18:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
What is unfair, the statement "Israel is a democracy" or the removal of the "ethnic" and "liberal" democracy language? Can you please tell me where to find Freedom House's conclusion that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy"? I read their report and could only find their ranking of Israel as "Free" (Israel 2006: Political Rights - Score 1, Civil Liberties - Score 2). I could not find any mention of "Liberal Democracy" in that report. Could you please confirm the attribution and tell me where I can verify it? Fugliesunited 06:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
This is silly and I'm sorry I even responded to this personal attack. Chabuk, you are free to think what you wish, but please stop distracting from the discussion here and let us focus on the true issues. If you have problems with me, feel free to report me to the WP authorities or leave something on my talk page.
Now to get back to the issue, it appears that the "Minorities At Risk" section has been completely removed from the article since I was here last. That is fine with me, but the references to "Liberal Democracy" need to be cleaned up also. I see people have already started doing. Hopefully we'll be able to strip out all contentious POV (both pro-Jewish and pro-Palestinian) and get this article to be more neutral than it currently is. Fugliesunited 08:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
(The following was previously under the "Contentious statement" discussion)
I wasn't fond of the inclusion of the phrase "liberal democracy" -- a nebulous and self-serving descriptor -- before this edit, but labelling Israel the "only democracy" in the "Middle East" is absurd and unacceptable.
Alyoshenka
06:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
In my view, the only mid-eastern country, besides Israel, that can lay claim to the title "Democracy", might be Lebanon. Egypt in a dictatorship, where the sole ruler is planning to transfer power to his son. Jordan is a monarchy, and completely unlike the UK. They don't pretend to be a democracy. The king holds the power. The PA is not a democracy, because it's not a country, only a somewhat autonomous region (barely). Lebanon comes closer, though it's community based government is hardly compatible with the meaning of Democracy.
Saying Egypt or Jordan are democracies is as ridicules as believing the DDR was a democracy, because its name said so. However, since this is a nebulous issue, I don't want the "only democracy" thing in the lead, also because some consider Turkey to be in the middle east, and it is a democracy. I support the previous title, "the only liberal democracy", as it truly differentiates between Israel and its neighbors. okedem 15:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
(The following was previously under the "Is it acceptable to use bogus sources in this article?" discussion)
Please have a look at
this edit. I deleted the sequence about Israel being the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. My reason for doing so is that the given source does not support the claim, and thus is a bogus. However, it has been reverted two times. As I have a hard time imagining anyone defending use of bogus sources I urge all to keep an eye on this. I am aware that the given viewpoint is widely held, and would not oppose it being included in the article, but then we need to find a verifiable source.
Bertilvidet
18:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
(Please continue discussion about "Liberal Democracy" here.)
The main article now describes Israel's democracy as a "Parliamentary Democracy". I agree with this designation. I believe this is a neutral way of describing Israel's governmental structure and avoid the problems with POV and neutrality. I feel that qualifying the democracy as "Liberal" or "Ethnic" or "the only Democracy" will only detract from the NPOV of this article.
Fugliesunited
23:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Tiamut, I will make this as quick, short, and simple as I can. "1) To me, the Freedom House source is disreputable and inaccurate." And my ask, who are you to consider them disreputable? Because they do not agree with what you believe? They do extensive, and i mean EXTENSIVE, I repeat: EXTENSIVE research annually, every year and publish a report measuring democracy and freedom every year. 2) There is no such thing as an "ethnic democracy". No such thing. Yes okay, you read about it. It means nothing. It is an unsubstanciated coined term that belongs in a poem. What about Azmi Bishara's acknowledgement of democracy? "Give us back Palestine and take your democracy with you..." They both essentially mean nothing, and by nothing I mean nothing at all whatsoever. You are adding a lot of opinion about Zionism, Israel, other things which is just plainly irrelevant and frankly WP:OR. Next, you say that they discredit Turkey as a democracy or say that Turkey is in the Middle East and Freedom House doesnt consider it as such. Lets look at this closely: 1) Turkey is considered in Western Europe as per FH probably due to its membership to the Western European and Others Group in the United Nations. Let's pretend that FH did include Turkey in the Middle East. If that were so, Israel would STILL be considered the only liberal democracy since Turkey is only an electoral democracy. Please (I said this a hundrend times already) read the difference. Now let's say Lebanon is in the picture. The fact that Lebanon has a parliament does not necessarily make them a) a parliamentary democracy, b) an electoral democracy, or c) a liberal democracy. According to Freedom House, which is what Wikipedia uses and is beyond reliable, Israel is the only liberal democracy. In order to make that a dispute, one would have to bring on another source that measures up to Freedom House, because as of now, a couple of articles written by a couple of journalists means nothing. It is Freedom House who accurately assesses what is freedom and what is democracy. -- Shamir1 23:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Also, Tiamut, review WP:Notability. I remind you to leave out personal opinion, WP:Original research as well as unreliable sources (including articles by journalists who are expressing their own opinion). If you are interested in what hinders Lebanon of its status as a true democracy, you can review its country report. What I strongly encourage you to do is to read Freedom House's overview, which gives a very decent explanation of what it all is and is not. It explains terminology and how/what is measured. -- Shamir1 00:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
To be clear - the Freedom House source never claims that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy." The Freedom House report only ranks "freedom" and scores Israel as 1 & 2 (out of 7) for political freedom and civil liberties respectively. Nowhere in the report does Freedom house use the term "Liberal Democracy." Those are the facts. Some people here are interpreting the report to mean that Israel is a "Liberal Democracy," but this is a conclusion not explicitly supported by the source. In addition, the description "Liberal Democracy" is obviously contentious in light of the many objections that have been raised.
So to the point: Is "Parliamentary Democracy" a sufficiently neutral description or not? Please answer this question. Remember, we are trying to achieve neutrality here. We should avoid terminology and language that is contentious or raises questions about POV. Fugliesunited 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
You have not done enough research. Please read here and here. They say that Israel is the only 'Free' country, which means per their methodology a liberal democracy. A country rated as free denotes that it is a liberal democracy. Not only is Israel the only the only free country in the represented region, but no other country is even an electoral democracy. That is pointed out explicitly. They write that Israel is the *only* one to be "Free", and as well as the *only* electoral democracy. According to them this is what 'Free' means: "In the survey, all Free countries qualify as both electoral and liberal democracies." And yes, neutrality. Because one user does not like it does not make it untrue that Freedom House has surveyed the world. And even if the "ethnic democracy" shananigans was actually taken seriously, there is nothing to say that an "ethnic democracy" cannot be a liberal democracy, one does not necessarily cancel the other out. Please be real. -- Shamir1 07:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all I have no problem with the claim that Israel, excluding the West Bank and Gaza, is a liberal democracy by most standards. However, I am not sure whether or not it is the only liberal democracy and was wondering if someone could clarify a few questions I have relating to liberal democracy. First are liberal democracies exclusively Free countries on the Freedom house web site or are there some countries that are listed as partly free that meet the liberal democracy criteria. The reason I ask is because Lebanon, according to freedom house has a parlementary government that ever since the end of the Syrian occupation has managed resonably fair elections. Aside from foreign interloping, keeping Lebanon from free status is corruption, gerrymandering and disproportionate representation. All of which, exist, albeit on a smaller scale, in the United States, as was made obvious with the Jack Abramoff scandal, the Texas redistriction controversy and the fact that dispite African Americans make up roughly 12.9% of the population according to the US census they hold only 1% of seats in the Senate and 9% of US congressial seats. Is there a threshold at which these problems make a country not a liberal democracy? The reason I think this is relavent is because many have claimed that Israel is the only Liberal electoral democracy in the Middle East and I'm not sure whether that is true or not. I do not want to argue one way or the other I would just like some clarification on this point. Thanks Bored college student 18:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think I can answer your questions.
If this issue should ever come about again, take this into account. One may assume that those who would most aggressively criticize Israel as a democracy would be the Palestinian Arabs. A
Ramallah based
think tank found that Palestinians consistently rate Israel's democracy more positively than any other given nation, rating it even higher than the United States and France.
[8] --
Shamir1
05:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your clarification I appreciate it. One tiny thing though Turkey is the only Middle Eastern Muslim nation to have an electoral democracy but Indonesia, Mali and Senegal are non-Middle Eastern Muslim nations that meet that criteria but this is just me being OCD. Again I really do appreciate your explanation. Thanks Bored college student 18:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion I noticed people claiming that lebanon is not a 'true' democracy because it is ruled partially by quota of memebers of different ethnic groups. The point I have to say on this is that this is the case in most democracies (or what like to be termed as) such as my country, the U.K., there is a system of choosing those from ethnic groups (somewhat disregarding qualifications in a few cases) so as to fufill government quotas for asians or blacks to be employed in certain jobs (increasingly this is case with employment into the political system). This does not mean we are not a democracy, mearly that we are choosing to favour those who were in the past unfavoured. It is somewhat unfair, but on the other hand acts as a type of power compensation. This is much more prominent in Lebanon where the ethnic groups are each strictly represented by numbers, but the same idea could be used to be carried here, the fact that each group is proportionally represented means that each minority (and the people in it) really do have a democracy, in quite a fair form. The problem with this is, is that when the groups disagree things rarely happen and power of the government is often limited, however in a true democracy this is a way should be the case (although it is not what Lebanon needs). The government must be very carefull not to unbalance one group and let a war form, and as the groups often disagree the power of individual people over what happens is often limited, but this is a sense is a better example of democracy, where everyone is fairly represented, than Israel which may not be deemed a democracy because practically 20% of the population (as well as some disliked jewish groups) are not represented. What I trully intend to say is that a democracy is a country where people can elect their leader, and be fairly rperesented in a parlimentary system, lebanon fufills these perammeters, Israel does not, therfore it is not right for someone to write like Israel is a bastion of democratic hope in a dark undemocratic middle east.-R.A .
Sorry for posting in the wrong area, im kind of new to actually posting comments and I clicked on the wrong edit. Anyway Okedem what you wrote about my comment being misleading is correct, I should have specified what I meant, I was quite vague. I know the representation in lebanon is not perfectly proportional or perfectly fair (I was just generalising, which I admit is not a good thing to do when commenting on circumstances like these), and I criticised the weakness of the government myself. However, although the representation of the minorities is not always great it would be a lie to say that Lebanon was not a liberal democracy in the sense that is argued in favour of Israel here. I'm not arguing for democracy, in many cases it is weak, and often does not work (e.g. Iraq) it cannot be imposed, a country must want to have democracy, this is the problem with Lebanon, many of the groups in it wish only for their leadership to come out on top. Ultimately, however, all the groups in Lebanon ARE represented in one way or another (possibly not completly preportional, but none are ignored) and its not like the christians can afford to take no notice of groups such as Hezbollah, lest another civil war occur. The government has to keep a delicate balancing with all of the groups, and this ultimately involves listening to what they are saying. Sure the government feels the country's policy should be ruled by statisic percentages of every faction, but ultimately it is a democracy because everyone in the country IS fairly represented and can vote, it is a coalition, it may not be a good democracy but this does not mean it is not liberal. You gave me examples of arab parties in Israel and one arab government minister (trophy employee?). This does nto mean that the arab people are fairly represented, any arab party that adresses the fact that there was once a country full of now displaced people underneath Israel is immediately labeled extremist before they open their mouths. As long as the arabs toe the line they are allowed some representation in an area of land that was originally theirs. Im not saying Israel is illegitimate or ligitimate, I'm saying its here and that issuues should not be hidden but confronted. The fact is only arab parties that accept Israelm and Israeli doctrine are allowed to represent their people, which effectively take away the little power they were expected to have. Basically the democracy in Israel consists of Israeli parties, and arab parties which cannot negotiate anything meaningful for themselves, its a democracy for the arabs as long as they dont disagree with the government, which means it isnt a democracy, for them at least. My point is that Lebanon is a liberal democracy but its kind of in tatters, it dosent make it any less of a democracy, everyone can vote for the parties that represent them, all which have considerable clout, in Israel the arab parties are basically neutered. And anyway, at the end of the day does being a democracy make it a civilised and good country? No? then why is its democracy and other elements stemming from it mentioned in this article as if it makes Israel the best country in the middle east.-R.A
I have a slight problem with the "Palestine was never a Country" Argument I am going to take a leap of faith here and assume by country you mean "Nation-State” With a few exceptions in North America, Western Europe and East Asia there were no Countries/Nation-States 200 years ago most areas of the were Controlled/inhabited either Traditional Empires, Colonial Empires, City states or Stateless Societies. Nation-states are a relatively new Phenomena however they usually reflect the peoples that lived there in times before the organization of such Nation States Israel is an exception to this (I know 2000 years ago Judea existed, as a Roman Provence similar to Palestine as an Ottoman one, but most of the world is not inhabited by the people that lived there 2000 years ago, otherwise we would see a lot more Celts, Grecians, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Assyrians, Harrapins, Ainu, Native Americans, Goths, Non-Bantu Equatorial Africans and Aborigines.) With this said possession is 9/10 of the law, Israel is there, and creating other fanciful historical excuses really is not necessary. Heck most American schools and colleges I know of teach that we took Native American land through wars and chicanery. That’s the way the world works, like it or not, and the reason why there are so few peoples from 2000 years ago still around but I digress. How this arugment showed up on a page about liberal democracy is really confusing though. Bored college student 21:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I did read that and what I am trying to say is that the arguments you and he use are using are both incomplete. First while Palestine never was a Nation-state the Palestinians are a nation, because Palestinians are distinct from other peoples in the region, such as the Turks, Lebanese and Syrians. Second it is well documented in the Wikipedia article and from other sources that 700,000 est. Palestinians were displaced during the 1948 war. This is the "country" full of displaced people he is talking about and while it is not a "country" that does not mean there are not displaced people. Bored college student 23:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
"So I'm making this clear - no country here, since the Jews." is exactly the reason I said I do not buy the "Palestine was never a country argument”. While technically correct it is misleading. Until 1945 India was never a country either, and until 1860 there was no country of Italy. Just because there was no country does not mean there was nothing there the mythical "land without a people". Palestine existed as much in the same way Italy and India did prior to the establishment of nation states which is to say there were Indians, and Italians but they lived under various Empires and fiefdoms and did not just poof into existence on the establishment of their states. You make it seem like the Jews left after the Roman reprisals of 70 AD the land went dormant and they came back in the 20th century. THAT is misleading the fact of what happened (without getting into details) is there were Palestinians, and a Jewish minority, then there was the 1948 war in which the Israelis were victorious and the Palestinians were displaced. (Not going to argue the reasons on this one) Victorious Israel would not let the Palestinians back and re-settled the former Palestinian owned lands with Jewish immigrants. My main argument here is that yes there was no Country of Palestine, however, there was an a Palestinian entity in the area in various non-nation state forms, such as an imperial province, mandates and governorates, and that simply claiming that there was "no country here, since the Jews" without acknowledging Palestinian habitation may be technically correct, but it is highly misleading and fails to recognize the not nation-state entities that existed prior to the Establishment of Israel in which the Palestinian people resided. Bored college student 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, why do we not mention in the lead that the status of Israel's capital is actually disputed? [9] [10] Thanks. Yas121 17:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, as far as I know, no other country recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Tel Aviv is the internationally recognized capital. Note: I may be wrong and so begin the hunt for sources.
Jankyalias
12:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how what a country's capital is is an issue for other countries to recognize. It is a matter of a) self-declaration; and b) actual location of government. By both those criteria the capital is at Jerusalem. john k 15:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Do you think it would be a fair compromise to word it as "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and de facto capital"? Cigrainger 09:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
But isn't the fact that most nations have their embassies in Tel Aviv in itself a noteworthy point, worthy of a mention in the article?
Epeeist smudge
13:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I would just like to say that the connection between capitol and seat of goverment is quite arbitrary. It's not a given. Point in fact: the capitol of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, while its seat of government is in the Hague. And nobody disputes Amsterdam's status as capitol for this reason, or any other reason for that matter. Vodyanoi 09:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I question the NPOV of this statement:
Some Israeli historians suggest that the Palestinians fled because of orders from Arab generals. Many Palestinians left under the belief that the Arab armies would prevail and they would return.[16]
Besides being rather biased, the source for this doesn't appear to be particularly credible. It cites a NY Post article from 1948 written by "Observer". Reading this apparent primary source clearly shows that the source itself is biased. Also, the article is from the Immanuel Velikovsky website, which in itself should raise some questions about neutrality (IV is not known for his neutral and objective stance). Fugliesunited 07:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
“This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks
before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.”
I m dude2002 19:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The implications here seem a bit problematic. Palestinians left the war zone, certainly. I wouldn't be surprised if they generally believed that the Arab armies would be victorious and they would be able to return. But is there any reason to think that they didn't think they would also be able to return in the instance that the Arab armies were defeated? The implication of putting it this way is that, by leaving the scene of an ongoing war, these civilians were somehow active partisans, and thus deserved what they got (dispossession). The claim that they left because Arab generals ordered them to makes this implication even worse. On the whole, I'd say that this article is an overview. It is not an article on the 1948 War, or even one on the history of Israel. The exact motivations of the flight of Arab civilians is not really appropriate to this article, as any brief statement is likely to tend more towards one side or the other. I'd prefer to just mention that Arab civilians fled during the war, without getting into motivations. john k 15:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's get back to my original issue with this section. I am question its NPOV. I think john k has got it correct: debating the motivations for fleeing the land does not lend to the NPOV of this article. Why are debating the reasons for Arabs fleeing in an article about Israel? Would it not be sufficient to just state the fact that Arabs fled the region? Adding additional commentary about the motives only detracts from the NPOV of this article ... which I believe is sorely lacking. Fugliesunited 22:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Fugliesunited and John K. my original reason for disputing the NPOV of this article was the reason given for the Palestinian flight from Israel. Bored college student 07:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I just wonder if there is any way to say this without implying that arabs fled for good reasons, or vice versa. I think if one tried to write it without the two very different versions of why the exodus occured, it will come out sounding biased even if it doesn't mean to be. But by all means give it a shot. Schrodingers Mongoose 00:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I've updated the 1948 War section to remove statements about Arab and Jewish motivations for fleeing. This is the revised section on the migrations:
Large numbers of the Arab population fled the newly-created Jewish State during the Palestinian exodus, which is referred to by many Palestinian groups and individuals as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة ), meaning "disaster" or "cataclysm". Estimates of the final Palestinian refugee count range from 400,000 to 900,000 with the official United Nations count at 711,000.[23] The unresolved conflict between Israel and the Arab world that persists to this day has resulted in a lasting displacement of Palestinians refugees.
In addition, the entire Jewish population of the West Bank and Gaza Strip also fled to Israel. Within a year of 1948 war, immigration of Jewish refugees from Arab lands doubled Israel's population. Over the following years approximately 850,000 Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews fled or were expelled from surrounding Arab countries. Of these, about 600,000 settled in Israel; the remainder went to Europe and the Americas (see Jewish exodus from Arab lands).
Please discuss if you feel this is not sufficiently neutral. Thanks. Fugliesunited 07:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Throughout this discussion I noticed people claiming that lebanon is not a 'true' democracy because it is ruled partially by quota of memebers of different ethnic groups. The point I have to say on this is that this is the case in most democracies (or what like to be termed as) such as my country, the U.K., there is a system of choosing those from ethnic groups (somewhat disregarding qualifications in a few cases) so as to fufill government quotas for asians or blacks to be employed in certain jobs (increasingly this is case with employment into the political system). This does not mean we are not a democracy, mearly that we are choosing to favour those who were in the past unfavoured. It is somewhat unfair, but on the other hand acts as a type of power compensation. This is much more prominent in Lebanon where the ethnic groups are each strictly represented by numbers, but the same idea could be used to be carried here, the fact that each group is proportionally represented means that each minority (and the people in it) really do have a democracy, in quite a fair form. The problem with this is, is that when the groups disagree things rarely happen and power of the government is often limited, however in a true democracy this is a way should be the case (although it is not what Lebanon needs). The government must be very carefull not to unbalance one group and let a war form, and as the groups often disagree the power of individual people over what happens is often limited, but this is a sense is a better example of democracy, where everyone is fairly represented, than Israel which may not be deemed a democracy because practically 20% of the population (as well as some disliked jewish groups) are not represented. What I trully intend to say is that a democracy is a country where people can elect their leader, and be fairly rperesented in a parlimentary system, lebanon fufills these perammeters, Israel does not, therfore it is not right for someone to write like Israel is a bastion of democratic hope in a dark undemocratic middle east.
I have failed this article as a GA per lack of references and in-line citations. While there are many sections that do really well at this, there are still quite a lot of places where non-trivial information or statistics is stated without citations. I would have guessed that some of these would have references on the {{ main}} pages corresponding to the sections, but I have checked a couple (for example the Music section) and this is not entirely true. Quite a lot of {{ fact}} statements sticking out as well. I have not spotted any other problems.-- Konstable 02:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I am putting this in the wrong place...I don't really know how to use the website. Under the religion section, it says that most people are Jews, and that the second largest religious group is "Arabs." "Arabs" is not a religion, and there are Arab people who are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.
Acting President is not a title, it is a temporary function. Dalia Itzik did not attain a new title when Katzav took a leave of absence. Now it appears Dalia Itzik is out of the country, so the infobox says Majalli Wahabi is the acting president. Next, Wahabi will sneeze, and someone else will be acting president for a few seconds! Itzik's title is still the speaker of the knesset, and that should be her title in the infobox. Wahabi did not get a new title when Dalia Itzik boarded the airplane, he's still just a deputy speaker. I think the infobox should reflect positions, not temporary functions.-- Doron 08:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The article gives "the total area under Israeli control, including the military-controlled and Palestinian-governed territory of the West Bank" but not the population. I will put in the corresponding demographic info. Fourtildas 06:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The area figure in the infobox includes the Golan Heights, altough they are not recognized as part of Israel by the international community. Even from the Israeli point of view it is not clear they should be included, indeed Israel did not formally annex the Golan Heights. The Golan Law carefully avoided implications regarding annexation or sovereignty, and Begin's comments on the issue at the time indicate that this was intentional. Therefore including the Golan Heights as part of the area of Israel is controversial, to say the least.-- Doron 09:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Lately, there were a couple of attempts (like this one) to replace the newer map with an older and unintelligible one. I don't understand what is the deal here exactly, but if the newer one contains an error, it needs to be corrected. The old one is so much worse, it's a non-starter. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 06:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
If you know the people on this page it has to be the Kosovo ;-).-- Stone 10:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been reverting these map changes since they started. No one has given any reasonable explanation why the map should be changed to the less clear, inaccurate png version. If there is an error in the good verion I can't make it out, but the other one doesn't even look like Israel. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The West Bank / Gaza are disputed - could we have a map which somehow highlights that rather than the current one which makes it appear that Palestine is a sovereign country rather than an area which is still rightly or wrongly an area under Israeli juristiction. Maybe the disputed territories in a different colour with a note below explaining their status?
The previous map was a bit too small to make out anything 172.189.33.31 13:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure everybody knows the history of the Hebrew. The Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered and its people disappeared over time but the Southern Kingdom of Judah and its people were displaced but remained together til this day. So here's my question. Why is the present-day Jewish state called "Israel" when the people are clearly the descendants of Judah? Wouldn't calling the state Judah be more correct?-- Secret Agent Man 18:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This is minor, but I think worthwhile. That picture of "infected mushroom" is very bad and unnecessary. How about removing it? The other picture is enough for the small section. The Behnam 01:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The "infected mushroom" picture seems very out of place in an article about Israel.
Fugliesunited
01:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
''''The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv.
To suggest that it is Jerusalem is factually incorrect, indicative of zionist extremism, and blatantly racist.
The classification of Jerusalem as Israel's capital city is contrary to world opinion (except of course Israel and America..thanks AIPAC!), and contrary to countless UN resolutions.
It is wholly irresponsible, and unacademic for the administrators of wikpedia, to allow this so called fact to be presented.
So long as you allow zionist extremism and blatant racism to go unchallenged, wikipedia will never be accepted by mainstream academic circles as anything but garbage.' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.224.190.3 ( talk) 03:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
If you believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel,then by that logic, the US would be able to delcare Baghdad as our capital since we currently occupy it. No nation in the world has ever recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Even the US refuses to fully support the idea of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital. The city of Jerusalem is nothing more than a militarily occupied foreign city that Israel wants as its capital, regardless of whether or not the city is part of Israel, which according to international law it is not. There is no academic nor international body anywhere (except in Israel) that accepts the Israeli declaration of Jerusalem as their capital.
Then how would you describe a city and a territory that was taken over by a group of people from Europe who themselves committed acts of terrorism against the original inhabitants as well as against the British forces who were there at the time? If you dont consider taking territory by force at the end of a gun to be a military or terrorist action, the what do you call it? i'd be very interested in knowing how you define that. Also, the use of pogroms to get the inhabitants out or just killing them off when they tried to fight back were also tactics used at the time. How do you categorize that? I really am curious, as it seems, by your reasoning, it would be perfectly valid if Jordan invaded, set-up shop and then declared Jersualem its capital (or any other country for that matter). And just for the record, I am not a Jew, Christian, nor a Muslim, and your suggestion to study history is ridiculous. i hold a post graduate degree from a flagship university in the US. as part of the program, it was required that we study international relations, culture and history extensively, as well as attain some level of fluency in at least one foreign language in order to study sources in languages other than English (I speak 3 fluently and 2 others on a basic level, so i have been able to gather information from a very wide variety of sources). I include this basic bio only because of your personal attack directed at me and not at my views on the topic. Again, i would find it enlightening to read how you define a territory that was taken-over in the manner that Israel and Jersualem were. If it doesnt come under a category of military action, then the other alternative seems to be a territory held by force by a non-national paramilitary organization, or something to that effect. Please, I invite you to enlighten us.
Iside this article there have been numerous people (from looking at other articles in this talk page generally pro-jewish Israeli) who ahev said things along the lines of what that Okedem guy said 'obviously you have no idea what a capital city is' but please can one of you actually define what a captital city is? Or is it undefinable because it is what anyone thinks it is? Please can one of you define for me why your so right, and tell me exactly what makes a capital a capital.
The section "The world's perception" was removed for the following reasons:
-- Shamir1 18:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Population counts in large cities are totally wrong:
"As of 2006, The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics defines three metropolitan areas: Tel Aviv (population 3,040,400), Haifa (population 996,000) and Beersheba (population 531,600)[6]. The capital, Jerusalem, has a population of 719,900. The Jerusalem Institute of Israel Studies defines the metropolitan area Jerusalem (population 2,300,000, including 700,000 Jews and 1,600,000 Arabs)[7]."
The right figures would be
Jerusalim 720,000 Tel-aviv - 378,000 Haifa - 267,000
from http://www1.cbs.gov.il/webgis/website/yishuvim/yishuvim_2005/XLS/bycode.xls —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.145.105 ( talk) 00:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC).
The BBC says:
According to Haaretz, Ehud Olmert said it was decided at least four months before that any kidnap of Israeli troops on its border would trigger war.
On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah militants seized two Israeli soldiers sparking an all-out assault by Israel's military.
Mr Olmert reportedly made the claim to an inquiry last month.
The Winograd Commission is an Israeli government-appointed commission tasked with investigating last summer's conflict with Lebanon and identifying lessons to be learned from it.
It is expected to release its interim report this month.
I am a new user so I can't edit this page, but I think someone should add at the end of the last paragraph in the history of the 2000's something along the lines of "It has recently come to light that the strategy used in this war was planned months in advance." Use [13] as the source.
Cigrainger 09:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Hizballah (the "Party of God", not "Hezbollah") shelled Israeli territory after the Israelis committed human rights atrocities in Gaza (as stated by the UN) such as cutting off energy and water to civilians after an Israeli soldier was taken hostage by the terrorist group Hamas. I'm not saying the shelling was acceptable by any means, but the destruction of Beirut was an unnecessary act of violence on the civilians and nation of Lebanon (which achieved no inroads on destroying Hizballah, only killing over 1000 civilians), and was a continuation of the decades-long history of such. Having plans to decimate much of the capital city of a country with whom you at peace, based on the actions of a militant extremist terrorist group, is a decidedly "special" revelation. Cigrainger 13:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to note that the Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organizations as recognized by the British government. Failure to do so is quite hypocritical if we are to recognize groups such as the early PLO as terrorist organizations (which I do). I'm honestly not trying to be biased or hate-mongering -- if we look at what a terrorist organization is, the Irgun and Lehi fall under those terms. Bombing buildings, killing innocents, et al for political gain are certainly acts of political terrorism.
"Who Are the Terrorists?", Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 1. (Autumn, 1979), pp. 154-160. [14]
Cigrainger 09:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it really appropriate to say that Israel is "considered to be the most advanced in ... overall human development" in the opening of the article? Is "overall human development" defined? I'd say that there are quite a few people around the world who might argue that the country's policies place it squarely last in the region. I think it's fair to say that Israeli law squarely rejects the idea of equality among men and universal human rights (a concept accepted by the UN and member nations since the signing of the Universal Declaration on Human Rights) - something I would say is a cornerstone of "overall human development". I'd be interested to hear an intelligent debate on the wisdom of using this type of language or subjective reasoning in this article. Welrifai 03:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Wael - 11 March, 2007
"most advanced" - I thought some woman was going to court so she didn't have to sit in the back of the bus. Boy have they kept that piece of news off the front page in the US.
159.105.80.63
17:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No, NO woman is "going to court so she doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus". She is suing some men for hitting her a PRIVATE bus where she DELIBERATELY provoked them by sitting in the men's section, rather than the women's. It was a religious bus where all the occupants agree to being segregated so the men don't ogle the women. The ONLY reason the women's section is in the back is because the seats on the bus face forward, NOT because "women are 2nd class citizens". If the seats faced the back, the men would be sitting in the back. 141.156.150.185 10:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Susan
"Starting around the eleventh century BCE, the first of a series of Jewish kingdoms and states established intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millennium.[16]"
When I check out link [16] it looks like a country calling itself Israel gets established about 1100 BCE, and then survives until about 600 BCE and then gets stomped on, and never reappears until 1948. So in what sense does a Jewish kingdom/state rule over the region for a millenium? I also looked at History of ancient Israel and Judah and it doesn't seem to mention anything. WolfKeeper 09:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I could certainly buy Jewish people living there for well over a thousand years, but it doesn't look at the moment to me like they were self-ruling. Shouldn't this read "lasted more than 500 years"? Is there a cite anywhere explaining? WolfKeeper 09:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There's also a little state called Judaea. It was independent from about 160 BC to 6 AD, and again from 41-44 (although it was a Roman client after 63 BC). In the intermittent period, under the Persians, Ptolemies, and Seleucids, the Jews largely ruled themselves through their high priest, although they didn't have political independence, so I wouldn't describe it as rule. But certainly the Hasmoneans and the Herods were real "rulers" of the region. john k 15:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
Israel did not 'start fending for itself' and never has. It has always relied 100% on UN and US support. The agreement was, just have our tanks, don't buy Soviet or Chinese. The money just never stopped rolling in for Israel.
Where is the US on this. I guess Israel managed to acquire billions and billions of dollars by magic. What a blatantly self-serving article. I'm not a Nazi pig or whatever but this belongs on some pro-israel nutter site, not on Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irocktoomuch ( talk • contribs) 16:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC).
If it is worth mentioning US financial and military support of Israel, then it is worth mentioning USSR's financial and military support of Egypt and Syria, which directly led to the October (Yom Kippur) War. This war also saw French arms being used against Israel through Egypt (via Algeria), as well as Iraq being equipped by the USSR. Or how about Saudi Arabia's financial support of Syria and Egypt to the tune of 1 billion dollars to support their military aggression against Israel? Yet you are only concerned about the US support of Israel? M000558 16:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Israel is not an English-speaking country. No more than any other country in the world. Reluctantly I can live with "Russian-speaking", but not English-speaking.-- Doron 01:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
According to a current Washington Post article "The Israeli government is arguing in domestic courts that it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip" and "In February, Israel opened a $35 million terminal at the Erez crossing on the Gaza border, where travelers now receive Israeli exit and entry stamps in their passports." So, unless someone thinks the WaPo could be in error, I will add the border with Gaza to the first paragraph. Fourtildas 02:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've made a small deletion to the "Human Rights" section, but given the contentious naure of this article wanted to provide a brief explanation. The criticisms of AI and HRW are cited, and then there are two inter-wiki links to accussed anti-Israeli bias in these organizations, the first of which (to AI) goes to a section that no longer exists. I feel this would be justified under certain circumstances, but cannot given the frequent citations to Freedom House in the paragraph that follows. It is not that I seek to discredit Freedom House, but I did note that on the Freedom House page there is an allegation of neo-conservative bias (which is strongly pro-Israel). I feel that the AI and HRW accusations against Israel in this section are balanced out by the favorable reviews Israel is given by Freedom House. Thus, if accusations of bias are to be referenced, they should be referenced to all the organizations mentioned or none at all. In other words, "AI and HRW have been accused of being anti-Israel" as well as "FH has been accussed of a neo-con bias." Frankly, I think neither are necessary. I think both sides are accurately represented and thus the assertions should speak for themselves.
On a side note, I am a student of foreign affairs but admitedly Israel and the Middle East are not one my areas of expertise. But I would like to submit for you to consider, from a neutral outsider's perspective, that this article at points seems highly defensive of Israel. I can understand the need to be so, given that this article and similar ones are probably a constant source of anti-Israeli vandalism. Again, Israel and the Middle East are not my areas of expertise, but I'm educated enough to know about the contentious nature of the topic. Not being an expert I don't intend to edit this article much, but I would like you to consider that POV in any instance can work against the author's intended effect. I think you can trust intelligent readers to draw impartial and accurate conclusions.
Best, SpiderMMB 21:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Please contribute to the discussion at Template talk:Israel-InfoBox regarding whether or not the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem should be considered part of Israel for the purpose of determining Israel's area.-- Doron 10:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
i suggest changing the section were the article states that Palestinians "fled" in the 1948 war of independence to a less biased expression "fled or were forced out of their homes", since this issue is disputed.-- 213.6.44.241 13:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it should be replaced with this image. The reasons are that it has more contrast, no power lines, higher resolution, and shows the actual diamong exchange complex and not nearby unrelated towers. Any thoughts? -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 13:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC) I have just found out that the Hebrew wiki has the same image with a higher resolution. However, the licensing is still GFDL, the image I am proposing was made by mean and it is PD-self. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 13:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Just in case I leave before anyone replies, I have uploaded the image to commons at Image:Bursa05.jpg. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 09:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm thinking of photos like these: http://www.pbase.com/gilazouri/telaviv . Such photos are a beautiful view of Tel Aviv's modern world. For example, the ones halfway down the page with the University railway station on the foreground. -- Bear and Dragon 13:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the history section is too detailed and long for this article - the detailed history should be at History of Israel, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries says that history should be "A brief outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs should do), including at least a paragraph on the current events going on there. Link to "History of X"."...was looking at this and it will be hard to do but I think we should do it. I didn't want to delete stuff from this article because there are gaps in the history of Israel article-for example, Herzl isn't mentionned at all. Flymeoutofhere 17:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- In the "History" part, some lines seems to be blank. Is it a tamplate problem or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Viclick ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Israel really need better P.R . The ancient history of Israel is only briefly introduced even though it have a lot to do with the Israeli Jewish people at present, and more important -due the ancient Jewish history at Israel, the population overtaken major achievements , comparing with many other nations of that time, almost at any possible field : Science , Architecture ,Industry ,Military thought (i.e. Guerilla war against modern army which the Mccabees were between the first to use ) , Religious , Establishment and etc .especially when the Jews had their own autonomy , before the Roman occupation ruined every thing. More, the Israeli Hi-Tech achievements , which are phenomenal at any scale , are only shortly mentioned and with no getting into details and nor do the military industries, which are of importance, are (a project like the " Lavi" can tell ones a lot about the country) .Sport achievements are mentioned while they are actually negligible and not impressive one's .Facts like that Israel is the second most advanced country relatively to its age, although the wars it had , and although lack of naturl resources and the very complex reality of life in Israel , under consistent threats and total corruption of the political establishment, is not mentioned nor do the fact that the Israeli GNP is within the 30 world highest in spite of all the difficulties .There are many good examples for what should be include at that article -like that with a 1/20 of investment the engineering faculty of the "Technion" is ranking as the first in the world aside to M.I.T faculty, and that all of Israel 6 universities (serving more than 100,000 students together) are at the world top 500. The impression that the average American/European and etc have , is that Israel is actually a place in which people 'driving' to work riding on a camel.-- Gilisa 15:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree these should be noted to all, but this is an encyclopedia, how much can we put an emphasis on "good" and neglect the rest of the information? I know you're right and I know the importance of the common belief outside of Israel about Israel, but really, can we do that? 84.108.149.70 17:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
We can find space for doing so if we delete the less successful sections...-- Gilisa 16:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to link Israel to the ethnostate article. Would people who have worked on the Israel article more than I have please do this. -- Twoheel 16:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The information regarding Eichmann is not correct and should be fixed or removed. See Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 ( talk) 10:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
I was wondering why the writer of the article ignored a very important fact in Arab-Israeli history that is Al Karamah war in which the Jordanian Royal army succefully fought, stopped and fully destroyed the invading Israeli armies. I think that articles must not be biost as the one you proudly show, as it has many miconceptions and many missing facts that change the view of the reader and makes him get history in an unproper manner. If I may ask the people in charge of these articles (the publisher) to please fully check each article before it is published in order to save time, trouble, and to reveal History as it's supposed to be shown.
Regards, A Proud Jordanian Citizen —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.118.8.214 ( talk) 10:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
With a quick glance over the article I noticed that you need to make sure to quickly add citations or remove the statements that have "citation needed" after them. This may cause the article to be quick-failed. Look over the GA criteria to make sure anything else needs to be fixed. Also, as a heads up, it looks like the coat of arms image is up for deletion, so the editors here may want to weigh in on its discussion. Image:Idf logo4.jpg and Image:Itzhak perlman.jpg also need fair use rationales. These are just some things I noticed that need to be fixed, so please do fix them so that the article is not immediately failed. Good work so far and good luck with GAC. -- Nehrams2020 19:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe this was vandalized, there are "pigs" in the infobox. -- Scorpion prinz ( Talk | contribs) 07:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the history section is too large for two reasons:
Please comment - I am happy to work on making it more concise.-- Flymeoutofhere 17:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)