This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ismail I article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Ismail I was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (July 30, 2014). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Safavid dynasty was copied or moved into Ismail I with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Migboy123 ( talk • contribs) 09:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai is the son of a Turk, and there are many articles about this, please look at those articles Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:12, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai's grandfather was Uzun Hasan Hasan. Uzun Hasan was the ruler of the Aggoyunlu state, how can it be that someone whose father and grandfather are Turks becomes a Persian or a Kurd?Please correct it. Shah Ismayil Khatai is the Shah of Azerbaijan Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted 3 edits by 2 IPs, deleting sources and infos. Tājik ( talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
According to the Gumilyov L. (Bosphere and Etnogenesis of the Earth, Moscow, 2001) Shah ismail has purely turkic origin and his native language was Azerbaijani turkish. Therefore, He wrote in Azerbaijani turkish. Dear TAJIK, You have written that According to Minorsky Shah Ismail was bilingual at birth. Firstly, It must be shame for all of us, to say about Shah Ismail bilingual. Secondly, the Idea of Minorsky cannot be used here as a criteria. Therefore, I delete "Minorsky". Shah Ismail HAS TURKISH DIVAN and everybody knows that it was his native language.
In Life and Political History section it writes: Baghdad and the holy Shi'a shrines of Najaf and Karbala were seized from the Ottoman Turks, lost and reconquered again.
I think this sentence must be revised. Ismail died in 1524. Iraq had never been a part of Ottoman Empire before 1524. Iraq was annexed by Ottoman Empire in 1534 , ten years after Ismail's death. So there was no conquest and reconquest of Iraq from Ottoman Empire. In fact, Ismail conquered Iraq from Murat Bey of Akkoyunlu Turkmens in 1508 Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The text in the article now states that he was bilingual 'at birth'. Did he start speaking two different languages the moment he came out of his mother? If so, she might have been somewhat distressed. I think what is meant is either "his household was bilingual" or "he grew up bilingual".
70.18.16.154 ( talk) 07:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I did my best but could not find the Doerfer's article about the meaning of Khatā'ī . I think it may also be related to Khitan people that in Persian language it is written as Khatā'ī . -- Alborz Fallah ( talk) 16:17, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I detected Ethnocentric attempt by User:Lysozym and User:Xashaiar. Those edits: A, B etc. are POV pushing. It's very clear that their attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. However this is historical fact. At first, Ismail became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the shah of all of Iran. OK ?POV pushing edit. It's very clear your attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. This is historical fact. First of all, he became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the "Shah Iran". Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 10:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 11:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Shah Ismael was Shah of Iran not Persia. Why when I read wikipedia it states as him Shah of Persia?? I suggest to delete it. My source is
Savory, "The Safavid State and Polity", p. 214 for Roemer's comments; ibid., pp. 206—8, for further examples from Iskandar MunshI showing that Iran was viewed by that historian as a positive entity or state.
The_Cambridge_History_of_Iran_Volume_6 page 352. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
I was alerted that someone had changed all of the male pronouns to female. So I changed back, her to his, she to he, girl to boy, daughter to son. The problem is that in some passages it's not clear which is correct as a few of the people were female. Any knowledgeable person who can read through the sections and correctly align the pronouns with the individuals is welcome to make changes to the article.
Particularly confusing is this passage: "His father, Martha, was the son of Uzun Hasan by his Pontic Greek husband Theodora, better known as Despina Khatun.[6] Theodora was the son of Empress John IV of Trebizond. (He had married Uzun Hassan in a deal to protect Trebizond from the Ottomans.[7]) Ismail grew up bilingual, speaking Persian and Azeri.[8][9]" I have no idea whether husband, son, father are correct or were also incorrectly changed.
Thank you! Ocaasi t | c 22:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
A short explanation for that sided claims.-- 83.66.126.43 ( talk) 12:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8usSxFs8Eo&feature=relmfu
Shah Ismayil Khatai and Yavuz Sultan Selim's talks were in Turkish They spoke Turkish because their roots were Turkish. There are several articles about this Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
It wrongly states that Ismail converted Iran from sunni Islam to Ismaili shia Islam, which is wrong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.143.179.68 ( talk) 07:12, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Kurdish root of Ismail have presented in only one historical resource but many others are rejecting this claim. I think, the most valuable resource about identity of Ismail is his "divan". He used to so pure Turkish in his divan. The only one claim can not be acceptable for mark him as "Kurdish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.51.158 ( talk) 11:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Dears
Kansas Bear,
IamNotU,
I have objection to below statement, as I see a tendency last 7 years trying to make Shah Ismael Kurdish, which I would like to justify.
"Ismail was born to Martha and Shaykh Haydar on July 17, 1487 in Ardabil. His father, Haydar, was the sheikh of the Safaviyya Sufi order and a direct descendant of its Kurdish[9][10][11] founder, Safi-ad-din Ardabili (1252–1334).".
First I will star from sources where it says that the origin of Sayx Safi ad-Din is obscure however, in this article it was used as reference to justify that he was Kurdish:
"Peter B. Golden: An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples; In: Osman Karatay, Ankara 2002, p.321" - reference 19 in this article.
This citation was published by Peter B. Golden in researchgate. I went through the scholar and couldn't find any statement that clearly says that the founder of Safavi order was Kurdish. Citation was published in 1992, I was unable find any information that suggest it was edited in 2002. Even in his official page in researchgate there is no information about this citation being re published in 2002.
"The Safavids derived from Sayx Safi ad-Din (1252-1334), the founder of a Sunnî ~ûfi order. His origins are obscure, perhaps Kurdish or Türkmen. (page 371) - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281319978_An_Introduction_to_the_History_of_the_Turkic_Peoples published by Harrassowitz Verlag
Osman Karatay, Ankara 2002 - is reference to translation of the book by Osman Karatay in 2002 ( https://dergipark.org.tr/en/pub/iutarih/issue/9612/120071) . If this book refers Sufi order being Kurdish not obscure as it mentioned in original citation, the source can't be considered reliable.
Secondly, the reference number [10] Savory 1997, p. 8. - My question to you guys, is it right way to refer something, as reference is completely not clear. It refers to Encyclopædia Iranica. Is it right to refer some sites which is opened by Iranian Foundation or founded by Iranian foundation? It is like me using links and resources from Azerbaijan Research Centre. Don't you think it will be biased information? Moreover, reference to link doesn't contain enough information to justify he was Kurdish, it just says that during Shah Ismael and Tahmasib time Ṣafwat al-ṣafā revised to obscure the Kurdish origins of the Safavid family and to vindicate their claim to descent from the Imams. Is it enough to justify history? One sentence? Open question to you guys whether this reference is valid or not.
The third reference number [9] Tapper, Richard (1997). Frontier Nomads of Iran: A Political and Social History of the Shahsevan. Cambridge University Press. p. 39. ISBN 978-0521583367. The Safavid Shahs who ruled Iran between 1501 and 1722 descended from Sheikh Safi ad-Din of Ardabil (1252–1334). Sheikh Safi and his immediate successors were renowned as holy ascetics Sufis. Their own origins were obscure; probably of Kurdish or Iranian extraction ...
Again it says probably and still refers that it is obscure.
Moreover, I can add another reference from Roger Savory "Iran Under the Safavids". In page 2 he refers several sources. Let me give brief information what he wrote:
First theory: He refers to Firuzshah the first member of Safavid family which we have historical data/information. Book refers that Firuzshah migrated from Yemen this is indication of arab origin of the family. In fact, Safavi family considered themselves as "Ahli Beyt" in this case this gives link for family being descendent of prophet Muhammad.
Second theory: Safavid are being of turkic origin was stated by David Ayalon. This statement on same book.
The third theory: Safavid family was pure Arian yet they speak Azeri Turkish. This statement made by Kasravi, however, I would like mentioned that he was working during Shah Reza Pahlavi, which tried to justify Iranians to be pure Ayranians and also include Azeris to this list. Hence, statement may be bias but, it still doesn't clearly refer whether Safavid family migrated from Kurdistan.
Forth Theory: Velid Zekki Togan re-examination of Kasravis work stated that the origins of Safavids family "may" have ties to Mamlan Vahsuda, the Ravvadi prince of Kurdish origin.
Conclusion, As you can see all references used to justify the origin of family was Kurdish doesn't state anything directly and clearly says that the origin is obscure. However, most articles in Wikipedia related to Safavid dynasty mention Safavids being Kurdish without any hesitation, which puts wikipedia information biased. I think this points should be reflected in all articles. All articles which says it is Kurdish should be reviewed and changed properly to reflect obscure origin of family, which may be Turkic or Kurdish. Non of this has not proved yet, so far we know family spoke Azeri Turkish and promote this language to court, not kurdish not persian.
Thank you very much for reading this. just want to mention that I spent my 4 hours to write above statement, checking all sources one by one, in order to avoid being bias due to my nationality and sensitivity to this topic. Looking forward for your comments.
Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:24, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran (
talk),
Welcome back. Please justify whey you think descendant of Safavid family is Kurdish. All references provided saying it is Kurdish, doesn't say and uses word of obscure or "may" be.
Regards,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 14:38, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ( talk),
My friend, I don't want to be rude. I am MSc from Imperial College London and I do believe that my English basics are very well. I analyses sources and read referred books and didn't find any statement that says the Safavid family descendants of Kurdish origin. I read all these three books none of them states it, however uses words like "obscure" or "may be". The sentence in below in article is mis interpretation of all these three references.
Ismail was born to Martha and Shaykh Haydar on July 17, 1487 in Ardabil. His father, Haydar, was the sheikh of the Safaviyya Sufi order and a direct descendant of its Kurdish[9][10][11] founder, Safi-ad-din Ardabili (1252–1334).
Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 20:12, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ( talk),
Please read other sources not bring citation from Iranica as I already questioned reliability of this source. I have mentioned source from Iranicaonline which in this case is questionable and not enough to give statement that family descendant was Kurdish as other sources doesn't underpin this as a fact. Iranicaonline is not reliable source. And please also stop making your comments personal ! I am trying to make a healthy discussion here not fight. If you have solid reasoning you are welcome, but attacking me and my competency is not way how we discuss things here.
Sincerely,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 21:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
To the IP that continues to label what he does not like, Cambridge University Press is an acceptable reliable source. Richard Tapper is qualified as a scholar in this field. Continued attempts to label said source(s) will be considered disruptive editing and could lead to you being blocked. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Some of the references do not make any sense. E.g. Anthony Bryer, open citation, p. 136 [20] says the Emperor of Trebizond gave his Christian daughter to a Sufi-Muslim high-priest who had no power or army to even protect himself let alone protecting the Trebizond Empire from the superpower of the world at the time (i.e. Ottomans)!
And what are the odds of the high-priest of a religion marring a woman from another faith (even today in the 21st century)? And then the wife goes to a Muslim country and builds churches and promotes Christianity! Do you know what kind of Shia bashing excuses it would have given to the Sunni Ottomans and 80% of the Iranian population that were Sunnis at the time? They would write 1000s of books about it and would burn the entire Shia community to death!
One look at the location of Trebizond on the map and its distance from Ardabil in Iran is enough to question the sanity of such claims. Use the Google map to check it yourself!
If you come to conclusion that the theory is insane then you must think why a so called historian has put it forward as a historical fact! Fortunately the genetic science can solve these puzzles soon! For the time being we need to rely on the good old method of analogical logic.
http://www.orderofsteugene.com/history/Trebizond.htm
Kiumars Irani ( talk) 19:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Shah Ismail was a definitely Turk. Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this. Already himself wrote Turkish poems and in Turkish culture. And his ethnic origin was Azerbaijani Turkish, he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. How then he was Kurd? Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language! 94.123.98.229 ( talk) 10:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Also to refute your nonsense, "Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language", Persian was the official language of the Safavid dynasty per this source;
Again, you will have to gain consensus for any changes to referenced information. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Ghaznavid Dynasty (Viz language of palace) and other aristocracy, and Ghaznavid army was Turkic speaker. Persian was just official language of correspondence in Ghaznavid.
To suggest otherwise is not scientific. Also Shah İsmail was Turk because he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. Also Shah İsmail was famous for commitment to Turkish culture and govern with Turkish culture. Shah İsmail prased The Turks in own poems and apothegm for example; Sen ey Türk-i peri peyker/Thou fairy-bodied, angel Shapely Turk! And The great ancestor Sheikh Shafi'i of Sah Hatayi his was called on "Piri Turk" / "Turkish Piri".
Shah İsmail Khatai nibs, was underestimated and flouted the identity of the Arab, Kurd and Persian in the face of Turkish identity in own council for example; Yetdükçe tükenir Arab'un kuy u meskeni,/Bağdat içinde her nice TÜRKMAN kopar.//Şirvan halaiki kamu Tebriz'e daşına/Mülk-i Acem sorar ki, kıyamet kaçan kopar?'
Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Then why Turkish rahter than Persian words in Urdu, for than reason Ghaznavids spoke Persian?! Also sources is not reliable about that he was the Kurdish origin. There are even dead link. Shah İsmail prased The Turks in own poems and apothegm therefore was Kurdish descent or The great ancestor Sheikh Shafi'i of Sah Hatayi his was called on "Piri Turk" / "Turkish Piri". therefore was Kurdish descent or Shah İsmail Khatai nibs, was underestimated and flouted the identity of the Arab, Kurd and Persian in the face of Turkish identity in own council therefore was Kurdish descent?(!) Erim Turukku ( talk) 18:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Source about Ghaznavid is not fake. And also everything in the middle. If you continue to call the Cambridge University sources and other sources listed as "not reliable" then you simply label yourself as a POV pusher. Shah İsmail was Turk, Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this. You can look at other language's Wikipedias Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I asked you to discuss the changes you were performing on the talk page before performing the same change. Care to explain why you removed the source from Britannica, and "A History of Asia: Formations of Civilizations, From Antiquity to 1600" and instead replaced it with "Xoндeмиp, 'т.III, ч.4, c.570-571, 599-601, Шapaф-xaн Бидлиcи, т.ц c.169"? Best, -- Spivorg ( talk) 21:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Anonim.lion, you have recently begun to remove the Persian name of Ismail, change Iran with Azerbaijan, what is your reasons for that? do you have any reliable source which calls the Safavids as the king of Azerbaijan, and what are your reasons for removing the Persian name of Ismail? take a look on the sources on the lead of the Safavid dynasty, i don't see the information (which has sources on it) being called a Azerbaijani Empire. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 09:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Seyyed ( talk · contribs) 19:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
This article is clearly incomplete and does not cover major aspects of Ismail's life. More information should be added regarding the following issues:
I hope you can add all of these information in the article.
There is no any improvement in the past 10 days. Thus, the article is failed.
GA nomination failed.-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:03, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Along with off topic additions to this article, DurChalen also is perpetrating original research.
"In 1514,
Afonso de Albuquerque succeeded in constructing the Portuguese Fort in Ormuz."
Britannica states, "In 1514 the Portuguese captured Hormuz and built a fort. For more than a century the island remained Portuguese..."
No mention of Afonso and no mention of how this has anything to do with Ismail I. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
22:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
please change ((Persian)) to ((Persian language|Persian))
c. 1488 C.E. in the remote frotress down 1,200+ km in Estakhr in the region of Fars. That is a vital information in my opinion. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 07:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
I added the physical appearance of the Shah as a separate paragraph. Didn't want to mingle on the Origin, or the Life paragraph. My edits are being examined by my mentor @ Irondome: Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 07:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Shah Ismail Khatai was one of the first notable persons in the history to use Azerbaijani language in literature, with his notable works including 1400 verses and books such as "Nasihatname" and "Dahname" in Azerbaijani language. Also he was born, lived most of his life and died in Azerbaijan, and his mother tongue was Azerbaijani. In my opinion, these facts suffice to pay tribute to this remarkable person's love to his mother tongue and to include his name in the intro in his mother tongue as well. It's sad to see that someone is reluctant to do it. I consider the argument that "he may also have had Kurdish ancestry, so then if one mentions his name in Azerbaijani, they should mention his name in Kurdish as well" poor attempt to hide his importance for the history and literature of Azerbaijan. Dear fellow mates, please consider to revert back my edit from 18:24, 27 October 2018. -- Guardian of the Divine RabbiT ( talk) 01:19, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Aykhan Zayedzadeh, your words sound like a pan Turk irredentist :
Would suggest you to read a little more about geopolitics kid and keep in mind that your POV in only your POV and is not considered as a reliable source on Wikipedia.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:21, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
"Let's be honest here, people like Wikaviani are the ones who claim that "Azeri"s are part of the Iranic ethnolinguistic family" Since you've decided to be "honest", please tell me where i've said that "Azeris are part of the Iranic ethnolinguistic family" ? otherwise, this comment qualifies as a second personal attack toward me (You've been warned by Kansas Bear for the first one). For your information, accusations about personal behaviour that lack evidence qualifies as a personal attack. Don't get me wrong, don't attack me again, or i'll find an admin to step in and take a look at your behaviour toward other users. Done with you here.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
My edit puting Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijan language also deleted by user talk. Reading this discussion and my interaction with this user I see that he is not neutral against Azerbaijani users and always takes side of Persian users. I will raise it to discussion.
Why my reference and text was deleted by someone regarding Azerbaijani Turkic being official language during Shah Ismael time? This is clearly mentioned in WikiPedia page /info/en/?search=Azerbaijani_language >> History and evolution >> Second paragraph
Turkic language of Azerbaijan gradually supplanted the Iranian languages in what is now northern Iran, and a variety of languages of the Caucasus and Iranian languages spoken in the Caucasus, particularly Udi and Old Azeri. By the beginning of the 16th century, it had become the dominant language of the region, and was a spoken language in the court of the Safavids and Afsharids.
Why some people trying to cover this fact making Wikipedia bias?
I purpose to add this fact to this scholar, And edit below part
Ismail was also a prolific poet who, under the pen name Khaṭāʾī (which means "he who made a mistake" or "he who was wrong" in Persian), contributed greatly to the literary development of the Azerbaijani language.[7] He also contributed to Persian literature, though few of his Persian writings survive.
to>>
Ismail was also a prolific poet who, under the pen name Khaṭāʾī (which means "he who made a mistake" or "he who was wrong" in Persian), contributed greatly to the literary development of the Azerbaijani language.[7] Starting from him, Azerbaijani Turkic language was spoken language in court of Safavids and eventually this was followed by Afsharids. He also contributed to Persian literature, though few of his Persian writings survive.
I think this proves other information in Wikipedia page and doesn't contradict to any issue and makes this article unbiased. Mirhasanov ( talk) 18:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Reference about king palace was speaking Turkish language :
A PEPYS OF MOGUL INDIA l653-1708 BEING AN ABRIDGED EDITION OF THE "STORIA DO MOGOR " OF NICCOLAO MANUCCI TRANSLATED BY WILLIAM IRVINE (ABRIDGED EDITION PREPARED BY MARGARET L. IRVINE), THE NEGOTIATIONS FAIL page 19
Mirhasanov (
talk)
07:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
The edit was completed √
Since he established Safavid dynasty rule in Iran at the beginning of 16th centre, Azerbaijani Turkic language started to be spoken language in court [1] of Safavids and eventually this tradition was followed by Afsharids. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Please anyone who will try revert it back talk under this section and justify your change. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Content was vandalized by IP 89.165.69.40 removing reference. Hence, I am adding reference back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi HistoryofIran,
Thanks for your comment. If you thing it is POV you can go the reference book which is published by University of Cambridge. I am more than happy to discuss it and solve. This this main reason why I have opened this session here in "Talk" tab.
Regards, Mirhasanov ( talk) 22:30, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for comment. Could you please give more clarification why do you thing that the source I provided is not reliable. This is memories/chronicles that was written by Niccolao Manucci during his visit to Iran and India.
let me give a brief information about Manucci. NICCOLAO MANUCCI, the hero of our narrative, ran away from Venice in 1653, being then fourteen. He hid on board a vessel bound for Smyrna, and was fortunate enough to find a protector in a certain Viscount Bellomont, an English nobleman, then on his way to Persia and India. He followed Bellomont through Asia Minor to Persia, and from Persia to India, meeting with many adventures by sea and land. The sudden death of his master near Hodal, in 1656, left Manucci friendless in a strange land.
If you will read, Persia The Shah's banquet Interview with 'Azamat-ud-daulah, his reply on behalf of the King Negotiations fail, part from book you will see that resource is true and can be used as a reference.
https://www.nytimes.com/1914/08/09/archives/pepys-of-india-curious-memoirs-of-the-venetian-dr-manucci-a-pepys.html - Information about book publised by NY times in 1914.
I even can send you a link to download this book or you can find it by yourself in google. This is publication of university of California Library and there are tons of reference to this book, and you are stating that it is not reliable source?
Looking forward for more constructive negotiation. I don't want it to turn edit war as I am trying to justify my edit in a proper way with references.
Thanks and Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 23:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
My friend. In a respect to you and our time since I haven't got any consolidated answer from your side regarding my source being fake, could you please confirm that you we mutually agree on this subject so I can proceed with the change.
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
( talk)
My friend stating that it is not reliable source doesn't means that you are right. You are just another user like me. I have checked RS requirements and this source fulfils all of them. Moreover, the topic related to Feyzullah mirza Qajar is different which I will come back to it later. Firstly, I want solve this then I will come back more and more researches to prove that the is Turkic and content must be there.
Mirhasanov ( talk) 09:34, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi LouisAragon ( talk),
Could you please justify why you removed my note about Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijani Turkish? Is there any reason why it shouldn't be there? and My I know why I didn't get notice? My actions are proper and I properly reason my edit, unfortunately some users don't, but somehow they got support due to them being more organized in reporting.
Seems like you also involved, so please justify why you removed my note Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijan and why you mention my edits as RV to create fake illusion that I am vandalizing or doing edit war? Is this fair way of discussion?
Regards,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 22:25, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
References
I added information with with authoritative sources. What is the problem in my edits? SaHiB.SHaKHaYeV ( talk) 15:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
HistoryofIran, what do you mean by "irrelevant"? It is clearly related to his legacy. And what is "nonsense"?? Remember that you can't revert because you just don't like it. NMW03 ( talk) 21:19, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove The government of the Azerbaijan Republic is well known for claiming all sort of bogus things in order to legitimize its pseudo-historic attempts at rewriting history. See Historical_negationism#Azerbaijan. This is nothing new, and is attested in dozens of WP:RS sources written by Western academics. Wikipedia should not kow-tow to such attempts. I might add that I find user:NMW03's attempts at throwing " WP:JDL" straight off the bat at user:HistoryofIran when confronted with sound logic a pretty serious violation of WP:BATTLE and WP:PERSONAL. - LouisAragon ( talk) 14:12, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove: It's important to note here that it's not our job to decide which claims about the subject are true or false. That's the job of
reliable sources; our job is just to follow those. We need to consider two things here: reliability and due weight. With regard to reliability, along the lines of
AboutSelf, the website for the Azerbaijani government is a reliable source for its own (attributed) positions, an umbrella under which the statement By the Decision No. 211... Ismail's works were... declared state property in the Republic of Azerbaijan
falls neatly. However, it seems that right now it would be placing
undue weight on the declaration to include this sentence at the moment, as I haven't been able to find any independent RS coverage (or any coverage at all, for that matter) of the declaration. This concern is amplified by the fact that this article is not directly related to the Azerbaijani government, and that
AboutSelf warns against including unduly self-serving
claims. If I'm mistaken, and there has been independent coverage of this declaration, then my !vote could shift towards inclusion.
Srey Sros
talk
17:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC) (
Summoned by bot)
Remove: In assessing the suitability of the source (of the one which was provided for that "latest inclusion"), we should consider a number of aspects for the purposes of research: editorial oversight, attributability, expertise of the originator with respect to the subject, bias of the originator with respect to the subject, topic specific criteria and etc. In my opinion, an article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. In general, a common sense is required to determine what sources to use and the common sense tells me to cast my vote for remove as per WP:RSUW and WP:CSB. -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire 05:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove Wikipedia goes with what published reliable sources say.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
@ GenoV84: I think I should start by pointing out that I wasn't practicing my editing skills on this article. I have been on Wikipedia for a decade, and I have never vandalized or changed information on a page out of pleasure. In short, I find the diacritics to be distracting and unhelpful. And I'm not entirely sure if WP:MOSAR applies here. First of all, the manual of style is a guideline and not a policy, so there's no need to strictly follow it. In fact, many pages don't. Persian speakers use the Arabic alphabet while writing words down but the pronunciation varies drastically. In your edit summary you mentioned I should check pages that contain Arabic script. Well, I had already done that. Based on your logic of using strict transliteration, pages such as Karbala would have needed to constantly use the Karbalāʾ variation of the word in the text, which is not the case. Per WP:MOSAR, which you appear to be following, "common English translations should be used as much as possible". This Google Ngram shows way more hits for Ismail I than Ismā'īl I, so your argument that the latter is more common does not hold up. And the articles about other Persian kings do not contain any of the diacritics that are being utilized here, so there's the lack of consistency as well. Keivan.f Talk 18:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai is an Azerbaijani Turk, there are many articles about it, but you deny it. Shah Ismayil Khatai's grandfather was Uzun Hasan, one of the rulers of Uzun Hasana Aggoyunlu state and Azerbaijan Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Why is there no transcription into Azerbaijani if Azerbaijani was literally his native language? HistoreIsmail ( talk) 19:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The mans father is not KURDISH. He is a turcoman tribe leader. please correct this. also fathers middle name is OKTAY, which is itself a TURKIC name Bojinho1990 ( talk) 05:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In popular culture
Games
Ismail has been as hero unit and a campaign in Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition - The Mountain Royals Dlc.
source: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Ismail Arthur of Brazil ( talk) 16:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil was born in the city of Ardabil. He is of Turkish origin. He had his own Azeri Turkish. He wrote many works in this language. There is no evidence that he is a Kurd. All this shows that he is a Turk. 109.127.41.99 ( talk) 02:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Where are the sources to confirm that the Safavid state that Ismail founded would inevitably lead to conflict between clergy and nobility? What religious leaders? This paragraph should be removed or substantiated. 31.94.4.61 ( talk) 05:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
M.Bitton (
talk)
17:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ismail I article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Ismail I was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (July 30, 2014). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Safavid dynasty was copied or moved into Ismail I with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Migboy123 ( talk • contribs) 09:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai is the son of a Turk, and there are many articles about this, please look at those articles Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:12, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai's grandfather was Uzun Hasan Hasan. Uzun Hasan was the ruler of the Aggoyunlu state, how can it be that someone whose father and grandfather are Turks becomes a Persian or a Kurd?Please correct it. Shah Ismayil Khatai is the Shah of Azerbaijan Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
I have reverted 3 edits by 2 IPs, deleting sources and infos. Tājik ( talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
According to the Gumilyov L. (Bosphere and Etnogenesis of the Earth, Moscow, 2001) Shah ismail has purely turkic origin and his native language was Azerbaijani turkish. Therefore, He wrote in Azerbaijani turkish. Dear TAJIK, You have written that According to Minorsky Shah Ismail was bilingual at birth. Firstly, It must be shame for all of us, to say about Shah Ismail bilingual. Secondly, the Idea of Minorsky cannot be used here as a criteria. Therefore, I delete "Minorsky". Shah Ismail HAS TURKISH DIVAN and everybody knows that it was his native language.
In Life and Political History section it writes: Baghdad and the holy Shi'a shrines of Najaf and Karbala were seized from the Ottoman Turks, lost and reconquered again.
I think this sentence must be revised. Ismail died in 1524. Iraq had never been a part of Ottoman Empire before 1524. Iraq was annexed by Ottoman Empire in 1534 , ten years after Ismail's death. So there was no conquest and reconquest of Iraq from Ottoman Empire. In fact, Ismail conquered Iraq from Murat Bey of Akkoyunlu Turkmens in 1508 Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 13:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The text in the article now states that he was bilingual 'at birth'. Did he start speaking two different languages the moment he came out of his mother? If so, she might have been somewhat distressed. I think what is meant is either "his household was bilingual" or "he grew up bilingual".
70.18.16.154 ( talk) 07:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I did my best but could not find the Doerfer's article about the meaning of Khatā'ī . I think it may also be related to Khitan people that in Persian language it is written as Khatā'ī . -- Alborz Fallah ( talk) 16:17, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I detected Ethnocentric attempt by User:Lysozym and User:Xashaiar. Those edits: A, B etc. are POV pushing. It's very clear that their attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. However this is historical fact. At first, Ismail became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the shah of all of Iran. OK ?POV pushing edit. It's very clear your attempt is to remove the term of Shah of Azerbaijan. This is historical fact. First of all, he became the "Shah of Azerbaijan". And then he became the "Shah Iran". Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 10:52, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 11:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Shah Ismael was Shah of Iran not Persia. Why when I read wikipedia it states as him Shah of Persia?? I suggest to delete it. My source is
Savory, "The Safavid State and Polity", p. 214 for Roemer's comments; ibid., pp. 206—8, for further examples from Iskandar MunshI showing that Iran was viewed by that historian as a positive entity or state.
The_Cambridge_History_of_Iran_Volume_6 page 352. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
I was alerted that someone had changed all of the male pronouns to female. So I changed back, her to his, she to he, girl to boy, daughter to son. The problem is that in some passages it's not clear which is correct as a few of the people were female. Any knowledgeable person who can read through the sections and correctly align the pronouns with the individuals is welcome to make changes to the article.
Particularly confusing is this passage: "His father, Martha, was the son of Uzun Hasan by his Pontic Greek husband Theodora, better known as Despina Khatun.[6] Theodora was the son of Empress John IV of Trebizond. (He had married Uzun Hassan in a deal to protect Trebizond from the Ottomans.[7]) Ismail grew up bilingual, speaking Persian and Azeri.[8][9]" I have no idea whether husband, son, father are correct or were also incorrectly changed.
Thank you! Ocaasi t | c 22:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
A short explanation for that sided claims.-- 83.66.126.43 ( talk) 12:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8usSxFs8Eo&feature=relmfu
Shah Ismayil Khatai and Yavuz Sultan Selim's talks were in Turkish They spoke Turkish because their roots were Turkish. There are several articles about this Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
It wrongly states that Ismail converted Iran from sunni Islam to Ismaili shia Islam, which is wrong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.143.179.68 ( talk) 07:12, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Kurdish root of Ismail have presented in only one historical resource but many others are rejecting this claim. I think, the most valuable resource about identity of Ismail is his "divan". He used to so pure Turkish in his divan. The only one claim can not be acceptable for mark him as "Kurdish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.51.158 ( talk) 11:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Dears
Kansas Bear,
IamNotU,
I have objection to below statement, as I see a tendency last 7 years trying to make Shah Ismael Kurdish, which I would like to justify.
"Ismail was born to Martha and Shaykh Haydar on July 17, 1487 in Ardabil. His father, Haydar, was the sheikh of the Safaviyya Sufi order and a direct descendant of its Kurdish[9][10][11] founder, Safi-ad-din Ardabili (1252–1334).".
First I will star from sources where it says that the origin of Sayx Safi ad-Din is obscure however, in this article it was used as reference to justify that he was Kurdish:
"Peter B. Golden: An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples; In: Osman Karatay, Ankara 2002, p.321" - reference 19 in this article.
This citation was published by Peter B. Golden in researchgate. I went through the scholar and couldn't find any statement that clearly says that the founder of Safavi order was Kurdish. Citation was published in 1992, I was unable find any information that suggest it was edited in 2002. Even in his official page in researchgate there is no information about this citation being re published in 2002.
"The Safavids derived from Sayx Safi ad-Din (1252-1334), the founder of a Sunnî ~ûfi order. His origins are obscure, perhaps Kurdish or Türkmen. (page 371) - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281319978_An_Introduction_to_the_History_of_the_Turkic_Peoples published by Harrassowitz Verlag
Osman Karatay, Ankara 2002 - is reference to translation of the book by Osman Karatay in 2002 ( https://dergipark.org.tr/en/pub/iutarih/issue/9612/120071) . If this book refers Sufi order being Kurdish not obscure as it mentioned in original citation, the source can't be considered reliable.
Secondly, the reference number [10] Savory 1997, p. 8. - My question to you guys, is it right way to refer something, as reference is completely not clear. It refers to Encyclopædia Iranica. Is it right to refer some sites which is opened by Iranian Foundation or founded by Iranian foundation? It is like me using links and resources from Azerbaijan Research Centre. Don't you think it will be biased information? Moreover, reference to link doesn't contain enough information to justify he was Kurdish, it just says that during Shah Ismael and Tahmasib time Ṣafwat al-ṣafā revised to obscure the Kurdish origins of the Safavid family and to vindicate their claim to descent from the Imams. Is it enough to justify history? One sentence? Open question to you guys whether this reference is valid or not.
The third reference number [9] Tapper, Richard (1997). Frontier Nomads of Iran: A Political and Social History of the Shahsevan. Cambridge University Press. p. 39. ISBN 978-0521583367. The Safavid Shahs who ruled Iran between 1501 and 1722 descended from Sheikh Safi ad-Din of Ardabil (1252–1334). Sheikh Safi and his immediate successors were renowned as holy ascetics Sufis. Their own origins were obscure; probably of Kurdish or Iranian extraction ...
Again it says probably and still refers that it is obscure.
Moreover, I can add another reference from Roger Savory "Iran Under the Safavids". In page 2 he refers several sources. Let me give brief information what he wrote:
First theory: He refers to Firuzshah the first member of Safavid family which we have historical data/information. Book refers that Firuzshah migrated from Yemen this is indication of arab origin of the family. In fact, Safavi family considered themselves as "Ahli Beyt" in this case this gives link for family being descendent of prophet Muhammad.
Second theory: Safavid are being of turkic origin was stated by David Ayalon. This statement on same book.
The third theory: Safavid family was pure Arian yet they speak Azeri Turkish. This statement made by Kasravi, however, I would like mentioned that he was working during Shah Reza Pahlavi, which tried to justify Iranians to be pure Ayranians and also include Azeris to this list. Hence, statement may be bias but, it still doesn't clearly refer whether Safavid family migrated from Kurdistan.
Forth Theory: Velid Zekki Togan re-examination of Kasravis work stated that the origins of Safavids family "may" have ties to Mamlan Vahsuda, the Ravvadi prince of Kurdish origin.
Conclusion, As you can see all references used to justify the origin of family was Kurdish doesn't state anything directly and clearly says that the origin is obscure. However, most articles in Wikipedia related to Safavid dynasty mention Safavids being Kurdish without any hesitation, which puts wikipedia information biased. I think this points should be reflected in all articles. All articles which says it is Kurdish should be reviewed and changed properly to reflect obscure origin of family, which may be Turkic or Kurdish. Non of this has not proved yet, so far we know family spoke Azeri Turkish and promote this language to court, not kurdish not persian.
Thank you very much for reading this. just want to mention that I spent my 4 hours to write above statement, checking all sources one by one, in order to avoid being bias due to my nationality and sensitivity to this topic. Looking forward for your comments.
Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:24, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran (
talk),
Welcome back. Please justify whey you think descendant of Safavid family is Kurdish. All references provided saying it is Kurdish, doesn't say and uses word of obscure or "may" be.
Regards,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 14:38, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ( talk),
My friend, I don't want to be rude. I am MSc from Imperial College London and I do believe that my English basics are very well. I analyses sources and read referred books and didn't find any statement that says the Safavid family descendants of Kurdish origin. I read all these three books none of them states it, however uses words like "obscure" or "may be". The sentence in below in article is mis interpretation of all these three references.
Ismail was born to Martha and Shaykh Haydar on July 17, 1487 in Ardabil. His father, Haydar, was the sheikh of the Safaviyya Sufi order and a direct descendant of its Kurdish[9][10][11] founder, Safi-ad-din Ardabili (1252–1334).
Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 20:12, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
HistoryofIran ( talk),
Please read other sources not bring citation from Iranica as I already questioned reliability of this source. I have mentioned source from Iranicaonline which in this case is questionable and not enough to give statement that family descendant was Kurdish as other sources doesn't underpin this as a fact. Iranicaonline is not reliable source. And please also stop making your comments personal ! I am trying to make a healthy discussion here not fight. If you have solid reasoning you are welcome, but attacking me and my competency is not way how we discuss things here.
Sincerely,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 21:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
To the IP that continues to label what he does not like, Cambridge University Press is an acceptable reliable source. Richard Tapper is qualified as a scholar in this field. Continued attempts to label said source(s) will be considered disruptive editing and could lead to you being blocked. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Some of the references do not make any sense. E.g. Anthony Bryer, open citation, p. 136 [20] says the Emperor of Trebizond gave his Christian daughter to a Sufi-Muslim high-priest who had no power or army to even protect himself let alone protecting the Trebizond Empire from the superpower of the world at the time (i.e. Ottomans)!
And what are the odds of the high-priest of a religion marring a woman from another faith (even today in the 21st century)? And then the wife goes to a Muslim country and builds churches and promotes Christianity! Do you know what kind of Shia bashing excuses it would have given to the Sunni Ottomans and 80% of the Iranian population that were Sunnis at the time? They would write 1000s of books about it and would burn the entire Shia community to death!
One look at the location of Trebizond on the map and its distance from Ardabil in Iran is enough to question the sanity of such claims. Use the Google map to check it yourself!
If you come to conclusion that the theory is insane then you must think why a so called historian has put it forward as a historical fact! Fortunately the genetic science can solve these puzzles soon! For the time being we need to rely on the good old method of analogical logic.
http://www.orderofsteugene.com/history/Trebizond.htm
Kiumars Irani ( talk) 19:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Shah Ismail was a definitely Turk. Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this. Already himself wrote Turkish poems and in Turkish culture. And his ethnic origin was Azerbaijani Turkish, he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. How then he was Kurd? Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language! 94.123.98.229 ( talk) 10:58, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Also to refute your nonsense, "Also Safavid State was famous for ruled with Turkish culture and used Turkish Language", Persian was the official language of the Safavid dynasty per this source;
Again, you will have to gain consensus for any changes to referenced information. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Ghaznavid Dynasty (Viz language of palace) and other aristocracy, and Ghaznavid army was Turkic speaker. Persian was just official language of correspondence in Ghaznavid.
To suggest otherwise is not scientific. Also Shah İsmail was Turk because he was born in Turkish city Ardabil. Ardabil's the entire population is completely Turk. Also Shah İsmail was famous for commitment to Turkish culture and govern with Turkish culture. Shah İsmail prased The Turks in own poems and apothegm for example; Sen ey Türk-i peri peyker/Thou fairy-bodied, angel Shapely Turk! And The great ancestor Sheikh Shafi'i of Sah Hatayi his was called on "Piri Turk" / "Turkish Piri".
Shah İsmail Khatai nibs, was underestimated and flouted the identity of the Arab, Kurd and Persian in the face of Turkish identity in own council for example; Yetdükçe tükenir Arab'un kuy u meskeni,/Bağdat içinde her nice TÜRKMAN kopar.//Şirvan halaiki kamu Tebriz'e daşına/Mülk-i Acem sorar ki, kıyamet kaçan kopar?'
Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Then why Turkish rahter than Persian words in Urdu, for than reason Ghaznavids spoke Persian?! Also sources is not reliable about that he was the Kurdish origin. There are even dead link. Shah İsmail prased The Turks in own poems and apothegm therefore was Kurdish descent or The great ancestor Sheikh Shafi'i of Sah Hatayi his was called on "Piri Turk" / "Turkish Piri". therefore was Kurdish descent or Shah İsmail Khatai nibs, was underestimated and flouted the identity of the Arab, Kurd and Persian in the face of Turkish identity in own council therefore was Kurdish descent?(!) Erim Turukku ( talk) 18:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Source about Ghaznavid is not fake. And also everything in the middle. If you continue to call the Cambridge University sources and other sources listed as "not reliable" then you simply label yourself as a POV pusher. Shah İsmail was Turk, Accepted view in the everywhere world is like this. You can look at other language's Wikipedias Erim Turukku ( talk) 13:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I asked you to discuss the changes you were performing on the talk page before performing the same change. Care to explain why you removed the source from Britannica, and "A History of Asia: Formations of Civilizations, From Antiquity to 1600" and instead replaced it with "Xoндeмиp, 'т.III, ч.4, c.570-571, 599-601, Шapaф-xaн Бидлиcи, т.ц c.169"? Best, -- Spivorg ( talk) 21:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Anonim.lion, you have recently begun to remove the Persian name of Ismail, change Iran with Azerbaijan, what is your reasons for that? do you have any reliable source which calls the Safavids as the king of Azerbaijan, and what are your reasons for removing the Persian name of Ismail? take a look on the sources on the lead of the Safavid dynasty, i don't see the information (which has sources on it) being called a Azerbaijani Empire. -- Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust ( talk) 09:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Seyyed ( talk · contribs) 19:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
This article is clearly incomplete and does not cover major aspects of Ismail's life. More information should be added regarding the following issues:
I hope you can add all of these information in the article.
There is no any improvement in the past 10 days. Thus, the article is failed.
GA nomination failed.-- Seyyed( t- c) 09:03, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Along with off topic additions to this article, DurChalen also is perpetrating original research.
"In 1514,
Afonso de Albuquerque succeeded in constructing the Portuguese Fort in Ormuz."
Britannica states, "In 1514 the Portuguese captured Hormuz and built a fort. For more than a century the island remained Portuguese..."
No mention of Afonso and no mention of how this has anything to do with Ismail I. --
Kansas Bear (
talk)
22:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
please change ((Persian)) to ((Persian language|Persian))
c. 1488 C.E. in the remote frotress down 1,200+ km in Estakhr in the region of Fars. That is a vital information in my opinion. Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 07:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
I added the physical appearance of the Shah as a separate paragraph. Didn't want to mingle on the Origin, or the Life paragraph. My edits are being examined by my mentor @ Irondome: Alexis Ivanov ( talk) 07:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Shah Ismail Khatai was one of the first notable persons in the history to use Azerbaijani language in literature, with his notable works including 1400 verses and books such as "Nasihatname" and "Dahname" in Azerbaijani language. Also he was born, lived most of his life and died in Azerbaijan, and his mother tongue was Azerbaijani. In my opinion, these facts suffice to pay tribute to this remarkable person's love to his mother tongue and to include his name in the intro in his mother tongue as well. It's sad to see that someone is reluctant to do it. I consider the argument that "he may also have had Kurdish ancestry, so then if one mentions his name in Azerbaijani, they should mention his name in Kurdish as well" poor attempt to hide his importance for the history and literature of Azerbaijan. Dear fellow mates, please consider to revert back my edit from 18:24, 27 October 2018. -- Guardian of the Divine RabbiT ( talk) 01:19, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
Aykhan Zayedzadeh, your words sound like a pan Turk irredentist :
Would suggest you to read a little more about geopolitics kid and keep in mind that your POV in only your POV and is not considered as a reliable source on Wikipedia.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:21, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
"Let's be honest here, people like Wikaviani are the ones who claim that "Azeri"s are part of the Iranic ethnolinguistic family" Since you've decided to be "honest", please tell me where i've said that "Azeris are part of the Iranic ethnolinguistic family" ? otherwise, this comment qualifies as a second personal attack toward me (You've been warned by Kansas Bear for the first one). For your information, accusations about personal behaviour that lack evidence qualifies as a personal attack. Don't get me wrong, don't attack me again, or i'll find an admin to step in and take a look at your behaviour toward other users. Done with you here.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 21:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
My edit puting Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijan language also deleted by user talk. Reading this discussion and my interaction with this user I see that he is not neutral against Azerbaijani users and always takes side of Persian users. I will raise it to discussion.
Why my reference and text was deleted by someone regarding Azerbaijani Turkic being official language during Shah Ismael time? This is clearly mentioned in WikiPedia page /info/en/?search=Azerbaijani_language >> History and evolution >> Second paragraph
Turkic language of Azerbaijan gradually supplanted the Iranian languages in what is now northern Iran, and a variety of languages of the Caucasus and Iranian languages spoken in the Caucasus, particularly Udi and Old Azeri. By the beginning of the 16th century, it had become the dominant language of the region, and was a spoken language in the court of the Safavids and Afsharids.
Why some people trying to cover this fact making Wikipedia bias?
I purpose to add this fact to this scholar, And edit below part
Ismail was also a prolific poet who, under the pen name Khaṭāʾī (which means "he who made a mistake" or "he who was wrong" in Persian), contributed greatly to the literary development of the Azerbaijani language.[7] He also contributed to Persian literature, though few of his Persian writings survive.
to>>
Ismail was also a prolific poet who, under the pen name Khaṭāʾī (which means "he who made a mistake" or "he who was wrong" in Persian), contributed greatly to the literary development of the Azerbaijani language.[7] Starting from him, Azerbaijani Turkic language was spoken language in court of Safavids and eventually this was followed by Afsharids. He also contributed to Persian literature, though few of his Persian writings survive.
I think this proves other information in Wikipedia page and doesn't contradict to any issue and makes this article unbiased. Mirhasanov ( talk) 18:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Reference about king palace was speaking Turkish language :
A PEPYS OF MOGUL INDIA l653-1708 BEING AN ABRIDGED EDITION OF THE "STORIA DO MOGOR " OF NICCOLAO MANUCCI TRANSLATED BY WILLIAM IRVINE (ABRIDGED EDITION PREPARED BY MARGARET L. IRVINE), THE NEGOTIATIONS FAIL page 19
Mirhasanov (
talk)
07:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
The edit was completed √
Since he established Safavid dynasty rule in Iran at the beginning of 16th centre, Azerbaijani Turkic language started to be spoken language in court [1] of Safavids and eventually this tradition was followed by Afsharids. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Please anyone who will try revert it back talk under this section and justify your change. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Content was vandalized by IP 89.165.69.40 removing reference. Hence, I am adding reference back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirhasanov ( talk • contribs) 09:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi HistoryofIran,
Thanks for your comment. If you thing it is POV you can go the reference book which is published by University of Cambridge. I am more than happy to discuss it and solve. This this main reason why I have opened this session here in "Talk" tab.
Regards, Mirhasanov ( talk) 22:30, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for comment. Could you please give more clarification why do you thing that the source I provided is not reliable. This is memories/chronicles that was written by Niccolao Manucci during his visit to Iran and India.
let me give a brief information about Manucci. NICCOLAO MANUCCI, the hero of our narrative, ran away from Venice in 1653, being then fourteen. He hid on board a vessel bound for Smyrna, and was fortunate enough to find a protector in a certain Viscount Bellomont, an English nobleman, then on his way to Persia and India. He followed Bellomont through Asia Minor to Persia, and from Persia to India, meeting with many adventures by sea and land. The sudden death of his master near Hodal, in 1656, left Manucci friendless in a strange land.
If you will read, Persia The Shah's banquet Interview with 'Azamat-ud-daulah, his reply on behalf of the King Negotiations fail, part from book you will see that resource is true and can be used as a reference.
https://www.nytimes.com/1914/08/09/archives/pepys-of-india-curious-memoirs-of-the-venetian-dr-manucci-a-pepys.html - Information about book publised by NY times in 1914.
I even can send you a link to download this book or you can find it by yourself in google. This is publication of university of California Library and there are tons of reference to this book, and you are stating that it is not reliable source?
Looking forward for more constructive negotiation. I don't want it to turn edit war as I am trying to justify my edit in a proper way with references.
Thanks and Sincerely, Mirhasanov ( talk) 23:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
My friend. In a respect to you and our time since I haven't got any consolidated answer from your side regarding my source being fake, could you please confirm that you we mutually agree on this subject so I can proceed with the change.
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
( talk)
My friend stating that it is not reliable source doesn't means that you are right. You are just another user like me. I have checked RS requirements and this source fulfils all of them. Moreover, the topic related to Feyzullah mirza Qajar is different which I will come back to it later. Firstly, I want solve this then I will come back more and more researches to prove that the is Turkic and content must be there.
Mirhasanov ( talk) 09:34, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
Hi LouisAragon ( talk),
Could you please justify why you removed my note about Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijani Turkish? Is there any reason why it shouldn't be there? and My I know why I didn't get notice? My actions are proper and I properly reason my edit, unfortunately some users don't, but somehow they got support due to them being more organized in reporting.
Seems like you also involved, so please justify why you removed my note Shah Ismael's name in Azerbaijan and why you mention my edits as RV to create fake illusion that I am vandalizing or doing edit war? Is this fair way of discussion?
Regards,
Mirhasanov ( talk) 22:25, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
References
I added information with with authoritative sources. What is the problem in my edits? SaHiB.SHaKHaYeV ( talk) 15:28, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
HistoryofIran, what do you mean by "irrelevant"? It is clearly related to his legacy. And what is "nonsense"?? Remember that you can't revert because you just don't like it. NMW03 ( talk) 21:19, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove The government of the Azerbaijan Republic is well known for claiming all sort of bogus things in order to legitimize its pseudo-historic attempts at rewriting history. See Historical_negationism#Azerbaijan. This is nothing new, and is attested in dozens of WP:RS sources written by Western academics. Wikipedia should not kow-tow to such attempts. I might add that I find user:NMW03's attempts at throwing " WP:JDL" straight off the bat at user:HistoryofIran when confronted with sound logic a pretty serious violation of WP:BATTLE and WP:PERSONAL. - LouisAragon ( talk) 14:12, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove: It's important to note here that it's not our job to decide which claims about the subject are true or false. That's the job of
reliable sources; our job is just to follow those. We need to consider two things here: reliability and due weight. With regard to reliability, along the lines of
AboutSelf, the website for the Azerbaijani government is a reliable source for its own (attributed) positions, an umbrella under which the statement By the Decision No. 211... Ismail's works were... declared state property in the Republic of Azerbaijan
falls neatly. However, it seems that right now it would be placing
undue weight on the declaration to include this sentence at the moment, as I haven't been able to find any independent RS coverage (or any coverage at all, for that matter) of the declaration. This concern is amplified by the fact that this article is not directly related to the Azerbaijani government, and that
AboutSelf warns against including unduly self-serving
claims. If I'm mistaken, and there has been independent coverage of this declaration, then my !vote could shift towards inclusion.
Srey Sros
talk
17:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC) (
Summoned by bot)
Remove: In assessing the suitability of the source (of the one which was provided for that "latest inclusion"), we should consider a number of aspects for the purposes of research: editorial oversight, attributability, expertise of the originator with respect to the subject, bias of the originator with respect to the subject, topic specific criteria and etc. In my opinion, an article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. In general, a common sense is required to determine what sources to use and the common sense tells me to cast my vote for remove as per WP:RSUW and WP:CSB. -- Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire 05:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Remove Wikipedia goes with what published reliable sources say.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 13:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
@ GenoV84: I think I should start by pointing out that I wasn't practicing my editing skills on this article. I have been on Wikipedia for a decade, and I have never vandalized or changed information on a page out of pleasure. In short, I find the diacritics to be distracting and unhelpful. And I'm not entirely sure if WP:MOSAR applies here. First of all, the manual of style is a guideline and not a policy, so there's no need to strictly follow it. In fact, many pages don't. Persian speakers use the Arabic alphabet while writing words down but the pronunciation varies drastically. In your edit summary you mentioned I should check pages that contain Arabic script. Well, I had already done that. Based on your logic of using strict transliteration, pages such as Karbala would have needed to constantly use the Karbalāʾ variation of the word in the text, which is not the case. Per WP:MOSAR, which you appear to be following, "common English translations should be used as much as possible". This Google Ngram shows way more hits for Ismail I than Ismā'īl I, so your argument that the latter is more common does not hold up. And the articles about other Persian kings do not contain any of the diacritics that are being utilized here, so there's the lack of consistency as well. Keivan.f Talk 18:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil Khatai is an Azerbaijani Turk, there are many articles about it, but you deny it. Shah Ismayil Khatai's grandfather was Uzun Hasan, one of the rulers of Uzun Hasana Aggoyunlu state and Azerbaijan Sərraf Türksoy ( talk) 11:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Why is there no transcription into Azerbaijani if Azerbaijani was literally his native language? HistoreIsmail ( talk) 19:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The mans father is not KURDISH. He is a turcoman tribe leader. please correct this. also fathers middle name is OKTAY, which is itself a TURKIC name Bojinho1990 ( talk) 05:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In popular culture
Games
Ismail has been as hero unit and a campaign in Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition - The Mountain Royals Dlc.
source: https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Ismail Arthur of Brazil ( talk) 16:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Shah Ismayil was born in the city of Ardabil. He is of Turkish origin. He had his own Azeri Turkish. He wrote many works in this language. There is no evidence that he is a Kurd. All this shows that he is a Turk. 109.127.41.99 ( talk) 02:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Where are the sources to confirm that the Safavid state that Ismail founded would inevitably lead to conflict between clergy and nobility? What religious leaders? This paragraph should be removed or substantiated. 31.94.4.61 ( talk) 05:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
M.Bitton (
talk)
17:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)