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I added more Islamic Traditions and point of view of Hanafi Fiqh, but Mr. Edward321 revert it back to older version, which is obsolete. I asked him to provide the reasons for reverting it back, but no reasons mentioned. مہوش علی ( talk) 16:25, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Completely filled with propaganda and islamophobic statements. "in contrast with Christianity..." WHAT THE FUCK? Seriously I'm keeping this deleted until someone (who isn't a racist little fuck) writes a better article on it. Hell, why don't I start to make it my own fucking mission to add to Criticism of Christianity huh? Seriously..I thought Wikipedia was better than this.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
CAN YOU RETARDS STOP PUTTING THESE RACIST FUCKING COMMENTS NO HERE. YOUR GETTING YOUR RESOARCES FROM COMPLETELY ISLAMOPHIBIC WEBSITE AND NOBODY IS STOPPING THAT RACIST BIGOT.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who actually tries to put something racist against Muslims peoples....well I'm gonna keep my ass on this page so if you want to stop me write a better article.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Velanthis, last time I checked Islam was not a race, but a religion. You cannot use the word 'racist' in this context.
Is it not true that individual Muslims and Islamic governments are responsible to recognize free speech as a human right? Islam itself cannot recognize anything any more than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Shiia, as it cannot think (it is, in itself, a concept). Shouldn't the article support itself on historic and contemporary views and punishments (or lack thereof) for blasphemy in and out of Islamic countries, possibly with references to sacred and secular texts? That's what a wikipedia article is supposed to look like. Until it does so, you're just trading Islamophobic bias for Islamophilic bias.-- catcherintehsty ( talk) 08:00, 19 January, 2008 (EST)
The second line of the article says, "The Quran and the hadith do not speak about any worldy punishment for blasphemy." Then in the "Blasphemy against God" section it says, "The Qur'an speaks of punishment in relation to those who make mischief in opposition to God and Muhammad" — Preceding unsigned comment added by SabrebIade ( talk • contribs) 01:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
That translation probably calls for a fact/translation check. 74.78.162.229 ( talk) 01:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
The entire Article has verses of the Holy quran without their interpretation from any renowned author or muslim jurist. As this is Original research from the creator of the article I am deleting the verses which are without interpretation. Please do not post original research on wikipedia. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 03:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC) I have reverted changes to this article per the essay WP:BRD. 94.171.219.68 has removed both references and referenced content without explanation. Some of the references are open to challenge on the ground that some of them come from non-Muslim sources (some are Christian sources). If there were Muslim sources in English which disputed the information presented here, those references would be open to challenge on the ground that they are likely to be sympathetic to Islam. I submit that the inherent, disputatious nature of the subject-matter requires that both Muslim and non-Muslim sources be used. I suggest that references which confute the content of this article be added to the article rather than that content be removed. An editor who removes referenced content without explanation gives the impression that he is removing the information because he wants to suppress it. WP:NOT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT indicate that suppressing information is contrary to Wikipedia's policies.
99.247.60.143 deleted a link which connects to a document that is about the suppression of free speech. Since blasphemy is about restricting speech, the link is relevant; it should not have been deleted. User: 99.247.60.143 inserted a tag which called for a citation after the article's first sentence. The first sentence is a tautology; that is, what it says is self-evident; blasphemy is irreverent behavior, and the followers of Islam are Muslims. Per WP:FACTS, it is not necessary to cite a source in support of the obvious.
If the article is not factual in some respect, please provide references in English so that editors may verify whether a statement should be corrected or clarified. Editors may say that some of the behaviors listed in this article do not amount to blasphemy. The ambiguous nature of blasphemy obliged me to include all behavior which is forbidden somewhere and that is forbidden for religious reasons rather than to prevent injury or loss.
I have not replaced the tags which come, it seems, from the WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. One tag complains that a "worldwide view" is not represented in the article. There is no explanation of what that view is or why it should be represented here. The documentation for the template says inter alia "editors may remove this tag with alacrity and justified prejudice" if the tagger does not describe what he wants. The other tag asks for "cleanup" but the tagger gives no explanation of what he wants, and he does not explain why he cannot do whatever he wants done. I hope the tagger will be pleased to have in the article again some of the references and content that User: 94.171.219.68 deleted. PYRRHON talk 17:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Some of the things listed as "blasphemy" here are based on isolated incidents referenced in news articles. This only means the people in question considered it "blasphemy", not that it is blasphemy according to mainstream scholars from any of the mains schools of fiqh.
Examples: 1. Naming a teddy bear "Muhammed". Yes, in one particularly famous incident in Sudan a woman was charged with blasphemy for this, but does this really mean that it's generally considered blasphemy by most lay Muslims or Muslim scholars? I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Quran or hadith specifically referring to the naming of teddy bears. Even if naming toys or other inanimate objects Muhammed is generally considered blasphemy, then that's what it should say, not specifically "teddy bears", which is downright silly as I doubt it's an issue that comes up frequently. 2. Desecration of Quran by a Christian touching it. While this is extensively footnoted, two of the four references come from the same source-- a right-wing Christian website, not the most unbiased source one could find, one was an Op-Ed-- and all four footnotes refer to the very same incident in Nigeria. Which only demonstrates that some of the Nigerian Muslims in that particular place at that particular time considered it blasphemous, and I'd hardly consider one incident of an unruly mob beating someone to death over circumstances that remain somewhat unclear to be scholarly evidence of this claim. Sounds more like a bunch of radical Muslim thugs looking for an excuse to beat up a Christian than any sort of proof that such activity is commonly considered to be blasphemy in Islam.
I know some currently atheist ex-Muslims who are critical of Islam, but fair and knowledgeable on the topic. I'll ask them to take a look at it and maybe provide an NPOV and well-sourced/well-informed re-write instead of a pro or anti-Islam propaganda piece with dubious information and sources.-- SmashTheGlass ( talk) 16:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
There are many subtle and direct misrepresentations of blasphemy in Islam. An overwhelming majority of references have not been taken from viable religious sources or texts and thus most of the information on this page is fallacious in nature. Some quotes from the Koran and Hadith are either intentionally misconstrued, or the editor has failed to understand the historical facts surrounding the relevant verses. It is thus requested that the article be edited and completely rewritten.
Statements made such as 'Naming a teddy bear Muhammad' are completely illogical and there is no substantial theological proof to ascertain whether, for example, 'speculating what Muhammad may do', or 'making a film about the prophet's life' are blasphemous in nature.
Thus it is requested that the page be re-edited, and it is suggested that sources are solely from the Koran and from verifiable Hadith; to ensure the integrity of this article.
Please ensure that any sources you use are not sensationalised news articles or otherwise misconstrued in nature. I have removed some of the fallacious points, nevertheless, it is requested that an individual with an UNBIASED view of Islam rewrites the article to better reflect the position of Islam on blasphemy
Kind Regards.
I have made several deletions in this article regarding points that have not used appropriate citations from religious texts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhoenixSF90 ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Please do not vandalize this article.
This article complies with Wikipedia's policies regarding a neutral point of view WP:NPOV, no original research WP:NOR, and verifiability WP:V. The article reports on information and incidents collected from a wide variety of sources from all over the world, and presents those sources in great number. The article does not preach. It is not anti-Islam or pro-Islam. It does not elevate any group of believers above any other. The article does not make judgments about whether an event alleged to be blasphemous would be considered blasphemous by any particular group or by any particular proportion of all Muslims. The article does not take sides in theological or sectarian disputes. The article takes no stand on who is right and who is wrong. It takes no stand on what should or should not be blasphemous. The article tries to be nothing more than a collection of reports and quotations.
If you do not like the references provided, do not delete them. Add better references or add references which challenge the assertion which a report makes. Do not expect the editors at Wikipedia to investigate the reference or to know the motives of the persons involved as participants in an event or as reporters of an event. Do not add your opinions to the article.
If you disagree with what the article says, then provide references in English that agree with you. Editors will make corrections if there are mistakes. On the talk page, mention dead links so that they may be replaced.
Not all the believers in Islam have identical beliefs or practices. According to the article Fiqh, there are four prominent schools of fiqh ( Madh'hab) for the Sunni and two schools for the Shia. There are other sects that have beliefs and practices that differ from the Sunni and the Shia. This article is not the place to settle sectarian disputes or to present the views of theologians on what beliefs or practices are best. This article is about incidents alleged to be blasphemy as they are recorded in newspapers and other reports.
If you do not like the article, write the article you want in your userspace (See Wikipedia:User pages or Wikipedia:Subpages.). Invite readers to look at your version. If readers think it deserves to replace the current article, then your version will replace the current article.
Note that the article has received far fewer than one million complaints (See above.). Muslim editors and non-Muslim editors, including ex-Muslims, have tolerated and defended the article. Those editors will undo your efforts if you spoil the article. Please be constructive in your remarks and in your editing. PYRRHON talk 01:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Dear Pyrrhon8,
Thank you for your reply. In order to avoid any misunderstandings, I have added that this article contains instances of events which were considered blasphemous by various sections of Muslim society. I do feel though that in order to better serve an article essentially on religion, there should be a seperate section stipulating the general consensus among Muslims on what counts as blasphemy. This is of course, my personal opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhoenixSF90 ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
This looks like something that should be incorporated, once I've got some time: [1]. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 21:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Crucifixion is not an Islamic punishment please delete from the first line —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.54.25.201 ( talk) 20:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Since when did crucifixion became part of Islam? And this line: "stating facts such as: Muhammad's parents were not Muslims (Pakistan)." is COMPLETELY FALSE , I am a Pakistani Muslim and everyone here knows and discusses openly EVEN WITH religious scholars that the parents of Prophet Muhammad pbuh weren't technically Muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.8.137 ( talk) 00:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear Freeatlastchitchat, Thank you for your edits and for undoing my revert. I assume good faith. You have deleted two section which have been sourced by both primary and secondary. Since your objection was quoting primary sources without outside interpretation, it makes no sense why you object then. The secondary sources for both sections are:
Saeed, Abdullah; Hassan Saeed (2004). Freedom of Religion, Apostasy and Islam. Burlington VT: Ashgate Publishing Company.
I will revert your changes due to the reasons I have outlined above. Please feel free to discuss this issue further so that others can help improve the article. Thank you. Mbcap ( talk) 16:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Dear, and respected Mbcap. First of all, Thanks for assuming good faith. On to the article then.
P.S As I have provided a plethora of solid reasons I will edit the title of this section as well. I hope you don't mind. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 05:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
The hadith which is mentioned here of the woman throwing garbage is considered weak.However there are genuine and sourced traditions which say that the wife of Abu Lahab threw rotting intestines on the Holy Prophet SAW while he was praying. Also there are traditions that say she used to throw rotting garbage at his doorstep. I propose that we replace this tradition with more reliable tradition. Please give your opinion on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeatlastChitchat ( talk • contribs) 08:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello FreeatlastChitchat, good work on the improvements. I agree the entire article needs to be re-written. There is no concept of blasphemy in Islam as such but there are a number of specific situations where Islam has spoken about objectionable behaviour towards the religion itself. For example this quote from Ma'aida which used to be in the article which refers to the muharib:
“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."
This is talked about by many classical islamic sources. This is not blasphemy but a specific crime within Islam referring to the al-muharib (bandits).
Also in the article there is mention of insulting Mohammad counting as blasphemy. There is no such thing as blasphemy. The classical texts say regarding it is that it constitutes apostasy so I do not know why it is here. There may even be other scholars who disagree with that opinion. Either way it is not defined as blasphemy in Islam. Do we take the definition of blasphemy in islam from orientalists or from islamic theological sources? The latter has not defined or even mentioned the term in my experience.
This is just one statement I have issue with. To be honest, most of the rest of the article are also questionable as to their merit. Can I ask, in wikipedia do we present information in the normative sense because this article is full of stories from around the world that have been attributed to blasphemy. Is their any islamic scholar that acknowledges blasphemy or define it? It would be good to get an expert on the subject to provide input.
Mbcap (
talk)
18:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, we should request a merge with blasphemy laws. The reason is that blasphemy is defined in a unique way by different Islamic countries, and there is no umbrella definition accepted by all. Therefore we cannot create a "one size fits all" article like other Islamic practices.
If you do not agree then I will work on the edit over new years eve. Let me just clear up something viz a viz the difference between "warring" and "verbal blasphemy".
The Muharib are not verbal blasphemers. They are "warriors" who fight against muslims. The literal meaning is of a warrior. The root of the word is "Ha" , "Ra" , "Ba", which means war. As you are native to English let me quote latin. The word "HaRaBa" equates to the Latin bellum which gains new meanings with new additions, but the basic meaning remains of "Physical" confrontation unless a metaphorical is implied.
Of course anyone can claim that a person who is waging physical war must also be "guilty" of verbal blasphemy but this will be classic over generalization. We must keep this article free of such fallacies.
As to mention of orientalists, I am personally not comfortable with that. The reason is that we should always source definition of religious terms in general and controversial religious terms in particular, from canon. Sourcing the definition of blasphemy to non Islamic authors or anyone who lived after the "golden age" i.e the three centuries after the Prophet SAW will not be good.
Thank you for the input and please give your opinion on the merger for to me it sounds the best way to give information to readers without causing disambiguation. We can talk about it in a separate section if you require some definite reasons for the merger.
FreeatlastChitchat (
talk)
15:47, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Please give your valuable input.
The following text was deleted:
It was deadlink; This is its internet archive.
Please review whether it is correct item; the ref seems to use the term "blasphemy". If you decide it is OK, please keep in mind that the current descrition is imprecise. I would suggest something like:
References
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An extremist muslim just shared this wikipedia page to promote hatred and justify killing of those who criticise Islam! On going through this article i realise that the moderate muslim view is missing. The moderate muslims view this issue differently. they dont believe that there should be any punishment on blasphemy. i tried putting verses of Quran that expose the extremist ideology but they were removed! i wonder why it happened? shouldnt the article also reflect the moderate muslims view and not just the view of extremists.How can wikipedia be used as a platform for those promoting violence while not giving the moderates a chance to put forward their view? 5:17 - "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." when one looks at this verse it is clear that there is no question of punishments on blasphemy as Quran/prophet do not command killing christians Infact asks to give them protection! please would someone clarify why such a point of view does not deserve to be on this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Basitjamal83 ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
This section is based mostly upon original research. For example, it claims that an example of blasphemy is "being alone with persons of the opposite sex who are not blood relatives". The source [3] doesn't use the term blasphemy in relation with this. Another example is confusing Islamic laws on fornication with blasphemy. [4] Some of the items are actually blasphemy against Christianity, not Islam. [5] Some sources can not be found. For example this [6] is a dead link and a Google search doesn't yield any results either.
Some of the content, however, should be expanded into prose, like the depictions of Muhammad and the Sudanese teddy bear blasphemy case. Bless sins ( talk) 02:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I have not been able to verify the following:
The first executions for blaspheme were "in the hours after Mecca's fall" to the Muslims in 629. Muhammad ordered a number of enemies executed and based on this early jurists postulated that sabb al-Nabi (abuse of the Prophet) was a crime "so heinous that repentance was disallowed and summary execution was required".
I simply searched both of the above quotes, "hours..." and "so heinous..." in both of the sources on Google Books: Heaven on Earth: A Journey Through Shari‘a Law and Crime and Punishment in Islamic Law. Clarification would be appreciated. Bless sins ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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As Bless Sins points out above much of this section seems to based upon news reports, original research and synthesis with the exception of cite:Blasphemy: Islamic Concept". Encyclopedia of Religion. 2. Farmington Hills, MI: Thomson Gale. 2005.
It seems to conflate blasphemy with sin, heresy, religious crimes and many opinions condemned but not necessarily related to blasphemy. The noteworthy instances should be merged with 'Notable cases and debate on blasphemy' while repeating content (like the Teddy bear case) and non noteworthy cases should be removed. 39.37.140.34 ( talk) 18:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
The page periodically suffers the edits of anonymous IPs that tend to do the following things:
-- Grufo ( talk) 13:35, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
any secondary source is completely irrelevant. Please read WP:V. VR talk 14:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Can you please consider to make an account instead of using an IP address?
1) It is something that you keep mentioning while I keep saying it is a minor stylistic feature that can be changed (although in my opinion your proposal is stylistically inferior). Your version also adds confusion. Christians, Muslims and Jews have all different sensitivities about what constitutes an insult to their respective god (and the fact that Muslims think that it is the same god we are talking about does not find an agreement with Christians and Jews). For Christians and Jews for example it is considered a sin even just to mention their god in vain.
2) I am sorry, but denying that “When you hear Allah's revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not …” is an admonishment directed towards a witness of blasphemy (i.e., someone “who hears”) is not only ideological, but ridiculous as well.
4) So much ado for showing that it was not a quotation, and now the point is whether the quotation talks about blasphemy or not? According to scholars historically it has been always been considered by Muslims as a passage that talks about blasphemy. See footnotes under Islam and blasphemy § Quran. The fact that you, as an individual, think that that passage might talk about something else (what, out of curiosity?) does not change its historical usage. By the way, does the sentence “When you hear Allah's revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not …” explicitly talk about blasphemy?
Please stop labeling your revert edits as “Undid unproductive edits” or other childish stuff. There is clearly a strong divergence of opinions here, with you trying to bypass the Quran with secondary sources. Until an agreement is found here (in the talk page) I would suggest that we stop wasting time by reverting each other's edits. -- Grufo ( talk) 19:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.So you must provide a secondary source for the interpretation of the Qur'an. Finally, you're making WP:Personal attacks against me. Please stop or I'll report you. VR talk 22:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
"What is described here is a clearly peaceful form of disapproval: Muslims are not supposed to be part of a discourse that mocks Islam, but all they have to do is stay away from it. Even then, the withdrawal should last only until the discourse changes into something inoffensive. Once mockery ends, dialogue can restart. (We should note that this verse is from a chapter of the Qur’an that was
revealed in the “Medinan” phase. In other words, it reflects a time when Muslims had political and military power. So its nonviolent character can’t be explained, and explained away, as resulting from necessity.) A few other Qur’anic verses, too, order similar acts of nonviolent disapproval in the face of blasphemous talk. “When you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications,”
one of them commands the Prophet, “withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse.” 32 Another verse describes Muslims as quite nonconfrontational: “When they hear idle talk they turn aside from it and say: We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be on you, we do not desire the ignorant.” "
(Islam without Extremes - A Muslim Case for Liberty, pg 280)
-- Grufo ( talk) 02:25, 28 July 2020 (UTC)So although the verb sabb is not used in the Qur'an in the sense of insult or injury against Mohammad personally, there is nevertheless reference to a “penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and [who] strive after [causing] corruption in the land” (jaza'u lladhina yuharibuna allaha wa yas'awna fi al-ardi fasada) (Q 5:33), being “execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land” followed by a heavy punishment in the hereafter. It is notable that many Qur'an commentators and jurist have used this verse to justify blasphemy laws and to punish blasphemers, interpreting blasphemy within the definition of waging war.
— Siraj Khan. "Blasphemy against the Prophet", in Muhammad in History, Thought, and Culture (editors: Coeli Fitzpatrick and Adam Hani Walker). ISBN 978-1610691772, p. 60
I have given a full discussion of the Qur'an verses by the sources. I have given details in the body, but kept the lead as a summary. VR talk 03:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. Secondary sources are more important that primary sources. VR talk 22:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
39.37.181.43 ( talk) 08:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)a surface reading of some of the verses of the Qur’an and of hadith texts could lead to the conclusion that anyone who turns away from the faith should be punished in this world. Close reading, however, reveals that there is no temporal punishment specified in the Qur’an. The Prophet did not take it on himself to punish people for this offence. His mission was to persuade, not coerce, people into professing Islam.
others argue that the death penalty applies only to cases where perpetrator commits treasonous crimes, especially during times of war.
@IP address (my invitation to create a Wikipedia account is still open):
“I'll let you have …”
“as you refrain from edit-warring as you are now doing”
“I'll just point out that you only provided a single source”
“I see no reason why part of his statement should be removed”
“As for the Bible your parenthetical claims are debatable too including by non-Muslim scholars like Patricia Crone see: [ [17]] and it's interpretations”
“your claims of ideological bias and now conflict-of-interest only betray your own motives”
“obsessed with a verse from the latter”
“your spurious distinction between Quranic and Islamic scholarship”
-- Grufo ( talk) 22:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
(
←) Going back to Saeed, he says (page 28) Evidence for punishment for blasphemy appears to be based on certain reported incidents in the lifetime of the Prophet, there being no clear Qur’anic instruction on the matter. When the Qur’an uses the term sabb, it only commands Muslims not to revile the deities of non-Muslims lest they revile Allah. There is no reference to a temporal punishment in that context.
This much can be verified from the Qur'an itself - no verse in the Quran prescribes any punishment for sabb, the only verse on sabb prescribes no earthly punishment, let alone mutilation, death etc.
VR
talk
18:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
According to Abbas the verse is directed towards “those who disbelieve in Allah and His messenger, but the source actually says:
(The only reward) requital (of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger) of those who disbelieve in Allah and His messenger (and strive after corruption in the land) and engage in sin in the land, i.e. by wrongfully killing others and taking their properties (will be that they will be killed)
according to Kathir it “includes disbelief”. Again Ibn Kathir says something different
In both cases, the tafsir actually conjoin disbelief to violent crimes. If one reads Ibn kathir a bit further, he makes that crystal clear:`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways.
VR talk 00:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)He who takes up arms in Muslim land and spreads fear in the fairways and is captured, the Muslim Leader has the choice to either have him killed, crucified or cut off his hands and feet.
I would like the quote for the statement,
Hanafi...If a non-Muslim commits blasphemy, his punishment must be a tazir (discretionary, can be death, arrest, caning, etc.)
I looked at one of the sources cited "The Case of Hamza Kashgari: Examining Apostasy, Heresy, And Blasphemy Under Sharia" and did not find this there. It also seems to contradict Imam Abu Hanifa's opinion that a non-Muslim is not to be killed for blasphemy. Please provide the quote for this. VR talk 11:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
This edit by Iskandar323 removed a satirical cartoon from the page. Their edit summary was:
Deleting non-notable, self-published work that is an example of WP:GRATUITOUS, i.e.: Wikipedia is not censored, but equally it "does not give special favor to offensive content", which should only be used "if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." There is already a non-gratuitous alternative.
However,
-- Grufo ( talk) 18:48, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
"if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available."There is already another Everybody Draw Mohammed Day picture on the page [18] that would be considered offensive (if my understanding is correct) by many Muslims. There is simply no need for a second, even more offensive one. It does nothing to make the page more "informative, relevant, or accurate". If you think the second image should stay, in defiance of WP:GRATUITOUS, explain why we need both. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:58, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
"less informative, relevant, or accurate", and why the first example is not already a
"suitable alternative". Iskandar323 ( talk) 05:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Cartoons removed | Cartoons restored | Restored by |
---|---|---|
17:46, 14 November 2021 | 18:33, 14 November 2021 | Grufo |
14:30, 4 October 2021 | 14:31, 4 October 2021 | Grim23 |
14:27, 4 October 2021 | 14:27, 4 October 2021 | Serols |
14:23, 4 October 2021 | 14:25, 4 October 2021 | Serols |
14:16, 4 October 2021 | 14:19, 4 October 2021 | Some1 |
14:07, 4 October 2021 | 14:10, 4 October 2021 | Grim23 |
10:28, 28 September 2021 | 15:43, 28 September 2021 | Some1 |
21:10, 8 April 2021 | 21:12, 8 April 2021 | Nearlyevil665 |
11:53, 10 December 2020 | 03:29, 16 December 2020 | Eperoton |
then please respond in the terms of the guideline: As you wish. Here is my answer in Wikipedia policy language (emphasis mine):
Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive—even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia.
Some articles may include images, text, or links which are relevant to the topic but that some people find objectionable. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should usually focus not on its potential offensiveness but on whether it is an appropriate image, text, or link. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for the removal of content. The Wikipedia:Offensive material guideline can help assess appropriate actions to take in the case of content that may be considered offensive.
Per the Wikipedia:Image use policy, the only reason for including any image in any article is "to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter"
"no equally suitable alternative is available", and as per MOS:OMIMG, we should:
"Avoid images that contain irrelevant or extraneous elements that might seem offensive or harassing to readers". We already have an initial image that serves to provide a depiction [21], so an alternative is available, while the image I attempted to remove [22] clearly contains elements that are "irrelevant or extraneous" to the purpose of depiction, including a list of insults and unsubstantiated accusations from an unreliable source, as well as a written-out url for the website "Faithfreedom.org", which is both WP:PROMOTION and ties it, specifically, to a highly polarized platform [23] created by Ali Sina, who has been described as
"virulently anti-Islamic". Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
self-published works”. It's kind of the sense of “E-VERY-BO-DY draw…”. -- Grufo ( talk) 16:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
This example in the article is based on a single source, which is a typical Associated Press stub article consisting of just four paragraphs. It mention the subject's name once and asserts that he is a "sect leader", but clearly not one notable enough to be named in an article. We know no specifics of the alleged blasphemy nor details of the case, and "Abdul Kahar Ahmad" is not an SEO friendly name. Does not seem particularly notable. Iskandar323 ( talk) 21:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (
talk)
15:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
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I added more Islamic Traditions and point of view of Hanafi Fiqh, but Mr. Edward321 revert it back to older version, which is obsolete. I asked him to provide the reasons for reverting it back, but no reasons mentioned. مہوش علی ( talk) 16:25, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Completely filled with propaganda and islamophobic statements. "in contrast with Christianity..." WHAT THE FUCK? Seriously I'm keeping this deleted until someone (who isn't a racist little fuck) writes a better article on it. Hell, why don't I start to make it my own fucking mission to add to Criticism of Christianity huh? Seriously..I thought Wikipedia was better than this.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
CAN YOU RETARDS STOP PUTTING THESE RACIST FUCKING COMMENTS NO HERE. YOUR GETTING YOUR RESOARCES FROM COMPLETELY ISLAMOPHIBIC WEBSITE AND NOBODY IS STOPPING THAT RACIST BIGOT.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who actually tries to put something racist against Muslims peoples....well I'm gonna keep my ass on this page so if you want to stop me write a better article.-- Velanthis ( talk) 18:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Velanthis, last time I checked Islam was not a race, but a religion. You cannot use the word 'racist' in this context.
Is it not true that individual Muslims and Islamic governments are responsible to recognize free speech as a human right? Islam itself cannot recognize anything any more than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Shiia, as it cannot think (it is, in itself, a concept). Shouldn't the article support itself on historic and contemporary views and punishments (or lack thereof) for blasphemy in and out of Islamic countries, possibly with references to sacred and secular texts? That's what a wikipedia article is supposed to look like. Until it does so, you're just trading Islamophobic bias for Islamophilic bias.-- catcherintehsty ( talk) 08:00, 19 January, 2008 (EST)
The second line of the article says, "The Quran and the hadith do not speak about any worldy punishment for blasphemy." Then in the "Blasphemy against God" section it says, "The Qur'an speaks of punishment in relation to those who make mischief in opposition to God and Muhammad" — Preceding unsigned comment added by SabrebIade ( talk • contribs) 01:00, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
That translation probably calls for a fact/translation check. 74.78.162.229 ( talk) 01:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
The entire Article has verses of the Holy quran without their interpretation from any renowned author or muslim jurist. As this is Original research from the creator of the article I am deleting the verses which are without interpretation. Please do not post original research on wikipedia. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 03:47, 24 December 2014 (UTC) I have reverted changes to this article per the essay WP:BRD. 94.171.219.68 has removed both references and referenced content without explanation. Some of the references are open to challenge on the ground that some of them come from non-Muslim sources (some are Christian sources). If there were Muslim sources in English which disputed the information presented here, those references would be open to challenge on the ground that they are likely to be sympathetic to Islam. I submit that the inherent, disputatious nature of the subject-matter requires that both Muslim and non-Muslim sources be used. I suggest that references which confute the content of this article be added to the article rather than that content be removed. An editor who removes referenced content without explanation gives the impression that he is removing the information because he wants to suppress it. WP:NOT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT indicate that suppressing information is contrary to Wikipedia's policies.
99.247.60.143 deleted a link which connects to a document that is about the suppression of free speech. Since blasphemy is about restricting speech, the link is relevant; it should not have been deleted. User: 99.247.60.143 inserted a tag which called for a citation after the article's first sentence. The first sentence is a tautology; that is, what it says is self-evident; blasphemy is irreverent behavior, and the followers of Islam are Muslims. Per WP:FACTS, it is not necessary to cite a source in support of the obvious.
If the article is not factual in some respect, please provide references in English so that editors may verify whether a statement should be corrected or clarified. Editors may say that some of the behaviors listed in this article do not amount to blasphemy. The ambiguous nature of blasphemy obliged me to include all behavior which is forbidden somewhere and that is forbidden for religious reasons rather than to prevent injury or loss.
I have not replaced the tags which come, it seems, from the WP:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. One tag complains that a "worldwide view" is not represented in the article. There is no explanation of what that view is or why it should be represented here. The documentation for the template says inter alia "editors may remove this tag with alacrity and justified prejudice" if the tagger does not describe what he wants. The other tag asks for "cleanup" but the tagger gives no explanation of what he wants, and he does not explain why he cannot do whatever he wants done. I hope the tagger will be pleased to have in the article again some of the references and content that User: 94.171.219.68 deleted. PYRRHON talk 17:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Some of the things listed as "blasphemy" here are based on isolated incidents referenced in news articles. This only means the people in question considered it "blasphemy", not that it is blasphemy according to mainstream scholars from any of the mains schools of fiqh.
Examples: 1. Naming a teddy bear "Muhammed". Yes, in one particularly famous incident in Sudan a woman was charged with blasphemy for this, but does this really mean that it's generally considered blasphemy by most lay Muslims or Muslim scholars? I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Quran or hadith specifically referring to the naming of teddy bears. Even if naming toys or other inanimate objects Muhammed is generally considered blasphemy, then that's what it should say, not specifically "teddy bears", which is downright silly as I doubt it's an issue that comes up frequently. 2. Desecration of Quran by a Christian touching it. While this is extensively footnoted, two of the four references come from the same source-- a right-wing Christian website, not the most unbiased source one could find, one was an Op-Ed-- and all four footnotes refer to the very same incident in Nigeria. Which only demonstrates that some of the Nigerian Muslims in that particular place at that particular time considered it blasphemous, and I'd hardly consider one incident of an unruly mob beating someone to death over circumstances that remain somewhat unclear to be scholarly evidence of this claim. Sounds more like a bunch of radical Muslim thugs looking for an excuse to beat up a Christian than any sort of proof that such activity is commonly considered to be blasphemy in Islam.
I know some currently atheist ex-Muslims who are critical of Islam, but fair and knowledgeable on the topic. I'll ask them to take a look at it and maybe provide an NPOV and well-sourced/well-informed re-write instead of a pro or anti-Islam propaganda piece with dubious information and sources.-- SmashTheGlass ( talk) 16:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
There are many subtle and direct misrepresentations of blasphemy in Islam. An overwhelming majority of references have not been taken from viable religious sources or texts and thus most of the information on this page is fallacious in nature. Some quotes from the Koran and Hadith are either intentionally misconstrued, or the editor has failed to understand the historical facts surrounding the relevant verses. It is thus requested that the article be edited and completely rewritten.
Statements made such as 'Naming a teddy bear Muhammad' are completely illogical and there is no substantial theological proof to ascertain whether, for example, 'speculating what Muhammad may do', or 'making a film about the prophet's life' are blasphemous in nature.
Thus it is requested that the page be re-edited, and it is suggested that sources are solely from the Koran and from verifiable Hadith; to ensure the integrity of this article.
Please ensure that any sources you use are not sensationalised news articles or otherwise misconstrued in nature. I have removed some of the fallacious points, nevertheless, it is requested that an individual with an UNBIASED view of Islam rewrites the article to better reflect the position of Islam on blasphemy
Kind Regards.
I have made several deletions in this article regarding points that have not used appropriate citations from religious texts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhoenixSF90 ( talk • contribs) 19:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Please do not vandalize this article.
This article complies with Wikipedia's policies regarding a neutral point of view WP:NPOV, no original research WP:NOR, and verifiability WP:V. The article reports on information and incidents collected from a wide variety of sources from all over the world, and presents those sources in great number. The article does not preach. It is not anti-Islam or pro-Islam. It does not elevate any group of believers above any other. The article does not make judgments about whether an event alleged to be blasphemous would be considered blasphemous by any particular group or by any particular proportion of all Muslims. The article does not take sides in theological or sectarian disputes. The article takes no stand on who is right and who is wrong. It takes no stand on what should or should not be blasphemous. The article tries to be nothing more than a collection of reports and quotations.
If you do not like the references provided, do not delete them. Add better references or add references which challenge the assertion which a report makes. Do not expect the editors at Wikipedia to investigate the reference or to know the motives of the persons involved as participants in an event or as reporters of an event. Do not add your opinions to the article.
If you disagree with what the article says, then provide references in English that agree with you. Editors will make corrections if there are mistakes. On the talk page, mention dead links so that they may be replaced.
Not all the believers in Islam have identical beliefs or practices. According to the article Fiqh, there are four prominent schools of fiqh ( Madh'hab) for the Sunni and two schools for the Shia. There are other sects that have beliefs and practices that differ from the Sunni and the Shia. This article is not the place to settle sectarian disputes or to present the views of theologians on what beliefs or practices are best. This article is about incidents alleged to be blasphemy as they are recorded in newspapers and other reports.
If you do not like the article, write the article you want in your userspace (See Wikipedia:User pages or Wikipedia:Subpages.). Invite readers to look at your version. If readers think it deserves to replace the current article, then your version will replace the current article.
Note that the article has received far fewer than one million complaints (See above.). Muslim editors and non-Muslim editors, including ex-Muslims, have tolerated and defended the article. Those editors will undo your efforts if you spoil the article. Please be constructive in your remarks and in your editing. PYRRHON talk 01:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Dear Pyrrhon8,
Thank you for your reply. In order to avoid any misunderstandings, I have added that this article contains instances of events which were considered blasphemous by various sections of Muslim society. I do feel though that in order to better serve an article essentially on religion, there should be a seperate section stipulating the general consensus among Muslims on what counts as blasphemy. This is of course, my personal opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhoenixSF90 ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
This looks like something that should be incorporated, once I've got some time: [1]. AzureFury ( talk | contribs) 21:52, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Crucifixion is not an Islamic punishment please delete from the first line —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.54.25.201 ( talk) 20:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Since when did crucifixion became part of Islam? And this line: "stating facts such as: Muhammad's parents were not Muslims (Pakistan)." is COMPLETELY FALSE , I am a Pakistani Muslim and everyone here knows and discusses openly EVEN WITH religious scholars that the parents of Prophet Muhammad pbuh weren't technically Muslims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.8.137 ( talk) 00:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Dear Freeatlastchitchat, Thank you for your edits and for undoing my revert. I assume good faith. You have deleted two section which have been sourced by both primary and secondary. Since your objection was quoting primary sources without outside interpretation, it makes no sense why you object then. The secondary sources for both sections are:
Saeed, Abdullah; Hassan Saeed (2004). Freedom of Religion, Apostasy and Islam. Burlington VT: Ashgate Publishing Company.
I will revert your changes due to the reasons I have outlined above. Please feel free to discuss this issue further so that others can help improve the article. Thank you. Mbcap ( talk) 16:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Dear, and respected Mbcap. First of all, Thanks for assuming good faith. On to the article then.
P.S As I have provided a plethora of solid reasons I will edit the title of this section as well. I hope you don't mind. FreeatlastChitchat ( talk) 05:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
The hadith which is mentioned here of the woman throwing garbage is considered weak.However there are genuine and sourced traditions which say that the wife of Abu Lahab threw rotting intestines on the Holy Prophet SAW while he was praying. Also there are traditions that say she used to throw rotting garbage at his doorstep. I propose that we replace this tradition with more reliable tradition. Please give your opinion on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeatlastChitchat ( talk • contribs) 08:20, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Hello FreeatlastChitchat, good work on the improvements. I agree the entire article needs to be re-written. There is no concept of blasphemy in Islam as such but there are a number of specific situations where Islam has spoken about objectionable behaviour towards the religion itself. For example this quote from Ma'aida which used to be in the article which refers to the muharib:
“The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."
This is talked about by many classical islamic sources. This is not blasphemy but a specific crime within Islam referring to the al-muharib (bandits).
Also in the article there is mention of insulting Mohammad counting as blasphemy. There is no such thing as blasphemy. The classical texts say regarding it is that it constitutes apostasy so I do not know why it is here. There may even be other scholars who disagree with that opinion. Either way it is not defined as blasphemy in Islam. Do we take the definition of blasphemy in islam from orientalists or from islamic theological sources? The latter has not defined or even mentioned the term in my experience.
This is just one statement I have issue with. To be honest, most of the rest of the article are also questionable as to their merit. Can I ask, in wikipedia do we present information in the normative sense because this article is full of stories from around the world that have been attributed to blasphemy. Is their any islamic scholar that acknowledges blasphemy or define it? It would be good to get an expert on the subject to provide input.
Mbcap (
talk)
18:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, we should request a merge with blasphemy laws. The reason is that blasphemy is defined in a unique way by different Islamic countries, and there is no umbrella definition accepted by all. Therefore we cannot create a "one size fits all" article like other Islamic practices.
If you do not agree then I will work on the edit over new years eve. Let me just clear up something viz a viz the difference between "warring" and "verbal blasphemy".
The Muharib are not verbal blasphemers. They are "warriors" who fight against muslims. The literal meaning is of a warrior. The root of the word is "Ha" , "Ra" , "Ba", which means war. As you are native to English let me quote latin. The word "HaRaBa" equates to the Latin bellum which gains new meanings with new additions, but the basic meaning remains of "Physical" confrontation unless a metaphorical is implied.
Of course anyone can claim that a person who is waging physical war must also be "guilty" of verbal blasphemy but this will be classic over generalization. We must keep this article free of such fallacies.
As to mention of orientalists, I am personally not comfortable with that. The reason is that we should always source definition of religious terms in general and controversial religious terms in particular, from canon. Sourcing the definition of blasphemy to non Islamic authors or anyone who lived after the "golden age" i.e the three centuries after the Prophet SAW will not be good.
Thank you for the input and please give your opinion on the merger for to me it sounds the best way to give information to readers without causing disambiguation. We can talk about it in a separate section if you require some definite reasons for the merger.
FreeatlastChitchat (
talk)
15:47, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
Please give your valuable input.
The following text was deleted:
It was deadlink; This is its internet archive.
Please review whether it is correct item; the ref seems to use the term "blasphemy". If you decide it is OK, please keep in mind that the current descrition is imprecise. I would suggest something like:
References
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An extremist muslim just shared this wikipedia page to promote hatred and justify killing of those who criticise Islam! On going through this article i realise that the moderate muslim view is missing. The moderate muslims view this issue differently. they dont believe that there should be any punishment on blasphemy. i tried putting verses of Quran that expose the extremist ideology but they were removed! i wonder why it happened? shouldnt the article also reflect the moderate muslims view and not just the view of extremists.How can wikipedia be used as a platform for those promoting violence while not giving the moderates a chance to put forward their view? 5:17 - "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." when one looks at this verse it is clear that there is no question of punishments on blasphemy as Quran/prophet do not command killing christians Infact asks to give them protection! please would someone clarify why such a point of view does not deserve to be on this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Basitjamal83 ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
This section is based mostly upon original research. For example, it claims that an example of blasphemy is "being alone with persons of the opposite sex who are not blood relatives". The source [3] doesn't use the term blasphemy in relation with this. Another example is confusing Islamic laws on fornication with blasphemy. [4] Some of the items are actually blasphemy against Christianity, not Islam. [5] Some sources can not be found. For example this [6] is a dead link and a Google search doesn't yield any results either.
Some of the content, however, should be expanded into prose, like the depictions of Muhammad and the Sudanese teddy bear blasphemy case. Bless sins ( talk) 02:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I have not been able to verify the following:
The first executions for blaspheme were "in the hours after Mecca's fall" to the Muslims in 629. Muhammad ordered a number of enemies executed and based on this early jurists postulated that sabb al-Nabi (abuse of the Prophet) was a crime "so heinous that repentance was disallowed and summary execution was required".
I simply searched both of the above quotes, "hours..." and "so heinous..." in both of the sources on Google Books: Heaven on Earth: A Journey Through Shari‘a Law and Crime and Punishment in Islamic Law. Clarification would be appreciated. Bless sins ( talk) 15:03, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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As Bless Sins points out above much of this section seems to based upon news reports, original research and synthesis with the exception of cite:Blasphemy: Islamic Concept". Encyclopedia of Religion. 2. Farmington Hills, MI: Thomson Gale. 2005.
It seems to conflate blasphemy with sin, heresy, religious crimes and many opinions condemned but not necessarily related to blasphemy. The noteworthy instances should be merged with 'Notable cases and debate on blasphemy' while repeating content (like the Teddy bear case) and non noteworthy cases should be removed. 39.37.140.34 ( talk) 18:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
The page periodically suffers the edits of anonymous IPs that tend to do the following things:
-- Grufo ( talk) 13:35, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
any secondary source is completely irrelevant. Please read WP:V. VR talk 14:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Can you please consider to make an account instead of using an IP address?
1) It is something that you keep mentioning while I keep saying it is a minor stylistic feature that can be changed (although in my opinion your proposal is stylistically inferior). Your version also adds confusion. Christians, Muslims and Jews have all different sensitivities about what constitutes an insult to their respective god (and the fact that Muslims think that it is the same god we are talking about does not find an agreement with Christians and Jews). For Christians and Jews for example it is considered a sin even just to mention their god in vain.
2) I am sorry, but denying that “When you hear Allah's revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not …” is an admonishment directed towards a witness of blasphemy (i.e., someone “who hears”) is not only ideological, but ridiculous as well.
4) So much ado for showing that it was not a quotation, and now the point is whether the quotation talks about blasphemy or not? According to scholars historically it has been always been considered by Muslims as a passage that talks about blasphemy. See footnotes under Islam and blasphemy § Quran. The fact that you, as an individual, think that that passage might talk about something else (what, out of curiosity?) does not change its historical usage. By the way, does the sentence “When you hear Allah's revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not …” explicitly talk about blasphemy?
Please stop labeling your revert edits as “Undid unproductive edits” or other childish stuff. There is clearly a strong divergence of opinions here, with you trying to bypass the Quran with secondary sources. Until an agreement is found here (in the talk page) I would suggest that we stop wasting time by reverting each other's edits. -- Grufo ( talk) 19:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.So you must provide a secondary source for the interpretation of the Qur'an. Finally, you're making WP:Personal attacks against me. Please stop or I'll report you. VR talk 22:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
"What is described here is a clearly peaceful form of disapproval: Muslims are not supposed to be part of a discourse that mocks Islam, but all they have to do is stay away from it. Even then, the withdrawal should last only until the discourse changes into something inoffensive. Once mockery ends, dialogue can restart. (We should note that this verse is from a chapter of the Qur’an that was
revealed in the “Medinan” phase. In other words, it reflects a time when Muslims had political and military power. So its nonviolent character can’t be explained, and explained away, as resulting from necessity.) A few other Qur’anic verses, too, order similar acts of nonviolent disapproval in the face of blasphemous talk. “When you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications,”
one of them commands the Prophet, “withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse.” 32 Another verse describes Muslims as quite nonconfrontational: “When they hear idle talk they turn aside from it and say: We shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; peace be on you, we do not desire the ignorant.” "
(Islam without Extremes - A Muslim Case for Liberty, pg 280)
-- Grufo ( talk) 02:25, 28 July 2020 (UTC)So although the verb sabb is not used in the Qur'an in the sense of insult or injury against Mohammad personally, there is nevertheless reference to a “penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and [who] strive after [causing] corruption in the land” (jaza'u lladhina yuharibuna allaha wa yas'awna fi al-ardi fasada) (Q 5:33), being “execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land” followed by a heavy punishment in the hereafter. It is notable that many Qur'an commentators and jurist have used this verse to justify blasphemy laws and to punish blasphemers, interpreting blasphemy within the definition of waging war.
— Siraj Khan. "Blasphemy against the Prophet", in Muhammad in History, Thought, and Culture (editors: Coeli Fitzpatrick and Adam Hani Walker). ISBN 978-1610691772, p. 60
I have given a full discussion of the Qur'an verses by the sources. I have given details in the body, but kept the lead as a summary. VR talk 03:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. Secondary sources are more important that primary sources. VR talk 22:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
39.37.181.43 ( talk) 08:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)a surface reading of some of the verses of the Qur’an and of hadith texts could lead to the conclusion that anyone who turns away from the faith should be punished in this world. Close reading, however, reveals that there is no temporal punishment specified in the Qur’an. The Prophet did not take it on himself to punish people for this offence. His mission was to persuade, not coerce, people into professing Islam.
others argue that the death penalty applies only to cases where perpetrator commits treasonous crimes, especially during times of war.
@IP address (my invitation to create a Wikipedia account is still open):
“I'll let you have …”
“as you refrain from edit-warring as you are now doing”
“I'll just point out that you only provided a single source”
“I see no reason why part of his statement should be removed”
“As for the Bible your parenthetical claims are debatable too including by non-Muslim scholars like Patricia Crone see: [ [17]] and it's interpretations”
“your claims of ideological bias and now conflict-of-interest only betray your own motives”
“obsessed with a verse from the latter”
“your spurious distinction between Quranic and Islamic scholarship”
-- Grufo ( talk) 22:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
(
←) Going back to Saeed, he says (page 28) Evidence for punishment for blasphemy appears to be based on certain reported incidents in the lifetime of the Prophet, there being no clear Qur’anic instruction on the matter. When the Qur’an uses the term sabb, it only commands Muslims not to revile the deities of non-Muslims lest they revile Allah. There is no reference to a temporal punishment in that context.
This much can be verified from the Qur'an itself - no verse in the Quran prescribes any punishment for sabb, the only verse on sabb prescribes no earthly punishment, let alone mutilation, death etc.
VR
talk
18:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
According to Abbas the verse is directed towards “those who disbelieve in Allah and His messenger, but the source actually says:
(The only reward) requital (of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger) of those who disbelieve in Allah and His messenger (and strive after corruption in the land) and engage in sin in the land, i.e. by wrongfully killing others and taking their properties (will be that they will be killed)
according to Kathir it “includes disbelief”. Again Ibn Kathir says something different
In both cases, the tafsir actually conjoin disbelief to violent crimes. If one reads Ibn kathir a bit further, he makes that crystal clear:`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways.
VR talk 00:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)He who takes up arms in Muslim land and spreads fear in the fairways and is captured, the Muslim Leader has the choice to either have him killed, crucified or cut off his hands and feet.
I would like the quote for the statement,
Hanafi...If a non-Muslim commits blasphemy, his punishment must be a tazir (discretionary, can be death, arrest, caning, etc.)
I looked at one of the sources cited "The Case of Hamza Kashgari: Examining Apostasy, Heresy, And Blasphemy Under Sharia" and did not find this there. It also seems to contradict Imam Abu Hanifa's opinion that a non-Muslim is not to be killed for blasphemy. Please provide the quote for this. VR talk 11:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
This edit by Iskandar323 removed a satirical cartoon from the page. Their edit summary was:
Deleting non-notable, self-published work that is an example of WP:GRATUITOUS, i.e.: Wikipedia is not censored, but equally it "does not give special favor to offensive content", which should only be used "if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available." There is already a non-gratuitous alternative.
However,
-- Grufo ( talk) 18:48, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
"if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available."There is already another Everybody Draw Mohammed Day picture on the page [18] that would be considered offensive (if my understanding is correct) by many Muslims. There is simply no need for a second, even more offensive one. It does nothing to make the page more "informative, relevant, or accurate". If you think the second image should stay, in defiance of WP:GRATUITOUS, explain why we need both. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:58, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
"less informative, relevant, or accurate", and why the first example is not already a
"suitable alternative". Iskandar323 ( talk) 05:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Cartoons removed | Cartoons restored | Restored by |
---|---|---|
17:46, 14 November 2021 | 18:33, 14 November 2021 | Grufo |
14:30, 4 October 2021 | 14:31, 4 October 2021 | Grim23 |
14:27, 4 October 2021 | 14:27, 4 October 2021 | Serols |
14:23, 4 October 2021 | 14:25, 4 October 2021 | Serols |
14:16, 4 October 2021 | 14:19, 4 October 2021 | Some1 |
14:07, 4 October 2021 | 14:10, 4 October 2021 | Grim23 |
10:28, 28 September 2021 | 15:43, 28 September 2021 | Some1 |
21:10, 8 April 2021 | 21:12, 8 April 2021 | Nearlyevil665 |
11:53, 10 December 2020 | 03:29, 16 December 2020 | Eperoton |
then please respond in the terms of the guideline: As you wish. Here is my answer in Wikipedia policy language (emphasis mine):
Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive—even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia.
Some articles may include images, text, or links which are relevant to the topic but that some people find objectionable. Discussion of potentially objectionable content should usually focus not on its potential offensiveness but on whether it is an appropriate image, text, or link. Beyond that, "being objectionable" is generally not sufficient grounds for the removal of content. The Wikipedia:Offensive material guideline can help assess appropriate actions to take in the case of content that may be considered offensive.
Per the Wikipedia:Image use policy, the only reason for including any image in any article is "to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter"
"no equally suitable alternative is available", and as per MOS:OMIMG, we should:
"Avoid images that contain irrelevant or extraneous elements that might seem offensive or harassing to readers". We already have an initial image that serves to provide a depiction [21], so an alternative is available, while the image I attempted to remove [22] clearly contains elements that are "irrelevant or extraneous" to the purpose of depiction, including a list of insults and unsubstantiated accusations from an unreliable source, as well as a written-out url for the website "Faithfreedom.org", which is both WP:PROMOTION and ties it, specifically, to a highly polarized platform [23] created by Ali Sina, who has been described as
"virulently anti-Islamic". Iskandar323 ( talk) 11:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
self-published works”. It's kind of the sense of “E-VERY-BO-DY draw…”. -- Grufo ( talk) 16:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
This example in the article is based on a single source, which is a typical Associated Press stub article consisting of just four paragraphs. It mention the subject's name once and asserts that he is a "sect leader", but clearly not one notable enough to be named in an article. We know no specifics of the alleged blasphemy nor details of the case, and "Abdul Kahar Ahmad" is not an SEO friendly name. Does not seem particularly notable. Iskandar323 ( talk) 21:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (
talk)
15:50, 25 July 2022 (UTC)