This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Iranian Kurdistan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 120 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2006 March 24. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
hi. its a mistake about kurdish areas in the shown map. for example northern and centeral parts of ilam provience are completly krdish area with language and culture and they are not lur areas.
Iranian Kurdistan or Eastern Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê), is an unofficial name for the Western parts of Iran predominantly inhabited by Kurds and borders the Kurdish regions of Iraq and Turkey. It includes Kurdistan Province, Kermanshah Province,Ilam province and parts of West Azerbaijan Province.
Hi
Paradise Chronicle, I see that you have added a source to the lead
[1]. The content these sources are used to support, previously said Kurds generally consider northwestern Iran to be one of the four parts of a Greater Kurdistan, which also includes parts of southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Syria (Western Kurdistan) and northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan).
and on the grounds that "
Source isn't Kurdish" it was changed to the current version. As I can see, the book by Ofra Bengio on page one only says Kurds inhabit in four countries (Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syra) which is a different thing from this article. Would you please elaborate on this and the exact quote that says so? The other source, that you added, is the German book Kurden heute by Fadel Khalil published by Europaverlag in 1992. Is it a scholarly source? Has Fadel Khalil expertise or academic credentials on the subject, or is Europaverlag a reputable publisher? I think this article needs to use reputable sources only and be written with an inclusive perspective covering subjects like economy, education, climate, culture, sports, etc., but now we have a political article that needs a lot of work.
Pahlevun (
talk)
18:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Paradise Chronicle: Thank you for your elaboration, now it is clear that using the terms northern/southern/eastern/western Kurdistan in the article is a matter of editorial taste and should not be attributed to the sources cited. I checked the 'Kurdistan (Arabic: Kurdestan), Iran–Iraq–Syria–Turkey' entry of Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names, and therefore propose the following to replace the sentence:
It is the part of Kurdistan, a larger geographical area, that extends over Iranian soil and whose other areas are located in Turkey ( Turkish Kurdistan), Iraq (the autonomous Kurdistan Region) and Syria ( Syrian Kurdistan).
— Everett-Heath, John (2020), "Kurdistan", Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names (5th ed.), Oxford University Press, doi: 10.1093/acref/9780191905636.001.0001, ISBN 9780191905636,'Land of the Kurds', a large geographical area that extends mainly over Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, and slightly into Syria. Despite never having been united under a single ruler nor acquiring the status of a nation-state, the Kurds, numbering some 25 million, have been able to maintain a distinct sense of identity and culture for at least the last 2,000 years; they do not, however, share a common language or religion.
Having published in 2020, the source does not use the terms with cardinal directions (which are mostly associated with Kurdish nationalists), nor has an entry for them. The Oxford book has also an entry with less words for 'Kordestan, Iran': "A province with the Persian name ‘Land of the Kurds’, a geographical region named after the Kurds. Only Iran has a province so-named. See Kurdistan." Do you agree with this replacement? Pahlevun ( talk) 16:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
A number of reliable sources can be located displaying that an alternative name for this area is “Eastern Kurdistan.” A quick search shows that the --> “ Iranian Kurdistan” entry for the UNPO (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization) states “Iranian Kurdistan, also known as eastern Kurdistan.” In addition, on page 133 of The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. By Mehrdad R. Izady. (1992). a passage reads “... and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.” In addition, there are academic journal articles such as:
Moreover, the Iranian Government is facing an armed insurgency from the Kurdistan Free Life Party, whose male armed wing is called the YRK (Yekîneyên Rojhilatê Kurdistan) i.e. "Eastern Kurdistan Units". Now of course it is not Wikipedia's place to decide whether this region should be seen as "Eastern Kurdistan" or "northwestern Iran" etc, only to note that it is also referred to as such by a notable percentage of Kurds within a wider conception of a Greater Kurdistan with 4 regions (based on cardinal directions). This helps inform the reader that when someone says "Eastern Kurdistan", they mean this area the article is about. Redthoreau -- ( talk) 05:52, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
There are also followers of the mainstream Imam (Twelver) Shi'ite Islam among the Kurds, particularly in and around the cities of Kirmanshah, Kangawar, Hamadan, Qurva, and Bijar in southern and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.
Your partial and selective quote was misleading. Why did you remove the word southern and the other parts from the quote? One of the sources you provided above, published by The Canadian Center of Science and Education (CCSE), is a predatory journal (see here [2]) and thus not reliable. Your argument on that we should use the term because PJAK –a separatist group designated as terrorist by four countries– does, is implying and affirming that it is a politically-charged term. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) is clear enough. No academic source in geography uses this term. Pahlevun ( talk) 20:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
-- HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:20, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I believe User:Pahlevun is not neutral on this artucle. In my opinion, he should be banned from editing Kurdish articles. Just a look at his recent " militant" edits reveals everything. Lexy iris ( talk) 19:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun, Redthoreau, Konli17, HistoryofIran, Paradise Chronicle, and Lexy iris: There was a request at WP:RFPP that this article be full-protected because of edit warring. I am not inclined to lock the page right now, but I am concerned, because I see all of you reverting each other, and none of you discussing the content here at the talk page - even though you often tell the other person to use the talk page. Take your own advice. Start a discussion about the issues you differ over. Be sure to cite references, or links to previous discussion. Focus on the content, not on what you think is the other editor’s motivation. (Lexy iris, this means you.) If you folks can stop edit warring and actually discuss, it won’t be necessary to lock the page. It’s up to you. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Editors are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kurds#RFC: Iranian ethnic group. Levivich ( talk) 00:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Iranian Kurdistan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1Auto-archiving period: 120 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 2006 March 24. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the topics of Kurds and Kurdistan, broadly construed, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
hi. its a mistake about kurdish areas in the shown map. for example northern and centeral parts of ilam provience are completly krdish area with language and culture and they are not lur areas.
Iranian Kurdistan or Eastern Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê), is an unofficial name for the Western parts of Iran predominantly inhabited by Kurds and borders the Kurdish regions of Iraq and Turkey. It includes Kurdistan Province, Kermanshah Province,Ilam province and parts of West Azerbaijan Province.
Hi
Paradise Chronicle, I see that you have added a source to the lead
[1]. The content these sources are used to support, previously said Kurds generally consider northwestern Iran to be one of the four parts of a Greater Kurdistan, which also includes parts of southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Syria (Western Kurdistan) and northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan).
and on the grounds that "
Source isn't Kurdish" it was changed to the current version. As I can see, the book by Ofra Bengio on page one only says Kurds inhabit in four countries (Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syra) which is a different thing from this article. Would you please elaborate on this and the exact quote that says so? The other source, that you added, is the German book Kurden heute by Fadel Khalil published by Europaverlag in 1992. Is it a scholarly source? Has Fadel Khalil expertise or academic credentials on the subject, or is Europaverlag a reputable publisher? I think this article needs to use reputable sources only and be written with an inclusive perspective covering subjects like economy, education, climate, culture, sports, etc., but now we have a political article that needs a lot of work.
Pahlevun (
talk)
18:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Paradise Chronicle: Thank you for your elaboration, now it is clear that using the terms northern/southern/eastern/western Kurdistan in the article is a matter of editorial taste and should not be attributed to the sources cited. I checked the 'Kurdistan (Arabic: Kurdestan), Iran–Iraq–Syria–Turkey' entry of Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names, and therefore propose the following to replace the sentence:
It is the part of Kurdistan, a larger geographical area, that extends over Iranian soil and whose other areas are located in Turkey ( Turkish Kurdistan), Iraq (the autonomous Kurdistan Region) and Syria ( Syrian Kurdistan).
— Everett-Heath, John (2020), "Kurdistan", Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names (5th ed.), Oxford University Press, doi: 10.1093/acref/9780191905636.001.0001, ISBN 9780191905636,'Land of the Kurds', a large geographical area that extends mainly over Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, and slightly into Syria. Despite never having been united under a single ruler nor acquiring the status of a nation-state, the Kurds, numbering some 25 million, have been able to maintain a distinct sense of identity and culture for at least the last 2,000 years; they do not, however, share a common language or religion.
Having published in 2020, the source does not use the terms with cardinal directions (which are mostly associated with Kurdish nationalists), nor has an entry for them. The Oxford book has also an entry with less words for 'Kordestan, Iran': "A province with the Persian name ‘Land of the Kurds’, a geographical region named after the Kurds. Only Iran has a province so-named. See Kurdistan." Do you agree with this replacement? Pahlevun ( talk) 16:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
A number of reliable sources can be located displaying that an alternative name for this area is “Eastern Kurdistan.” A quick search shows that the --> “ Iranian Kurdistan” entry for the UNPO (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization) states “Iranian Kurdistan, also known as eastern Kurdistan.” In addition, on page 133 of The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. By Mehrdad R. Izady. (1992). a passage reads “... and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.” In addition, there are academic journal articles such as:
Moreover, the Iranian Government is facing an armed insurgency from the Kurdistan Free Life Party, whose male armed wing is called the YRK (Yekîneyên Rojhilatê Kurdistan) i.e. "Eastern Kurdistan Units". Now of course it is not Wikipedia's place to decide whether this region should be seen as "Eastern Kurdistan" or "northwestern Iran" etc, only to note that it is also referred to as such by a notable percentage of Kurds within a wider conception of a Greater Kurdistan with 4 regions (based on cardinal directions). This helps inform the reader that when someone says "Eastern Kurdistan", they mean this area the article is about. Redthoreau -- ( talk) 05:52, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
There are also followers of the mainstream Imam (Twelver) Shi'ite Islam among the Kurds, particularly in and around the cities of Kirmanshah, Kangawar, Hamadan, Qurva, and Bijar in southern and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.
Your partial and selective quote was misleading. Why did you remove the word southern and the other parts from the quote? One of the sources you provided above, published by The Canadian Center of Science and Education (CCSE), is a predatory journal (see here [2]) and thus not reliable. Your argument on that we should use the term because PJAK –a separatist group designated as terrorist by four countries– does, is implying and affirming that it is a politically-charged term. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) is clear enough. No academic source in geography uses this term. Pahlevun ( talk) 20:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
-- HistoryofIran ( talk) 20:20, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I believe User:Pahlevun is not neutral on this artucle. In my opinion, he should be banned from editing Kurdish articles. Just a look at his recent " militant" edits reveals everything. Lexy iris ( talk) 19:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Pahlevun, Redthoreau, Konli17, HistoryofIran, Paradise Chronicle, and Lexy iris: There was a request at WP:RFPP that this article be full-protected because of edit warring. I am not inclined to lock the page right now, but I am concerned, because I see all of you reverting each other, and none of you discussing the content here at the talk page - even though you often tell the other person to use the talk page. Take your own advice. Start a discussion about the issues you differ over. Be sure to cite references, or links to previous discussion. Focus on the content, not on what you think is the other editor’s motivation. (Lexy iris, this means you.) If you folks can stop edit warring and actually discuss, it won’t be necessary to lock the page. It’s up to you. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Editors are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kurds#RFC: Iranian ethnic group. Levivich ( talk) 00:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)