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why delete this page when there are other pages that follow suit in much the same way (GNU/Linux vs Linux naming controversy being a prime example). I vote to instead mark it as a stub for expanding. User:Genjix
I agree. I found the article to be enlightening and informative, so I'm not sure why we'd want to get rid of it. Can someone explain the rationale behind wanting it deleted? It's a long enough piece that it doesn't fit into the Iran page. Matt Deres 20:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Whatever the case, the first poster (me) has no cleaned it up and removed the warnings. User:Genjix
==Rename?== Just got to jump in here. sorry this is my first time editing or adding anything to wikipedia. BUT the the map of Iran.jpg is said to originate in 200 bc? From London? I believe leaving this graphic on any page in wikipedia is wrong unless It it is described as a copy/forgery or am I missing a point here?
Name is confusing and probably not compliant with naming conventions. I suggest a rename to Iran/Persia naming controversy, which is more concise and makes more sense. -- Wikiacc (talk) 13:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
The British Museum have a small exhibition on Iran before Islam at present (Summer 2005) and the information board states that the official external name of the country was changed from Persia to Iran in 1935 (the latter being the internal name all along) - I am paraphrasing slightly.
I think that this can be accepted as reasonably authoritative (g). Jackiespeel 20:55, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Everything I have read in the articles agrees with that, and also adds: 1) That this was done at the formal request of the then Shah for the international community to stop using 'Persia', and 2) That his son, the next Shah, 20 years later, changed it again, to declare either name equally acceptable. Codex Sinaiticus 03:27, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Wikiacc, that the title should be changed. User:Genjix
This article was nominated for deletion but kept by default of no consensus being reached. See
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/'Iran' or 'Persia'? Which One Should be Called? for the archived discussion --
Francs2000 |
Talk
15:34, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Iran was always used by the locals to refer to the land (hence the word LAND) of Persians (Parsi's), in similar fashion to United Kingdom being referred to as the land/kingdom of the British people. The people of Iran have always been known as Parsi's (english translation being Persian) since the nomadic roots. However, during the islamic conquest, the Arabs attempt to take out the letter P from the Persian alphabet resulted in most people referring to Parsi as Farsi. To sum everything, Iran is the name for the land of Persians/Aryans. In the same respect as the people of UK being referred to as British people, the People of Iran should be referred to as Persians. This is the only geographic and historically correct term. Infact, the term Iranian is incorrect in many ways although ignorantly being used. Some similar examples to help you grasp this fact, are Dutch people from the Netherland (You wouldn't call the Netherlandis or Hollandians), the British etc. -- Sina7 00:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This page needs a bit of improvement in copyediting...and could stand to use a clear picture on the current status of the debate. -- Dpr 05:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
_ _ I redid the former lead section, not only to conform to MoS, but for NPoV purposes: it is wildly inappropriate to construe our love for lk'g terms to articles as requiring or even permitting lk'g the first refs to Iran, Iranian, Persia, etc, in this article to articles we would normally lk them to: this is an article abt whether those patterns of lk'g in some sense reflect bad usage! For purposes of the new one-'graph lead section, they are just words. The charitable interpretation of what i eliminated is that an editor made the honest mistake of too rigidly applying routine practices beyond their reasonable scope. (While i have no evidence for the uncharitable intrepretation -- an intentional attempt to tilt the "debate" by begging the question -- IMO the editor responsible should forgo indignation over any false accusations of that intent that anyone may lodge.)
_ _ The new section i added uses, i hope, all those terms, unpiped, to demonstrate a common-sense (i.e., unresearched) account of the state that is in some way subject to someone's hope of a change. (Sorry for my vagueness; haven't read & won't read the debate! Language mostly changes by itself, not by debate, and they'll know it (even) in Peoria when any change has occurred.) I may not have gotten the details right, but (even the begging of the question aside) the article looks silly discussing what the usage should be without documenting what usage is.
_ _ I also added near the end of
the article some excessive material from the Dab page
Persia, which someone tried to turn into a mini-article; it is probably mostly suitable here.
--
Jerzy•
t
16:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I know that "Persian" rugs are the words commonly used to describe rugs from that region. I don't believe it should be changed to Iranian rugs because there are many other Persian rugs from Pakistan and other countries. It is very hard to distinguish the differences in the making of rugs from different countries (unless someone would like to tell me the differences, I would be happy to hear them). I own at least 5, and I don't know which country they are from, nor do I care, I just know they are from the Persian/Iranian region, so I call them Persian rugs, though I have Iranian ancestry. They should be called Persian rugs, not Iranian rugs (and Persian rugs sounds better as well). HaLoGuY007 21:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is highly bogus. as far as i know, there is no serious dispute over the name of iran. no one proposes calling it "persia". i also don't think there is any real dispute over the language terms "persian" or "farsi" (nb i am a linguistics grad student). both terms are in common use and are equivalent. this article looks like original research by someone.
Benwing 04:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of issues with the language section. Could someone knowledge comment on them?:
the official English name of the language is "Persian", and not "Farsi"
Professors of the language frequently rebuke those who do not refer to the language as Persian in English.
Ashmoo 23:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Ashmoo, you are incorrect: Link to the following: http://heritage.chn.ir/en/Article/?id=88
"In English, however, this language has always been known as “Persian” (‘Persane’ in French and ‘Persisch’ in German’). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use ‘Farsi’ to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries.
In the West when one speaks of ‘Persian Language’, people can immediately connect it with several famous aspects of that culture and history such as Persian Gulf, Persian Carpet, Persian food, Persian poetry, Persian cat, etc. But “Farsi” is void of such link which is only obvious for people in Persia (Iran) and a few other nations in the Middle East.
The Academy of the Persian Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word “Farsi” instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The first paragraph of the pronouncement states: “PERSIAN has been used in a variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ is to negate this established important precedence. Changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may well be the intention of some Farsi users…”
Fortunately 'all International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g. VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use “Persian Service”, in lieu of the incorrect “Farsi Service.” That is also the case for the American Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, and several American and European notable universities.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.60.168 ( talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Jonsafari, I undid your edit. You had this " Pejman Akbarzadeh feels that referring to Persian as Farsi is incorrect within English, and uses an analogy of requesting that the German language be called Deutsch by those who speak English"
This is incorrect. It is not an opinion by Pejman. He merely wrote the article. By using "feels" you are lowering the this statement from a statement of fact to an opinion. This is factual. See above paragraphs on the info regarding The Academy of the Persian language and Literature which is the controlling body for the language. This is similar to the L'Académie française, for the French Language.
Parthian, you ignored previous talk concerning this matter. See above. The Academy of the Persian language and Literature, the controlling body, issued that Persian is the correct designation of the English name for the language. This is supported by the American Association of Teachers of Persian, the Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, etc. I am reverting your edit and adding the link to the announcement of the Academy. Magemirlen ( talk) 14:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Why is the image Image:Yek toman qajar.jpg keep getting deleted?
It is essential in my view that it be used in the article.
The image demonstrates that the name "Iran" was in official use even before 1935, despite the name "Persia".
Thanks.-- Zereshk 00:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Was Iran ever called by any other name except Iran by its inhabitants? The names that other nations used to call Iran is irrelevant! In the west people cannot pronounce my name so they call me Kevin! What is my name then? Just because they cannot pronounce my name am I Kevin? Kiumars
--( Aytakin) | Talk 17:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe the title of the map is misleading or false. It states it originates from the year 200BC by a chap called Eratosthenes. On viewing the map it appears from the lettering and terminology to be more or less late last century and printed in London ? Should it not be titled correctly in a subject that is obviously important to many people? ~~Signed J.Cornish~~
(This was a question that was posted on the actual article. I moved it here.)
i do not have access to kasravi's books. but i remember a discussion on this matter and i guess it was claimed that he was supportive of the name Iran. is there anyone who can update my knowledge on this?-- Xashaiar ( talk) 06:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
There are quite a lot of uses of the name "Iran" in English literature starting about 1800. McKay ( talk) 05:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest to supplement People of Greece, Armenia, Finland, Albania, Egypt, Algeria, India, Japan and China call their countries, respectively Elláda, Hayastan, Suomi, Shqipëria, Misr (or Masr), al-Jaza'ir, Bharat or Hindustan, Nippon or Nihon, and Zhōnggúo or Chung-kuo in their respective languages with Korea=Hanguk and Georgia=Sakartvelo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.68.203.242 ( talk) 20:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no reason for this deletion. The source, Hooman Majd, is notable author and there is no reason to delete his arguement. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 18:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I think it's better to have two separate pages (instead of merging this one with name of Iran which focuses on the the word "Iran" and its historical usage among Iranians). Alefbe ( talk) 18:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It's better to move this page to Names of Iran (and expand it to also include other historical names in other languages, including Arabic and Ottoman Turkish). Alefbe ( talk) 20:40, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
why delete this page when there are other pages that follow suit in much the same way (GNU/Linux vs Linux naming controversy being a prime example). I vote to instead mark it as a stub for expanding. User:Genjix
I agree. I found the article to be enlightening and informative, so I'm not sure why we'd want to get rid of it. Can someone explain the rationale behind wanting it deleted? It's a long enough piece that it doesn't fit into the Iran page. Matt Deres 20:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Whatever the case, the first poster (me) has no cleaned it up and removed the warnings. User:Genjix
==Rename?== Just got to jump in here. sorry this is my first time editing or adding anything to wikipedia. BUT the the map of Iran.jpg is said to originate in 200 bc? From London? I believe leaving this graphic on any page in wikipedia is wrong unless It it is described as a copy/forgery or am I missing a point here?
Name is confusing and probably not compliant with naming conventions. I suggest a rename to Iran/Persia naming controversy, which is more concise and makes more sense. -- Wikiacc (talk) 13:20, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
The British Museum have a small exhibition on Iran before Islam at present (Summer 2005) and the information board states that the official external name of the country was changed from Persia to Iran in 1935 (the latter being the internal name all along) - I am paraphrasing slightly.
I think that this can be accepted as reasonably authoritative (g). Jackiespeel 20:55, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Everything I have read in the articles agrees with that, and also adds: 1) That this was done at the formal request of the then Shah for the international community to stop using 'Persia', and 2) That his son, the next Shah, 20 years later, changed it again, to declare either name equally acceptable. Codex Sinaiticus 03:27, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Wikiacc, that the title should be changed. User:Genjix
This article was nominated for deletion but kept by default of no consensus being reached. See
Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/'Iran' or 'Persia'? Which One Should be Called? for the archived discussion --
Francs2000 |
Talk
15:34, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Iran was always used by the locals to refer to the land (hence the word LAND) of Persians (Parsi's), in similar fashion to United Kingdom being referred to as the land/kingdom of the British people. The people of Iran have always been known as Parsi's (english translation being Persian) since the nomadic roots. However, during the islamic conquest, the Arabs attempt to take out the letter P from the Persian alphabet resulted in most people referring to Parsi as Farsi. To sum everything, Iran is the name for the land of Persians/Aryans. In the same respect as the people of UK being referred to as British people, the People of Iran should be referred to as Persians. This is the only geographic and historically correct term. Infact, the term Iranian is incorrect in many ways although ignorantly being used. Some similar examples to help you grasp this fact, are Dutch people from the Netherland (You wouldn't call the Netherlandis or Hollandians), the British etc. -- Sina7 00:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This page needs a bit of improvement in copyediting...and could stand to use a clear picture on the current status of the debate. -- Dpr 05:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
_ _ I redid the former lead section, not only to conform to MoS, but for NPoV purposes: it is wildly inappropriate to construe our love for lk'g terms to articles as requiring or even permitting lk'g the first refs to Iran, Iranian, Persia, etc, in this article to articles we would normally lk them to: this is an article abt whether those patterns of lk'g in some sense reflect bad usage! For purposes of the new one-'graph lead section, they are just words. The charitable interpretation of what i eliminated is that an editor made the honest mistake of too rigidly applying routine practices beyond their reasonable scope. (While i have no evidence for the uncharitable intrepretation -- an intentional attempt to tilt the "debate" by begging the question -- IMO the editor responsible should forgo indignation over any false accusations of that intent that anyone may lodge.)
_ _ The new section i added uses, i hope, all those terms, unpiped, to demonstrate a common-sense (i.e., unresearched) account of the state that is in some way subject to someone's hope of a change. (Sorry for my vagueness; haven't read & won't read the debate! Language mostly changes by itself, not by debate, and they'll know it (even) in Peoria when any change has occurred.) I may not have gotten the details right, but (even the begging of the question aside) the article looks silly discussing what the usage should be without documenting what usage is.
_ _ I also added near the end of
the article some excessive material from the Dab page
Persia, which someone tried to turn into a mini-article; it is probably mostly suitable here.
--
Jerzy•
t
16:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
I know that "Persian" rugs are the words commonly used to describe rugs from that region. I don't believe it should be changed to Iranian rugs because there are many other Persian rugs from Pakistan and other countries. It is very hard to distinguish the differences in the making of rugs from different countries (unless someone would like to tell me the differences, I would be happy to hear them). I own at least 5, and I don't know which country they are from, nor do I care, I just know they are from the Persian/Iranian region, so I call them Persian rugs, though I have Iranian ancestry. They should be called Persian rugs, not Iranian rugs (and Persian rugs sounds better as well). HaLoGuY007 21:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
this article is highly bogus. as far as i know, there is no serious dispute over the name of iran. no one proposes calling it "persia". i also don't think there is any real dispute over the language terms "persian" or "farsi" (nb i am a linguistics grad student). both terms are in common use and are equivalent. this article looks like original research by someone.
Benwing 04:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of issues with the language section. Could someone knowledge comment on them?:
the official English name of the language is "Persian", and not "Farsi"
Professors of the language frequently rebuke those who do not refer to the language as Persian in English.
Ashmoo 23:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Ashmoo, you are incorrect: Link to the following: http://heritage.chn.ir/en/Article/?id=88
"In English, however, this language has always been known as “Persian” (‘Persane’ in French and ‘Persisch’ in German’). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use ‘Farsi’ to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries.
In the West when one speaks of ‘Persian Language’, people can immediately connect it with several famous aspects of that culture and history such as Persian Gulf, Persian Carpet, Persian food, Persian poetry, Persian cat, etc. But “Farsi” is void of such link which is only obvious for people in Persia (Iran) and a few other nations in the Middle East.
The Academy of the Persian Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word “Farsi” instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The first paragraph of the pronouncement states: “PERSIAN has been used in a variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ is to negate this established important precedence. Changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may well be the intention of some Farsi users…”
Fortunately 'all International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g. VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use “Persian Service”, in lieu of the incorrect “Farsi Service.” That is also the case for the American Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, and several American and European notable universities.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.60.168 ( talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Jonsafari, I undid your edit. You had this " Pejman Akbarzadeh feels that referring to Persian as Farsi is incorrect within English, and uses an analogy of requesting that the German language be called Deutsch by those who speak English"
This is incorrect. It is not an opinion by Pejman. He merely wrote the article. By using "feels" you are lowering the this statement from a statement of fact to an opinion. This is factual. See above paragraphs on the info regarding The Academy of the Persian language and Literature which is the controlling body for the language. This is similar to the L'Académie française, for the French Language.
Parthian, you ignored previous talk concerning this matter. See above. The Academy of the Persian language and Literature, the controlling body, issued that Persian is the correct designation of the English name for the language. This is supported by the American Association of Teachers of Persian, the Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, etc. I am reverting your edit and adding the link to the announcement of the Academy. Magemirlen ( talk) 14:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Why is the image Image:Yek toman qajar.jpg keep getting deleted?
It is essential in my view that it be used in the article.
The image demonstrates that the name "Iran" was in official use even before 1935, despite the name "Persia".
Thanks.-- Zereshk 00:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Was Iran ever called by any other name except Iran by its inhabitants? The names that other nations used to call Iran is irrelevant! In the west people cannot pronounce my name so they call me Kevin! What is my name then? Just because they cannot pronounce my name am I Kevin? Kiumars
--( Aytakin) | Talk 17:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe the title of the map is misleading or false. It states it originates from the year 200BC by a chap called Eratosthenes. On viewing the map it appears from the lettering and terminology to be more or less late last century and printed in London ? Should it not be titled correctly in a subject that is obviously important to many people? ~~Signed J.Cornish~~
(This was a question that was posted on the actual article. I moved it here.)
i do not have access to kasravi's books. but i remember a discussion on this matter and i guess it was claimed that he was supportive of the name Iran. is there anyone who can update my knowledge on this?-- Xashaiar ( talk) 06:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
There are quite a lot of uses of the name "Iran" in English literature starting about 1800. McKay ( talk) 05:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest to supplement People of Greece, Armenia, Finland, Albania, Egypt, Algeria, India, Japan and China call their countries, respectively Elláda, Hayastan, Suomi, Shqipëria, Misr (or Masr), al-Jaza'ir, Bharat or Hindustan, Nippon or Nihon, and Zhōnggúo or Chung-kuo in their respective languages with Korea=Hanguk and Georgia=Sakartvelo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.68.203.242 ( talk) 20:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no reason for this deletion. The source, Hooman Majd, is notable author and there is no reason to delete his arguement. -- BoogaLouie ( talk) 18:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I think it's better to have two separate pages (instead of merging this one with name of Iran which focuses on the the word "Iran" and its historical usage among Iranians). Alefbe ( talk) 18:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
It's better to move this page to Names of Iran (and expand it to also include other historical names in other languages, including Arabic and Ottoman Turkish). Alefbe ( talk) 20:40, 16 August 2009 (UTC)